With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Syphi · Mar 23, 2022

Canis' thoughts: OH boy, deicide!

And wow does Zeus push Paul's button

Darko · Mar 23, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
"He's King of the Olympians, a pantheon of gods worshipped by the inhabitants of one small and insignificant island in the Aegean Sea

Harsh.

Mr Zoat said:
When encountered like this, he's fairly weak."

Noriel frowns. "Weak?"

"To be precise, mildly superhuman strength and endurance, and some ability to manipulate electricity. Everyone here with their normal equipment could take him down. That is because gods can't maintain strong avatars in the material world for long without a great deal of effort and assistance, and Zeus doesn't have enough worshippers to pull it off."

I thought she'd know that.

Though I guess pagan gods may not have been an interest for her.

Mr Zoat said:
Who are Zeus's enemies?"

Raquel straightens slightly. "The Titans, right? Cronus, and… Whoever."

Yeah, but they could be just as bad if not worse than Zeus.

Mr Zoat said:
him before any sort we've finished planning our

Remove 'any sort'

Mr Zoat said:
And Plutus wouldn't want to unmask his avatar."

And he'd also probably be easily defeated by Zeus.

Mr Zoat said:
has seen a minor resurgence lately he

'lately, he'

Mr Zoat said:
and Canis is smiling in expectation. Probably a bad sign.

No shit.

crazygrox · Mar 23, 2022

I almost feel like this is someone synchronity highwaying Paul away from looking for Constantine.
But that shouldn't work on him.

Only one I think could pull distractions like this is boss Smiley.

Vaermina · Mar 23, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
26th October 2012
22:29 GMT -5

Man... Paragon's coming off as really pathetic here...

And what's worse? He's breaking his word to someone who's domain is Truth.

Mr Zoat · Mar 23, 2022

Ngamer11 said:
That seems like it's missing something. I think you should add 'them', making it: "any way to threaten them".
You previously spelled his name as 'Ploutus'. Is this a change that you want to make, or a mistake?

Darko said:
Remove 'any sort'
'lately, he'

Thank you, corrected.

Ngamer11 · Mar 23, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
Thank you, corrected.

Sorry, looks like I made a mistake myself. You previously used 'Ploutos', not Ploutus'. So it should have 2 o's and 1 u. I double checked by using the story only thread to make sure.

Vaermina · Mar 23, 2022

Ngamer11 said:
What are the odds Canis knows or suspects what would happen if Zeus is killed and is hoping that he can see it in person?

Given one of the options for Zeus dying is "Darkseid get's a huge power up" there's potentially good reason for him to be happy about it.

jasonh23761 · Mar 23, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
"Paul…" Richard shakes his head. "Zeus hasn't killed anyone and he's not threatening to kill anyone. I think we should investigate what's going on, but-."

"Zeus might not be able to make a strong avatar, but he can create a storm ten miles across centred on Themyscira and fire lightning bolts until the bedrock melts without leaving his throne. People with superpowers are a threat, and that's true for gods as well."

"Would he?"

"I don't think so, but I've never spoken to him directly and I'm not prepared to risk their lives on my beliefs. Now. Individual assignments."

Robin, that's the difference between a traditional law enforcement mentality and an intelligence one. Like it or not, you're on the Justice League's equivalent of a covert ops team. The fact they call it a youth team doesn't change the nature of what they have you do on occasion.

Chojin Patriarch · Mar 23, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
26th October 2012
22:29 GMT -5

Richard edges away as I move to stand at the front of the team's semicircle huddle. My environmental shield is still expanded, but it's not quite the roaring house fire that it was a few moments ago.

A fact I'm sure they are thankful for. Given OL's raw power in the Orange Light, it was probably enough to radiate actual heat. On the other hand, he's now going to give them the rundown on a Greek God and make plans to eliminate him (Ideally non-fatally. They are still superheroes.) That's... Quite a move.

"This is Zeus."

I connect my ring to the hologram projector and bring up an image of the avatar Zeus used when he met Helena Sandsmark. Between her photographs of the trip and the ship's security cameras I had more than enough to create a three dimensional model.

The hardest part of working out what Zeus is really like would be getting them to forget all the pop culture depictions. Not Disney's Zeus. Not the children's book version. Not the 'pleasant old bearded man in a toga, with golden lightning bolts'...

"He's King of the Olympians, a pantheon of gods worshipped by the inhabitants of one small and insignificant island in the Aegean Sea, and a handful of weirdoes in other places. When encountered like this, he's fairly weak."

Noriel frowns. "Weak?"

