With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[iamnuff]

I never really got this supposed Grandfather paradoxon in timetravel stories.

It doesn't matter if your past is altered, since to you it already happened.

If you travel somewhere and the street gets removed behind you you don't suddenly stop being where you are.

Click to shrink...

If you're still on that street when it goes, you might fall through the world though.

 

[Queshire]

But you aren't on that bridge. You already crossed it.



What? Of course you can just say your time machine leaves the ubiverse. It's all fictional after all.

And of course you can violate thermodynamics in fiction.

Click to shrink...

You're always on that bridge. It's infinitely long. It bridges from the past to the future. That bridge is... (pause for dramatic effect) Time.

 

[Coda]

Which is where things get crazy with ideas for 'wormholes', 'negative mass' and 'virtual particles' get really interesting. And Complicated. Head Hurtingly complicated.

Click to shrink...

There is one sound hypothetical means by which backwards time travel would be possible without resorting to superluminal velocities or nonphysical objects. It's similar to a wormhole, but it's not quite the same thing as the formal definition of "wormhole."

Basically... Nothing compels our universe to only have a single path along the temporal dimension. You can only go one direction along that axis, sure, but topologically that axis doesn't HAVE to be a straight line -- indeed, we know for a fact that it is not, but to date the only place we know of where it gets redirected far enough from straight to redefine where the future is... is inside the event horizon of a black hole.

But just because we've never seen it doesn't mean there CAN'T be a place in the universe where the path to the future intersects with the path from the past. We don't know of any mechanism -- not even hypothetically -- to create these circumstances, but it could exist naturally. This wouldn't exactly be practical time travel, because you might have to travel billions of light-years to get there, or you might have to wait a very long time. These are equivalent; time is just a kind of distance. The easiest case to describe would be the hypothetical case of a cyclic universe: it starts in a Big Bang, it ends in a Big Crunch, and if you could somehow survive through that whole thing you would see the exact same history repeat (but of course this means you were there last time to watch it happen then too).

 

[Sckarred]

Can the Time Trapper Paul go around and fix all the What If episodes? Most of them end terribly for no reason.

Click to shrink...

I guess it's more of a meta reason really. Can't have any of the alternate universes ending all that well otherwise people would want to see more of it and complain that the canon MCU isn't going that way. Best to ensure it all goes somewhat badly and the canon remains the preferred option for the majority

 

[Someguy Somewhere]

I don't agree with this argument. By definition "The Universe" is everything that exists. If you "leave the universe" then it just turns out that what you thought was the universe is actually just a single plane of existence within a larger universe. Conservation laws deal with closed systems. If you don't live in a closed system...

Click to shrink...

Hence the earlier comment of not being able to remove your part of space time from the universe, since it's existence is an indivisible part of the universe itself. The violations of conservation of matter and energy are just another reason why it wouldn't work even if you COULD do it.

 

[Handlewithcare]

You're always on that bridge. It's infinitely long. It bridges from the past to the future. That bridge is... (pause for dramatic effect) Time.

Click to shrink...

Okay, then thanks to the time machine you travel before the part that wobbles.

 

[Vaermina]

Can the Time Trapper Paul go around and fix all the What If episodes? Most of them end terribly for no reason.

Click to shrink...

No, because then celestial level beings would step in and curbstomp him.

 

[Jus4532]

I was assuming Paul would jump to necromancy as a resolution to the fixed point, considering his history.

Click to shrink...

I think that's a bad idea. It would work in the DC universe since Death of the Endless is pretty chill and would not care if people are resurrected since in the end, everyone will eventually meet her, but Death from the Marvel Universe is stricter and harsh on anyone who would resurrect people. It will likely make things even worse if Paul resorted to necromancy in a marvel universe.

 

[Caerwen]

So in this universe he had someone in the car with him?

Click to shrink...

"what if dr. strange lost his heart instead of his hands?" he is in the car with christine and the crash leads to her death instead of his injury.

 

[Mr Zoat]

11th September 2012
14:19 GMT

New Cronus is built into a crescent moon, like… Actually, it reminds me of the amulets from The Mysterious Cities of Gold, where the inner sun image slotted into the crescent moon outer. That can't be natural, but what possible reason could someone have for digging out a moon like that? Most of the city sits in the hollowed out part, with masts and veins sticking out through the rock for communications and shields. The city outwardly presents as ancient Greek, but there are clearly far more sophisticated elements. It's like someone copied the structures without any understanding of why they were the way they were.

