With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Queshire · Jan 17, 2022

Well saying that it could destroy the sun might be a bit much, but the whole point is that Rainbow didn't know for certain.

EDIT: Pegasi are sky. It was the unicorns that handled the celestial bodies.

Vaermina · Jan 17, 2022

Queshire said:
Well saying that it could destroy the sun might be a bit much, but the whole point is that Rainbow didn't know for certain.

Yes... If you ignore the simple fact she would have been able to see/sense the magic of the rings and know whether that was a possibility or not...

w34v3r · Jan 17, 2022

Vaermina said:
Because she's a Pegasus not an Earth Pony.

Which means in non "Grayven is right lecture land" she would have had the basic knowledge of magic necessary to tell at a glance that the rings in question couldn't have done that.

I'm sorry, since when do they teach about ancient artifacts nobody believes actually exist as part of the standard pegasi lessons? And given how skilled earth ponies are at general craftiness why don't they get similar lessons on NOT destroying unknown magical objects?

I mean, do pegasi have the ability to read enchantments and I just never noticed?

Old Knife · Jan 17, 2022

I have become invested in new plot. Lead on good pony.

egooo · Jan 17, 2022

Vaermina said:
Yes... If you ignore the simple fact she would have been able to see/sense the magic of the rings and know whether that was a possibility or not...

Okay, dial back for a moment.
The canonicity of the claim they can 'sense' magic aside (whatever, it's fanfiction), how would a weatherpony reasonably know the arcane system well enough to identify what the artifact isn't unless it was specifically about weather?

Chojin Patriarch · Jan 17, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
27th September 2012
05:52 GMT -7

I've had the local villages under observation for a few days, and it seems that the adults at least make a point of rising just before dawn for what looks like a morning prayer. It's fascinating that a pony culture almost entirely disconnected from mainstream Equestrian society exists so close to Equestria-proper.

I suppose it's due to the transportation-.

Yeah, Ponies seem really disinclined to worry about anything outside of their herd's territory. In modern terms, their town or city. Probably some kind of instinct tied to their nature as equines. If the threat isn't immediately visible, then surely it no longer exists...

"Euuuaaarghghuhhh!"

Raindow Dash yawns loudly next to me, sitting on her haunches and stretching out her forelegs and wings.

...She really doesn't do well with mornings, does she?

"Miss Dash." I gaze at her reproachfully. "Please remove your feathers from my nostril."

Her wing jerks back. "Ew." She takes a moment to check the snot-free condition of her feathers before ruffling her wings and returning them to her flanks. "Why'd you make me get up this early, anyway? Who are these ponies?"

Well, Ahuizotl had to get goons from somewhere... It's not like there's a rent-a-thug agency for this sort of thing.

"Based on their cutie marks and their injuries, these are some of the ponies who were holding Miss Do captive in the fort."

"Hm." She looks up in the air for a moment, then tilts her head downwards, frowning as she tries to puzzle something out. "So… You're not here to arrest anyone."

...Actually do Pony communities even have police, other than something like the Royal Guard? I would assume smaller communities have some manner of shire reeve... I would have to assume larger communities like Manehattan have a police force.

"No crime has been committed either in a place administered by me, or in Equestria."

"Ah, pretty sure taking control of the sun is a crime."

Against who? Celestia?

I say nothing for a moment, then raise my head to its full height and turn my head in the direction of distant Canterlot.

"I mean… I could arrest Celestia. I don't think Luna would appreciate it, mind."

Ah, comedic overreaction... For when you really need to drive a point home.

"What?" Miss Dash frowns at me, this time. "What do you mean, 'arrest Celestia'?"

"You said that taking control of the sun is a crime. I take it that after the events of our initial meeting you've taken the time to read up on Equestrian law, and thus have become aware that-."

Pfff, ha ha, no.

"Okay, stop." She holds up her right forehoof. "Stop."

I stop.

Hopefully while giving her a look so laden with smug, you'd think a Lizard was giving it.

"Celestia controls the sun. I mean, usually."

I nod. "That's been true for at least a thousand years, certainly."

I mean, it is kind of her thing, these days. Even if managing it only really takes a few minutes at a time.

"A thousand-? Oh, right, the Heathwarming thing about unicorns doing it."

"But as we established with the Diamond Dogs..?"

"Ah, Celestia can't give ponies something she doesn't own? So she doesn't own the sun?"

Oh, she can learn!

"It's tricky to see what legal system would apply. Equestria doesn't have any off-world stations or starships, so it's difficult to see how you could make an exclusive claim to this star system. And without that, there's no obvious reason why Equestria should be the nation which decides who the sun belongs to."

