With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Chojin Patriarch · Jan 1, 2021

Mr Zoat said:
5th July 2012
21:47 GMT

"'Counsellors. I am at your service.'"

"Is it odd that the Marshall is Green rather than Red?"

I suppose it shows that some delegation is expected. Those like P'thet probably consider policing below those of 'Noble' status...

"Not at all. General patrol duties are.. considered appropriate for Green Martians."

"Right, but he's in a command rank. Xan'Xie had Red Manhunters."

Big assumption, OL. Those Reds might well have been in ceremonial positions.

"No, they had Red Honour Guards. Mel'dilo'rn allows Reds to join our Manhunters, but it is more usual for separate units of Reds to protect certain high-value sites. Our society does not bar non-Reds from all positions of authority. Only a few cities take it that far. And now I'm behind. Ah, he's concerned about security threats if we are literally incapable of securing our territory… '…individuals capable of faster than light travel are able to go where they please without prior notification or detection. Despite having been far more sophisticated for most of our history and our physical advantages in nearly every respect, nearly the entirety of in-system defence is left to the humans. Even-."

Because Humanity has the will and the ability to do so. You want a say in your border security, you'll have to participate in defending them properly.

"What's that got to do with Whites?"

"He was asked about Mars security in a general sense. Ah, 'removing existing barrier based on colour would allow for a dramatic expansion of our extra-atmospheric capacity and ameliorate the psychological difficulties which we are known to encounter. Since this would put the population outside the traditional bounds of any city, a change in governance structure would be helpful in preserving clear accountability of the military to the civilian government.'"

In other words: "There's a lot of Whites. Why shouldn't we recruit them to increase our numbers?" And he wants the external military under the purview of the planetary council? Sensible, given the attitude of some prelates...

"How genuine does he sound?"

"He was only recently told about the actions of the Guardians. It has left him with a strong desire to lash out against anything outside of our society. He seeks to control his own desires through regulation and orders, which is a desirable trait."

Understandable. It's a pretty big revelation. I don't doubt more than a few Martians in the know are doing the same.

I nod as the Marshall returns to the waiting area.

"It is now your turn."

And here we go...

"Are you going to be translating for me?"

"No, they will just speak to you."

Quite the concession. Presumably one or two will talk, relaying questions from others...

"Rightoh." I fly to the spot formerly occupied by the Marshall. "Counsellors, I am at your service."

The Red leading the opening questions shifts to a more humanoid shape, though they keep the upper part of their head as-was.

"Please state your name and point of interest."

An interesting visual. Necessary for the ability to vocalise, of course. Still, reminds me of some of J'onn J'onnz' later humanoid forms...

"I am the Illustres of the Orange Lantern Corps. My interests are twofold. Firstly, I am an off-world party who wishes to employ a significant number of Martians from a city which does not wish to allow me to do to. Ideally, I'd like this Counsel to rule that they don't have that authority and.. not grant it to them. Secondly, having uncovered the origin of Martian Neapolitanism and having determined that there's no rational underlying biological basis for the common colour-prejudgements, I have a strong distaste for the ongoing role they play in Martian public life."

I mean, he's not going to be recruiting solely from that one city... But better not to complicate matters at this stage.

"'Strong distaste'?"

"I've had contact with species where different subdivisions of that species have widely different physical traits. There, assigning different rights and responsibilities to each group is entirely rational. However, in the Martian case the only effect that I've been able to isolate is that Reds are slightly more psychologically resilient, and even that can be overcome with training. As such, I have concluded that the basis of Neapolitanism is biased prejudgement, and as such it is immoral."

Species like the Clickers, of course. Or the Spider Guild...

"Your distaste comes from your moral convictions?"

I shrug. "There are many injustices in the universe. If our planets weren't neighbours and it didn't directly affect a friend of mine, it probably wouldn't bother me as much. Though I've.. sometimes considered that morals are a built-in way of forcing us to consider the long term collective good rather than just the short term personal advantage. The policy of continuing to oppress Whites -as some cities are doing- harms them and doesn't help anyone."

And harming them will make them want to harm the ones doing it... Violently.

"How well do you understand Martian society?"