"Feeling anything?"

Melinoë has looked mildly pained for the entire journey-. When she didn't think I was watching, anyway. Now she's craning her neck to take a closer look at the structure.

"It looks stupid."

"Or it's a display of power and security."

I mean, it's clearly not a warship. I can't see any guns, and from what my scans are telling me the shields are more the sort of thing you might expect from a space station in a relatively peaceful part of space. Not that I'd necessarily be able to detect any arcane defences, and I can't imagine anyone with Olympian heritage not having some sort of arcane protection.

Aporia looks it over, trying to come up with a better analysis.

"It looks like Olympus, a little."

I make an amused snort as I compare her description with that of her mistress.

Gaudia sneers. "They came up well short, then."

"To be fair, they're working in the material universe with mundane materials. They've done fairly well if the worst they did was come up short. Feeling any better?"

Both of them glance at Melinoë, who doesn't look at them, face impassive. After a moment to try and judge her mood, Aporia nods.

"A little better, thank you. Though obviously we aren't at anything like full power."

"Please keep me up to date. If you start to feel better or worse, I'd like to know about it."

Gaudia raises her left eyebrow.

"I'm sure we're grateful that you're so devoted to the wellbeing of beings thousands of years your senior, with far greater understanding of their own state of health than you have."

"While it's nice to be appreciated, it's more that we don't have good data on what happens when gods move between worlds. I'm hoping to write a study, and your feedback will be useful."

"Do we get a byline?"

"Hailing New Cronus. Illustres of the Orange Lantern Corps, Ambassador of Maltus, here as requested. I'm requesting landing instructions."

Aporia frowns.

"I wonder why they named it after Cronus? He certainly hasn't gone anywhere lately. They can't be his descendants."

"I thought that all Olympians were?"

"He ate his children. The only gods he sired who are alive today are the gods and goddesses Zeus freed. That means it's easy for us to trace them."

"If you think you've traced all the children Zeus sired, I've got a bridge I can sell-."

"Ambassador. Please approach the upper keep. We will signal for your approach."

Ring?

Language used was a recorded local language. Accent deviated from known standards by a comprehendible degree. Suggests mixing with native speakers from three other regions and relatively isolated.

But not Greek?

Correct. Not Greek.

My passengers and I fly closer, and the ring pings me as their sensors take their time to get a good look at us. Hm. Considering what sort of beings we're dealing with here, perhaps…

Ophidian.

Yes, my Agent?

Be with me. See through my eyes, hear with my ears, understand with my mind.

Happily, my Agent.

"What was-?"

I feel it as the Ophidian gives me her particular attention, my body becoming… Just a little unreal. My eyes glow as they used to when the orange light was in danger of overwhelming me and I know that under my armour my tattoos are lighting up.

Aporia and Gaudia are staring at me. Melinoë is pointedly looking away.

Aporia points at me in a hesitant manner. "No, seriously, what is that?"

"'That' is the Ophidian, Embodiment of Avarice." I shrug. "She likes me."

Aporia glances at Melinoë for guidance and gets an elbow from Gaudia.

"And… Ah, how are you doing that?"

"The Ophidian isn't technically a goddess. She's far more closely tied to the material universe via the desires of every sentient being."

"That's who you were-? Oh… Um. Okay."

We draw closer, and the scale of the place becomes a little more apparent. What I initially thought might be temples of some sort are actually amphitheatres, the roofs are a product of the artificial lighting that means they don't need to be open to the sky. Some are vast, Olympic size or larger. Which means that those are housing… Regular housing. And those are gardens? And those are palatial homes, six of them, and from where they're sited I'm going to assume that the residents either really like their views or can't stand each other.

And that's a plaza with lines of soldiers and a small group of teal-skinned locals in fancier clothing I assume are officials of some kind. Without other direction I approach, causing the four of us to land at the outer side of the plaza. Disconnecting from the trio of goddesses, I take a moment to look-.

Ow.

Okay, not doing that. These people are definitely under someone's protective aegis.

