With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

DrThoth · Apr 29, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
"Sure did, but Uncle Sam has not been seen in the Heartlands or in the material world for decades."

Is the Heartlands a place from the comics? I presume it's like the American metaphysical equivalent of Olympus or something.

Mr Zoat said:
Hephaestaean nods. "Do you have any relationships with members of my pantheon that I don't know about?"

"I think Orange Lantern once suggested that I marry Athena, but I think-" Hephaestaean's tentacles stop for a moment, then go back to reading paperwork. "-that he was telling a joke. I have never even met her. Though I hear that she's a good god. I look forward to working with her."

Have people already discussed in the thread about the interpretatio romanus that went in Roman imperial history on where Tyr was equated with Mars (and thus possibly Ares too)? It's poetic that he's the candidate in that sense- Tuesday (Tyr's Day) is directly analogous to Mars's Day in Latin and Romance languages.

If Odin took over from Tyr after backstabbing him, is the creation account we have of Norse mythology about Odin killing Ymir and fashioning the first humans with the help of his later-forgotten brothers accurate? Tyr in mythology is also the son of a Jotun I believe (even if that's more of a cultural difference than a 'species/race' difference between them and the Aesir), so it might have been worth asking what connections he has to them. Jotun are often quite primordial compared to the Aesir so I'm unsure if there are any connections between them and the Titans. I assume getting benevolent Jotun on board would be too much of a provocation to Odin though, so best to avoid that until New Olympus is better established.

Cuchulin · Apr 29, 2022

crazygrox said:
I was wondering how Hephaestian and Euanthe would interact.
What with him being technology, and many of her worshippers being ecological primitivists/luddites.
There's probably a way to compromise there.
Between the Sheeda's destruction, and the mix of the tribes and Euanthe being radically pro-rainforest, but Danner probably trying to moderate things where it would cause unnecessary suffering, there are probably a bunch of people who refused to move out in the wake of the attacks and rainforest expansion, but who also recognize that they're outmatched in power and dependent on the tribal Danner enhanciles and Euanthe's magic for defense.
If Danner was given the opportunity to recruit for Hephastean's cult, it could provide an outlet for those people to seek power without disrupting the country, probably stabilizing it actually by giving him more powerful groups committed to the idea of a central government and varying in culture compared to those already existing, except for a common agreement on loyalty to his office.
There's also the advantage that Hephastean is committed to working through a whole pantheon. If his own cult doesn't flourish in Brazil that's no reason why his pantheon can't still do so.

They very well might go for some form of Techno Primitivism, that is a "primitive" life style enabled by advanced technology. To put it simply, the tech is there but it's not obvious or intrusive enough for the average person to notice it in every day life, or maybe doesn't even know about it.

DrThoth said:
If Odin took over from Tyr after backstabbing him, is the creation account we have of Norse mythology about Odin killing Ymir and fashioning the first humans with the help of his later-forgotten brothers accurate? Tyr in mythology is also the son of a Jotun I believe (even if that's more of a cultural difference than a 'species/race' difference between them and the Aesir), so it might have been worth asking what connections he has to them. Jotun are often quite primordial compared to the Aesir so I'm unsure if there are any connections between them and the Titans. I assume getting benevolent Jotun on board would be too much of a provocation to Odin though, so best to avoid that until New Olympus is better established.

The Joutun are thought to represent the primal forces of nature, especially winter. So they probably are much like the Greek Titans.

Chojin Patriarch · Apr 29, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
29th October 2012
05:19 GMT +3

"…which is when Odin started laughing." He waves his right forearm dismissively. "I learned a valuable lesson about not taking loyalty for granted that day."

Hephaestaean nods, his fully repaired mechadendrites working the way through Tyr's truly impressive stack of references. Apparently, his most recent occupation was working in a bar in Reykjavík, which… Well, as he said, it's a people-orientated occupation.

And probably not short of conflict, if only him smacking surly drunks and hauling them outside. Which would be extra embarrassing, to get manhandled by a one-handed man. Good to see he's been keeping his eye in... Unlike Odin.

Hephaestaean is occupying the position at the 'head' of the oval, with Metis on his right and the pile of papers and scrolls on his left. I'm not sure how they've been preserved; velum can last 1500 years but some of those are far older.

