With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

AmericanNumbers · May 7, 2022

Also
"Tell Hades that if he's even pretending to be a good person he should just let her go. I can't imagine what it would be luck to be married for thousands of years to someone who terrified me like he does."

like not luck

Stsword · May 7, 2022

Now this is more like it.

Empowering Persephone is ten thousand times better than reenacting Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind.

Darko · May 7, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
actions of the other Olympians Persephone

"Olympians, Persephone"

Mr Zoat said:
Hades doesn't want to completely lose Persephone."

"He's already completely lost her."

And he kinda never had her in the first place.

Mr Zoat said:
"I just wish I understood why she was so scared of him. He's never seemed that intimidating to me

Hades wasn't always so mellow.

The guy can be pretty intimidating and he did have sex with Persephone under incredibly questionable consent, so if course she'd be scared of him.

Mr Zoat said:
My phone rings and I pull it out of my jacket. It's Zagreus.

I guess it's time, then

Time to see how this shit show will end.

Darko · May 7, 2022

AmericanNumbers said:
So it seems strange to me that Paul would be willing to not help Persephone get what she wants. He can clearly read her.

Helping her get what she wants can be detrimental to him since he may potentially no longer have access to a pleasant afterlife.

Paul can be incredibly selfish point of view, Hades may neglect his duties and his realm can fall apart, so all the souls in it could be put in jeopardy.

RichardWhereat · May 7, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
Why do sandwich shops mix mayonnaise with tuna? Shouldn't a cheap café like this go easy on the mayonnaise and not turn the contents of the sandwich into tuna-flavoured mayonnaise gloop?

Because without mayonaise, cooked tuna is shit.

Darko said:
The guy can be pretty intimidating and he did have sex with Persephone under incredibly questionable consent

He had the consent of her father to marry her, and then was her husband. At that point, she was his property. They weren't married in 2020's America, they were married in 3000 BC Greece. Social rules were entirely different, and understood different.

Darko · May 7, 2022

RichardWhereat said:
He had the consent of her father to marry her, and then was her husband. At that point, she was his property. They weren't married in 2020's America, they were married in 3000 BC Greece. Social rules were entirely different, and understood different.

I doubt Persephone still felt all that happy about it, even if Hades did everything correctly according to the rules of society.

Just because something is accepted by society, that doesn't mean everyone will be okay with it.

Vaermina · May 7, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
"Euanthe did that, and she was far weaker than Persephone a couple of years ago."

"Could you help Persephone out the same way?"

"I suppose I-."

My phone rings and I pull it out of my jacket. It's Zagreus.

I guess it's time, then.

And then she kills Hades...

Mr Zoat said:
The SI is not insecure.

LePaul very much is.

Chojin Patriarch · May 7, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
30th October 2012
13:33 GMT -5

"The mad bomber from my Earth, or the grinning fool from this one?"

"The local chap."

Well, that question's answered. So, they're looking for his connection to the Alliance of the Just. I wonder, how deep will they try to dig? And what secrets will they find that they weren't looking for?

"I have been trying to avoid him."

Zatanna frowns. "Why?"

Well, isn't it obvious? Nazi versus Super-Patriot. 'Icily polite' would be the best possible interaction...

"You know vhat the version from my Earth has been doing?"

"Leading a rebellion against Nazi control?"

Well, that's what it would look like to an outside observer, I guess. I'm sure the locals would have different opinions.

Johanna looks like she finds that sort of comment tiresome. "No. The National Socialist Party rules Greater Germany. America is an independent country. Ve don't control them. They make perfectly good fascists on their own."

"So he's fighting American fascists."

And sadly, they were a thing back before the war. Same as American communism.

"You could say that. But America has been fascist for sixty years. Just about everyone is fascist, or nationalist, or at least neutral. Mostly, he just murders hundreds of civilians wherever he can, American, German, or anyone else."

"What? Why?"

Madness? Pettiness? I'm more impressed that those who follow him still do so. Since I doubt he works alone.

"Because their grandparents failed him? Because the country thinks that he vas on the wrong side of history? Or perhaps he just doesn't like being reminded that he lost? Or perhaps he is in denial about all of the genocides that America carried out before National Socialists got involved? I don't know."

"Much as I enjoy mocking America, that's not the version we'd like to know about."

And Earth-10 Uncle Sam is not really a significant issue, until the reformation begins.

"I know he's on the contact list, und I saw a photograph of him mit Vincent Edge vhen I visited his office. Do you vant me to ask about him?"

"'Ask', probably not. Just try and find out what he does. I assume that you've told people where you're from?"

Of course, how many people believe her about it, that's up in the air.

"Jah. And many negro men have hit on me after being told." She gives her head a small shake. "It is very strange."

"They're probably just trying to annoy you. Or get you to say something that would make the Alliance kick you out."

Or just, y'know, she's a gorgeous woman. Some guys just aren't that complicated.

"Or they think they can convert you."

"I am villing to not call for them to be deported to Africa, but let's not go crazy."