"Not all that well. Usually, I'd just have my ring download a database, but it isn't compatible with Martian telepathic data storage devices. And M'gann's rather gone native, so… Only ever really explained it in the broadest terms. The first time I even heard Karmang's name was from a member of the Hyperclan, and I still don't truly understand how your reverence for him has shaped your civilisation. Prelate P'thet mentioned that she considered it appropriate that Reds occupy all positions of authority because all of his acolytes were Red."

Which we know to largely be historical coverups, after all. I suppose, in those early days as they found their feet after the Guardian's meddling, influential personalities would naturally play a part...

I shrug.

"But even one as.. devout as she could not point to a commandment from Karmang that non-Reds be excluded, or any record of his justification for choosing Red acolytes. Without the ability to question Karmang personally, I cannot accept the status quo as correct, even within a Martian framework. And there is still no canonical justification for distinguishing between Greens and Whites."

Besides population density, in which case the Whites would have taken priority...

"And outside of that framework?"

"Karmang's just some dead guy, and I don't really care what he said or did."

...It's probably a good thing he can't pick up the no doubt very loud telepathic exclamations he provoked with that little statement...

The fact that Martians aren't big on facial expressions probably explains why me saying 'Jesus is just some dead guy' to the College of Cardinals doesn't get more of a response. Or maybe not. The very fact that J'emm was as moderate as he was when we first met might indicate that this shift has been a while coming. That's the problem with being an outsider in a situation like this: with the best will in the world you just can't tell why what's happening is happening.

So P'thet and those like her may well be a very vocal minority... Isn't that always the way?

"Thank you, Illustres. You will be recalled presently."

I nod, and drift back to my position out of the limelight as one of the Whites move forwards.

Is it wrong to hope that one of the White planning to speak is Karmang in disguise? If only so we get to see the reactions of the Prelates to his continued existence?

"Well?"

S'yrra shifts her head into a far closer likeness of the human head. Eyebrows, short hair, eyes with discrete irises and a nose. Once her skin has settled on a form she takes a moment to test its range of movement with the reshaped muscles, take a deep breath in and then lets it out.

'My, these human faces have some unusually delightful muscles...'

"You communicated your point clearly and effectively."

"Not going to say anything about the 'some dead guy' line?"

Heh. I bet he was hoping to rattle a few cages, so to speak, with that line. He seemed almost disappointed.

"We don't expect aliens to share our reverence."

"On that note, I asked P'thet about necromancy."

"Necromancy?"

Oh, boy. Good thing you have that human face, it's going to be a priceless image...

"Communicating with the dead. If Karmang ended up in some sort of afterlife then it should be possible to reach him. If he reincarnated then we're out of luck."

"Reach..? Speak with… Karmang?"

Come now, S'yrra, you're honestly surprised? You should realise by now that Humans are Bullshit...

"Apparently, Mars doesn't have a necromantic tradition. Which seems odd to me, because simple necromancy is among the oldest recorded forms of human magic."

"That-. I have not studied magic enough to know if that is possible for us."

Then again, what even happens to Martian minds when they die? There's no grand repository of uploads of dying Martians' minds, after all. I suppose those who are aware of impending mortality can share their knowledge with trusted friends so it's not lost...

"I can get a necromancer. In Atlantis it's not a heavily restricted field."

"You propose-? I will need to speak with Prelate J'emm about this."

**Seriously, my lord, Humans are insane!** Man, imagine if he tried, and succeeded... I mean, we know he can't because Karmang's not dead, but they don;t know that...

So, I expect the White Martians will have their say tomorrow. These little political scenes are always nice breathers, with lots of fun character conversation...

Handlewithcare · Jan 1, 2021

"I would like to call as my witness...SPACE JESUS!"

shocked gasps, dramatic zoom

Darko · Jan 1, 2021

Chojin Patriarch said:
Which we know to largely be historical coverups, after all.

Actually his first students were Reds, and he trained them because they felt the most like the Burners, so he may have been more comfortable with them.

Chojin Patriarch said:
...It's probably a good thing he can't pick up the no doubt very loud telepathic exclamations he provoked with that little statement...

Depends on how much they actually revere Karmang.

Yeah that bitch Prelate was a zealot, but these guys may be more moderate.

Politicians often times pay lip service to divine figures, so maybe the same is true on Mars.

Chojin Patriarch said:
So P'thet and those like her may well be a very vocal minority... Isn't that always the way?