I'm sitting on the mid-right part of the oval, opposite our Shinto guests. Tyr looks happy enough to deliver his speech from the middle of the floor, and it's been a learning experience. I had no idea that he used to be the head of their pantheon. Or that Odin was supposed to release Fenrir, but decided that getting his boss crippled was a better idea.

The joy of getting most of our modern information from sources garbled by those writing them down trying to couch them in terms friendly to their own religion.

"Do you think it will cause you difficulty in interacting with him in the future?"

"We haven't spoken for twelve hundred years. He is fixated with avoiding his own death at Ragnarok, I decided that a band of backstabbers weren't worth my time. I won't say that I wouldn't kick him in the balls if I had a clear shot, but I won't make revenge the focus of my life."

I have to wonder how the rest of the Norse Gods feel about the scheming. Surely some of them have accepted their Doom, and plan to have one last good fight before they go.

"And what about Fenrir?"

"I don't think he's going to give me my hand back. And I don't think I'd want it; he's probably drooled all over it."

<snerk> A war god with a sense of humour. That promises to make for an amusing time later.

"Is the feud between you ongoing?"

"He was my dog, you know? I think he regretted taking my hand the moment he saw how shocked I was." Tyr looks aside for a moment. "No, there's no grudge there. If I saw him again I'd offer him dinner, and I think he'd go after Odin rather than me."

Yeah, Fenrir did get done dirty, thanks to old one-eye.

"And what about Garmr?"

"He's supposed to kill me at the end of the world. I've never even seen him. If it happens, then it happens. I'm not going to worry about something that may never happen, and that I couldn't stop if it does end up happening."

Garmr, for reference. At least if Tyr's working with the Olympians, he'll have backup for the fight.

"How are your relations with the other Æsir?"

"Freyja sends me a letter every year, and I send one back in return. Other than that, I don't have much to do with them."

To be fair, Freyja (Not Frigga, wife of Odin) is one of the better gods. And a good example of deities playing musical pantheon, being born of the Vanir rather than the Æsir, having relocated as part of a peace treaty or similar.

"Have you spoken to Jon Haraldson?"

"I appear to him in his dreams sometimes and give him uplifting omens. He is Odin's man, and his wife is Odin's servant, and Odin already hates him. I don't want to make his life harder."

Yeah, not hard to make things worse for him.

Hephaestaean nods. "Do you have any relationships with members of my pantheon that I don't know about?"

"I think Orange Lantern once suggested that I marry Athena, but I think-" Hephaestaean's tentacles stop for a moment, then go back to reading paperwork. "-that he was telling a joke. I have never even met her. Though I hear that she's a good god. I look forward to working with her."

At least he won't push where he's not wanted. Unless it turns into love at first sight for both of them. Narrative Causality and all that.

"Very well. Now, what plans do you have for the domain of war?"

"I believe that my focus should be the soldiers and their guidance. There are good reasons to go to war, good reasons to kill intelligent beings. Usually, soldiers do not think about them when they go to fight. I would change that. I would help them understand what the good reasons to fight are. I want to teach them how to come to terms with their destructive urges and harness them. I wish to teach them the value of suffering and hardship and resolution."

Turning the mad bloodlust that Ares promoted into manly determination and hot-blooded courage. Sounds good.

"And why have you not done so before now?"

"I had no support amongst the Æsir. To change a people, you have to change their worldview. The whole pattern of thoughts they use to understand the world. I could not do that on my own. You can find a few hundred examples of my attempts to change men's hearts in my references. But I could not change everyone. Now, in this time, human civilisation is ready to change. And I want to be part of that."

True enough. Battles are tending to be fought by smaller groups on behalf of larger organisations, and as the technology improves, the soldiers need to improve with it.

"With the gods of the Hellens?"

"I do not think that you will limit yourselves to the Hellens."

True, he has his eyes on growth markets...

"No, but I might start there."

Tyr nods. "It might be good to start with a smaller group of people. I have not been a god as part of a pantheon for a long time. Being able to travel where I want is nice, but I have reach the point in my life where I ache for the presence of peers. It will be better than working at Ikea, which is what I was going to before Kratos telephoned me."