"Aside from the face that Celestia controls it and has done for a thousand years."

Which probably makes the times when things get a little confused in Equestria (Like the Tirek crisis) concerning for other nations...

"The stones that fort were made of had been there for a while. If it was over a thousand years old, who's to say that they don't have a prior claim?"

Yeah, there they go. Ponies leaving their huts and heading to the area in front of the chief's hut. Just as they have each day since the g-elves found this village.

Heck, for all anyone knows, they handled the workings of the Sun long, long before Discord's little period of misrule.

"Are you saying Celestia stole it?"

"No. I'm saying that given how bad historical records from that era are, we have no way to establish any sort of chain of custody and thus cannot establish ownership. Celestia has discharged her duties as custodian well enough that the planet hasn't burned or frozen, but that doesn't mean it's hers."

Though she could probably make a good legal case under the logic of 'Well, no-one else was taking care of it...'

Miss Dash stares at me. Then she closes her eyes, raises her forehooves and presses them to either side of her head. I carry on watching the villagers as the… Chief comes out and joins the front of the herd as the sun first over the horizon and then over the canopy. As one, the village bows, stays bowed for about five seconds, then rises and begins to go about their day.

"You-. You're good at finding things that are wrong with things. Isn't that right?"

My god, you actually made her double-facepalm... Er, face-hoof. Well done!

"I have an instinct for the proper discharge of personal responsibilities, certainly."

"Do you..? Not like Celestia?"

Well, that would make dating her sister kind of awkward.

"I'm indifferent to her. Personally, she's quite pleasant. Professionally, she-."

"You want her to have time off 'cause you don't like how she handles the sun! Admit it!"

No, Dash, this is not out of jealousy.

"Okay. That's part of it."

"What's there not to like about it?!"

...Huh. Maybe it is, just a little, then?

"If, say… Five years ago? Chrysalis infiltrated Canterlot, launched her invasion and killed Celestia, what would have happened with the sun?"

"Ahhhhhhhhhhh… I guess.. it.. would stop moving? Or maybe Chrys-. Wait, Princess Celestia can die?"

I think Chrysalis would need a lot more love energy to manage that. If she even cared to.

"How do you want to test that?"

"Oh." She looks away. "Yeah."

Yes, never experiment when your test subjects are not numerous enough to have a breeding population.

"My kind can die. At least in our normal forms. We don't age, we're tough and our technology is first rate, but we can be killed, even with conventional weapons. I've been assuming that since Starswirl's Mirror rendered me as an alicorn they were about as tough; very, but not insurmountably so. I have a Last Will and Testament. Should I die, I know who will have guardianship of my children and who will be charged with continuing my work."

"Celestia doesn't… Have any foals…" She frowns. "I think. But… Yeah, who would have controlled the sun? Can… Cadance do it?"

I mean... It's been a thousand years. And she started out as a relatively normal pony. Who's to say there wasn't a special somepony long ago? Though such a pony would likely be remembered, if Celestia had anything to say about it...

"I don't think so, but I haven't asked. And I don't know about Twilight Sparkle, but Sunset specifically told me that she wasn't taught how to manage the sun while she was Celestia's student. And hasn't been taught since her return and ascension. Luna told me that she can, but she really wouldn't want to."

"So we… We might actually need it. The fort.. ring things. I mean, I don't want to need it, because something would have to have happened to the princesses. But… It's, like, the whole world."

I mean, it might well require a certain level of power that freshly elevated Alicorns can't produce. Even if a young alicorn is equal to a hundred Unicorns... What if it took two hundred to move the sun? Three hundred?

I nod, pleased. "Well done, Miss Dash. You'd be surprised how many people struggle with that lesson."

"I thought you were gunna complain about me destroying it just 'cause it was old." She looks genuinely distressed. "But you mean that you don't think it could override Celestia unless Celestia wasn't there."

Unfortunately, since it never got activated, we'll never know...

"Something like that."

"I coulda destroyed the world when I broke those rings."

Gee, you think? Really got to think before you smash, little pony.

"Yes, but that's a secondary issue."

"Huh?"

Boy, your point must be lofty if it can fly over a pegasus' head.

"Did you know what destroying the rings did in advance?"

"Stop Ahuizotl?"

...You could have managed that simply by breaking one. Either it's irreplacable, or he has to spend time remaking it. Either way, his plan is foiled.

"Given that you believed that they had the power to control the sun, did you know for certain that their destruction would not destroy it?"

Miss Dash freezes. Just for a moment.

...Oooh, that's a loud silence.

"No. I didn't."