And yet somehow they can have a lot of power.

Chojin Patriarch said:
Come now, S'yrra, you're honestly surprised? You should realise by now that Humans are Bullshit...

She hasn't dealt with them all that much so that hasn't settled in.

Chojin Patriarch said:
Then again, what even happens to Martian minds when they die? There's no grand repository of uploads of dying Martians' minds, after all. I suppose those who are aware of impending mortality can share their knowledge with trusted friends so it's not lost...

The only time I remember a Martian afterlife was in the 2018 Lucifer comic.

Lucifer was going to various afterlives and dimensions to find a place where his baby mama could reside in and one of those places was the Martian afterlife.

It did not go well when the resident god insulted him.

Though the only places where he didn't cause chaos, suffering, or humiliation was in the Green, who told him flesh and blood beings may not reside with them, but were otherwise polite, and when he went to Baron Samedi, who politely told him his afterlife isn't suited for his ex girlfriend.

And there was the Hindu afterlife where he had to swim through a pool of liquid nothingness to have a meeting with a god, but otherwise was an okay meeting.

Chojin Patriarch said:
These little political scenes are always nice breathers, with lots of fun character conversation...

I never thought I'd see the day where someone said that politics was fun.

Usually that's only the case if SNL, Colbert, or John Oliver decide to make fun of it.

Agent Orange · Jan 1, 2021

Mr Zoat said:
"Karmang's just some dead guy, and I don't really care what he said or did

Is he trying to make things harder for himself? There's time and place for honesty. Was this supposed to win him friends in the presumably 99% Red Council? He wants those Whites allowed to leave and work for him right?

Mr Zoat · Jan 1, 2021

Darko said:
missing an ' in this.
'to do it'
'moves'

Thank you, corrected

Nioz · Jan 1, 2021

Mr Zoat said:
"I can get a necromancer. In Atlantis it's not a heavily restricted field."

"You propose-? I will need to speak with Prelate J'emm about this."

Muahahaha!!! Myeeeees, OL, seeing you casually upend all of Martian religio-societal paradigms with just a few words is an amazingly delicious treat!

Agent Orange said:
Is he trying to make things harder for himself? There's time and place for honesty. Was this supposed to win him friends in the presumably 99% Red Council? He wants those Whites allowed to leave and work for him right?

I believe OL is setting up a situation where the Council's outrage and need to base their justification on something that will shut OL up will drive them to accept his proposal. Only, you know, Karmang likely isn't dead.

EDIT: But OL doesn't know thag in this worldline.

theaceoffire · Jan 1, 2021

I think I remember him trying to bring people back from the dead earlier in the story, and having something on the other side trying to sneak through in the process. I'm not sure necromancy's a valid process to pursue anymore depending on how many things on the other side are waiting to jump on it.

Chaoswind · Jan 1, 2021

Mr Zoat said:
"I can get a necromancer. In Atlantis it's not a heavily restricted field."

It's this breaking continuity? When Constantine visited Atlantis with Paul, Aqua girl and the queen said necromancy isn't a widely studied field in Atlantis and that was one of the few magics the surface world had developed much further than them. So a competent Necromancer is one of the few mage types Paul cannot pull out of the Atlantis hat. So this is a continuity break.

Paul should say he is friends with a few necromancers and after training with his grandfather for so long Cornwall boy should be a very good Shaman and competent necromancer.

Osserumb · Jan 1, 2021

Handlewithcare said:
"I would like to call as my witness...SPACE JESUS!"

shocked gasps, dramatic zoom

And a group of traditionalists will denounce the witness as false.

"He is not orthodox enough! He goes against our group's traditions !"

Darko · Jan 1, 2021

Chaoswind said:
It's this breaking continuity? When Constantine visited Atlantis with Paul, Aqua girl and the queen said necromancy isn't a widely studied field in Atlantis and that was one of the few magics the surface world had developed much further than them. So a competent Necromancer is one of the few mage types Paul cannot pull out of the Atlantis hat. So this is a continuity break.

Paul should say he is friends with a few necromancers and after training with his grandfather for so long Cornwall boy should be a very good Shaman and competent necromancer.

He said that it's not heavily restricted.