I still find it amusing that they know each other. I guess Tyr visited the gym while he was wandering, or some such.

"Do you have plans on how to begin?"

"Yes. I have a few worshippers who could act as priests, and I will need to speak to the Amazons to see if some of them are willing. I know enough about rune magic that I think I can get their attention. The advantage of modern communications technology is that it is possible to share lessons with a great many people and have them shared accurately. I cannot plan for everything, but that is how I will start."

Spreading his word through Youtube! ...Or whatever the DC Universe equivalent is.

"Can you fight?"

"So long as I don't stick my sword hand in my enemy's mouth before the fight starts. It took my a long time to learn to fight left handed, but I prefer it to strapping a blade to my stump."

Don't be surprised if that changes, old fellow. There are perks to joining Hephaestaean's renewed pantheon.

"Have you ever fought an angel?"

"Very briefly, during the invasion. Will we be fighting the Silver City?"

...Try not to sound too eager now, though.

"I do not want to, but they may decide that they do not want other religions to be revived."

"Then we fight. I can defend against their magic, and their fire does little to me."

Quite a step up from Ares, then?

Hephaestaean nods. "I will need to follow up on your references, but I like what I have heard. You will have my decision within nine days. Do you have somewhere to stay, or do you require lodgings?"

"I have a tent on the slopes. Whether I go to Olympus or Sweden, I'd like to spend the rest of my free time in the natural world."

Well, looks like he's hired. I expect the delay is to allow other prospects to emerge.

"Then I thank you for coming here, and give you leave to depart."

Tyr comes to attention facing Hephaestaean, gives him a formal bow, then turns and strides out of the deliberative chamber.

At least he seems to be respectful of his soon-to-be-fellows.

He's not even out of the room before Hephaestaean starts taking pieces of metal out of subspace and begins working on them, plasma cuttings stencilling the solid pieces as the structure begins to come together.

"A new right hand for your new right hand man?"

Not wasting any time, I see. I suspect Phaeste would have made him the hand even if he didn't get the job, though. Like OL, such imperfections seem to offend him.

"Yes. He sounds perfect, and the references are good. This hand will symbolise our bond, as well as making it easier for him to hold things."

I nod. "Now that that's settled, I should visit Brazil. Do you want to speak to Euanthe here?"

Since she technically is still under the auspices of the Olympians, being a Dryad.

"Yes. She has a base of worshippers and a clear role. If she will not come, get permission for us to build temples in her new land."

"Will do. Any other orders?"

...Requests, OL. You don't formally work for him, after all. Except as a worshipper. Though to be fair, when a member of your pantheon says jump, it's probably a good idea to nod and maybe ask 'how high?'

The fingers of the hand flex as the plasma cuttings begin inscribing the runes that will grant it phyresis.

"No. Go with my blessing."

I assume that means it'll feel and move like living flesh, rather than simple metal.

I nod, standing up-. Ah. "Lady Liberty, did you ever consider recruiting Uncle Sam?"

"Sure did, but Uncle Sam has not been seen in the Heartlands or in the material world for decades."

...Wait, what?

I frown. "Yes he has. He's been hanging around Washington for months."

She looks at me quizzically.

"Orange Lantern, I've known Uncle Sam for longer than anyone. I don't know who that person in Washington is, but they aren't Uncle Sam."

...Well, that's not good. Might want to look into that after finishing with Euanthe.

Oh, this is going to turn out to be the plotline of U.S., isn't it? Where the real Sam is wandering the country as a 'homeless crazy man' while a cockier, more Jingoistic incarnation has been pushing the country into conflict after conflict? In which case, hell yeah. But first, that little chat with the radiant plant-girl of Brazil, and perhaps Hugo Danner will show up...

..but I have reach the point in my life...

...but I have reached the point in my life...

crazygrox · Apr 29, 2022

Cuchulin said:
They very well might go for some form of Techno Primitivism, that is a "primitive" enabled by advanced technology. To put it simply, the tech is there but it's not obvious or intrusive enough for the average person to notice it in every day life, or maybe doesn't even know about it.

