With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[Duke Long]

Guest right. Plus, they're women who haven't seen a child for a long time.

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This just made me think about something. Since babies are too young to have a coherent idea of religion (or any idea at all), and they're incapable of doing the righteous acts that the Silver City requires, do they all go to Hell?

 

[Noctus]

That's where the word "tangseiding" came from in the post you quoted. The version of Paul that did that was named Tangseid because orange and his Darkseid-ish approach to peace.

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Ohh cheers. Never really participated in discussions so this is my first time seeing it.

 

[Mr Zoat]

This just made me think about something. Since babies are too young to have a coherent idea of religion (or any idea at all), and they're incapable of doing the righteous acts that the Silver City requires, do they all go to Hell?

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I'm... Going to no, given that the Silver City is canonically pretty accepting of the insanity defence.

 

[0zymandias]

My explanation for how the Spear of Destiny works is ( if it was the Spear used to check if Jesus was dead) then it would have pierced Jesus while he was holding the sins of every human past, present and future in his body which probably gave the Spear a connection to the collective human unconscious. Its ability to nudge people to think like its wielder is also probably from touching a Physical Avatar as he paid the blood price for humanity's sins.

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Nice theory but no, the angels actually stated that Jesus was pierced by a Roman pilum whereas the Spear of Destiny was a different kind of spear, I don't know what kind to be specific but the Spear of Destiny has different origins, my guess is a superweapon from an alternate/parallel dimension or the symbol of power from a faded/dead god/titan that got left behind

 

[crazygrox]

So, two things to consider:
1) Spear of Destiny might be Destruction's totemic item (which in comic is a sword, yes, but that might be perception thing), which he left behind when leaving his position.
2) A thing Paul might not have considered - Hephaeustus is a Forge god. Spear of Destiny, by dint of being a spear falls into his natural domain. In addition to the domain of technology (which also covers the ring). I think that might amplify the ritual beyond what everyone expects.

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Also rings are individually forged as works of craftsmanship, in a way the comics abstract as being a lot like forging stuff out of metal.

And while we're not sure where the spear comes from, New God characters have claimed that it feels new god-ish, they do a lot of substitution of terms to fit things within their own cultural framework, but in this case I am under the impression it's more credible than usual. So the Spear probably dates back to Aurakles and the New God stuff going on back then. And would have been made by a New God, in which case it was again, probably made as an expression of the skill of an individual craftsman.

And yes, they both kind of fit cleanly into having been manufactured by craftsmen in a forge, and being a result that is a form of advanced technology.

 

[NightmareWarden]

Do you have a link to the shadowrun/dunkelzahn Story posts? I can't seem to find any

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No such thing. Mr Zoat has not crossed over with Shadowrun or Earthdawn. I was just putting it forward as an alternative destination to warhammer fantasy.

 

[Mr Zoat]

No such thing. Mr Zoat has not crossed over with Shadowrun or Earthdawn. I was just putting it forward as an alternative destination to warhammer fantasy.

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I'm afraid that I'm not familiar with either of those settings.

 

[Ct613hulu]

I'm... Going to no, given that the Silver City is canonically pretty accepting of the insanity defence.

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Why would the Silver City have authority over people who could not have possibly made any decisions regarding their religious affiliation? I can see people who don't consider themselves religious still following under the remit of a religion if they have subconsciously accepted its tenets or previously made irrevocable commitments. This couldn't possible be the case though for babies given their lack of understanding and inability to make meaningful choices. It makes more sense whatever happens to unaffiliated souls to happen to baby souls in the absence of intervention from mystical forces capable of interfering with the destination of souls. I would assume that this generally involve dissipation back into unstructured magical energy (or becoming one with the universe to be poetic) but it could also involve collection by anyone looking for unclaimed souls to use as magical resources or slave.


I also can't help but consider whether Babies would even have souls in this setting. My understanding is that this setting defines Soul as essentially being magic that is gradually shaped into a constant and sustainable form by the activity of a sentient mind. It doesn't follow the contemporary practice of viewing the Soul as something that comes from the first moment of human existence and eternal in the absence of direct destruction by deific power. The result is that it should be possible for children to simply not live long enough to generate a stable soul that can continue existing past death. There are some incredibly dark implications with this idea, but it is not as if it would be relevant to the average person given the near-universal ignorance of the true metaphysics of the afterlife.

