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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Reader mode
TheEyes said:
That would make more sense if they were approaching a completely alien civilization, but they're supposed to be negotiating with magical super-Puritans, so maybe a metal swimsuit wouldn't be the best thing to show up in?
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Well, yes, but she wore a swim suit made of the American flag in 1940s America, so...
 
Darko said:
OL hasn't exactly been in contact with John since he left for Vega
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And the phrase "Becoming a Lord of Order and Chaos might have changed his perspective" is entirely past-tense, it doesn't need him to have had contact, for John to have successfully achieved balance, or for John to have stayed a Lord of either.

Darko said:
He may have absorbed some of Nabus magic, but it may not have been enough to become a Lord of Order.

It's also possible that he ran out of Order magic without the Helmet, or even if he still has some left it may not be enough to be considered a Lord of Order.

He also seemed to be uncomfortable wielding the two magics so he may have gotten rid of all the Order magic in him, he got rid of the Helmet at least.
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All technically possible. Also purely speculative. He "may" have killed himself, he "may" have gotten rid of both Order and Chaos magics and given himself amnesia. It's "also possible" that he worked out a way to portal to Wilson and is currently crashing on Twilight Sparkle's couch.
 
TheMidnightRook said:
It's "also possible" that he worked out a way to portal to Wilson and is currently crashing on Twilight Sparkle's couch.
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I'm assuming that if that is true then he became 'The Thing That Would Not Leave'.

They already had enough problems with Discord running around.

As for the whole balance thing we won't know until we see John again and what he's been up to, though from everything so far I still don't think he managed the whole balance thing, but I could be wrong, he has pulled off some bullshit things before so it may be possible.
 
Otherworld (supplementary, Renegade Option)
1st May
09:11 GMT -6

Luna glances around from the television as I as trot into the living room in equine form. The new… Newer living room has a surfeit of space even for a full family gathering, but she's opted to lie on the floor rather than move a settee into a direction which would allow her to watch the screen. Not that it's much of a sacrifice; with a cleaning staff and science fiction cleaning tools I opted for a decadently fluffy carpet, and it's easily soft enough for comfort.

"We do not believe that We understand the way in which the people of America choose their ruler."

"You and America."

I walk over to stand next to her, then begin the somewhat awkward process of lowering myself onto my belly. Yes, I could just pull in my legs and let Sinestro lower me, but I want practice in my pony form. Downdowndowndown and we have a successful landing! Tuck my legs in a bit…

"We suppose that it is progress that you are merely as ungainly as a drunken adolescent."

"Yes, yes it is." I smile and turn my head towards her. "But remember that every piece of mockery which you throw at me will be thrown back at you when you experiment with bipedalism."

"We are uncertain that We even want to change Our form so. It is less stable, lacks wings, struggles to utilise magic and lacks the physical strength which Our Earth Pony magic provides us."

"Basically all human technology is designed for hands. But, I'm not forcing you. If you don't think you're up to it then you don't think you're up to it."

"An obvious bait."

"Yeah." I smile. "Is it working?"

She rolls her eyes and looks away for a moment, before giving her mane a small toss.

"What do you mean by 'Us and America'?"

"I'm pretty sceptical about how many Americans actually understand how the whole thing works. Most of them probably get the basics, but the actual give and take and lobbying that actually happens to actually effect change… I'm dubious. I don't really understand all of it, and I've been involved at the highest level for over a year."

"Explain it to Us."

"O-. Well, I can't; as I said, I don't understand it. But if you want the basics… Equestria is an autocratic tyranny. When Celestia wants to make a law, change a policy or use executive authority, she doesn't need anyone's permission."

Luna raises her eyebrows.

I raise mine right back.

"Duocratic monarchy. And we are advised by numerous ponies."

"But they can't stop you. The only people who can gainsay the monarchs are the monarchs, which in practice will mean Celestia for a generation or two."

"Yes… Someone must be able to make a final decision."

I squeeze my eyes closed, quietly sniggering.

"Is that..? Not the case here?"

I open my eyes to see Luna regarding me quizzically.

"The problem with America, is that they tried to make the best system possible."

Her eyes narrow. "And that is bad?"

"If you try and make a perfect system as an imperfect being using imperfect beings, things are going to go 'bong' the moment you pull the activation lever. This right here?" I nod at the television as the presenters try to judge the likely outcome of the remaining primary votes. All the ways Knight could lose, basically. None of them are particularly likely. "This is a pre-election election."