"Celestia could move the sun back. Beat up Ahuizotl and his followers and Twilight Sparkle could probably have worked out how to use the rings to put the sun back in the right place. I hear she's quite good at magic. Destroy it and you better be lucky, because if you're not, bad things happen."

As opposed to destroying a valuable artefact of pre-Equestrian civilisation that could have benefited from having Unicorn scholars study it...

Miss Dash gulps. "Yeah."

"Virtuous actions guard against ill fortune. Don't destroy things unless you have to; you might need them. Don't hurt people you don't need to; same reason. If you don't know what's going on, then learn, so you don't do something stupid by mistake. And that's why-."

And that's what Grayven tries to do: keep the big picture in mind. ...Doesn't always work for him, because Grayven, but hey...

"You wanna talk to them, so you can talk to Ahuizotl. 'cause… We don't even really know why he wanted to control the sun, and those guys down there seem to really like it. So they can't have been trying to destroy it."

I nod approvingly. "Yes. Let's go and talk to them."

At least she's reasonably quick on the uptake when you lay it out straight like that.

Well, this is a treat. Always amusing to see Grayven teaching one of the Mane Six a lesson about unfamiliar and complicated subjects. Is it just me, or is he taking Dash under his wing, so to speak? Looking to shape some new minions on the Pony world? Or just, y'know, stop a foolhardy lunk-head from doing something everyone might regret...

Cuchulin · Jan 17, 2022

Vaermina said:
Yes... If you ignore the simple fact she would have been able to see/sense the magic of the rings and know whether that was a possibility or not...

I'm sorry? Is Rainbow supposed to be a graduate of the school for gifted unicorns?

w34v3r said:
I'm sorry, since when do they teach about ancient artifacts nobody believes actually exist as part of the standard pegasi lessons? And given how skilled earth ponies are at general craftiness why don't they get similar lessons on NOT destroying unknown magical objects?
I mean, do pegasi have the ability to read enchantments and I just never noticed?

Agreed, further Rainbow Dash is pretty consistently shown to be book dumb. Brilliant at handling the weather and highspeed movement, not so much at anything else.

Darko · Jan 17, 2022

Chojin Patriarch said:
Yeah, Ponies seem really disinclined to worry about anything outside of their herd's territory. In modern terms, their town or city. Probably some kind of instinct tied to their nature as equines. If the threat isn't immediately visible, then surely it no longer exists...

A fairly human like quality.

Chojin Patriarch said:
mean... It's been a thousand years. And she started out as a relatively normal pony. Who's to say there wasn't a special somepony long ago? Though such a pony would likely be remembered, if Celestia had anything to say about it

Unless their relationship didn't end in good terms and Celestia saw no reason to make sure he was remembered.

Or maybe said pony didn't want to be remembered.

Chojin Patriarch said:
I mean, it might well require a certain level of power that freshly elevated Alicorns can't produce. Even if a young alicorn is equal to a hundred Unicorns... What if it took two hundred to move the sun? Three hundred

Or it may require that the Alicorn in question be connected to what they're controlling.

Celestia and Luna both have celestial bodies as cutie marks, so they're specialized in controlling them.

Others don't have them.

Chojin Patriarch said:
You could have managed that simply by breaking one. Either it's irreplacable, or he has to spend time remaking it. Either way, his plan is foiled.

True, but by breaking all of them it would take him much more time to make new ones, if he could, and thus he wouldn't be able to do much damage during that time.

And even if he needed all of them to control the sun to its fullest, it may have been possible to still manipulate it a bit with the rest, so by destroying them all she robbed him of any power.

khansy · Jan 17, 2022

Vaermina said:
Yes... If you ignore the simple fact she would have been able to see/sense the magic of the rings and know whether that was a possibility or not...

Disputing someone's headcanon with your own headcanon isn't really a sound argument.

Wivk · Jan 17, 2022

Reminds me of the solar panel adds on infowars.com "the government doesnt own the sun yet!"

Lazurman · Jan 17, 2022

No One:

Not A Single Soul:

Grayven: "Yo, who da fuck owns the sun?"

Mr Zoat · Jan 17, 2022

Darko said:
Maybe 'as the sun flies over'

Thank you, corrected.

Not according to Hinon.

The Renegade doesn't have all that much to do with her.

Xmaster3000 · Jan 17, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
"Aside from the face that Celestia controls it and has done for a thousand years."

Maybe "fact" instead of "face"?

Fouredged · Jan 17, 2022

Lazurman said:
No One:

Not A Single Soul:

Grayven: "Yo, who da fuck owns the sun?"