I doubt you're in that much danger from any of them, certainly.

"Ah, but think how much it would piss off your creators."

"Psh, please. They vere purged years ago. And then the people who purged them vere purged. Unt I think that the people who purged them vere purged also." She takes on a slightly more serious expression. "If I did that, I vould not be going back. Unt if I do not go back, then Overgirl's oh-so-secret plan to change our society fails. So even if I meet a very nice negro, it will not happen."

Hey, you never know what'll happen.

"But you accept the idea that there could be nice negroes."

She shrugs. "Sure. If you can accept three nice National Socialists, I can accept nice negroes."

Stranger things have happened.

Zatanna kicks me under the table.

"It's more that I hope that I can encourage you to stop being a National Socialist."

Let's not go for the impossible here, OL.

"Unt have a nice negro boyfriend?"

She sounds… Not angry, exactly; I'd see that. Irritated? Disgusted? "That's up to you. Or, will be. Hopefully."

I suspect you're wearing out your welcome with this line of discussion, OL.

It's not that uncommon for you, is it?

"Even if the Reich reforms to a degree, sixty years of racial education will not just vanish."

"Yes, I can hear that in your voice. I'm not sure what you think I'm suggesting that's so-" She looks away, giving her head a small shake. "-offensive, but I'm pretty sure-."

Just... Stop, OL. Give it up.

"No, no, I vas.. overreacting. I'll… Ah. I'll go back.. to vork."

I reach out with my right hand. "Johanna, it's not-."

Boundaries, OL.

She pushes back her chair, not meeting my eyes. "I vill go. Goodbye."

She doesn't walk out at super speed, but she does walk quickly and with purpose.

Well done, you ticked off the superspeed Nazi. I suspect the next mugger she meets won't be enjoying the arrest.

"Um."

Zatanna puts her sandwich down. "What did you expect? Even if she's not super-committed to being a Nazi, she still grew up in a Nazi country."

People can't just up and change instantly, OL. As much as you wish they could be sensible, sometimes...

I nod. "And having run out of other types of subhuman, they probably use 'negro' as their main racist insult. And she just got hit with culture shock combined with cognitive dissonance." I sigh. "This is one of the times when I shouldn't go after her, right?"

"I think that's probably best. You can phone her tonight or something."

Thank goodness Zee's here to restrain his bluntness.

I nod, taking a bite of-. Why do they do this? Why do sandwich shops mix mayonnaise with tuna? Shouldn't a cheap café like this go easy on the mayonnaise and not turn the contents of the sandwich into tuna-flavoured mayonnaise gloop? And I can't even get rid of it without using my rings.

"You don't have to eat it."

...Probably not a good idea anyway. Who knows what the kitchen is like back there?

"That would be rude."

But darn. I swallow.

Well, if you do feel unpleasant, you can fix it once you get your Rings back on.

"Do you have any advice on the situation with Persephone?"

"Tell Hades that if he's even pretending to be a good person he should just let her go. I can't imagine what it would be luck to be married for thousands of years to someone who terrified me like he does."

Oh, I don't see him being all too rational about this, as sensible as Hades usually is. Best hope is that he understands and accepts it.

"Yeah… I'm leaving that for.. plan C."

She frowns at me. "That doesn't sound like you."

Well, he hasn't had long to put a plan together. It's only been a couple of days tops since Hephaestaean took over.

"Hades is actually doing a good job at his main job, and going by the actions of the other Olympians Persephone isn't missing out on much by spending time in Erebos. There's no overt offence. Sure, other factors aside I'm inclined to agree with you. Hades hasn't done much wrong but it's clearly never going to be the relationship that he wants it to be. But I'm not all that good at persuading people to do things they don't want to get things they don't want, and Hades doesn't want to completely lose Persephone."

He's not done a good job of it so far...

"He's already completely lost her."

"I just wish I understood why she was so scared of him. He's never seemed that intimidating to me."

You don't think like a normal person much any more, OL. Much less someone who's decided they're the victim and basically lived that role for thousands of years. Even if she's justified in thinking it.

"You're not most people."

I smile warmly. "Thank you. Neither are you."

...That wasn't a compliment, OL.

She smiles, rolling her eyes. "That's not what I meant. What would you do if you did find him scary?"

"Depends. Being slightly scared of an authority figure isn't necessarily a bad thing. If it was a problem for me… Get stronger until I didn't? Find a new god?"

But alas, we are each shaped by different things. What you'd do is not what she would do. Nor did, in fact.

"Could Persephone do that?"

"Euanthe did that, and she was far weaker than Persephone a couple of years ago."

Different circumstances, different people.

"Could you help Persephone out the same way?"

"I suppose I-."

Hmm... Enable Persephone to rise into a true queen, rather than a mere wife? The question is how quickly you could do that.

My phone rings and I pull it out of my jacket. It's Zagreus.

I guess it's time, then.

Time to find out what Persephone has to say, then? And get the children's perspectives?