Boy, he is not happy with the Amazons right now, eh? Or the Olympians, at that.

"To be precise, mildly superhuman strength and endurance, and some ability to manipulate electricity. Everyone here with their normal equipment could take him down. That is because gods can't maintain strong avatars in the material world for long without a great deal of effort and assistance, and Zeus doesn't have enough worshippers to pull it off."

I pause.

A good rationale for why some comics depictions of Olympians were incredibly powerful, others little more than strongmen.

"It occurs to me just now that while most of you know about why I-." I make eye contact with Zatanna and not Robert. "Why we went after Nabu, we never really discussed the methodology. How we went about working out how to fight a high-end arcane life form. The first stage isn't much different to a more mundane target; find out everything you can about them. Find people who know things about them, and have reason to do them harm. Find people with relevant skills and work out how to bind them to your cause. When we had our first meeting about dealing with Nabu, I asked if we were willing to make common cause with Klarion."

Information is power, after all. and when you're dealing with that level of power, having equal or better power is vital.

That gets a quiet-

"Dude."

-from Wallace.

Don't worry, they weren't stupid enough to actually try it. Not least the fact that Klarion still had a major rage-boner against OL...

"We decided that it wasn't even worth considering. And we decided it that evening. Who are Zeus's enemies?"

Raquel straightens slightly. "The Titans, right? Cronus, and… Whoever."

Yeah, not much known about any of them, is there? Except what appears in myths about the Olympians. The joy of being the losers in their war.

"I doubt that anyone in Tartarus likes him very much. Or Tartarus itself. Several Titans, gods and demigods ended up down there at the end of the Titanomachy. And I don't know of enough reliably unbiased sources to want to base my decisions on them. Oceanus was wrecking the Atlantic rim because Orm did something to him. Helios has-" I glance at Kon's dull glow. "-been nothing but helpful. Did the Olympians serve anyone else by defeating Cronus, or did they just want to avoid being consumed? Don't know."

And they aren't talking about it, so...

Kaldur nods. "We will need to find out."

Donna nods. "I'll go. Cronus is more likely to speak with me than with anyone else."

If only because she's crafted by his ~~sister-wife~~ Mother Gaea.

"Would Lord Hades let you in?"

"I'll just tell him that I want to speak to Diana."

Of course, he's probably well aware of Zeus' little proposition, and can probably imagine how OL is responding. That little lightshow as OL left the Underworld made that pretty clear. So he'd be likely to be willing to lend aid to some degree...

"Which is a problem. Diana's not stupid enough to believe that my reaction to this situation will be anything less than total apoplexy. If any of us start walking up to the prisoners in Tartarus for a chat, she's not going to be happy."

"Um!" New Kara raises her right hand. "We should just ask Zeus to stop being a poopy head!"

...And if it were the Disney version of Zeus, that might have worked.

"We did that to Nabu just before the fight started. And though I agree that Zeus should be given a chance to stand down before direct violent action is taken, asking him before any sort we've finished planning our attack just abandons any sort of element of surprise."

Garth nods. "Would it shame him into allowing Wonder Woman to leave Tartarus if we conclusively demonstrated that the Titans don't have any sort of escape plan?"

That depends on whether his temper's cooled, and his ego stopped aching after Diana's refusal...

"They've been down there for about seven thousand years. I'd be amazed if they think about anything other than escaping. I did learn from Hades that Zeus is the one stopping them from being considered for parole, so there's that."

"Are we..?" Artemis looks around. "Are we talking about killing a god?"

And over something comparatively petty, when you look at it. Though Zeus started the whole thing...

"Killing a god is perfectly possible. Killing an avatar isn't hard, and the core consciousness is just a mass of magical energy. I'd rather avoid it though: tearing something like that apart would radiate huge amounts of raw magic out into the Earth's thaumosphere. The issue is that if you don't have a way to kill someone you want to apprehend, then you probably don't have any way to threaten."

"I'm gunna need bigger arrows."

Not quite an Earth-shattering kaboom, but Human society would probably not enjoy the destruction.

"You'd need arcane batteries like the ones we used to drain Nabu, but that probably wouldn't be an efficient approach. With Nabu, we only had to drain what was in his helmet at any one time to erase his mind. With Zeus, you'd have to drain the entire being." I shake my head. "It wouldn't be my choice, though it wouldn't hurt to look into it."

M'gann looks unhappy about the direction of things. "Are we really going to have to fight him?"

Hey, if he relents without a fight, that's great. Unfortunately, given his character...

"Defeating him, whether than means killing him or just wounding him until he submits, removes his authority. As King, his right to issue orders to his followers is absolute and backed by force."

