With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Doccer · Jul 27, 2021

Mr Zoat said:
"Has that happened to you?"

"I was it happening to you."

The grammar here is off. Specifically that second sentence. It makes this exchange confusing.
What is being said here?

Stsword · Jul 27, 2021

Darko said:
So even if they obey the strongest that only counts so long as they're also a mass murdering, cannibalistic rapist.

Probably.

The WW storyline was very much a Rousseau Was Right thing going on, though.

WW was able to talk Theana down (for which they murdered her) and not only did the Citizenry seemingly obey WW's orders to retire, Diana stated that they seemed happy to do so.

So in the comics it wasn't so much that the Citizenry loved their genocide snake gruel so much, but that they were afraid of their completely psychotic leader, Astarte, murdering them if they didn't obey orders.

It was less that the Citizenry were Space Orks and more Astarte is a freaking psycho and the Citizenry were actually happy to see the back of her.

Now while Zoat seemingly adapted this in a more cynical manner, Astarte might just be projecting her own emotional defiencies onto her subordinates.

Mr Zoat · Jul 27, 2021

hance1986 said:
' Worlds '
' raised '

Coda said:
sheathe
we've ever raised

Darko said:
'for him'

Thank you, corrected.

Doccer said:
The grammar here is off. Specifically that second sentence. It makes this exchange confusing.
What is being said here?

He's commenting on the fact that Diana assumed that he would react in certain ways and he didn't.

DrThoth · Jul 27, 2021

Does Paragon-Diana not know Hippolyta's father is Ares then? Eris told him, but I'm not sure it would come up in conversation between them if he assumed Diana already knew.
Maybe the final outcome is directing the Citizenry against the Reach or the Dominion or something; get Evil to fight Evil.

Ashaeron · Jul 27, 2021

What I'm concluding from this is that either Diana is going to leave earth for centuries, or she's going to abandon the rest of the sentient universe to these guys, or she ends up going with one of Grayvauls very renegade alternatives.

Doccer · Jul 27, 2021

Mr Zoat said:
He's commenting on the fact that Diana assumed that he would react in certain ways and he didn't.

Ok, so he was expected to act more brutishly/violently and he didn't so she questioned if something altered his moral compass?
but...
What was the "I was happening to you" bit?
'I was'?
Still sounds like the grammar.
Was he saying that she didn't affect him he's trying to affect her?

Mr Zoat · Jul 27, 2021

Doccer said:
Ok, so he was expected to act more brutishly/violently and he didn't so she questioned if something altered his moral compass?
but...
What was the "I was happening to you" bit?
'I was'?
Still sounds like the grammar.
Was he saying that she didn't affect him he's trying to affect her?

Because that wouldn't mirror her comment.

jaelin910 · Jul 27, 2021

Doccer said:
The grammar here is off. Specifically that second sentence. It makes this exchange confusing.
What is being said here?

Doccer said:
What was the "I was happening to you" bit?
'I was'?
Still sounds like the grammar.
Was he saying that she didn't affect him he's trying to affect her?

Reminds me of a quote from the Dresden files "What goes round comes around. And sometimes you get what's coming around. And sometimes you ARE what's coming around."
So to draw a comparison, Grayven's saying that the league got what was coming around while he was what came around

Cuchulin · Jul 27, 2021

Old Knife said:
Shame this isn't Paul. he's the one with the Pantheon on speed dial.

It would be fun to see how Paul would deal with this group.

Chojin Patriarch · Jul 27, 2021

Mr Zoat said:
1st September 2012
14:55 GMT

I shrug. "Well, you can't beat her up. It's-"

"Niece?"

Yep, Astarte's having trouble believing it. Mind blown. And I don't blame her. Imagine meeting what turns out to be a Themysciran, three thousand years after you left, and light-years away from Earth. And then she claims to be your baby sister's daughter?

"-quite wrong to do that to a prisoner."

Diana scowls. "That is not what I am debating."

Renegade, stop poking the already annoyed demigoddess warrior princess. The resulting dopeslap would probably put you through a wall.

Astarte is staring at Diana in disbelief. I wonder w-? Oh, of course. She's from the Old City. Back when Amazons lived their mortal span, aged and died like normal humans. Hippolyta would have died a little under three thousand years ago-. Wouldn't she?

