With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[Darko]

Ah, more Tangseid. Well, let's get it over with...

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Hopefully tomorrow we get something not him.

Max' as in Maxwell Lord or 'Max' as in Max Mercury?

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Lord.

I mean, does 'Star Trek' even exist in the DC Universes? Or is there a suspiciously similar counterpart, like 'Galaxy Trip'? Whose ship resembles two cigars sticking out of a frisbee, and features an over-dramatic captain, emotionless (except when dramatically appropriate!) alien science officer and a grouchy doctor?

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Aside from that show Beast Boy did I'm not sure.

I remember that Obloquy actually added Star Trek, or something with a similar name in it, in his story and that Manhunter actually appeared in it a few times, as well as a few episodes of My Favorite Martian.

It was a nice bit of worldbuilding.

And given that we know where he ends up, it makes this all the more telling that he'd up and say it.

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Self awareness isn't exactly a villains strong point.

Of course it is? Seriously, if you had the physique the ring gave him, wouldn't you want to show it off as often as possible?

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Not to a teenage girl.

She does realise he likes her, yes?

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Though not in a way a lot of people would like to be liked.

Cheeky. And this just keeps getting creepier...

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And it's going to keep getting creepier.

Well... Not quite as bad as I expected

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It will be as bad as you expected in the future.

He ends up mind altering appreciably more men than women, due to their greater share of political and economic power.

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Yes, but in that instance he was acting in accordance with her stated wishes.

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There are two ways to change how people think about you: change yourself, or change them.

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To paraphrase a shrieking skeleton on a golden toilet "Just because something sounds logical doesn't mean that it isn't unfathomably wrong and creepy."

 

[RichardWhereat]

You know, he makes good points about sexism in depictions of female characters. If only we didn't already know he becomes a ravening, malevolent, rape monster.

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Very true, if it weren't for that, he'd be my favourite of the Pauls.

 

[Mr Zoat]

To paraphrase a shrieking skeleton on a golden toilet "Just because something sounds logical doesn't mean that it isn't unfathomably wrong and creepy."

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Says a skeleton who gets fed thousands of screaming psychic children daily.

 

[Silverias]

Says a skeleton who gets fed thousands of screaming psychic children daily.

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Hypocrisy does not, innately, detract from a point.

 

[Darko]

Says a skeleton who gets fed thousands of screaming psychic children daily.

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Good point, but my point still stands.

 

[Mr Zoat]

You know, he makes good points about sexism in depictions of female characters. If only we didn't already know he becomes a ravening, malevolent, rape monster.

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Technically, he's not malevolent: 'having or showing a wish to do evil to others'. In his first appearance he was show to be trying to improve the world and having at least some success. Rather, he's monstrous: 'inhumanly or outrageously evil or wrong'.

 

[Rebu]

You know, he makes good points about sexism in depictions of female characters. If only we didn't already know he becomes a ravening, malevolent, rape monster.

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It would be valid if there was any evidence of some kind of in-universe standard that forces women into such costumes. One could argue that having Wonder Woman as the most prominent female hero in history (assuming it happened in this universe) influenced a lot of ladies' costume choices.

Of course, male costumes back in the day were basically "draw them like they were circus strongmen and bodybuilders, but use some bright color instead of skin and slap a logo on their chest." Even Iron Man inexplicably had muscles until around the mid 2000s, when Adi Granov actually drew Extremis to look like proper armor. Male hero costumes were and are still are based on idealized and conventionally sexually attractive male bodi -

Oh, what's that? Getting close to current-day politics? I'll knock it off now.

 

[Prince Charon]

Well... Not quite as bad as I expected... The costume bit was funny. Bit we're still watching a morality-free thirty-something trying to woo a sixteen-year-old. And succeeding, slowly. Knowing where it all ends up makes it so much worse...

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I think she's fifteen at this point, which IIRC is legal in fewer US member-states than sixteen is (in our timeline, but I don't see why that would need to be different on Earth-16). Meanwhile, sixteen is legal in England, where Paul is from.

 

[Darko]

I think she's fifteen at this point, which IIRC is legal in fewer US member-states than sixteen is (in our timeline, but I don't see why that would need to be different on Earth-16). Meanwhile, sixteen is legal in England, where Paul is from.

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It may be legal, but socially acceptable is another matter.

And the reason it may still be a law is because not a lot of people know about it since most adults don't try to have relationships, romantic or sexual, with teenagers, so the law doesn't get brought up all that often, and thus people may not know about it.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Of course, male costumes back in the day were basically "draw them like they were circus strongmen and bodybuilders, but use some bright color instead of skin and slap a logo on their chest." Even Iron Man inexplicably had muscles until around the mid 2000s, when Adi Granov actually drew Extremis to look like proper armor. Male hero costumes were and are still are based on idealized and conventionally sexually attractive male bodi -

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Yeah, but... Would you really want the alternative?

 

[WereDragon]

14th September 2010
21:23 GMT -5

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Was rather hoping we were done with this git.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Was rather hoping we were done with this git.