"Okay, but what if he wasn't king?"

Olympus isn't a democracy, sadly. If you could force him to abdicate, Apollo would be the most likely to succeed him. A much more reasonable fellow, I suppose...

"It's not an elected position. A god or demigod from the Hellenic mythos would have to beat him in a fight, and convince the other gods to accept them. Of the ones I know, Lord Hades is happy where he is and Hephaestus is physically crippled from last time Zeus took issue with him. And Plutus wouldn't want to unmask his avatar."

Ghia'ta perks up. "What about Hera?"

Even without the symbolic weight of their marriage holding her back, she's not really a goddess of battle...

"If she hasn't gelded him in his sleep already, I doubt that she's up for a fight now."

"Could she not prevail upon him to change his mind? Perhaps find him someone else to grant his attention?"

That's not a large pool in Earth's mythologies. There are very few unattached goddesses in any of the Pantheons about the world, and they do talk to each other...

"You can certainly ask her. As for other goddesses, I doubt it. Zeus has a bad track record for infidelity and while the Hellenic pantheon has seen a minor resurgence lately he isn't one of the movers. The status isn't there and he isn't that appealing on a personal level."

Something occurs to Kon. "What about Athena? She's Mom's patron goddess."

Good plan. I doubt she's happy about her father's plan. She'd certainly have no reason to warn him.

"We should certainly talk to her. And to your grandmother; since her dodge failed I'd like the whole story. And I need to get hold of Eris. Tempest, Aquagirl, Zatanna: any ideas what would actually happen if Zeus died?"

Three shaking heads, and Canis is smiling in expectation. Probably a bad sign.

...Yeah. On the other hand, Eris must practically be vibrating with glee at all the hilarity that's about to ensue. It's practically guaranteed that she'd support them.

"Worth finding out in advance to see what we could do to mitigate it. Just in case."

"Paul…" Richard shakes his head. "Zeus hasn't killed anyone and he's not threatening to kill anyone. I think we should investigate what's going on, but-."

Ah, the voice of logic. Sadly, I doubt OL is in any mood to listen to it...

"Zeus might not be able to make a strong avatar, but he can create a storm ten miles across centred on Themyscira and fire lightning bolts until the bedrock melts without leaving his throne. People with superpowers are a threat, and that's true for gods as well."

"Would he?"

"I don't think so, but I've never spoken to him directly and I'm not prepared to risk their lives on my beliefs. Now. Individual assignments."

...Uh, OL? Kaldur is still in charge of the Team, remember? Even if you play this as purely theoretical, he's still the one to decide stuff...

Well, OL is leaning hard on the 'plan to take Zeus down' angle, isn't he? Let's hope that it doesn't come down to putting what he learns to use. With any luck, those he talks to can convince him to ease up a little. It'll be interesting to hear what Eris has to say on the matter, if nothing else. Which I bet we'll see soon.

Vaermina · Mar 23, 2022

Chojin Patriarch said:
...Yeah. On the other hand, Eris must practically be vibrating with glee at all the hilarity that's about to ensue. It's practically guaranteed that she'd support them.

Eris likes Chaos.

However she also likes living, and given short of Zoat Retcon Zeus dying should mean death and destruction for the rest of the pantheon, there's every chance she would instead put Paragon in a Time Out.

AmericanNumbers · Mar 23, 2022

Given, relative power bases? Zeus is significantly further down from the Host of the Silver City. I am extremely curious how this plays out though.

cerberus beasty · Mar 23, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
Zeus hasn't killed anyone

Oh he's killed plenty, it's just that nobodies ever done anything about it. This is a reckoning that has been long overdue.

Caerwen · Mar 23, 2022

Chojin Patriarch said:
...Yeah. On the other hand, Eris must practically be vibrating with glee at all the hilarity that's about to ensue. It's practically guaranteed that she'd support them.

Maybe Eris even helped Zeus get the idea to proposition Diana. Indirectly and directly causing the hilarity is her thing after all.

Darko · Mar 23, 2022

Chojin Patriarch said:
Boy, he is not happy with the Amazons right now, eh? Or the Olympians, at that.

Nope.

Chojin Patriarch said:
Olympus isn't a democracy, sadly. If you could force him to abdicate, Apollo would be the most likely to succeed him. A much more reasonable fellow, I suppose...

Unfortunately Apollo isn't all that great either.

Chojin Patriarch said:
Even without the symbolic weight of their marriage holding her back, she's not really a goddess of battle...

They're divorced now, so any marriage weight may be gone.