 

[Darko]

Why would the Silver City have authority over people who could not have possibly made any decisions regarding their religious affiliation

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Because they can.

Because they'rethe most powerful group of divinities around and none of the other groups want to mess with them.

Because they essentially work for the one responsible for creating the universe and probably have much more authority over everything compared to other divinities.

I also can't help but consider whether Babies would even have souls in this setting. My understanding is that this setting defines Soul as essentially being magic that is gradually shaped into a constant and sustainable form by the activity of a sentient mind. It doesn't follow the contemporary practice of viewing the Soul as something that comes from the first moment of human existence and eternal in the absence of direct destruction by deific power. The result is that it should be possible for children to simply not live long enough to generate a stable soul that can continue existing past death. There are some incredibly dark implications with this idea, but it is not as if it would be relevant to the average person given the near-universal ignorance of the true metaphysics of the afterlife

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No, babies are born with souls since they absorb the local magic around them.

What you mentioned above applies more to people like Paul.

 

[Ct613hulu]

Because they can.

Because they'rethe most powerful group of divinities around and none of the other groups want to mess with them.

Because they essentially work for the one responsible for creating the universe and probably have much more authority over everything compared to other divinities.



No, babies are born with souls since they absorb the local magic around them.

What you mentioned above applies more to people like Paul.

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My understanding is that every religious can provide evidence for being "real" because of how they drag things out of the Dream to support their internal logic. The Silver City works for the "one responsible for creating the universe" in the sense that they have a connection to the Source. There is no indication that this is in any way unique or that they have any special insight or powers not available to other pantheons.

I don't think that it was ever indicated that Silver City could effortlessly overpower the other pantheons. It is possible that they would simply not face anyone willing to contest their claim on the unaffiliated souls, but that then brings up the question of whether they would even be interested in pressing such a claim. Why would the dogmatic and judgmental angels be willing to exceed their responsibilities by giving non-believers the reward offered to their most favored followers? What could be the benefit gained from taking responsibility for hundreds of millions or billions of baby souls that isn't based on some manner of horrible abuse?

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My key point in regards to babies or young children possibly not having souls that exist past their death is based on the question of exactly how they absorb the local magic. I believe that absorption process would be based on the activity of sentient minds interacting the Dream. Making Souls the product of sentient existence can explain the proven ability of non-biological minds to support a soul and lets the story avoid the troublesome implications of having humans be the only ones with souls. It also connects back to the idea of the Dream serving as the ultimate source of magic.

The consequence of this absorption process is that babies who died prior to having the opportunity to experience sentient activity would not generate a soul. They could hot have begun the absorbtion process as they never had the opportunity to interact with the Dream. Their existence would simply have been that of matter governed by the normal chemical and biological processes of a human body. This wouldn't impact their behavior as the possession or absence of a Soul seems to be something that is really only relevant in regards to interaction with magic and existence after physical death.

We also know that the process of generating a soul is not instant because of how Paul didn't immediately gain a soul once he entered the Earth thaumosphere. The exact amount of time needed to generate a soul is undetermined, but we could be easily dealing with anything from weeks to years. It would all depend on what is needed to begin the absorption process and what factors influence the rate of absorption. Regardless of the exact time constrains, it can be assumed tremendous number of children would die before they absorbed enough magic to generate a fully developed soul.

 

[PrinceJonathan]

What if the Spear of Destiny actually belongs to Destiny, and it's really just a giant ink pen used to write in his book?

 

[Ngamer11]

What if the Spear of Destiny actually belongs to Destiny, and it's really just a giant ink pen used to write in his book?

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Destiny simply has the book and reads it, but doesn't actually write anything himself? As in the book just has info in it on its own.

 

[PrinceJonathan]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Destiny simply has the book and reads it, but doesn't actually write anything himself? As in the book just has info in it on its own.