"Yes, the two parties are deciding who will be their champion. We understand that much."

"Except that's not it. Each state votes on who they want each party's candidate to be. In some places only members of that party can vote, but in other places anyone can."

"Would the other party not simply try to vote for an unelectable ignoramus, to increase the attractiveness of their own candidate?"

It would explain a lot…

"They might, but there's a risk that person might get elected. The intent -as I understand it- is to increase the chance of getting a candidate with wider appeal. And of course there's an electoral college, which makes things more complicated."

She frowns. "If the system is so complex that it requires a college to teach people how to participate, then We may concur with your assessment."

"No, 'college' in this context means the votes in each state determine where the fixed number of votes of that state go, which are the votes that actually determine the outcome. So you vote for a vote in an election for an election. In fact, given that they also use electors, it's a vote for a vote in an election for a vote in an election."

"I suspect that it is more sensible that you make it sound."

"No, it's like Winter Wrap-Up: pointless, but people have been doing it this way for so long that people don't react rationally to you questioning it."

"What is your intent?"

"I'd like Horne to win, but Knight is such a… Leaf in the wind that I doubt he'll really make things difficult for me."

She nods, though she's frowning. "Did your interview advance his cause? Are those issues… Child-rearing and private armaments, important to the people of America?"

"Ahhh… Sort of. It's…" I take a moment to work out how to explain it. "Virtue signalling."

"Your meaning?"

"Humans are mind-blind. They can't hear one another's thoughts, or truly see the world from one another's perspective. All they can do is observe the behaviours of one another and attempt to decipher the thoughts and intent behind them. Virtue signalling is the process by which humans within a political community show one another what people in that community value. For a pony example: Applejack is honest even when it isn't in her interest to be, and all around her can see this and are reassured that honesty is something she truly values."

"We understand so far."

"And that lesson wouldn't be anything like as effective if she merely said that she valued honesty but constantly lied. She would be labelled as a hypocrite, and when an accusation of hypocrisy sticks it's usually considered a pretty solid refutation of an argument. Which is a fallacy; a person coming up short doesn't prove that they don't value a thing or that the thing shouldn't be valued… But I'm getting off track."

"A consequence of mind-blindness is that all we can judge are appearances. But if that's true, what is the difference between someone who acts in accordance with their deeply-felt beliefs and someone who puts on a show for popularity's sake?"

"Constancy."

I snort with amusement. "Yes. But people have such short memories. Gun ownership and sex education are… Flag issues. Signifying issues. In theory, they show an allegiance to a particular way of seeing the nation. In terms of practicality they're irrelevant. The most conservative president in history couldn't block children's access to sex-related material in a country like America. The most liberal couldn't prevent parents lecturing their children on abstinence-only. The most gun-hating president couldn't recall every gun in circulation and if a gun-lover repealed every restrictive ordinance hardly anyone would take advantage of it because the most practical guns are already legal. A handful of people would buy tanks and artillery pieces to show that they could, and that's about it. Whether Horne or Knight win the election, I doubt that either will change the law relating to either topic much, if at all. Even if they would like to." I snort quietly. "Even if they try to."

"But Knight is signalling that he has a virtue, a set of beliefs. A set that will cause particular demographics to vote for him, even though they'll get little out of it. A set that I don't believe that he actually has, but that won't matter because his new friends aren't going to look back at his previous positions, or will accept that he's seen the light. Knight goes to where people are and tries to fit in. Horne states his case -usually.. not very well- and tries to bring people to him."

"What would they do if they felt it necessary to take a position that none agreed with, as Celestia did when she freed Discord?"

"They fail to pass any legislation for the remainder of their term, and are never elected again."

Luna nods. "We think that We may see a flaw in this system."

"You and Socrates, Luna. You and Socrates."
 
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Mr Zoat said:
1st May
09:11 GMT -6

Luna glances around from the television as I as trot into the living room in equine form. The new… Newer living room has a surfeit of space even for a full family gathering, but she's opted to lie on the floor rather than move a settee into a direction which would allow her to watch the screen. Not that it's much of a sacrifice; with a cleaning staff and science fiction cleaning tools I opted for a decadently fluffy carpet, and it's easily soft enough for comfort.
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Sounds comfy. If they weren't ponified right now, I'd say it's a great place for some sweet horizontal boogie.

"We do not believe that We understand the way in which the people of America choose their ruler."