"Diana, is Hippolyta a demigoddess? I didn't really get a good look at her when I visited Themyscira."

Probably asking as much for Astarte's benefit as his own curiosity. After all, she's lived this long (albeit aided by advanced technology,) who's to say her baby sister couldn't as well?

"Yes. And before you ask, I do not know who my mother's father-"

The lasso glows. "Ares."

"-was." Diana's eyes widen slightly, her face falling. "No."

Yeah, Diana. Turns out your mightiest foe is your grand-daddy.

Huh. "That would explain Astarte's divine voice. I'm a little surprised about Hippolyta, though. She doesn't seem to be the war demigoddess sort."

"'A warrior must know when to sheath their sword as well as when to draw it'. She told me that when I was a girl. I never thought it had any deeper meaning."

Meaning she was quite the war-monger in her prime. Presumably pre-retreat. Nice to now she's mellowed out over the millennia.

"A war demigoddess with self-control." I frown. "You know, she's wasted on Themyscira. Do you think-?"

"No."

Let her enjoy her sort-of-retirement, Renegade.

I give her a reproachful frown. "Not like that. I'm with Luna, and Hippolyta's doing that painfully oblivious thing with Captain Philippus. I'm talking about giving her a greater stage upon which to demonstrate her abilities. But we can discuss that later."

Diana frowns. "Oblivious..? Yes. Astarte. Can you command this fleet to abandon Grayven?"

Y'know, maybe someone should nudge them together?

Or at least poke Aphrodite Pandemos about it.

"Easily. They have no love of him. But that will not prevent them from ravaging this region."

"Could you command them not to?"

"I could issue the command. They would not obey it. They would kill me, then the commanders would fight amongst themselves for my position. And then the victor would carry on as before."

Because they've been enjoying eating porridge for however many centuries? Or is it just that you've grown accustomed to them trying to kill you and become the new leader?

I smile brightly. "Works for me."

Diana scowls at me. "It does not work for me."

Well, do you have any better ideas? Because it doesn't seem like they're nice people who are going to change the way of life they've followed for at least centuries.

"Diana, I realise that you don't leave Earth all that often, but let me be very clear about this. Out here, all too often, this is what it's like. There is no universal law or accepted moral code. The Green Lantern Corps are a very small-" I hold up my right hand and hold my thumb and forefinger a small distance apart from one another. "-plaster over a ripped open ribcage. People like the Citizenry, like the psions, like the Citadel, like Apokolips, they do what they like and no one tries to stop them. World burn, and if other places hear about it it's met with profound indifference. Space is vast and full of malevolence and it's by sheer chance that the Earth hasn't been snuffed out as the planet below us has."

Most of that indifference being 'Well, glad it's not us.' Yes, Earth morality does seem something of a rarityin the cosmos.

I lean forward slightly, maintaining eye contact.

"The laws you're used to do not exist. The common moral standards you're used to do not exist. The fellowship between peoples you're used to does not exist. What we have here is a community of mass murdering cannibals. If you want to try to persuade them to take a course of action that doesn't result in the preponderance of them being dead? Fine. That will make them your responsibility, yours to stay with for as many years, decades, centuries even, that it takes to get them straightened out. Are you prepared to do that? Are you in for the long haul, or are you going to throw a speech at them and then leave them to it? Because I assure you that will not work."

...Which it's worth noting, is largely what she did in the comic, from what I understand. I'll bet once she stopped checking in on them, they decided upon a new tyrant, and went right back to their old ways...

"And that is why you want to kill them? Because you believe that is what it will take and don't believe that I am prepared to do what is necessary to ensure that it does not?"

"I want to kill them because I'd like to establish a baseline of morality and under the circumstances I don't think that exterminating a culture of genocidal cannibals is a particularly unreasonable thing to do. If you disagree with me then put. The. Work. In. Place your mark upon the universe and change it to better suit you. But don't assume that it'll just happen."

And there's the core of the Renegade's issues with the League, isn't it? He understands that 'some people just need killing', and they don't like that attitude...

She looks at me, frustration giving way slightly to curiosity.