This could mean that there aren't that many laws against it in Atlantis, but they're just not all that interested in it.

Plus Atlantean sorcerers will most likely have a greater degree of knowledge on magical theory than most surface dwellers.

And that was several years ago in this story, so some Atlantean deciding to improve his necromancy skills is a possibility.

Mr Zoat · Jan 1, 2021

Chaoswind said:
It's this breaking continuity? When Constantine visited Atlantis with Paul, Aqua girl and the queen said necromancy isn't a widely studied field in Atlantis and that was one of the few magics the surface world had developed much further than them. So a competent Necromancer is one of the few mage types Paul cannot pull out of the Atlantis hat. So this is a continuity break.

Paul should say he is friends with a few necromancers and after training with his grandfather for so long Cornwall boy should be a very good Shaman and competent necromancer.

It's true that the surface world has more necromancers, but the Queen was mistaken. Surface worlders generally have no understanding of the theory behind what they're doing, and after what happened with the Lazarus Pits the SI rather wants that.

CTrees · Jan 1, 2021

Darko said:
I never thought I'd see the day where someone said that politics was fun.

Fantasy politics are often fun. Look at Babylon 5, or Game of Thrones, or the Dune series, or Vampire the Masquerade LARPing. It's only real world politics that is so generally unpleasant, because it actually affects us despite most people's limited ability to actually influence it, and how it raises the tempers of real world interactions. Thankfully, real world politics is banned here!

Darko · Jan 1, 2021

CTrees said:
Fantasy politics are often fun. Look at Babylon 5, or Game of Thrones, or the Dune series, or Vampire the Masquerade LARPing. It's only real world politics that is so generally unpleasant, because it actually affects us despite most people's limited ability to actually influence it, and how it raises the tempers of real world interactions. Thankfully, real world politics is banned here!

Well politics for the last 20 years are banned.

Mr Zoat · Jan 1, 2021

Darko said:
Well politics for the last 20 years are banned.

The... Implementation of that means that it actually goes back a lot further. You can't, for example, talk about the gold standard even in a historical context.

Chaoswind · Jan 1, 2021

Mr Zoat said:
It's true that the surface world has more necromancers, but the Queen was mistaken. Surface worlders generally have no understanding of the theory behind what they're doing, and after what happened with the Lazarus Pits the SI rather wants that.

So if they don't practice it how is the queen wrong? Demonology is absolutely banned and contacting the dead can often allow demons to piggyback on the necromancy spells, ergo necromancy is only a couple of step removed from being completely and absolutely banned in Atlantis by default. They may have some theoreticals on scrolls, but actual practitioners are unlikely to be more than a handful of Hades worshippers with maybe a couple of experts in absolute total (and I doubt it), however since contacting the Atlantean dead to resolve pertinent issues hasn't ever been done neither in Canon or this fic, Paul is more likely to find Necromancers in Themesira than Atlantis (and that is already extremely unlikely). If Paul wants Necromancer experts then his best bet is on London, not Atlantis.

DrThoth · Jan 1, 2021

Chaoswind said:
So if they don't practice it how is the queen wrong?

I believe Zoat means the Queen was wrong when saying necromancy was a more developed field of magic on the surface, since 'more developed' implies a level of theoretical knowledge that doesn't actually exist in surface world magical practice. I feel like Doctor Mist or Doctor Fate are better choices, maybe Angelica too.

I don't remember how strong Atlantean cultural taboos against necromancy are, if any; Orm came back as a kind of undead water zombie, after all, though I believe he used Lazarus Pits or something. As Chaoswind points out, the fact that no one in either Paragon or Renegade timelines suggest necromancy to help resolve the Venturia issue does indicate the entire practice isn't viable.

Mr Zoat, why have H'ronmeer be a relatively mundane disciple of Karmang instead of being an actual death god similar to comics canon? It could have been interesting to see Paragon (or Renegade) interact with extraterrestrial divinities and try to set up an interplanetary afterlife system or something fun.

Edit: Also, I was rereading the segment where Paragon is held captive by Bane and has to talk his way out, and the Calculator shows up indirectly as a way to put Bane in contact with his father. I don't imagine the Calculator would have a great deal of information that Paragon or Renegade couldn't get via their own resources, but is there any chance he'll show up again in-story? He seems like the kind of person Mr. Near would use as a resource, at least.

fluffy · Jan 1, 2021

The more and more this episode goes on the more it feels like the south park episode where Thomas Crapper's ghost showed up and said they were sitting on the toilet wrong.