Our world had to sit down and sort that one out before we even put a man into space. We too decided that nobody owns celestial bodies.

Pinklestia · Jan 17, 2022

Vaermina said:
Yes... If you ignore the simple fact she would have been able to see/sense the magic of the rings and know whether that was a possibility or not...

Ponies only have genetic knowledge of the very barebones their species can do, like pegasus know how to fly, earth ponies know how to farm and unicorns can figure telekinesis on their own... eventually.

Anything else that's not cutie mark/special talent granted knowledge? They have to LEARN it.

We know for example that specific Earth Pony farming techniques, Zap Apples for example, have to be learned or at least figured out. That you need to go to a school to learn how to manipulate weather as a pegasus and that unicorns need to put time and effort to learn most spells.

Rafin · Jan 17, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
"No. I'm saying that given how bad historical records from that era are, we have no way to establish any sort of chain of custody and thus cannot establish ownership. Celestia has discharged her duties as custodian well enough that the planet hasn't burned or frozen, but that doesn't mean it's hers."

And this fool calls himself god of conquest? By this metric nobody owns any piece of land, let alone has sovereignty over it. Celestia has been the sole controller of the local sun. It rises and sets at her pleasure. She owns it more than anyone present in this forum ever owned anything. The only person who could disagree with this assessment is Celestia herself.

Mr Zoat · Jan 17, 2022

Xmaster3000 said:
Maybe "fact" instead of "face"?

Thank you, corrected.

Rafin said:
And this fool calls himself god of conquest? By this metric nobody owns any piece of land, let alone has sovereignty over it. Celestia has been the sole controller of the local sun. It rises and sets at her pleasure. She owns it more than anyone present in this forum ever owned anything. The only person who could disagree with this assessment is Celestia herself.

By that standard, Discord owns the sun. He controlled it before she did and has demonstrated the ability to take it back whenever he can be bothered.

States are generally assumed to exert legal supremacy within their geographic boundaries. They're generally assumed not to exert it beyond them. When there's an dispute of ownership within a country, the systems to resolve that dispute exist, and it will usually be the case that all claimants are at least in theory subject to the same rules. That isn't the case for things outside that geographic territory. The God of Conquest does not allow astronomers [to claim celestial objects] that someone else is living in.

preier · Jan 17, 2022

Rafin said:
And this fool calls himself god of conquest?

Yes? It's been a long time but it was explicitly stated that he chose to be Conquest in the 'become legitimate in the eye of those who once did not recognize you' sense rather than the 'kill everyone so no one can contest your claim' sense.

Doccer · Jan 17, 2022

Thought it was to bring the heat for 800 years?

WereDragon · Jan 17, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
snip

1) Grayven has spent quite some time in previous updates complaining about how unnecessary the whole 'manually direct the sun' thing is, with the implication that the star system is as standard and that they could just have everything orbit as normal.
Now he is going out of his way to ensure their 'unnecessary' system continues to be used.

2) Dash and Do did not, in fact, make any attempt to destroy the artefact and surrounding temple. They dismantled the active part and the whole thing self-destructed. Blame the designers, not the end users.

Ngamer11 · Jan 17, 2022

Mr Zoat, I was rereading part of the story and found these errors on one part.

Mr Zoat said:
As expected, Brand is waiting outside of his quarters. I don't know if he was waiting for me, or waiting for Dox to allow him in. He spots me at once, but doesn't show any overt sign of surprise at my arrival.

Mr Zoat said:
"Brand, what happened? One moment Dox was in fine fettle, then radio silence."

Mr Zoat said:
I step inside, Brand following immediately behind. The door shuts a second later.

These should all say 'Brande'.

Mr Zoat · Jan 17, 2022

Ngamer11 said:
Mr Zoat, I was rereading part of the story and found these errors on one part.

These should all say 'Brande'.

Thank you, corrected.

WereDragon said:
1) Grayven has spent quite some time in previous updates complaining about how unnecessary the whole 'manually direct the sun' thing is, with the implication that the star system is as standard and that they could just have everything orbit as normal.
Now he is going out of his way to ensure their 'unnecessary' system continues to be used.

It is unnecessary, in much the same way that, for example, nuclear power is unnecessary. That doesn't mean that it's a good idea to take a sledgehammer to a nuclear pile.

2) Dash and Do did not, in fact, make any attempt to destroy the artefact and surrounding temple. They dismantled the active part and the whole thing self-destructed. Blame the designers, not the end users.

They had a pile of rings that were going to create a magic effect, and they removed parts. Even if they hadn't just broken the rings, that would still count.

mastermenthe · Jan 17, 2022

Mr Zoat I am, as always, very impressed at how well you can capture Rainbow Dash's voice, timing, and priorities!