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You are, for now.

 

[Chaoswind]

The sauntering downward is entertaining in the same way watching a slowed down recording of a car wreck is. We know how the car pile up will end, and now we are watching the recording of how the first car just lost a tire and started to lose control... He is about to hit one of his first cars in the future pileup.


The fact Zoat is investing time on this setup means there are going to be future interactions between this guy and one of the main time-lines (rene or para), these updates are important, stop dismissing them outright.

 

[Darko]

The sauntering downward is entertaining in the same way watching a slowed down recording of a car wreck is. We know how the car pile up will end, and now we are watching the recording of how the first car just lost a tire and started to lose control... He is about to hit one of his first cars in the future pileup.


The fact Zoat is investing time on this setup means there are going to be future interactions between this guy and one of the main time-lines (rene or para), these updates are important, stop dismissing them outright.

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We know that they're important, but that doesn't mean we can't hate them.

 

[Maxx Crowley]

It's interesting how already knowing what Ol' Tangy becomes makes every single thing he does creepy and unpleasant to read.

 

[DrThoth]

I don't know, even the Crisis of Infinite Pauls didn't really have much of an overall impact on the story in my opinion. If things are building towards Tangseid becoming a multiversal conqueror and an overarching villain in his own right, then that could be interesting, but it's too early to tell. I may have said this before but I'm kind of hoping Renegade is the one to deal with him, just because he missed out on the multiversal shenanigans.

I'm somewhat interested in seeing how Tangseid will nab Circe; I do feel like Paragon not really doing anything with her is a bit more motivated by a need to distinguish that timeline from Renegade's than in-universe logic. He basically solved the animosity of Alkyone and co. and he does know Circe's core issue. I'm not saying he'll have an easy fix but I do feel like it's a problem he'd be interested in resolving. Hera's reappearance makes me hopeful he'll be interacting with more of the gods more frequently, particularly Hecate (for the Circe thing), Ares and of course Zeus.

 

[Darko]

I'm somewhat interested in seeing how Tangseid will nab Circe

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I'm betting he assimilated Nabu, gave him to another magician to wear and had said magician capture Circe for him.

 

[Clell65619]

14th September 2010
21:23 GMT -5


Hm. She's agreed in principle and now she's just arguing over the price. But that's perfectly fine. Now that I don't have to worry about… Anything, getting what I want is just a matter of patience and planning.

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I know that this version of the SI is supposed to be on a descent into sociopathy (if that's a word), but this here... Isn't this just dating?

 

[Darko]

I know that this version of the SI is supposed to be on a descent into sociopathy (if that's a word), but this here... Isn't this just dating?

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Paragon and renegade were both uncomfortable with younger girls being sexually interested in them, while this one is interested in dating someone he knows is underage.

This chapter was basically here to show us how much further he's sliding into villainy and sociopathy, and just generally losing his morality.

 

[DrThoth]

I'm betting he assimilated Nabu, gave him to another magician to wear and had said magician capture Circe for him.

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I just reread Tangseid's first segment and noticed/remembered that Circe had a 'Nabu-ring', so that could be how it plays out, yes. Really, it's a good thing Renegade wasn't more malevolent, because with a construct Nabu he could do a lot of damage.

Tangseid also mentioned isolationist primitives who he 'convinced' to share groundbreaking technology, which I took to be a reference to the Amazons. I wonder if he dominated Hippolyta as well and if so, whether that was before or after Diana; Renegade found her soul-structure notable, though I'm not sure if that can just be explained by being a demigoddess daughter of Ares.

I know that this version of the SI is supposed to be on a descent into sociopathy (if that's a word), but this here... Isn't this just dating?

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If you ignore his formula-based disregard for social norms as well as the presumed willingness to keep lying to her about his age and thus denying her the capacity to make an informed decision of consent.

 

[Mr Zoat]

I'm somewhat interested in seeing how Tangseid will nab Circe; I do feel like Paragon not really doing anything with her is a bit more motivated by a need to distinguish that timeline from Renegade's than in-universe logic. He basically solved the animosity of Alkyone and co. and he does know Circe's core issue. I'm not saying he'll have an easy fix but I do feel like it's a problem he'd be interested in resolving. Hera's reappearance makes me hopeful he'll be interacting with more of the gods more frequently, particularly Hecate (for the Circe thing), Ares and of course Zeus.

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The main SI's version of Circe joined the Light, and much to Nylor Truggs's surprise actually listened to him when he said 'howsabout we just don't'. While he could hunt her down, she hasn't been active for a while and he's got other things to do.

 

[Old Knife]

What is her core issue anyway? And why does she hate Hippolyta so much?

 

[freakytiki34]

I'm going to be controversial and say I like the Tangseid storyline. I hate the character obviously, but his story is shaping up to be something we've never had before: antagonist!Paul. We've never rooted against an SI before, and his whole plot opens up a lot of possibilities.

 

[Mr Zoat]

What is her core issue anyway? And why does she hate Hippolyta so much?