I proceed along the soldier-lined gangway, glancing at the improved magic detection system built into my right bracer. Yes, the armour is enchanted. Not to a high degree -Melinoë's armour is several degrees more powerful- but better than anything pre-arcane revolution produced by a mortal wizard.

The officials at the far end come forward a little way to greet us. Which is interesting. Normally they'd make the foreigner approach them to emphasise that they are the supplicant. But these people aren't in charge; they're functionaries, so the same rule doesn't apply.

"Welcome to New Cronus, Ambassador. Our masters and mistresses are assembling to receive you as we speak. Please, come with us. We will provide you and your companions with refreshment while you wait."

"Thank you. We shall."

 

[Prince Charon]

Can the Time Trapper Paul go around and fix all the What If episodes? Most of them end terribly for no reason.

Click to shrink...

The (Doylist) reason in the 'What if' comics often seems to be that it's a cheap way to say to complaining fans 'see, Earth-616 is really the best of all possible worlds, so shut up.' The cartoons may be that, or just bad writing. Well, also bad writing, because leaving no really good Watsonian justification for something decided on for entirely Doylist reasons is bad writing itself.

 

[Ngamer11]

I feel it as the Ophidian gives me her particular attention, my body becoming… Just a little unreal. My eyes glow as they used to when the orange light was in danger of overwhelming me and I know that under my armour my tattoos are lighting up.

Aporia and Gaudia are staring at me. Melinoë is pointedly looking away

Aporia points at me in a hesitant manner. "No, seriously, what is that?"

"'That' is the Ophidian, Embodiment of Avarice." I shrug. "She likes me."

Aporia glances at Melinoë for guidance and gets an elbow from Gaudia.

"And… Ah, how are you doing that?"

"The Ophidian isn't technically a goddess. She's far more closely tied to the material universe via the desires of every sentient being."

"That's who you were-? Oh… Um. Okay."

Click to shrink...

What are the odds that what Paul's currently doing with the Ophidian is significantly more intimate than what the minor goddesses propositioning him were offering? And that that's why they, and especially Melinoë, are reacting the way they are?

 

[Darko]

The city outwardly presents as ancient Greek, but there are clearly far more sophisticated elements. It's like someone copied the structures without any understanding of why they were the way they were

Click to shrink...

So it's most likely the Titan Seeds trying to emulate their benefactors.

Or the Titans just changed the design a bit.

anyone with Olympian heritage not have some sort of arcan

Click to shrink...

'to not have' or 'not having'

"I wonder why they named it after Cronus? He certainly hasn't gone anywhere lately. They can't be his descendants."

Click to shrink...

Unless he did something like the thing with Donna.

roofs a product of the artificial

Click to shrink...

'roof's a'

And those are palatial homes, six of them, and from where they're sited I'm going to assume that the residents either really like their views or can't stand each other.

Click to shrink...

Not surprising given that they're Greek, or at least descended from them.

companions with refreshment while you

Click to shrink...

'refreshments'

 

[Darko]

What are the odds that what Paul's currently doing with the Ophidian is significantly more intimate than what the minor goddesses propositioning him were offering? And that that's why they, and especially Melinoë, are reacting the way they are?

Click to shrink...

So they're basically watching him spiritually bang a godlike being and he doesn't realize this?

That's a very Paul thing to do.

 

[Sockmonkey]

OL's interactions with snarky goddesses are the best parts of this fic aside from when he was doing the "buddy cop" thing with John where they busted Doctor Gotham.

Haha. Reminds me of the little used theory of time travel from Gargoyles. Time cannot be altered as it tends to correct itself when people try, BUT stable time loops that alter perception can and do happen. The Archmagnus apparently died twice and had two of himself running around for awhile because his future self rescued his past self, then past AM became the future who rescues himself.

Click to shrink...

A better example of what OL is suggesting is in one of the later episodes where they bring someone who vanished and was thought dead into the present time moments before his supposed death.

What are the odds that what Paul's currently doing with the Ophidian is significantly more intimate than what the minor goddesses propositioning him were offering? And that that's why they, and especially Melinoë, are reacting the way they are?

Click to shrink...

Well, they have merged into a single entity before, so just sharing perceptions via soul touch is probably on the level of a quick blowjob or maybe dry humping.

 

[Mr Zoat]

'to not have' or 'not having'
'roof's a'

Click to shrink...