I dread to see you write Fluttershy though. I can't imagine you pulling her off at all without writing her out of the scene entirely.

WaleXdraK · Jan 17, 2022

Vaermina said:
Because she's a Pegasus not an Earth Pony.

Which means in non "Grayven is right lecture land" she would have had the basic knowledge of magic necessary to tell at a glance that the rings in question couldn't have done that.

She is indeed a Pegasus, a specie whose only magic is weather manipulation and nothing else, Dash was never shown as a genius at that either so i don't see why she could understand unknown spellwork of that complexity with only a glance…..

Vaermina · Jan 17, 2022

WaleXdraK said:
She is indeed a Pegasus, a specie whose only magic is weather manipulation and nothing else, Dash was never shown as a genius at that either so i don't see why she could understand unknown spellwork of that complexity with only a glance…..

Because you're talking about a conceptual link to the sun of a level where what happens to one would impact the other.

Something like that would, forgive the pun, burn like the sun, to anyone with even a nascent magical sense.

Or to put it simply, it would be like asking someone to determine if a working lightbulb is on or off by looking at it. IE, utterly simple.

WaleXdraK · Jan 17, 2022

Vaermina said:
Because you're talking about a conceptual link to the sun of a level where what happens to one would impact the other.

Something like that would, forgive the pun, burn like the sun, to anyone with even a nascent magical sense.

Or to put it simply, it would be like asking someone to determine if a working lightbulb is on or off by looking at it. IE, utterly simple.

You make a lot of assumptions about how the MLP magic system work my dude, also the comparison with a working lightbulb make no sense because while indeed it should be easy to see that a spellwork like that use a lot of energy that doesn't mean you understand why it need that energy if your aren't familiar with the spell or magic theory, spell are hardly as obvious as just turning the light on.

Deadring · Jan 17, 2022

khansy said:
Disputing someone's headcanon with your own headcanon isn't really a sound argument.

You new or sumthin'? That's literally all Vaermina does; "This story doesn't line up perfectly with my headcanon, therefore it is bad and wrong and all fiction should be how I want it to be"

I would have blocked them a while ago, but I like the coherency of knowing what people are arguing about.

Rafin · Jan 17, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
The God of Conquest does not allow astronomers that someone else is living in.

This sentence seems to be missing something. Or I am unable to parse it for some other reason.

In any case, I didn't know that Discord can overpower Celestia at any time with relative ease. Never actually watched the show.

As for the borders thing, Celestia can enforce her rule across the whole solar system. Due to her aforementioned control of the sun. And ultimately it is the power to enforce rules that makes things like borders and jurisprudence and legal systems a thing. If Celestia's policy was to have hegemony over the sun's movements in the whole system then Canterlot's stance in international politics would essentially be that she owns it, regardless of which land borders one currently resides in as they are being warmed by it.

preier said:
Yes? It's been a long time but it was explicitly stated that he chose to be Conquest in the 'become legitimate in the eye of those who once did not recognize you' sense rather than the 'kill everyone so no one can contest your claim' sense.

Celestia has definitely become the legitimate overlord of the sun in the eyes of anyone with diplomatic relations to Canterlot. It's been the enduring empire's provable stance that their monarch is the lone controller of the sun since before Wales was conquered by England.

Wivk · Jan 17, 2022

Fouredged said:
Our world had to sit down and sort that one out before we even put a man into space. We too decided that nobody owns celestial bodies.

Yet, no one owns them yet. There was a time people thought that no one owned -or could own- rain, then a guy built a rain catcher to get his own water from the sky for free. He was motivated to do so by mismanagement of ground water by government leading to massive droughts and draconian water conservation policies but no slow down on bottling and export by large corporations. Shortly afterwards the government declared that they own the rain and it was illegal for him to gather any that fell on his property, took his property without compensating him, and put him into prison.

One day the government mismanagement of energy and draconian conversation policies will drive enough people off grid with solar and wind that very similar declarations will be made in regards to them. I have seen kids taken away from homesteaders over stuff like this, and laws already passed that require fully self suficient homes still have to be wired into the grid. From there to declaring you a thief for stealing the light and warmth that happens to land on you isnt an insurmountable gap fot governments to over reach.

Bud-E · Jan 18, 2022

Mr Zoat was it ever said what happened to Demon-possessed Superman now that he is free? Did he kill himself? cause I can't see any version of Superman able to live with the knowledge they destroyed the world and subjugated the world to unimaginable horrors.

With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

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