Mr Zoat · Jan 1, 2021

DrThoth said:
Mr Zoat, why have H'ronmeer be a relatively mundane disciple of Karmang instead of being an actual death god similar to comics canon? It could have been interesting to see Paragon (or Renegade) interact with extraterrestrial divinities and try to set up an interplanetary afterlife system or something fun.

Because of how I'm portraying Martian culture and magic, it made more sense for him to not be a god.

Edit: Also, I was rereading the segment where Paragon is held captive by Bane and has to talk his way out, and the Calculator shows up indirectly as a way to put Bane in contact with his father. I don't imagine the Calculator would have a great deal of information that Paragon or Renegade couldn't get via their own resources, but is there any chance he'll show up again in-story? He seems like the kind of person Mr. Near would use as a resource, at least.

Probably.

Chaoswind said:
So if they don't practice it how is the queen wrong? Demonology is absolutely banned and contacting the dead can often allow demons to piggyback on the necromancy spells, ergo necromancy is only a couple of step removed from being completely and absolutely banned in Atlantis by default. They may have some theoretical on scrolls, but actual practitioners are unlikely to be more than a handful of Hades worshippers with maybe a couple of experts in absolute total (and I doubt it), however since contacting the Atlantean dead to resolve pertinent issues hasn't ever been done neither in Canon or this fic, Paul is more likely to find Necromancers in Themyscira than Atlantis (and that is already extremely unlikely). If Paul wants Necromancer experts then his best bet is on London, not Atlantis.

Yes, if he wants someone who meets the minimum standard to be called a 'necromancer'. If he wants someone who knows what they're doing with magic and can apply that to necromancy, Atlantis is far better.

Chaoswind · Jan 1, 2021

Mr Zoat said:
Because of how I'm portraying Martian culture and magic, it made more sense for him to not be a god.

Probably.

Yes, if he wants someone who meets the minimum standard to be called a 'necromancer'. If he wants someone who knows what they're doing with magic and can apply that to necromancy, Atlantis is far better.

That would still be the white college or whatever it's called, not Atlantis by a long shot.

I don't think it's a good idea to break continuity with the facts established in more than four whole episodes that Atlantis doesn't have the expertise or wide knowledge of a few branches of magic and that the surface world and places like Xerox has much better knowledge on a number of branches of magic (green magic, demonology, necromancy, teleportation, etc), it's even one of the key plot points in the Renegade side and why Grayven is getting magic experts from very different places to work together and help each other... If Atlantis has all the answers then that WHOLE subplot becomes entirely pointless.

I could accept the answer if you had previously build towards it, like Constantine visit making Queen Mera decide Necromancy and other forms of magic needed to be heavily studied as well, or some other pertinent reason, without such build up this breaks SOD and continuity thus gets my strong disagreement.

Maxx Crowley · Jan 1, 2021

I know people feel OL should be more political...but to be perfectly honest, there is nothing stopping him from just yoinking all the Martians who want to come with him. Power ring, FTL, and their all gone before anyone can do jack shit.

Granted, those Martians probably wouldn't be welcomed back but....given how whites are treated (Oof that was hard to write with a straight face) why would they want to?

I'm reminded of a story I read....probably 15 plus years ago, where a mega powerful Telekinetic accidently cracked a planet in half while dealing with the occupants stupid, petty bullshit.

Darko · Jan 1, 2021

Chaoswind said:
That would still be the white college or whatever it's called, not Atlantis by a long shot.

I don't think it's a good idea to break continuity with the facts established in more than four whole episodes that Atlantis doesn't have the expertise or wide knowledge of a few branches of magic and that the surface world and places like Xerox has much better knowledge on a number of branches of magic (green magic, demonology, necromancy, teleportation, etc), it's even one of the key plot points in the Renegade side and why Grayven is getting magic experts from very different places to work together and help each other... If Atlantis has all the answers then that WHOLE subplot becomes entirely pointless.

I could accept the answer if you had previously build towards it, like Constantine visit making Queen Mera decide Necromancy and other forms of magic needed to be heavily studied as well, or some other pertinent reason, without such build up this breaks SOD and continuity thus gets my strong disagreement.