"Has that happened to you?"

"I was it happening to you."

Heh. And I'm sure she hated every little conflict of opinion...

"If you beat me in the arena, the other-" We both turn to Astarte. "-commanders might accept you. Niece." She doesn't sound like she's signing her own death warrant. Maybe she thinks that she can win? "Once they realise what you're trying to do they'll try to kill you, but they'll do it as one Citizen to another without tearing the fleet apart."

"Interesting opportunity there, Diana. Kill a quite a few people one at a time over a period of years, or let a lot kill each other over a couple of days."

Alas, I doubt she'll put the effort in to stick around, nor let them sort it out themselves...

"I don't believe those are the options. Can I fight to first blood?"

"No."

Given the Citizenry tendency towards ultra-violence, that's probably considered a warm-up round.

"Submission, then."

"Perhaps. You would have to be extremely brutal to make a commander submit to you, and if it looked like you were unwilling to kill then the others would see you as weak. I would never submit to you."

Which would be almost as infuriating for Diana as simply killing. She may enjoy a good fight, but not wanton hurting.

"Never?"

"Never."

I nod. "People don't rise to the top in this sort of society by doubting themselves or hesitating to use violence." Hm. "Hey, Astarte, do you have any children?"

More family for the reunion!

"Yes. One daughter."

"Let me guess; you raised her the Spartan way and now she's some sort of crazy warrior champion."

"The Spartans were weak. Theana is the most vicious Citizen soldier we're ever raises. Every cruel impulse embodied in a single woman."

...Yeah, that's not a good thing. If I remember right, you keep her confined for everyone else's safety.

I grin. "Oh, a true granddaughter for Ares. How about it, Diana? Do you think you can talk her down? How is reforming Ares going?"

"I refuse to believe that any mortal woman can be that cruel."

You have no idea, hon. Wait until you meet Granny Goodness and her Female Furies. (Yes, not entirely mortal, but hey...)

I shake my head. But, hey, at least she's committing. "If you die, I'll include that optimistic quote in your funeral oration. So we're doing this?"

"I'm doing this. You may do what you like."

Hoo boy. This promises to be sobering for the princess...

"Frustrating as I find you sometimes, I'm no more likely to abandon you than you are to abandon me. I don't think this will work, but it would be nice if it did."

She nods.

Hey, at least thy can agree on something?

"Aunt. How do I announce this challenge?"

"Unbind me."

...Just how dumb do you think they are?

Diana hesitates, but I just smile.

"It's not like my drones have gone anywhere." I hold out my left hand and begin fabricating a new daiklave. "Let her go. She's going to get the chance to fight you anyway. She's a psycho, not an idiot."

True. At least she can be reasoned with. I shudder at what some of her subordinates will be like...

I deactivate the healing ray and phase the drone out as Diana steps behind her aunt and begins removing the lasso. She steps back promptly as the rope comes lose and Astarte rises to her feet, loosening the muscles in her arms in preparation for a fight.

Diana stands proud. "Here or in the arena, aunt Astarte."

"The arena. Captain Astarte to all commanders. I have a challenger."

And watch as this turns into an endurance match as one after the other takes their shot...

Hoo boy. Isn't this shaping up into a fine moral conundrum for Diana. Compromise her ideals by killing people in sound need of it, or watch in frustration as they refuse to change for her sake... Hopefully, this can come to a good conclusion... And I suppose whatever happens, Diana's going to have to exercise her divine side.

...the rope comes lose and Astarte rises to her feet...

...the rope comes loose and Astarte rises to her feet...

Vaermina · Jul 27, 2021

Coda said:
You say it's a problem. I say it just makes With This Ring have some verisimilitude with every other reboot that comic books have ever seen -- when you have the freedom to define the world, but you want to revisit a story that's already been written, tinkering with the details to make a similar end result happen while the specific facts are different is par for the course. One might even call it a genre convention, if you were being charitable. You could call it fate, if you want to be Watsonian about it.

The mark of a good writer isn't that they don't do stuff like this, but that they can tell an interesting story even though you know it's happening.

You're right, it can work really well.

But the addendum to that is that it only really works when you are 100% accurate about the stuff the character is remembering.