"You and America."
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Truth in television, so to speak, from what I hear. It's bad enough that many people simply can't be bothered to play the Grand Game...

I walk over to stand next to her, then begin the somewhat awkward process of lowering myself onto my belly. Yes, I could just pull in my legs and let Sinestro lower me, but I want practice in my pony form. Downdowndowndown and we have a successful landing! Tuck my legs in a bit…

"We suppose that it is progress that you are merely as ungainly as a drunken adolescent."
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And he's improving his pony mobility. Good to see him trying. Be strong! Think of the plot! ;) Boy, this site needs a better 'nudge-nudge-winl-wink' type smiley. Or maybe a Groucho Marx eyebrow waggle...

"Yes, yes it is." I smile and turn my head towards her. "But remember that every piece of mockery which you throw at me will be thrown back at you when you experiment with bipedalism."

"We are uncertain that We even want to change Our form so. It is less stable, lacks wings, struggles to utilise magic and lacks the physical strength which Our Earth Pony magic provides us."
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But there's still that hint of curiosity, isn't there? What it feels like to walk on two legs, to have hands to manipulate objects rather than telekinesis, other naughty things...

"Basically all human technology is designed for hands. But, I'm not forcing you. If you don't think you're up to it then you don't think you're up to it."

"An obvious bait."
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She sees what you're doing, Grayven...

"Yeah." I smile. "Is it working?"

She rolls her eyes and looks away for a moment, before giving her mane a small toss.
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And I think she enjoys it.

"What do you mean by 'Us and America'?"

"I'm pretty sceptical about how many Americans actually understand how the whole things works. Most of them probably get the basics, but the actual give and take and lobbying that actually happens to actually affect change… I'm dubious. I don't really understand all of it, and I've been involved at the highest level for over a year."
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o_O To be honest, I have to wonder what the founding government of the time were thinking when they developed this system. Did they just enjoy arguing over tiny matters or something?

"Explain it to Us."

"O-. Well, I can't; as I said, I don't understand it. But if you want the basics… Equestria is an autocratic tyranny. When Celestia wants to make a law, change a policy or use executive authority, she doesn't need anyone's permission."
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And the country is small enough, Celestia knowledgable and experienced enough, that that works. And she can still make mistakes...

Luna raises her eyebrows.

I raise mine right back.

"Duocratic monarchy. And we are advised by numerous ponies."
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Though, really, would anyone listen to something you decree without asking Celestia for confirmation? At this point, anyway?

"But they can't stop you. The only person who can gainsay the monarchs are the monarchs, which in practice will mean Celestia for a generation or two."

"Yes… Someone must be able to make a final decision."
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The trick is making that decision with a clear head and heart. A lack of knowledge, a bad day... anything might lead to a decision made in haste.

I squeeze my eyes closed, quietly sniggering.

"Is that..? Not the case here?"
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Oh, boy howdy, here we go...

I open my eyes to see Luna regarding me quizzically.

"The problem with America, is that they tried to make the best system possible."
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A grand experiment... But...

Her eyes narrow. "And that is bad?"

"If you try and make a perfect system as an imperfect being using imperfect beings, things are going to go 'bong' the moment you pull the activation lever. This right here?" I nod at the television as the presenters try to judge the likely outcome of the remaining primary votes. All the ways Knight could lose, basically. None of them are particularly likely. "This is a pre-election election."
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The engines of government are so complex, no-one can repair them... Especially the ones holding the throttle.

"Yes, the two parties are deciding who will be their champion. We understand that much."

"Except that's not it. Each state votes on who they want each party's candidate to be. In some places only members of that party can vote, but in other places anyone can."
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Because each state gets to make that choice? That's more than a little...

"Would the other party not simply try to vote for an unelectable ignoramus, to increase the attractiveness of their own candidate?"

It would explain a lot…
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...Heh, trolling on a national scale. But as Grayven noted last time we saw him, some prospective candidates aren't people you want anywhere near power.

"They might, but there's a risk that person might get elected. The intent -as I understand it- is to increase the chance of getting a candidate with wider appeal. And of course there's an electoral college, which makes things more complicated."

She frowns. "If the system is so complex that it requires a college to teach people how to participate, then We may concur with your assessment."
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:V Ha! Got to love that sense of humour!

"No, 'college' is this context means the votes in each state determine where the fixed number of votes of that state go, which are the votes that actually determine the outcome. So you vote for a vote in an election for an election. In fact, given that they also use electors, it's a vote for a vote in an election for a vote in an election."