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Well maybe the Spear is something he once used in the distant past, but then discarded it when it became redundant?

Like can someone just ask him "Hey, is this yours?"

"Oh you found my back scratcher."

 

[Darko]

My understanding is that every religious can provide evidence for being "real" because of how they drag things out of the Dream to support their internal logic. The Silver City works for the "one responsible for creating the universe" in the sense that they have a connection to the Source. There is no indication that this is in any way unique or that they have any special insight or powers not available to other pantheons

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Except aside from the New Gods and their Old God predecessors, other pantheons seem to lack a similar connection to the Source, so it kinda is unique to the Angels and the Silver City.

Plus it has been confirmed in this story that if an individual is not significantly connected to a non-Abrahamic religion, then they'll either be sent to Heaven or Hell instead of the afterlives of pagan deities.

This is probably die to the reasons I gave above, like them being the most powerful group, or at least the one most connected to the universe since they channel the power of the being that may be behind the creation of the universe.

I don't think that it was ever indicated that Silver City could effortlessly overpower the other pantheons. It is possible that they would simply not face anyone willing to contest their claim on the unaffiliated souls, but that then brings up the question of whether they would even be interested in pressing such a claim. Why would the dogmatic and judgmental angels be willing to exceed their responsibilities by giving non-believers the reward offered to their most favored followers? What could be the benefit gained from taking responsibility for hundreds of millions or billions of baby souls that isn't based on some manner of horrible abuse

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They may be interested in those souls since that's what their boss told them to do, or because they view it as good to introduce them to the being that they view as the one true deity of everything.

My key point in regards to babies or young children possibly not having souls that exist past their death is based on the question of exactly how they absorb the local magic. I believe that absorption process would be based on the activity of sentient minds interacting the Dream. Making Souls the product of sentient existence can explain the proven ability of non-biological minds to support a soul and lets the story avoid the troublesome implications of having humans be the only ones with souls. It also connects back to the idea of the Dream serving as the ultimate source of magic.

The consequence of this absorption process is that babies who died prior to having the opportunity to experience sentient activity would not generate a soul. They could hot have begun the absorbtion process as they never had the opportunity to interact with the Dream. Their existence would simply have been that of matter governed by the normal chemical and biological processes of a human body. This wouldn't impact their behavior as the possession or absence of a Soul seems to be something that is really only relevant in regards to interaction with magic and existence after physical death.

We also know that the process of generating a soul is not instant because of how Paul didn't immediately gain a soul once he entered the Earth thaumosphere. The exact amount of time needed to generate a soul is undetermined, but we could be easily dealing with anything from weeks to years. It would all depend on what is needed to begin the absorption process and what factors influence the rate of absorption. Regardless of the exact time constrains, it can be assumed tremendous number of children would die before they absorbed enough magic to generate a fully developed soul

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Unless they absorb magic while still in the womb and during that later parts of the pregnancy they form a soul.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Why would the Silver City have authority over people who could not have possibly made any decisions regarding their religious affiliation? I can see people who don't consider themselves religious still following under the remit of a religion if they have subconsciously accepted its tenets or previously made irrevocable commitments. This couldn't possible be the case though for babies given their lack of understanding and inability to make meaningful choices. It makes more sense whatever happens to unaffiliated souls to happen to baby souls in the absence of intervention from mystical forces capable of interfering with the destination of souls. I would assume that this generally involve dissipation back into unstructured magical energy (or becoming one with the universe to be poetic) but it could also involve collection by anyone looking for unclaimed souls to use as magical resources or slave.

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Nah, you're thinking too atomistically. It's about having your soul bound to a mythos. One of the ways that can happen is personal devotion, buit equally it can happen by default if everyone around you is nominally affiliated with a particular religion. Or

I also can't help but consider whether Babies would even have souls in this setting. My understanding is that this setting defines Soul as essentially being magic that is gradually shaped into a constant and sustainable form by the activity of a sentient mind. It doesn't follow the contemporary practice of viewing the Soul as something that comes from the first moment of human existence and eternal in the absence of direct destruction by deific power. The result is that it should be possible for children to simply not live long enough to generate a stable soul that can continue existing past death. There are some incredibly dark implications with this idea, but it is not as if it would be relevant to the average person given the near-universal ignorance of the true metaphysics of the afterlife.