I mean, in-story Orange Lantern did visit an alien civilization which produced their technology by growing it as plants.

I've been wondering when Euanthe was going to get that powerup for a while now.

Senevri · Apr 29, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
How are your relations with the other Æsir?"

"Freyja

Isn't she a Vanir tho? Tyr would care about the difference.

Vaermina · Apr 29, 2022

Darko said:
I first discoveredthat little bit in a video analysis of an American Gods episode where it was pointed out that in some of the older myths, Tyr was head honcho.

Tyr was never head honcho.

Dyēus was, then he became Tiwaz who also was, but then Tiwaz trisected into Zeus, Jupiter, and Tyr.

Unlike Zeus and Jupiter however, Tyr was never actually referenced as being the head/chief god of the Norse pantheon.

Stsword · Apr 29, 2022

hance1986 said:
Is this a similar situation to how Lucky Hans was turned into Captain Nazi?

Probably.

Uncle Sam had a limited series where he was confronted by his dark half, the "I love the smell of Napalm in the morning. It smells like victory!" imperialist version of the American Dream.

So my first instinct is to agree with Chojin that this is probably Zoat adapting that storyline.

m_d · Apr 29, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
"With the gods of the Hellens?"

"I do not think that you will limit yourselves to the Hellens."

According to the OED, those should be "Hellenes", unless I misunderstand what you're referring to.

Mastigos2 · Apr 29, 2022

Dur'id the Druid said:
Uh oh. Boss Smiley?

There is, of course, also the option that Lady Liberty is Boss Smiley. Infiltration and subversion at the divine level is a thing he's done before after all.

Vaermina · Apr 29, 2022

Mastigos2 said:
There is, of course, also the option that Lady Liberty is Boss Smiley. Infiltration and subversion at the divine level is a thing he's done before after all.

Susanoo would be more likely.

NightmareWarden · Apr 29, 2022

Way back when O.L.'s personhood bill was ratified, "Uncle Sam" was present, but he did not speak. The Truggs scene mentioned above seems to be another appearance. So what is going on here?

A) a Dial was used at some point which turned someone into an Uncle Sam lookalike. Probably not a literal Bizarro-Sam, but anything is possible.
B) An alternate Uncle Sam from an alternate Earth is active, but something at his core is distinct from the Sam known to Lady Liberty.
C) Smiley? Who might not exist? But who probably does exist, given the personal-identification-rune used during the Heaven arc… eh.
D) A New God is trying something undercover.
E) Some other alien…?

Mr Zoat · Apr 29, 2022

Chojin Patriarch said:
...but I have reached the point in my life...

m_d said:
According to the OED, those should be "Hellenes", unless I misunderstand what you're referring to.

Thank you, corrected.

Senevri said:
Isn't she a Vanir tho? Tyr would care about the difference.

He knew what Hephaestaean meant.

Chaoswind · Apr 29, 2022

I see people forgot about Star Crossed the best Renegade episode.

Remember the guy that Grayven threw into Jupiter? The head of the US department that went traitor and was allied with the local caveman and apocalypse? None of you remember what body that swell guy had snatched?

w34v3r · Apr 29, 2022

Vaermina said:
And he did it all because for some dumb reason he wants to make the Olympians the Author Insert power houses of the setting.

You mean the people he's been mocking relentlessly since the first episode?

jasonh23761 · Apr 29, 2022

I like this guy. Originally I got him confused with Baldr and it took me awhile to realize that.

Mr Zoat said:
"He's supposed to kill me at the end of the world. I've never even seen him. If it happens, then it happens. I'm not going to worry about something that may never happen, and that I couldn't stop if it does end up happening."

Just like that, he sidesteps so many of the old follies.

Mr Zoat said:
"I believe that my focus should be the soldiers and their guidance. There are good reasons to go to war, good reasons to kill intelligent beings. Usually, soldiers do not think about them when they go to fight. I would change that. I would help them understand what the good reasons to fight are. I want to teach them how to come to terms with their destructive urges and harness them. I wish to teach them the value of suffering and hardship and resolution."

Also a good point, though I would point out that usually it is the older soldiers who think about such things because they've gone through it before. Senior NCOs tend to take that long view even if their juniors don't.