"I suspect that it is more sensible that you make it sound."
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Not a chance in hell... Maybe it worked well enough when there were only thirteen colonies drawn together into a nation, but as things expanded.. Well.

"No, it's like Winter Wrap-Up: pointless, but people have been doing it this way for so long that people don't react rationally to you questioning it."

"What is your intent?"

"I'd like Horne to win, but Knight is such a… Leaf in the wind that I doubt he'll really make things difficult for me."
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I suspect she'll understand that metaphor quite well. Knight is a bit if a flag, isn't he? He points where the wind of popular opinion blows.

She nods, though she's frowning. "Did your interview advance his cause? Are those issues… Child-rearing and private armaments, important to the people of America?"

"Ahhh… Sort of. It's…" I take a moment to work out how to explain it. "Virtue signalling."
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Ooh, that's gonna cause arguments somewhere...

"Your meaning?"

"Humans are mind-blind. They can't hear one another's thoughts, or truly see the world from one another's perspective. All they can do is observe the behaviours of one another and attempt to decipher the thoughts and intent behind them. Virtue signalling is the process by which humans within a political community show one another what people in that community value. For a pony example: Applejack is honest even when it isn't in her interest to be, and all around her can see this and are reassured that honesty is something she truly values."
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Yeah, humanity is... If I were designing a species, I would not have used some of the traits nature gave us...

"We understand so far."

"And that lesson wouldn't be anything like as affective if she merely said that she valued honesty but constantly lied. She would be labelled as a hypocrite, and when an accusation of hypocrisy sticks it's usually considered a pretty solid refutation of an argument. Which is a fallacy; a person coming up short doesn't prove that they don't value a thing or that the thing shouldn't be valued… But I'm getting off track."
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And people can change, but other people's memories of them might not. "But you fuck one goat..." and all that.

"A consequence of mind-blindness is that all we can judge are appearances. But if that's true, what is the difference between someone who acts in accordance with their deeply-felt believes and someone who puts on a show for popularity's sake?"

"Constancy."
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The problem is remembering someone's position. These days, it's a little easier - Nothing is forgotten on the Internet - but...

I snort with amusement. "Yes. But people have such short memories. Gun ownership and sex education are… Flag issues. Signifying issues. In theory, they show an allegiance to a particular way of seeing the nation. In terms of practicality they're irrelevant. The most conservative president in history couldn't block children's access to sex-related material in a country like America. The most liberal couldn't prevent parents lecturing their children on abstinence-only. The most gun-hating president couldn't recall every gun in circulation and if a gun-lover repealed every restrictive ordinance hardly anyone would take advantage of it because the most practical guns are already legal. A handful of people would buy tanks and artillery pieces to show that they could, and that's about it. Whether Horne or Knight win the election, I doubt that either will change the law relating to either topic much, if at all. Even if they would like to." I snort quietly. "Even if they try to."
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:rolleyes: God bless America... Where the most important topics are the ones no-one wants soundbites about...

"But Knight is signalling that he has a virtue, a set of beliefs. A set that will cause particular demographics to vote for him, even though they'll get little out of it. A set that I don't believe that he actually has, but that won't matter because his new friends aren't going to look back at his previous positions, or will accept that he's seen the light. Knight goes to where people are and tries to fit in. Horne states his case -usually.. not very well- and tries to bring people to him."

"What would they do if they felt it necessary to take a position that none agreed with, as Celestia did when she freed Discord?"
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And that one question cuts to the heart of the problem.

"They fail to pass any legislation for the remainder of their term, and are never elected again."

Luna nods. "We think that We may see a flaw in this system."

"You and Socrates, Luna. You and Socrates."
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Unfortunately, the people in charge of fixing it... Are the ones who benefit from it being the way it is...

Oh, boy, Mr Zoat... I can see this making for arguments... :oops: I'm not even sure what to say for fear of someone screaming about Rule 8, even though this is completely in-universe for the fic...
But for what it's worth, folks: Extra Credits did a series on American politics that might prove informative. :cool: Please, no arguing?
 
I feel like since it's commenting on the system in place, without discussing the morality behind various stances people take and what stances they 'should' take, it should be fine.

I will be very disappointed if this is too far, but it's not like pre-WTR I came here to read anything that came close to the politics line so I wouldn't know prior incidents of what is and isn't over the line.
 