That said... It wouldn't be the end of the world if Paragon/Renagade made a claim about a thing and another character told him "no that's wrong.".

AmericanNumbers · Jul 27, 2021

So yeah, I know the setup looks a bit bad for Diana taking on the "awakened, older demigod" bizarro version of herself but i think the fact that Diana is basically a Titan in story is a tiny bit of wrinkle.

Wait. A Gigantic one.

Darko · Jul 27, 2021

Chojin Patriarch said:
Renegade, stop poking the already annoyed demigoddess warrior princess. The resulting dopeslap would probably put you through a wall.

This is renegade were talking about here.

If he didn't annoy people that could hurt him then he'd be a different person, a much much smarter 9ne, but still different.

Chojin Patriarch said:
Probably asking as much for Astarte's benefit as his own curiosity. After all, she's lived this long (albeit aided by advanced technology,) who's to say her baby sister couldn't as well?

I think Astarte lived this long due to her divine heritage and not technology.

Chojin Patriarch said:
Meaning she was quite the war-monger in her prime. Presumably pre-retreat. Nice to now she's mellowed out over the millennia.

She may have been involved in more wars back then but she may not have been a war monger.

Chojin Patriarch said:
More family for the reunion!

Like a Primarch reunion.

Awful, awkward and an atrocity upon family values.

Chojin Patriarch said:
Just how dumb do you think they are?

Well she may think the renegade is very dumb, and she'd be right.

igfry · Jul 27, 2021

I quite like that these Earth heroes are just acting like they do on Earth, outside of Earth, and somehow expecting things to happen a certain way because...?

I'd call that arrogance if it wasn't just painful ignorance and I'm living for when it's being challenged.

The internal conflict is delicious.

If they want to inflict their own moralities upon the rest of the universe, they can't be fucking lazy about it.

Vaermina · Jul 27, 2021

Cuchulin said:
It would be fun to see how Paul would deal with this group.

He would be fine with them as long as they were helping his cause, probably even offer one of them a Ring.

Darko said:
Well she may think the renegade is very dumb, and she'd be right.

Yes... Yes she would...

Bramble Thorn · Jul 27, 2021

Ashaeron said:
What I'm concluding from this is that either Diana is going to leave earth for centuries, or she's going to abandon the rest of the sentient universe to these guys, or she ends up going with one of Grayvauls very renegade alternatives.

No what you should be getting out if this is that if you lived on one of the hundreds of planets the citizenry visited and harvested/exterminated all life (not sure if just intelligent life, just animal life, or absolutely all life) like a wandering Tyranid 'Nom Nom' fleet, you are not entitled to any justice or righteous vengeance, because Pretty Pretty Princess Diana decided you weren't, and enforcing the death penalty on the persons who killed you, your family, your friends, your neighbors, your countrymen, your entire species, is 'wrong'.

And she has given herself the right to pardon any atrocities committed upon you and within you lands on your behalf, on account of you not mattering and her not caring about you.

transhumansage · Jul 27, 2021

Mr Zoat said:
"The arena. Captain Astarte to all commanders. I have a challenger."

usually i would never root against WW but i hope she fails to reform them so grayven can go ahead and wipe them out.

Darko · Jul 27, 2021

Bramble Thorn said:
not sure if just intelligent life, just animal life, or absolutely all life

All life.

When renegade, Kanto and Artemis were investigating that planet the population and the animal life were all gone.

And to respond to your rant about Diana not caring about people....

You do realise that Diana does care about people?

It's kinda a big part of her character.

She wants justice to be done but she may not believe that killing people is the correct way to do it and thinks other methods can work better.

She's most likely wrong in this case, but to say that she doesn't care about others is just wrong on virtually every level.

Ngamer11 · Jul 27, 2021

Mr Zoat said:
I have the list at home. Let me see if I can find it in-story...

Darko said:
'The Lad' in this case is named Paul, and renegade still can't say his name.
Just in case you or anyone else was wondering who he was.

Thanks. I checked the link, and there were 2 more older female teens who weren't in the group due to the Renegade not being able to make a version of the don't eat people medicine he made/had made for the others.