The White College may not exist in this story, and if it existed then OL hasn't had much, if any, contact with it, so him trying to ask them to come to another planet with him when he has never conducted any business with them may not be all that easy of a sell.

The College may also not know more about the theory behind magic than Atlantis does.

Yes they may have more people who practice necromancy, but that doesn't mean their knowledge of theory is greater than that of Atlantis.

Paragon also has not had contact with Xerox and may not know where it is or if it even exists.

Zoat is not breaking continuity, you're just nitpicking.

Someguy Somewhere · Jan 1, 2021

Also he knows another of non atlantian necromancer, she's still doing a world tour for hades last I checked....maybe she'll want to make it a World(s) tour instead

Darko · Jan 1, 2021

Someguy Somewhere said:
Also he knows another of non atlantian necromancer, she's still doing a world tour for hades last I checked....maybe she'll want to make it a World(s) tour instead

Yes, she is a necromancer and has experience with it, but she may not understand the exact process of what she does.

Dakkan Sall · Jan 1, 2021

Mr Zoat said:
"He was asked about Mars security in a general sense. Ah, 'removing existing barrier based on colour would allow for a dramatic expansion of our extra-atmospheric capacity and ameliorate the psychological difficulties which we are known to encounter. Since this would put the population outside the traditional bounds of any city, a change in governance structure would be helpful in preserving clear accountability of the military to the civilian government.'"

Just to check, but is the text size meant to change back to 'normal' here? I presume that such would indicate going to a more conversational volume rather than whispering, but there doesn't seem to be any IC reason to have done so.

Stsword · Jan 1, 2021

I think this story missed an opportunity with regards to Atlantean magic.

YJ Atlantis is not a magic based civilization but a high tech civilization with a rather technology magical tradition.

In YJ, Atlantean magic is based on iconographs, those "magic tattoos" like Kaldur has.

Atlantean magic is based on channeling magic into those iconographs or technomagical objects, like Kaldur's Waterbearers.

In short, those iconographs are effectively magical circuits.

in DnD terms, there isn't a single actual spellcaster in Atlantis, rather it's a society that figured out how to make magic items and teaching people the Use Magical Device skill.

So good at thaumatology, no. If they were good at thaumatology they wouldn't need iconographs.

But think about it- Atlantean iconographs take in (magical) energy and then achieve specific results. Specific results like say control water, including the making of solid water constructs.

Now think about it, what rather prominent iconic item in DC does that description remind you of? Hint- The main character of this fic wears a bright orange one on his finger.

Paul could be encouraging the Atlanteans to increase their iconography until they can replicate the versatility of a power ring.

It's not like magic has a built in limit towards versatility, because the Zatara logomancy would prove that a lie, and heck for that matter magic can be used to control the emotional electromagnetic spectrum itself- in the comics that is how the red lanterns came about, and in this story Druid used magic to control the Black.

Paul's soul tattoos and Alan's transformation in fact suggest one could get a set of soul tattoos to absorb will/avarice/etc energy specifically to turn someone into a will/avarice/whatever elemental by constantly channeling that energy into someone's soul.

Mr Zoat · Jan 1, 2021

Dakkan Sall said:
Just to check, but is the text size meant to change back to 'normal' here? I presume that such would indicate going to a more conversational volume rather than whispering, but there doesn't seem to be any IC reason to have done so.

Yes, she's translating at full volume and whispering everything else.

Jack of Olives · Jan 2, 2021

Handlewithcare said:
"I would like to call as my witness...SPACE JESUS!"

... Come to think of it; that would make for an interesting alternate reality. Fairly plausible, too; considering their comic book appearances, and the number of pictures of him with various lantern rings.

... Huh, now I want to see Paul interact with him.

Darko · Jan 2, 2021

Stsword said:
I think this story missed an opportunity with regards to Atlantean magic.

YJ Atlantis is not a magic based civilization but a high tech civilization with a rather technology magical tradition.

In YJ, Atlantean magic is based on iconographs, those "magic tattoos" like Kaldur has.

Atlantean magic is based on channeling magic into those iconographs or technomagical objects, like Kaldur's Waterbearers.