Vaermina said:
Gonna be honest... This feels dangerously close to the politics line...
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The rule is Current politics, not political systems in the abstract. Especially given that the American political system was designed two hundred years ago, this isn't current, and the issues being debated have been significant talking points for seventy years or more. More to the point, though, the post itself isn't designed to take a specific stance on any issue nor campaign for it.
 
Slayer Anderson said:
The rule is Current politics, not political systems in the abstract. Especially given that the American political system was designed two hundred years ago, this isn't current, and the issues being debated have been significant talking points for seventy years or more. More to the point, though, the post itself isn't designed to take a specific stance on any issue nor campaign for it.
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Yea... I think you missed the last couple paragraphs...
 
Vaermina said:
Yea... I think you missed the last couple paragraphs...
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Or, to put it bluntly, you misread them.

While the term 'virtue signaling' is modern, the practice isn't. Neither are what Grayven terms 'Flag Issues.' Nixon did it during the seventies and Wilson did it during the teens before that. None of that is really modern, nor is it argued for or against, just explicitly mentioned as a part of the political system. The opinions Grayven espouses as to the effectiveness of broad change by sweeping reform of controversial issues aren't actually political, they're cynical. As is the large part of Grayven's criticisms of the American political system. None of it errs significantly towards the either side of the political spectrum, he's just kind of skeptical that anything of significance will be accomplished either way.

But still, that's my take on it and I'm not a mod. If you feel differently, ask for a mod to take a look at the post. As much as discussing contemporary real-world politics is supposed to be off-limits, so is tangential subjects and derails, which this is close to becoming.

The actual discussion should err towards an investigation of whether or not two colorful giant ponies talking about the electoral college is absurdist humor or just cute.
 
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'Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.…'
Winston S Churchill, 11 November 1947
 
Some might argue that that is the entire point of the government being the way it is: nothing on the national level is ever decided on unless an absolute majority of people across various groups agree with it. There are a couple exceptions, but they are usually oversights in the system. Unfortunately, that usually means anything but the military gets the boot.
The founding fathers were huge proponents of state power: all laws and decisions have to be local and done by the state, except in the case of things such as military matters or foreign diplomacy - where a single individual has to take the lead and have basically full control.
These are things that a lot of political campaigns state things about. America's global and military policy are big issues presidents have a lot of say in.

Basically, some people view America's lack of decision making as a nonissue. And besides, some presidents have certainly done things neither side agrees with, and still remain fairly popular.
 
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Do we know what Luna's human shape would look like, anyway? Or what changes Sunset's went through after becoming an Alicorn?

Transparent deflection is transparent.
 
Mquz said:
The founding fathers were huge proponents of state power: all laws and decisions have to be local and done by the state, except in the case of things such as military matters or foreign diplomacy - where a single individual has to take the lead and have basically full control.
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This confused me for a moment until I realised that in America 'state' power is like 'public' school in Britain; it doesn't mean the nation-state but rather the individual provinces.
AidanMorgan said:
Do we know what Luna's human shape would look like, anyway? Or what changes Sunset's went through after becoming an Alicorn?
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Yes, it came up a little while ago. Sunset is taller and buffer than she was while Luna would look like this.
 
It is interesting to see how Grayven and OL explain topics they bring up seemingly non sequiturs and use it to explain an idea. It helps to slightly confused people so they try harder to think about the topic. It's a nice a brilliant way to do dialogue and one of the better aspects of zoats writing. Here it how people view the world.
 
It Is always so very tedious and frustrating for, say a brit, to try and explain the American political system.
 
Mr Zoat said:
This confused me for a moment until I realised that in America 'state' power is like 'public' school in Britain; it doesn't mean the nation-state but rather the individual provinces.

Yes, it came up a little while ago. Sunset is taller and buffer than she was while Luna would look like this.
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Basically yeah: the idea behind the government here is that it's way too big to govern as a single entity: so States should be more powerful in certain areas than the nation itself. Which is why you get so many laws differing from state to state and why law enforcement also differs. Unlike many other countries, the states were founded by what were at the time considered radically different groups of people who wanted to remain fairly independent. Heck, the Constitution wasn't actually the first US government - that was the articles of confederation, which failed within a span of years due to having even less power. The US government after was created to be just strong enough that it fixed what glaring issues could be found in the Articles.

Of course, states rights being as strong as they were was part of how we got the civil war.
 
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