Mr Zoat said:
I considered trying to sort out a camera system for Bethany and Mary, but I don't think that it would really be possible for them to learn the social interaction lessons properly that way. I've stuck them on duty monitoring my wildlife habitats, and generally doing whatever Jean wants them to do. As sexless creatures Genomorphs don't set them off, so that should be reasonably safe. Nothing else I can do that I'm not doing already. Assuming that things go well on Friday I'll ask Circe to have a go at fixing the two of them.

Mr Zoat said:
"Diana, I realise that you don't leave Earth all that often, but let me be very clear about this. Out here, all too often, this is what it's like. There is no universal law or accepted moral code. The Green Lantern Corps are a very small-" I hold up my right hand and hold my thumb and forefinger a small distance apart from one another. "-plaster over a ripped open ribcage. People like the Citizenry, like the psions, like the Citadel, like Apokolips, they do what they like and no one tries to stop them. Worlds burn, and if other places hear about it it's met with profound indifference. Space is vast and full of malevolence and it's by sheer chance that the Earth hasn't been snuffed out as the planet below us has."

I lean forward slightly, maintaining eye contact.

"The laws you're used to do not exist. The common moral standards you're used to do not exist. The fellowship between peoples you're used to does not exist. What we have here is a community of mass murdering cannibals. If you want to try to persuade them to take a course of action that doesn't result in the preponderance of them being dead? Fine. That will make them your responsibility, yours to stay with for as many years, decades, centuries even, that it takes to get them straightened out. Are you prepared to do that? Are you in for the long haul, or are you going to throw a speech at them and then leave them to it? Because I assure you that will not work."

"And that is why you want to kill them? Because you believe that is what it will take and don't believe that I am prepared to do what is necessary to ensure that it does not?"

"I want to kill them because I'd like to establish a baseline of morality and under the circumstances I don't think that exterminating a culture of genocidal cannibals is a particularly unreasonable thing to do. If you disagree with me then put. The. Work. In. Place your mark upon the universe and change it to better suit you. But don't assume that it'll just happen."

She looks at me, frustration giving way slightly to curiosity.

"Has that happened to you?"

"I was it happening to you."

I'm loving that the Renegade is getting Diana in particular to face some unfortunate truths about how life is in the universe.

Mr Zoat said:
I nod. "People don't rise to the top in this sort of society by doubting themselves or hesitating to use violence." Hm. "Hey, Astarte, do you have any children?"

"Yes. One daughter."

"Let me guess; you raised her the Spartan way and now she's some sort of crazy warrior champion."

"The Spartans were weak. Theana is the most vicious Citizen soldier we've ever raised. Every cruel impulse embodied in a single woman."

I grin. "Oh, a true granddaughter for Ares. How about it, Diana? Do you think you can talk her down? How is reforming Ares going?"

"I refuse to believe that any mortal woman can be that cruel."

I shake my head. But, hey, at least she's committing. "If you die, I'll include that optimistic quote in your funeral oration. So we're doing this?"

Again, Diana demonstrates both her idealism and naivete. Is this just her, or would her sisters on Themyscira feel the same as she does? Or maybe they'd agree with the Renegade and just kill them all because they're irredeemable?

I kinda hope that Diana loses, but proves her own point by getting at least a few to change their ways. Not a lot, but enough to at least prove that they are not all completely remorseless monsters.

Mr Zoat · Jul 27, 2021

Chojin Patriarch said:
Renegade, stop poking the already annoyed demigoddess warrior princess. The resulting dopeslap would probably put you through a wall.

No. Diana would not strike an ally.

Meaning she was quite the war-monger in her prime. Presumably pre-retreat. Nice to now she's mellowed out over the millennia.

No, but her mother was.

...the rope comes loose and Astarte rises to her feet...

Thank you, corrected.

Darko · Jul 27, 2021

Ngamer11 said:
Again, Diana demonstrates both her idealism and naivete. Is this just her, or would her sisters on Themyscira feel the same as she does? Or maybe they'd agree with the Renegade and just kill them all because they're irredeemable?

I'm betting they'd be fine with killing the Citizenry.

Diana's unique and different compared to the other Amazons since her value system may be a mix between the morality of the ancient world and what she has picked up from her decades in the modern world.