In short, those iconographs are effectively magical circuits.

in DnD terms, there isn't a single actual spellcaster in Atlantis, rather it's a society that figured out how to make magic items and teaching people the Use Magical Device skill.

So good at thaumatology, no. If they were good at thaumatology they wouldn't need iconographs.

But think about it- Atlantean iconographs take in (magical) energy and then achieve specific results. Specific results like say control water, including the making of solid water constructs.

Now think about it, what rather prominent iconic item in DC does that description remind you of? Hint- The main character of this fic wears a bright orange one on his finger.

Paul could be encouraging the Atlanteans to increase their iconography until they can replicate the versatility of a power ring.

It's not like magic has a built in limit towards versatility, because the Zatara logomancy would prove that a lie, and heck for that matter magic can be used to control the emotional electromagnetic spectrum itself- in the comics that is how the red lanterns came about, and in this story Druid used magic to control the Black.

Paul's soul tattoos and Alan's transformation in fact suggest one could get a set of soul tattoos to absorb will/avarice/etc energy specifically to turn someone into a will/avarice/whatever elemental by constantly channeling that energy into someone's soul.

Ah, there are spell casters in Atlantis.

We have been show Atlanteans casting spells, and some Atlanteans that do that don't even seem to have the tattoos.

The tattoos help them, but they're still spellcasters even without them.

Just because they use something to help them with their magic, that doesn't mean they're somehow not spellcasters or incapable of magic like you're suggesting.

It also doesn't mean that they don't have an understanding of how magic works and the theory behind it, which is what Paul is searching for.

Sockmonkey · Jan 2, 2021

Mr Zoat said:
Because of how I'm portraying Martian culture and magic, it made more sense for him to not be a god.

Probably.

Yes, if he wants someone who meets the minimum standard to be called a 'necromancer'. If he wants someone who knows what they're doing with magic and can apply that to necromancy, Atlantis is far better.

One could argue that surface-worlders are more advanced in a handful of specific aspects of necromancy because they've learned the sorts of things you only find out by trying the kind of stupid crazy shit no reputable mage would think of.

Mr Zoat · Jan 2, 2021

6th July 2012
04:21 GMT +3

I watch through the one way glass as one of the latest batch of EDF applicants is interviewed. They're going over his employment history at the moment, the interviewee looking fairly cheerful as he explains his design portfolio to the nodding interviewer.

Lex is sitting next to me, scrolling through the files on the rest. I turn my head his way, raising my eyebrows.

"Has this been a big problem?"

"That depends on your definition of 'big'. The fact is that people are often rather attached to the country of their birth. Even someone with no history with their nation's intelligence service is a risk. And, naturally, I can't tell you what percentage of security risks are getting though our screening, because..."

"Yes."

That's another reason why we're focusing our development efforts on Africa, of course. If your country was a corrupt shit hole before my allies 'arranged things', you're not going to feel all that emotionally attached to the institutions of state. If your country is only held together by external pressure, are you going to spare it a second thought when you get a better offer?

As the developed world's immigration statistics tell you, the answer's a resounding no. Which makes the place perfect for us. Company towns as far as the eye can see. Incorruptible genomorph-supported policing. Good roads. Reliable water supplies. Schools, admittedly focused on supplying the EDF's need but the EDF needs everything. There's a government around somewhere, but we're making a MegaCorp here. I doubt… Ah, what's this place-? Ogaden, that's it. I doubt Ogaden as a notion attracts a great deal of loyalty.

So in twenty years we'll have a huge number of well educated, well trained 'post-nationalist' employees, but for now we're mostly looking for people who don't care all that much about their home country but either care about our mission or are prepared to learn to care about the EDF.

And don't work for their home country's intelligence agency like this git.

"Want me to have a word with the Chinese?"

"No, I think it's best if you don't mention it. Obviously they know that I'm working with you, but I doubt they'll comment on it unless you force the issue. It's better to keep the good will." His eyes flick my way as he smiles. "It's not as if anything you say will make them stop."

I nod, and return my eyes to the interview being conducted with their latest effort. Lex has happily been accepting offers of seconded military personnel from everyone who offers them, but their political masters have swiftly realised that we're not giving them access to design schematics, let alone the more sensitive parts of the EDF's technology catalogue. So they're getting thorough demonstrations on how to use Dr. Metcalf's equipment but without any real idea how to replicate it.