And Hera has killed giants in myths.

Rafin · Mar 23, 2022

Vaermina said:
Eris likes Chaos.

However she also likes living, and given short of Zoat Retcon Zeus dying should mean death and destruction for the rest of the pantheon, there's every chance she would instead put Paragon in a Time Out.

Which Eris are we dealing with here? If she's Eris, daughter of Nyx then she's older than Zeus and only very distantly related to him (through Chaos I think?) so I don't know how affected she would be.

Still, killing seems very extreme. Zeus never killed his own godly enemies for good reason. Also, Hades will not at all be amused even if Paul manages to best and bind Zeus, at least not if he isn't involved. At least some of his authority comes from being the brother of the King of Olympus who, among other things, freed him from his father's belly.

DAT_NOOB · Mar 23, 2022

Chojin Patriarch said:
Olympus isn't a democracy, sadly. If you could force him to abdicate, Apollo would be the most likely to succeed him. A much more reasonable fellow, I suppose...

Uhh... didn't Paul put Apollo in a pigsty? I don't think he'd be much better. I'd laugh if Hera became the single Ruler of olympus.

Bud-E · Mar 23, 2022

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Hestia the oldest Olympian meaning she is the rightful ruler?

Prince Charon · Mar 23, 2022

Bud-E said:
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Hestia the oldest Olympian meaning she is the rightful ruler?

'Rightful' is a somewhat difficult term. With the Olympians (due to the culture that spawned them), 'Might Makes Right' is probably a literal concept.

EDIT: I don't like how clumsily I phrased that, but I hope that it's clear enough anyway.

Hell's Razer · Mar 23, 2022

Chojin Patriarch said:
, Apollo would be the most likely to succeed him. A much more reasonable fellow, I suppose

... Are we talking about Apollo God of the sun, archery and plagues? Which plagues? All of them.
According to myth they were his go to tool to express his displeasure to large amounts of people, like cities. Traditionally delivered with the help of his arrows from very far (one of his more famous epithets is "Μακροσαγιτάρης" which translates to "far shooting").
Also said arrows were used to express his displeasure at singular people without the nurgle gift.
Are you sure you want him able to throw a hissyfit (he is a Greek god, him throwing one is not a question of if, it is a question of when) with the backing of being the king of Olympus?

Bud-E said:
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Hestia the oldest Olympian meaning she is the rightful ruler?

Depends entirely on which mythic tradition you are drawing them from. Which city-state, which era, which cult etc.

preier · Mar 23, 2022

Vaermina said:
Zeus dying should mean death and destruction for the rest of the pantheon.

Source? Or did you mean in a general 'pantheon loses boss, enemies gather'?

Enochi · Mar 23, 2022

Well though its unlikely to happen I really hope this blows up in Paul's face.

Radix · Mar 23, 2022

And here is the flaw in Paul's methodology again. He defaults straight to hostile. His intelligence gathering centers around getting info from people who have grudges with his target. No attempt made to reasom or even get the target's side of it. Or even empathize with why they would do this.

He instead bases it on his assumptions. All to avoid giving up "surprise". And I domt really see how the idea that some people dont like an idea gives up the element of surprise to do something about it. Of course Diana's students would come to him and plead for releasing her. Doesnt mean they will revolt from his perspective.

Forcing it to subdue them at all costs also raises the risk od resistence as opposed to finding what they want and making a trade. It is so hypocritical given what OL tries to let go out of convenience. Such as his attempts to get Luthor on side. There is a lot of good that could be gained from getting Zeus on-side. And really what has Zeus done that much? Adultery?

WereDragon · Mar 23, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
26th October 2012
22:29 GMT -5

At this point I think I would prefer they to get halfway through their assassination prep when all Tartarus breaks loose.
The story is always big on Paul soap-boxing but this is taking it to an un-entertaining extreme.

cerberus beasty said:
Oh he's killed plenty, it's just that nobodies ever done anything about it. This is a reckoning that has been long overdue.

Paul has a significantly larger body count than Zeus.

PDV · Mar 23, 2022

Chojin Patriarch said:
all the pop culture depictions. Not Disney's Zeus. Not the children's book version. Not the 'pleasant old bearded man in a toga, with golden lightning bolts'...

The version in Fantasia is pretty good.

WereDragon said:
Paul has a significantly larger body count than Zeus.

Not for lack of trying on Zeus's part. If Troy and Achaea had been planets rather than small regions, he'd be ahead.

I_S · Mar 23, 2022

I will point out, Zeus is a known serial abuser and rapist whom is on the prowl again.