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you can inherit if from your mother, due to most of the magic of your soul coming to you in vitro along with everything else.

 

[Ct613hulu]

Nah, you're thinking too atomistically. It's about having your soul bound to a mythos. One of the ways that can happen is personal devotion, buit equally it can happen by default if everyone around you is nominally affiliated with a particular religion.

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That has some troublesome implications for people who do not follow the dominant religion. Having your afterlife be determined by a religion you are not a part of seems like it would almost certainly go in some terrible directions. It also provides a powerful reason for atheists and agnostics to become more aggressive in their opposition to religious people as they cannot rely on a personal belief to bind them to a preferred afterlife.

 

[Mr Zoat]

That has some troublesome implications for people who do not follow the dominant religion. Having your afterlife be determined by a religion you are not a part of seems like it would almost certainly go in some terrible directions.

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Not really. You can always pick something else, or reject your home culture viciously enough that it no longer applies.

It also provides a powerful reason for atheists and agnostics to become more aggressive in their opposition to formal religion as they cannot rely on a personal belief to bind them to a preferred afterlife.

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I can't imagine that there are many atheists who would complain about receiving something other than oblivion, but I'm not feeling sympathetic to those there are.

 

[Ct613hulu]

I was thinking of all those religions which condemn nonbelievers to some variation of eternal torment. My perspective is that such suffering would be worse than oblivion, but I can see how other people might think differently.

 

[Mr Zoat]

I was thinking of all those religions which condemn nonbelievers to some variation of eternal torment. My perspective is that such suffering would be worse than oblivion, but I can see how other people might think differently.

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To quote Terry Pratchett: This explains why it is so important to shoot missionaries on sight.

 

[Someguy Somewhere]

The thing that most people think of when they say that they totally have the spear of destiny.

Spoiler: Fancy Pointy Stick

A Roman Pillum, which was more of a throwing javelin intended to stick into and weigh down the targets shield so they could not remove it easily.

Spoiler: Pointy Stick of War

 

[Rafin]

I think that might amplify the ritual beyond what everyone expects.

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These kind of connections are basic 101 in sympathetic domain magic. I'm sure Hecate of all people will be able to take that into account as she weaves the ritual.

 

[Rafin]

Thank you, corrected. Though the 'vater' thing is just the German word for 'father'.

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That's not a sensible correction. Germans naturally pronounce W as V in their own language. They have no problem whatsoever pronouncing an F. So "I walk into the forest" might become "I valk into ze forrest", but no German would ever mispronounce it as "vorest".

What might make it confusing in the case of "Vater" and other actually German words starting with V is that in German spelling a "W" makes a V-sound, but a "V" can be either a V-sound or and F-sound with no underlying logic other than root words and etymology. But letters having multiple possible pronunciations with little rhyme or reason shouldn't be anything new for an English speaker.

Source: Am German. Know decent English.

 

[Stsword]

This just made me think about something. Since babies are too young to have a coherent idea of religion (or any idea at all), and they're incapable of doing the righteous acts that the Silver City requires, do they all go to Hell?

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Maybe not all of them, but it was a plot point in Vertigo that Lucifer opened the gates of hell and kicked all the souls out, we saw a lady reunited with her miscarried child.

I don't blame Zoat for ignore that can of worms, though.

 

[Mr Zoat]

That's not a sensible correction. Germans naturally pronounce W as V in their own language. They have no problem whatsoever pronouncing an F. So "I walk into the forest" might become "I valk into ze forrest", but no German would ever mispronounce it as "vorest".

What might make it confusing in the case of "Vater" and other actually German words starting with V is that in German spelling a "W" makes a V-sound, but a "V" can be either a V-sound or and F-sound with no underlying logic other than root words and etymology. But letters having multiple possible pronunciations with little rhyme or reason shouldn't be anything new for an English speaker.

Source: Am German. Know decent English.

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I don't understand what you're correcting.