Mr Zoat said:
"Orange Lantern, I've known Uncle Sam for longer than anyone. I don't know who that person in Washington is, but they aren't Uncle Sam."

The plot thickens!

All in all, I really like this guy.

Awkward · Apr 29, 2022

Vaermina said:
Boy that was fast...

But even I'm impressed with the sheer amount of retconning Mr Zoat had to do with Tyr here...

Like, that is 100% Mr Zoat made up shit that has no foundation in either the real life Mythos or the DC mythos.

And he did it all because for some dumb reason he wants to make the Olympians the Author Insert power houses of the setting.

No. Vaermina I get that you seem to personally dislike zoat. You're perfectly fine to do so, but just outright lying to win imaginary points on the internet is kinda sad.

I did some research and managed to find out that Tyr is only sparingly present in prose and poetic edda. Most notably Tyr is known for wrestling the monstrous hound Fenrir and losing his arm in the process. And for being a member of the Aesir tribe who represented war and bloodshed while somewhat paradoxically, he was also known as a bringer of justice and order.

All I've found makes references to how Tyr is a smart (originally germanic) god with a good sense of justice and comraderie. So you claiming that Tyr is even worse than Ares, especially DC Ares is just an outright lie.

Sockmonkey · Apr 29, 2022

crazygrox said:
I was wondering how Hephaestian and Euanthe would interact.
What with him being technology, and many of her worshippers being ecological primitivists/luddites.

He did mention that things like stone spears and other primitive crafts were as much a part of his domain as metalworking.

Darko · Apr 29, 2022

Senevri said:
Isn't she a Vanir tho? Tyr would care about the difference.

Heph was probably lumping the Aesir and Vanir together.

Chaoswind said:
I see people forgot about Star Crossed the best Renegade episode.

Remember the guy that Grayven threw into Jupiter? The head of the US department that went traitor and was allied with the local caveman and apocalypse? None of you remember what body that swell guy had snatched?

Okay, what happened in that episode?

Awkward said:
No. Vaermina I get that you seem to personally dislike zoat. You're perfectly fine to do so, but just outright lying to win imaginary points on the internet is kinda sad.

I did some research and managed to find out that Tyr is only sparingly present in prose and poetic edda. Most notably Tyr is known for wrestling the monstrous hound Fenrir and losing his arm in the process. And for being a member of the Aesir tribe who represented war and bloodshed while somewhat paradoxically, he was also known as a bringer of justice and order.

All I've found makes references to how Tyr is a smart (originally germanic) god with a good sense of justice and comraderie. So you claiming that Tyr is even worse than Ares, especially DC Ares is just an outright lie.

Wow, Vaermina hates this story and continues to try to make it seem bad by lying about it.

This is not a shocker.

Darko · Apr 29, 2022

Chojin Patriarch said:
The joy of getting most of our modern information from sources garbled by those writing them down trying to couch them in terms friendly to their own religion.

Yeah, a lot of the Norse myths were written down after Christianity got a foothold on most of the Norse world.

A lot of things are probably false.

And some of those falsehoods may not be intentional and could have come from things like bad translations or not understanding the past culture enough to write about it accurately.

Chojin Patriarch said:
I have to wonder how the rest of the Norse Gods feel about the scheming. Surely some of them have accepted their Doom, and plan to have one last good fight before they go.

If they believe in the whole inescapable prophecy thing then they may ot have much choice.

Chojin Patriarch said:
Yeah, not hard to make things worse for him.

Ehh, the guy is a high-ranking warrior and is invincible, so there re way to make his life harder by either demoting him or making him vulnerable.

Chojin Patriarch said:
I still find it amusing that they know each other. I guess Tyr visited the gym while he was wandering, or some such.

The Norse appreciated strength.

Chojin Patriarch said:
Spreading his word through Youtube! ...Or whatever the DC Universe equivalent is.

I think it was called "VidULike".

I'm also getting flashbacks to that divine phone app thing from the City of Demons movie.

Chojin Patriarch said:
Not wasting any time, I see. I suspect Phaeste would have made him the hand even if he didn't get the job, though. Like OL, such imperfections seem to offend him.