Thank you, corrected.

'refreshments'

Click to shrink...

No, that's correct.

 

[Ngamer11]

"'That' is the Ophidian, Embodiment of Avarice." I shrug. "She likes me."

Click to shrink...

Just realized that either that apostrophe at the beginning should have no space after it and be italicized, or both apostrophes should be removed.

 

[Chojin Patriarch]

11th September 2012
14:19 GMT

New Cronus is built into a crescent moon, like… Actually, it reminds me of the amulets from The Mysterious Cities of Gold, where the inner sun image slotted into the crescent moon outer. That can't be natural, but what possible reason could someone have for digging out a moon like that? Most of the city sits in the hollowed out part, with masts and veins sticking out through the rock for communications and shields. The city outwardly presents as ancient Greek, but there are clearly far more sophisticated elements. It's like someone copied the structures without any understanding of why they were the way they were.

Click to shrink...

Or more than a little of the starport city from Treasure Planet. I presume it's clear whether the supporting structure is natural or artificial... Either way, it smacks of showing off, the way they adopted such an extravagant presentation. So, much like their children, then.

Spoiler: Commentary spoilered for length

"Feeling anything?"

Melinoë has looked mildly pained for the entire journey-. When she didn't think I was watching, anyway. Now she's craning her neck to take a closer look at the structure.

Click to shrink...

Odd. I presume it's an effect of the avatar reduction. Was she like this last time she went off with OL (when she got her arm discombobulated?) Or is he just noticing it because he's looking for it?

"It looks stupid."

"Or it's a display of power and security."

Click to shrink...

When you can reshape a planetoid like that and not have it look foolish, people know you're powerful, eh?

I mean, it's clearly not a warship. I can't see any guns, and from what my scans are telling me the shields are more the sort of thing you might expect from a space station in a relatively peaceful part of space. Not that I'd necessarily be able to detect any arcane defences, and I can't imagine anyone with Olympian heritage not have some sort of arcane protection.

Click to shrink...

I would expect that those aboard would serve as the defences. Helios alone would do a number on attacking craft with a plasma stream...

Aporia looks it over, trying to come up with a better analysis.

"It looks like Olympus, a little."

I make an amused snort as I compare her description with that of her mistress.

Click to shrink...

Probably so they could claim the Olympians coped them, I bet.

Gaudia sneers. "They came up well short, then."

"To be fair, they're working in the material universe with mundane materials. They've done fairly well if the worst they did was come up short. Feeling any better?"

Click to shrink...

Indeed... When you live in a half-way realm adjacent to the dreaming, it's safe to assume physics takes a back seat to aesthetics.

Both of them glance at Melinoë, who doesn't look at them, face impassive. After a moment to try and judge her mood, Aporia nods.

"A little better, thank you. Though obviously we aren't at anything like full power."

Click to shrink...

...And just how great a difference is that, miss 'barely known to modern scholars'?

"Please keep me up to date. If you start to feel better or worse, I'd like to know about it."

Gaudia raises her left eyebrow.

"I'm sure we're grateful that you're so devoted to the wellbeing of beings thousands of years your senior, with far greater understanding of their own state of health than you have."

Click to shrink...

Oh, quit being such a bitch, young lady. Just because you're feeling a bit grumpy, no need to take it on on your host.

"While it's nice to be appreciated, it's more that we don't have good data on what happens when gods move between worlds. I'm hoping to write a study, and your feedback will be useful."

"Do we get a byline?"

Click to shrink...

Do test subjects usually get credit like that?

"Hailing New Cronus. Illustres of the Orange Lantern Corps, Ambassador of Maltus, here as requested. I'm requesting landing instructions."

Aporia frowns.

Click to shrink...

Realising he's a little higher placed than some callow mortal Hero, eh? Then again, compared to a Goddess...

"I wonder why they named it after Cronus? He certainly hasn't gone anywhere lately. They can't be his descendants."

"I thought that all Olympians were?"

Click to shrink...

That depends on which legends you subscribe to, I suppose. Like Aphrodite's birth...

"He ate his children. The only gods he sired who are alive today are the gods and goddesses Zeus freed. That means it's easy for us to trace them."

"If you think you've traced all the children Zeus sired, I've got a bridge I can sell-."

Click to shrink...