Ngamer11 said:
I kinda hope that Diana loses, but proves her own point by getting at least a few to change their ways. Not a lot, but enough to at least prove that they are not all completely remorseless monsters.

Some of them may be redeemable.

They may have joined the Citizenry to protect their worlds from destruction but hated doing the things the Citizenry did but they couldn't stop them.

deccan2008 · Jul 27, 2021

But why even eat people? Isn't that the most inefficient method of sustainance ever?

Stsword · Jul 27, 2021

deccan2008 said:
But why even eat people? Isn't that the most inefficient method of sustainance ever?

Largely because Astarte is cray-cray.

She locked her daughter in with a bunch of other kids when she was two.

She told them that every day they'd slide in enough food to feed all of them but one- If a child didn't die, then no food that day.

They didn't unlock the door until Theana was the last child alive.

Theana had formed a gang of the toddlers, and then when they were the only ones left she began killing her own subordinates.

NightmareWarden · Jul 27, 2021

Ashaeron said:
What I'm concluding from this is that either Diana is going to leave earth for centuries, or she's going to abandon the rest of the sentient universe to these guys, or she ends up going with one of Grayvauls very renegade alternatives.

How could Wonder Woman do this… I vote for "cryogenically freeze all of these psychos until the rest of the universe forgets about them and their sins." Don't unfreeze them until you have something like Ghost Rider's penance stare, a therapy/behavioral bootcamp plan prepped down to the second, and a bunch of oaths prepared that will see justice done to their souls should they breach their rehabilitation contracts sworn before Gaia.

No brainwashing. No personality death to re-embody a poor ghost. No "abandoning modern Earth" for these criminals. Push the problem away for now, you need to stack the deck HEAVILY to fix the debt these maniacs have accrued.

Phantom zone would work too if a reliable form of extraction is cooked up.

Stsword said:
Largely because Astarte is cray-cray.

She locked her daughter in with a bunch of other kids when she was two.

She told them that every day they'd slide in enough food to feed all of them but one- If a child didn't die, then no food that day.

They didn't unlock the door until Theana was the last child alive.

Theana had formed a gang of the toddlers, and then when they were the only ones left she began killing her own subordinates.

I'm surprised that hasn't been repurposed for a Worm fanfic. Soulless behavior.

Darko · Jul 27, 2021

deccan2008 said:
But why even eat people? Isn't that the most inefficient method of sustainance ever?

They may not care about efficiency.

This is just them doing it to prove that they're strong and those weaker than them are only good for food.

Stsword said:
Largely because Astarte is cray-cray.

She locked her daughter in with a bunch of other kids when she was two.

She told them that every day they'd slide in enough food to feed all of them but one- If a child didn't die, then no food that day.

They didn't unlock the door until Theana was the last child alive.

Theana had formed a gang of the toddlers, and then when they were the only ones left she began killing her own subordinates.

Also this.

NightmareWarden said:
I'm surprised that hasn't been repurposed for a Worm fanfic. Soulless behavior.

Given the sheer number of Worm fics out there, the chance of something like that being done is high.

AmericanNumbers · Jul 27, 2021

We know that this version of Diana has killed people before. I'm curious to see what her ultimate answer is going to be when dealing with a civilization that Paragon would have happily wiped as a blight on the universe.

Pinklestia · Jul 27, 2021

Darko said:
He'd be proud that at least one of his children is following in his footsteps of being a lunatic.

Even DC Ares admits that a War of total extermination is bad, sure he would get a short power boost but if the enemy is completely exterminated that means no more wars eventually.

Darko · Jul 27, 2021

Pinklestia said:
Even DC Ares admits that a War of total extermination is bad, sure he would get a short power boost but if the enemy is completely exterminated that means no more wars eventually.

True, but he'd still be probably more proud of Astarte compared to Hippolyta.

Darko · Jul 27, 2021

Mr Zoat said:
painfully oblivious

Mr Zoat said:
Diana frowns. "Oblivious..?

Maybe 'obvious'

Mr Zoat · Jul 27, 2021

Darko said:
Maybe 'obvious'

No, they're oblivious.

With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

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