And it would be nice advertisement to potentially attract other dissatisfied gods.

Chojin Patriarch said:
...Requests, OL. You don't formally work for him, after all. Except as a worshipper. Though to be fair, when a member of your pantheon says jump, it's probably a good idea to nod and maybe ask 'how high?'

Paul now has far greater stakes in Heph since Heph can help him in so many ways now.

Chojin Patriarch said:
Oh, this is going to turn out to be the plotline of U.S., isn't it? Where the real Sam is wandering the country as a 'homeless crazy man' while a cockier, more Jingoistic incarnation has been pushing the country into conflict after conflict? In which case, hell yeah. But first, that little chat with the radiant plant-girl of Brazil, and perhaps Hugo Danner will show up...

Unless Paul decides that the Uncle Sam thing needs more of his attention.

0zymandias · Apr 29, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
"…which is when Odin started laughing." He waves his right forearm dismissively. "I learned a valuable lesson about not taking loyalty for granted that day."

Tyr seems like a good guy but I can't help but think that he's potentially a Nordic spy or he's making shit up and was sent by Odin to have an in with the Greeks or he's actually Loki testing the waters before he makes a transition fully himself.

Awkward said:
No. Vaermina I get that you seem to personally dislike zoat. You're perfectly fine to do so, but just outright lying to win imaginary points on the internet is kinda sad

Don't wrestle with a pig, you'll get filthy and they'll enjoy it. Same concept with a troll.

lancelot · Apr 29, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
"…which is when Odin started laughing." He waves his right forearm dismissively. "I learned a valuable lesson about not taking loyalty for granted that day."

So considering the whole Old Gods are the canon version of Asgard, with a 'Lokee', and Wotan is this OC Tyr all that will be showing up or will others be appears as more gods get involved?

MadMarx420 · Apr 29, 2022

Vaermina said:
Boy that was fast...

But even I'm impressed with the sheer amount of retconning Mr Zoat had to do with Tyr here...

Like, that is 100% Mr Zoat made up shit that has no foundation in either the real life Mythos or the DC mythos.

And he did it all because for some dumb reason he wants to make the Olympians the Author Insert power houses of the setting.

No offence but do you do anything other than moan and complain? I don't usually read the comments here, just read the chapter and move on but for the last week I have not seen you do anything but immediately complain and moan about this story. There's hate watching something and then there's this, god damn if you don't like the story just stop or are you some kind of masochist?

Radix · Apr 29, 2022

I see no reason why Euanth's followers cant coexist with Hephestus. Not all of them need to live with advanced technology. Especially given that the preservation of the environment and the rainforest in particular are important.

The advanced technology allows us to live more dense, farm more efficiently, etc. So that allows more land to be set aside for preservation.

Darko · Apr 29, 2022

MadMarx420 said:
No offence but do you do anything other than moan and complain? I don't usually read the comments here, just read the chapter and move on but for the last week I have not seen you do anything but immediately complain and moan about this story. There's hate watching something and then there's this, god damn if you don't like the story just stop or are you some kind of masochist?

This is Vaermina we're talking about here.

They can't do anything but moan and complain.

Don't try to reason with them, don't ask them to have logical opinions, don't beg them to change, don't insult them into changing.

Just don't interact with them in any way; you'll only be wasting your time.

Just put them on ignore and don't look back.

Enochi · Apr 29, 2022

MadMarx420 said:
No offence but do you do anything other than moan and complain? I don't usually read the comments here, just read the chapter and move on but for the last week I have not seen you do anything but immediately complain and moan about this story. There's hate watching something and then there's this, god damn if you don't like the story just stop or are you some kind of masochist?

Shrug. Oftentimes I agree with him. The protagonist is very much wish fulfillment/Mary Sue-esque character. And while Zoat knowledge of DC lore is breathtaking.... his characterization is.... inconsistent. Some of this is probably due to the 'mix-and-match' nature of the story with YJ canon being priority and DC lore secondary which leads to the Justice League especially feeling both under-powered for the the setting and not really in character compared to their comic counterparts in comic storylines.