I doubt he's got a hope of beating out Genghis Khan in that respect...

"Ambassador. Please approach the upper keep. We will signal for your approach."

Ring?

Language used was a recorded local language. Accent deviated from known standards by a comprehendible degree. Suggests mixing with native speakers from three other regions and relatively isolated.

Click to shrink...

Hmm... Interesting. The Titans are using locals as staff, obviously.

But not Greek?

Correct. Not Greek.

Click to shrink...

Given 'Greek' is quite a spread of languages in the time they would have been present on Earth... If it can be compared to modern Greek at all...

My passengers and I fly closer, and the ring pings me as their sensors take their time to get a good look at us. Hm. Considering what sort of beings we're dealing with here, perhaps…

Ophidian.

Yes, my Agent?

Click to shrink...

Ooh, calling in Best Snek for backup? Sensible, and likely to give your hosts a greater respect for your capabilities...

Be with me. See through my eyes, hear with my ears, understand with my mind.

Happily, my Agent.

Click to shrink...

Ah, cuddle time.

"What was-?"

I feel it as the Ophidian gives me her particular attention, my body becoming… Just a little unreal. My eyes glow as they used to when the orange light was in danger of overwhelming me and I know that under my armour my tattoos are lighting up.

Click to shrink...

I bet his rings just jumped up to full charge too. Because letting her Agent go into a situation without all the power at his disposal would be weak.

Aporia and Gaudia are staring at me. Melinoë is pointedly looking away

Aporia points at me in a hesitant manner. "No, seriously, what is that?"

Click to shrink...

What, never seen raw Avarice this up close and personal, honey? I thought you were a goddess of Desire.

"'That' is the Ophidian, Embodiment of Avarice." I shrug. "She likes me."

Aporia glances at Melinoë for guidance and gets an elbow from Gaudia.

Click to shrink...

Now, does she want a slice of that, or is she terrified shitless (well, metaphorically and spiritually speaking...)

"And… Ah, how are you doing that?"

"The Ophidian isn't technically a goddess. She's far more closely tied to the material universe via the desires of every sentient being."

Click to shrink...

It's a much purer form of things than she's seen before, I suspect. Might want to point out that wearing a Power Ring gives the Embodiment a channel right into your soul...

"That's who you were-? Oh… Um. Okay."

Click to shrink...

Ah, yes. That's the sound of someone realising she was poking someone much more powerful than she thought at first.

We draw closer, and the scale of the place becomes a little more apparent. What I initially thought might be temples of some sort are actually amphitheatres, the roofs a product of the artificial lighting that means they don't need to be open to the sky. Some are vast, Olympic size or larger. Which means that those are housing… Regular housing. And those are gardens? And those are palatial homes, six of them, and from where they're sited I'm going to assume that the residents either really like their views or can't stand each other.

Click to shrink...

Why not both? And I presume those are the homes of the Titans themselves, six married pairs.

And that's a plaza with lines of soldiers and a small group of teal-skinned locals in fancier clothing I assume are officials of some kind. Without other direction I approach, causing the four of us to land at the outer side of the plaza. Disconnecting from the trio of goddesses, I take a moment to look-.

Ow.

Click to shrink...

At least you've got a respectable welcoming committee.

Okay, not doing that. These people are definitely under someone's protective aegis.

I proceed along the soldier-lined gangway, glancing at the improved magic detection system built into my right bracer. Yes, the armour is enchanted. Not to a high degree -Melinoë's armour is several degrees more powerful- but better than anything pre-arcane revolution produced by a mortal wizard.

Click to shrink...

And now I imagine it having a row of magical gauges running along the inside of the forearms, like he's got a dozen wristwatches tied there...

The officials at the far end come forward a little way to greet us. Which is interesting. Normally they'd make the foreigner approach them to emphasise that they are the supplicant. But these people aren't in charge; they're functionaries, so the same rule doesn't apply.

Click to shrink...

And since the Titans are the ones approaching the Maltusians... Yes, the rules of Hospitality get a little uncertain, I suspect.

"Welcome to New Cronus, Ambassador. Our masters and mistresses are assembling to receive you as we speak. Please, come with us. We will provide you and your companions with refreshment while you wait."

"Thank you. We shall."

Click to shrink...