Wonder woman doesn't need Paul to do anything but what about all the non dieity tier Amazons or any regular mortal women the god king of Olympus wants?

Bolo · Mar 23, 2022

The Fact that this is eerily similar to the Nabu situation and Almost no one has an issue with it brings up more problems then Paul seems to notice.(yet)
If "everyone" was in the know and was Ok with it, From the Justice League to his own team, means Paul has failed to explain/teach the proper lessons.
This is Not OK and having to explain that to the "Heroes" is Sad.

mastermenthe · Mar 23, 2022

AmericanNumbers said:
Given, relative power bases? Zeus is significantly further down from the Host of the Silver City. I am extremely curious how this plays out though.

The Host of the Silver City as a whole, yes, I agree.

But OL doesn't have any tricks for dodging God Domain bullshit, just as how OL couldn't even begin to defend against Hera's brief use of Godspeech.

Remember that the Host Of Heaven is a terrible yardstick for winnability: the very first "fight" was OL being disintegrated by degrees via Divine Denunciation, which only does not count as Godspeech bullshit because The Host Of The Silver City is so fundamental to reality-as-it-is that their uses of Godspeech is mundanely visible and audible, even to someone as godblind as OL.

The second "fight" OL had with The Host was him being out of range, until he very suddenly wasn't and died in one round, losing The Sword Of The Fallen in the process.

The third "fight" saw OL trapped in a box from.the word "go", and that was while he even had The Ophidian reconnected and boosting him.

Fighting Zeus is likely going to be even more bullshit, similar to fighting Darkseid but less clever and more bloodthirsty.

Odysseus2099 · Mar 23, 2022

Chojin Patriarch said:
If only because she's crafted by his sister-wife Gaea.

Gaea is Kronos's mother, Rhea was his sister-wife. (And I spell it Kronos because Chronos is someone else in Greek myth. Kronos is the Titan of the Harvest, son of Ouranous and father of Zeus, Chronos is the Primordial of Time, and firstborn of Chaos. Or possibly the father of Chaos, depending on the specific cult. Greeks weren't big on consistent canon.)

Chojin Patriarch said:
Olympus isn't a democracy, sadly. If you could force him to abdicate, Apollo would be the most likely to succeed him. A much more reasonable fellow, I suppose...

Given Athena was heavily implied to be Metis's daughter (for reference Zeus ate Metis because she was prophesied to birth the one to overthrow him) and there were a bunch of cults that worshiped her as the King of Gods, even if Apollo inherits, he's not likely to be the one on the top in the ensuing power struggle.

Vaermina · Mar 23, 2022

Bolo said:
The Fact that this is eerily similar to the Nabu situation and Almost no one has an issue with it brings up more problems then Paul seems to notice.(yet)
If "everyone" was in the know and was Ok with it, From the Justice League to his own team, means Paul has failed to explain/teach the proper lessons.
This is Not OK and having to explain that to the "Heroes" is Sad.

That's because Paragon picked his audience to be one who would be most receptive to helping him and then purposefully didn't tell them everything to shape their reactions to one favorable to the outcome he wants.

And then, when a couple showed they still didn't want to do it, pushed them into doing it anyways under the guise of a "theoretical exercise".

Mr Zoat · Mar 23, 2022

Radix said:
And here is the flaw in Paul's methodology again. He defaults straight to hostile. His intelligence gathering centers around getting info from people who have grudges with his target. No attempt made to reasom or even get the target's side of it. Or even empathize with why they would do this.

He instead bases it on his assumptions. All to avoid giving up "surprise". And I domt really see how the idea that some people dont like an idea gives up the element of surprise to do something about it. Of course Diana's students would come to him and plead for releasing her. Doesnt mean they will revolt from his perspective.

Forcing it to subdue them at all costs also raises the risk od resistence as opposed to finding what they want and making a trade. It is so hypocritical given what OL tries to let go out of convenience. Such as his attempts to get Luthor on side. There is a lot of good that could be gained from getting Zeus on-side. And really what has Zeus done that much? Adultery?

The only thing I disagre with is the Lex Luthor comparison. Lex Luthor is very easy to kill.

Bolo said:
The Fact that this is eerily similar to the Nabu situation and Almost no one has an issue with it brings up more problems then Paul seems to notice.(yet)
If "everyone" was in the know and was Ok with it, From the Justice League to his own team, means Paul has failed to explain/teach the proper lessons.
This is Not OK and having to explain that to the "Heroes" is Sad.

That's why all the text was red until he accepted that they were actually taking action.

With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

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