Many times the only thing keeping me engaged in the story is sheer momentum from having read it for years and years at this point. As well as Zoat's incredible dedication to daily updates. Its very impressive. However frankly sometimes the story is quite bad and I far more enjoy 'Renegade' over 'Paragon'.

Do I consider this particular Arc bad? Not really. It pretty much went as expected for the most part and had some pleasant minor twists that kept me engaged enough.

Rafin · Apr 29, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
I had no idea that he used to be the head of their pantheon. Or that Odin was supposed to release Fenrir, but decided that getting his boss crippled was a better idea.

I gotta ask: Are you just making this up because it's neat and fun or are you using either an obscure theory or a preexisting fictional story/book for inspiration? Because this is the first time ever that I've heard of Tyr as being above the All-father.

Also, I think this video is interesting if we start discussing Norse mythology.

Impartial Panic · Apr 29, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
"Orange Lantern, I've known Uncle Sam for longer than anyone. I don't know who that person in Washington is, but they aren't Uncle Sam."

oh great Father time is up to shit again.

Now Paragon Paul gets to deal with S.H.A.D.E. just like Graven Paul did.

Mr Zoat · Apr 29, 2022

Rafin said:
I gotta ask: Are you just making this up because it's neat and fun or are you using either an obscure theory or a preexisting fictional story/book for inspiration? Because this is the first time ever that I've heard of Tyr as being above the All-father.

My knowledge is no deeper that a wikiskim.

Darko · Apr 29, 2022

Enochi said:
Shrug. Oftentimes I agree with him. The protagonist is very much wish fulfillment/Mary Sue-esque character. And while Zoat knowledge of DC lore is breathtaking.... his characterization is.... inconsistent. Some of this is probably due to the 'mix-and-match' nature of the story with YJ canon being priority and DC lore secondary which leads to the Justice League especially feeling both under-powered for the the setting and not really in character compared to their comic counterparts in comic storylines.

Many times the only thing keeping me engaged in the story is sheer momentum from having read it for years and years at this point. As well as Zoat's incredible dedication to daily updates. Its very impressive. However frankly sometimes the story is quite bad and I far more enjoy 'Renegade' over 'Paragon'.

Do I consider this particular Arc bad? Not really. It pretty much went as expected for the most part and had some pleasant minor twists that kept me engaged enough.

I don't fully agree with your points but I can sympathize and feel some of the same issues such as the odd characterization.

And I also partly read this story just because I've been reading it for years on a daily basis.

DrThoth · Apr 29, 2022

Rafin said:
I gotta ask: Are you just making this up because it's neat and fun or are you using either an obscure theory or a preexisting fictional story/book for inspiration? Because this is the first time ever that I've heard of Tyr as being above the All-father.

If you're familiar with the basics of Proto Indo-European mythology, the root of Greek, Roman, Celtic, Germanic/Norse, Vedic and several other myths and languages, the ruler of the gods was the Sky Father, called something like Dyaus Pitar (reconstructed by linguists). The 'Dyaus' element gives us 'Zeus' and the generic 'deus' to describe divinities.

Similarly, it gives us Tiwaz, the original/older name for Tyr, and even 'Tyr' can become a generic term for a god, a bit like Deus in Latin, e.g. one of Odin's titles is Hangatyr (the Hanged God). Dyaus Pitar also turns into Jupiter. So you can see/reconstruct the idea that Tiwaz/Tyr was the original ruler of the gods until the cult of Odin (who I'm not sure has been linked to an Indo-European deity, though he's later interpreted as the Germanic equivalent of Mercury/Hermes by the Romans) presumably took precedence. Zoat's interpretation here is a bit interesting as a reflection of this. Tiwaz and Tyr both show up and are actually distinct characters in the Marvel comics, I believe, with Tiwaz being Odin's grandfather or something, which is probably a nod to this situation too. The more familiar Tyr doesn't seem to retain much of his Sky Father traits, but like Sandman and American Gods say, gods have to learn to change with the times.

There's a separate Indo-European thunder god (linked to thunder, wielding a thunderbolt-weapon, and oak trees) who's mixed with Dyaus Pitar to give us Zeus (and likely Jupiter), but who also gives us Thor, Indra and the Slavic Perun more or less by himself (the name-connection may be harder to track in several cases).

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