So many things we're not able to patent for fear that someone will do something stupid with the knowledge. Or worse, clever.

"It's starting to get a little difficult to recruit people who aren't from Africa."

I frown, turning to face him.

"Surely there are enough idealists for what you need?"

"There's a very narrow Venn Diagram overlap between people idealistic enough to rise above their patriotism, strong willed enough to resist pressure from their home nations and skilled enough to actually be useful. And we have to make sure that they stay that way."

"Do you want to accelerate the colonisation schedule?"

That would be… Difficult. Life-bearing worlds tend to bear life. Most of the immediately-habitable planets in this Sector already have people on them. Quite a few of the marginal ones as well. We have the technology to build habitats, but what's the point? There isn't much they can do that can't be done far more easily on a planet. The worlds we've tentatively identified as possible expansion targets aren't all that appealing places to live and won't be at any point in the near future. There are a few nicer worlds in the region that no one's using yet, but they're far further away which… Causes its own problems.

"I don't see that we can. Unless one of our colleagues has a way to rapidly terraform an entire planet."

"I don't know of anyone with that capacity. If I could get hold of Swamp Thing and… Somehow talked him into it, he could accelerate the growth of local plant life forms. But terraforming requires that the entire ecosystem develop together."

"I don't suppose he has an equivalent for microbes and insects, does he?"

"Not one I've met. Distant colonisation is far more feasible. We'd have to make a bigger effort to make friends with the neighbours. Probably a good idea to come up with a casus amicus in advance. Want me to take a look?"

"No. I'll take a flotilla and make a good will tour."

"That's.. not really a thing, on other planets. Turning up with warships doesn't exactly shout 'friends'."

"Then I'll have to establish another tradition. Mister Mere, do you have enough?"

The g-goblin nods slowly. I've noticed that the LexCorp g-goblin isn't anything like as expressive as the others. Even the older ones. Not sure why that is; Lex has been making an effort to be more genuinely personable lately, particularly when compared to the way 'old' Lex used to treat aliens. To say nothing of telepaths. Old Lex would have rather given himself root canal chirurgery without anaesthetic than rely on a telepath like this.

"Mercy, tell Mister Keates that he can conclude the interview at his leisure."

A nod and a touch of a computer pad.

"How was… Pony Land?"

I bow my head slightly, smiling as I do so.

"Equestria."

"Gesundheit."

"Thank you. It's a wonderful place. Almost like a children's animated series brought to life. A… Well written one, with the occasional competent adversary-."

"I'm familiar with the type. My media companies produce several."

"Interested in doing a documentary on the other side of the mirror? The videos of Luna are generating a farcical amount of attention, given what else is going on around here."

He pauses, then pushes his datapad aside and gives me his full attention.

"Has your paramour agreed to that?"

"Not yet. Though honestly, I think she'll find the whole process fascinating." Hm. "I may have to remind her that she doesn't need to project her voice so much with modern microphones. She was born in an earlier age and has a very healthy set of 'addressing the troops' lungs."

"That is an interesting idea. And meeting a friendly alien species will serve to encourage people to consider the less militant aspect of interstellar expeditions."

"Could do a series, then. Mars has more or less stabilised, and Tamaran's populated by orange swimsuit models."

He nods. "Mars, yes. But while our ships are perfectly capable of reaching Tamaran, it would be a stretch on our supply lines."

I… Think for a moment.

"How quickly can we put together a long ranged exploration vessel?"

"A dedicated one?" I nod. "I'm sure that Doctor Metcalf has a design. We can't really afford to refit an existing battlecruiser, but we could probably assemble one inside a year. Why?"

"There aren't any heavily fortified obstacles between here and Tamaran. The only outstanding problems are raiders. And no one will expect a dedicated explorer to fight actual warships. So there's no loss of pride if I arrange for the ship to be met at the other end by a friendly fleet."

"And it will serve as a further encouragement to anyone interested in peaceful space travel." He nods. "I agree. I'll draft a request for Doctor Metcalf."

I smile broadly. "I do so like living in the future. Don't you?"

Behind me, Mr. Keates smiles as he shakes hands with the failed Chinese spy and sends him on his way.

With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

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