 

[PDV]

I'd prefer Shadowrun. Making Dunklezahn smile is worth a lot of that world's hellish conditions. Making him smile after causing others to fail in their fiendish endeavors? Even better. Now if only the writers would stop pretzeling the timeline…

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Eris would certainly approve of him. Life and death both devoted to grabbing the table and spinning it in the air (somehow without entirely flipping it).

 

[Coda]

A fate worse than death was implied for Zeus. This story is getting a bit formulaic. Here's a prediction. Zeus walks in on the Titan ritual to share some stern words on everyone planning his death. The ritual gets ruined somehow, and goes out of control. Zeus and Hephaestus get sucked into the baby titan, and turn into some horrible electric metal machine god.

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Come now, Mr Zoat is most certainly not Wildbow.

I don't understand what you're correcting.

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It's an un-correction, the person who had previously made comments on Blitzen's German accent was wrong.

 

[webxro]

The fun part about this is that Hecate finally realized that with Paul around she's a scientist with virtually infinite resources, she just needs to ask for whatever she needs and she will receive it.

Imagine being a goddess of magic and magical invocation suddenly a guy shows up and asks you to do this thing and then asspulls stuff you imagine you would need to make his project happen right away. And he delivers on the spot in a better quality that you would imagine.

 

[Michael Vonica]

Come now, Mr Zoat is most certainly not Wildbow.

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I know what you're referring to, but not enough about it to judge how Wildbow would treat the topic of becoming a horribly malformed version of yourself. If I had to guess, it would probably involve a lot of suffering and self hatred, eventually leading to death or becoming trapped in an unfulfilling horrible life where even if the person can still function, they aren't doing it very well, and are probably unsatisfied or missing essential parts of themself.

The thing I like about Zoat's work was the perspective of accepting and growing around those sorts of horrific adjustments. Like how Michael Siskin became a fear monster, but grew to the point of being able to go out in public without the risk of going on any sort of killing rampage. Did he reach a point of accepting many immoral things, probably up to and including torturing children? Probably. But even if he wasn't human anymore, he was still a functional being that could find its own place in the universe, and probably be happy with it, one day. Until he died.

 

[PDV]

Not gonna lie, if it were me, I'd rather team up with the demons to destroy the fascists than the other way around. Nazi Earth is indescribably more horrific than demon Earth.

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...Did you even bother to read the parts about Demon Lord Superman's Earth? Because that world was dying, no one was really safe from being maimed or kill and most people would have been much better off in a Mad Max style wasteland.

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It's not worse but it's more horrific, I basically agree. Kind of like Voldemort vs. Dolores Umbridge, you know? People hate Umbridge much more because she's more real - people have seen Umbridges in their life and she's them but so much worse, and the supervillain isn't.

Judging by what that angel said, the Spear may not be connected with Christ, so I guess it's possible that it came from the Irish gods.

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I'm afraid that I'm not familiar with [Shadowrun or Earthdawn].

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Shadowrun is fantastic, cyberpunk plus urban fantasy. Shadowrun Returns: Dragonfall and Hong Kong are excellent video games which are also very good intros to the setting. Dunkelzahn's Will is also awesome - implicit worldbuilding in the form of a dragon parceling out his hoard to various people and causes. (It's aesthetically similar to Dwarf Fortress patch notes.)

 

[Darko]

People hate Umbridge much more because she's more real - people have seen Umbridges in their life and she's them but so much worse, and the supervillain .

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It's kinda like how Eric Cartman became more terrifying after he got into a relationship with Heidi and emotionally abused her.

Sure, everything he did before that, like murder, kidnapping, torture, xenophobia, etc., were all horrible, but because they were so wacky and unrealistic, we did not give it much thought and while we acknowledged it as evil, the fact that it was unrealistic did not inspire a feeling of revulsion we would typically have for such things, since a child basically dressing as Hitler and planning to genocide the Jewish populace is not likely to happen.

But the emotional abuse and manipulation he inflicted on Heidi wasn't portrayed in a funny way and is very likely to happen, so because it feels more real, we are more likely to be sickened by it.