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As I understand it, she has two core issues in the comics. Firstly, Hippolyta kicked her arse at some point before the Amazons fled to the island and she wants revenge. Secondly, Diana might fulfil the Hecate's conditions for revoking her power boost and she wants to kill her before that can happen.

 

[Pez]

What is her core issue anyway? And why does she hate Hippolyta so much?

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She hates Diana because of a prophecy that Diana will kill her. Circe made some deals to become immortal, which didn't work out like she wanted at first. Now she's just trying to escape the prophecy. Regengade worked out a solution, and now Circe doesn't need to kill Diana, because the phrophecy is moot.

I'm going to be controversial and say I like the Tangseid storyline. I hate the character obviously, but his story is shaping up to be something we've never had before: antagonist!Paul. We've never rooted against an SI before, and his whole plot opens up a lot of possibilities.

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Nothing controversial about it. You're allowed to like bad characters. I like the story, and the character. But then again, I read enough stories with heroes. Sometimes it's nice to read a good anti-hero, or villain in disguise, or even someone falling into darkness, right down that slippery slope. "She's young, but she's interested, and I'm horny..." "She's young and I'm horny... I can convince her." "Yeah, I'm hot for teacher. She still sees me as a kid, but a little Orange Light will fix that right up..." "She's a paragon of virtue and justice, but totally hot. Let me just tie her around the Orange Power Battery with her Lasso. She'll thank me for it as she's screaming my name in passion."

To me, Paul dating teenagers isn't that big of a deal, because he's physically a teenager, even if mentally older. It's not too dissimilar to Superboy or M'gann. Then again, maybe I've been warped by too many stories on QQ where things like that happen, like a first year SI Harry Potter having butt sex with Hermione Granger in the ROR...

 

[DrThoth]

We've never rooted against an SI before, and his whole plot opens up a lot of possibilities.

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I get the impression Renegade had a lot of detractors rooting against him early on in the fic, when he was the most evil iteration of the SI we saw, but I don't have a solid basis for that assumption since I came to the forum discussions fairly late.

The main SI's version of Circe joined the Light, and much to Nylor Truggs's surprise actually listened to him when he said 'howsabout we just don't'. While he could hunt her down, she hasn't been active for a while and he's got other things to do.

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I knew she was working with Truggs to get the Hero Dial, but I thought it was like her earlier appearance in the Johny Sorrows attack on Themyscira and it was just a temporary cooperation due to aligned goals. Her joining the Light makes sense given their poor state of magic users (I'm not sure how much Boss Smiley contributes on that front, but I know the vagueness of his powerset/motives/identity is the key aspect of his character). I'd have thought she would be more cautious since she should be aware what happened to her predecessors, but I guess that may explain her willingness to be cautious and subtle.

I'd be happy with any hero taking the initiative to track down the Light, which might well be happening but I'd like to actually see it happen or at least be discussed.

Did we ever get a resolution to Johny Sorrows' storyline in the Paragon timeline? It's been so long but I think he did successfully get the key needed to summon the King of Tears, but that's never come up.

 

[Darko]

I get the impression Renegade had a lot of detractors rooting against him early on in the fic, when he was the most evil iteration of the SI we saw, but I don't have a solid basis for that assumption since I came to the forum discussions fairly late.

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Yeah, a lot of people didn't like him before he got some character development.

 

[DrThoth]

Yeah, a lot of people didn't like him before he got some character development.

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I didn't like the fact that he assimilated the resurrected Klarion instead of trying something else, since at that point he'd had his initial big Anti-Life crisis. He's backslid a bit in some ways, though I still think it's a good degree of development from earlier.

 

[Stsword]

Humanity in a nutshell. The average is pretty mediocre compared to galactic standards, but at the tail end of the bell curve, the greatest humans are as powerful as some of the top tier of the top tier in the entire universe. The scaling, the sheer variance in human abilities, just makes no sense compared to any other planet.

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Not quite true.

There are the New Gods, which range from the likes of Darkseid and Highfather down to the guys who lick Darkseid's boots clean every morning.

And the DC's answer to the Inhumans, an alien civilization that discovered scientifically how to give random superpowers, the Competalians, so their powers range from "holy crap" to "Are you sure that qualifies as a superpower?"

Correction: The Alliance knows how to give out random superpowers, the bad guy, Anathema, who became tyrant, knows exactly how to give out exactly which superpowers she wants, with a side dose of slavery thrown in. Works on humans too.

There are also the psychic Titans, who in one iteration are refugees from one of the shrunken Brainiac bottle cities, and their powers range from "activate my own adrenaline for a burst of minor superspeed and strength" to "I can use telekinesis to emulate Kryptonian powers because I'm a Superboy fanboy."

 

[gustyeagle]

It's interesting how already knowing what Ol' Tangy becomes makes every single thing he does creepy and unpleasant to read.

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No, I think its the other way around. Tangie-boy is so creepy, cringey, and unpleasant, it makes you root even more against him.