How polite. And entirely as expected. No doubt the Titans are watching him as they speak, trying to take his measure...

And so the diplomatic mission begins proper. I expect tomorrow will see the Titans make their actual appearance. I wonder if the lady Goddesses are reconsidering their idea to get recruited, in the face of seeing just what they'll be working for and with. That little bureaucratic job not looking so bad now, is it, girls?

 

[Handlewithcare]

"Do we get a byline?"

Oooooh, someone's been in the academic system.

Hire them Paul. Their desire to do anything but publish-or-perish will make them the most powerful OLs out there.

OL's interactions with snarky goddesses are the best parts of this fic aside from when he was doing the "buddy cop" thing with John where they busted Doctor Gotham.

Click to shrink...

I miss Constantine

Maybe these are actually gods/goddesses freed from Cronus as well, who where banished from Olympos?

 

[Darko]

Odd. I presume it's an effect of the avatar reduction. Was she like this last time she went off with OL (when she got her arm discombobulated?) Or is he just noticing it because he's looking for it?

Click to shrink...

The last time she went into space she was still in Earth's solar system, but now she's not.

That may explain why she's weaker.

Probably so they could claim the Olympians coped them, I bet.

Click to shrink...

Well if these are the Titans then the Olympians kinda did copy them.

I doubt he's got a hope of beating out Genghis Khan in that respect...

Click to shrink...

I think Zeus would consider Genghis an amateur.

Ooh, calling in Best Snek for backup? Sensible, and likely to give your hosts a greater respect for your capabilities...

Click to shrink...

Though the Titans may be able to fight her.

Oceanus seemed to be able to handle Ion when they fought.

Now, does she want a slice of that, or is she terrified shitless (well, metaphorically and spiritually speaking...)

Click to shrink...

Maybe both.

How polite. And entirely as expected. No doubt the Titans are watching him as they speak, trying to take his measure...

Click to shrink...

Though with the tattoos they may not be able to scry him.

However technological ways of viewing may work.

 

[Doccer]

And now I imagine it having a row of magical gauges running along the inside of the forearms, like he's got a dozen wristwatches tied there...

Click to shrink...

That would be very useful for detecting different types and strengths of magic. Perhaps even intent too?

 

[Bud-E]

"While it's nice to be appreciated, it's more that we don't have good data on what happens when gods move between worlds. I'm hoping to write a study, and your feedback will be useful."

"Do we get a byline?"

"Hailing New Cronus. Illustres of the Orange Lantern Corps, Ambassador of Maltus, here as requested. I'm requesting landing instructions."

Click to shrink...

I think that's a no?

 

[Mr Zoat]

Just realized that either that apostrophe at the beginning should have no space after it and be italicized, or both apostrophes should be removed.

Click to shrink...

I disagree.

 

[Vaermina]

And Paragon shows why he should be allowed to design anything... Ever... Because if he had his way everyone would be living underground in reinforced concrete bunkers.

 

[moralrelativity]

Just realized that either that apostrophe at the beginning should have no space after it and be italicized, or both apostrophes should be removed.

Click to shrink...

There isn't a space after it. It just looks like there is one due to the italics.

 

[ZzzSlothzzZ]

That's who you were-? Oh… Um. Okay."

Click to shrink...

Snakes and spiders and Cheshire

Oh My!

Click to shrink...

Space gossip rags have a whole column Sealed Section devoted to OL Love life.

By Tartarus he probably warrants his own magazine.

So many shenanigans.

 

[Silveraith]

Aporia and Gaudia are staring at me. Melinoë is pointedly looking away

Click to shrink...

There should be a period at the end of this sentence.

 

[Old Knife]

"That's who you were-? Oh… Um. Okay."

Click to shrink...

Someone's feeling a LEETLE inadequate.

 

[Assblaster5000]

And Paragon shows why he should be allowed to design anything... Ever... Because if he had his way everyone would be living underground in reinforced concrete bunkers.

Click to shrink...

How dare you insult every RimWorld player like that? Mr Streamer burns himself enough already.

 

[AverusBlack]

Zoat, if Larfleeze's ring was partially in the Honden in a way that Paul was capable of re-substantiating it, does that mean Teekl is in the Honden someplace, waiting for Paul to do the same thing to her?

He only really became aware of the Honden after leaving Earth, didn't he?