So, things begin to move again. What will Persephone's decision be? Will the siblings have a fresh idea to put forwards? Or will the Underworld face its own upheaveal? We'll be finding out soon, I think. As for the Uncle Sam thing, until they can get a closer look at him, it'll be uncertain as to what might be amiss...

RichardWhereat · May 7, 2022

Darko said:
I doubt Persephone still felt all that happy about it, even if Hades did everything correctly according to the rules of society.

Just because something is accepted by society, that doesn't mean everyone will be okay with it.

She clearly didn't feel happy with it, given what's going on in the story. However we can't say he had 'questionable' consent, given that he had perfect consent given the time and circumstances. I'm all for her leaving, but what we've seen is that the entire thing is a tragedy of errors.

Ganurath · May 7, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
Johanna looks like she finds that sort of comment tiresome. "No. The National Socialist Party rules Greater Germany. America is an independent country. Ve don't control them. They make perfectly good fascists on their own."

...That film is from 2018, and very political.

Darko · May 7, 2022

Chojin Patriarch said:
And sadly, they were a thing back before the war. Same as American communism.

And it was back in America even shortly after the war.

The first time I actually discovered that Nazis used to exist in America was in American Gods.

Chojin Patriarch said:
Madness? Pettiness? I'm more impressed that those who follow him still do so. Since I doubt he works alone.

Remember that the society he fight is a Nazi society.

Nazis are known for killing people they find to be undesirable.

People like gays, trans, those that have hidden their ethnic background, anyone who disagrees with them etc.

Sam would have ample recruits from these groups.

Chojin Patriarch said:
I suspect you're wearing out your welcome with this line of discussion, OL. It's not that uncommon for you, is it?

Paul is really terrible at reading people.

Chojin Patriarch said:
Just... Stop, OL. Give it up.

He rarely does that.

Chojin Patriarch said:
Boundaries, OL.

He's not so good with those.

Chojin Patriarch said:
Hmm... Enable Persephone to rise into a true queen, rather than a mere wife? The question is how quickly you could do that.

I doubt Persephone wants to be a queen.

Ct613hulu · May 7, 2022

RichardWhereat said:
He had the consent of her father to marry her, and then was her husband. At that point, she was his property. They weren't married in 2020's America, they were married in 3000 BC Greece. Social rules were entirely different, and understood different.

This really brings up the question of what is the foundation of morality. Are the standards of moral behavior absolute or are they purely subjective construct? Either conception of morality has some serious problems when taken to extremes. I personally think that we should pursue a moderate approach where many actions should always be defined as immoral and the prevalent conditions can only provide context or mitigation.

If we assume that Morality is simply the beliefs and ideals of the dominant culture than you are correct that Hades did nothing wrong. He could in fact be characterized as an exceptionally generous husband given how he never exercised his "rights" by forcing Persephone to have sex with him or delivered beatings at any sign of resistance. I view this as a classic example of the type of problems that come from treating morality as a purely subjective construct. It becomes possible to characterize even the most horrendous types of human behavior as acceptable or even praiseworthy when you only judge according to the current rules of the dominant culture.

RichardWhereat said:
She clearly didn't feel happy with it, given what's going on in the story. However we can't say he had 'questionable' consent, given that he had perfect consent given the time and circumstances. I'm all for her leaving, but what we've seen is that the entire thing is a tragedy of errors.

This has been covered before, but to put it simply:

Hades has been stopping Persephone from escaping for thousands of years. Even if (and this is very big if) he somehow didn't know that Persephone was only consenting out of fear in the early stages of their relationship he undoubtedly caught on at some point and still relied on her fear of him to maintain their marriage. This means that what could originally be described as a tragic misunderstanding has since transitioned into a classic abusive relationship where one party wants to leave but is unable to escape due to the threats of the other.

Pinklestia · May 7, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
The SI is not insecure.

That's means he never doubts himself and isn't that dangerous?

Temp0101 · May 7, 2022

Man Paul is taking this marriage/divorce thing way too pragmatically to the point of being insensitive. Kinda feels like he's putting his foot in his mouth a lot in these last arcs.

Prince Charon · May 7, 2022

Temp0101 said:
Man Paul is taking this marriage/divorce thing way too pragmatically to the point of being insensitive. Kinda feels like he's putting his foot in his mouth a lot in these last arcs.

We're seeing how he acts in a conflict between someone that he is both emotionally engaged with and who is useful to him as-is (but who is basically in the wrong), and someone that he is both not emotionally engaged with and who is not useful to him as-is (but who is basically in the right). Zatanna is also seeing this, possibly for the first time, and maybe it'll change how she feels about him (though I think it helps a lot that they were already drifting apart, and that she knows how badly she screwed up when her crush was at its scariest).

Mr Zoat · May 7, 2022

AmericanNumbers said:
So it seems strange to me that Paul would be willing to not help Persephone get what she wants. He can clearly read her.

That's because Hades is useful and she isn't.

AmericanNumbers said:
Also
"Tell Hades that if he's even pretending to be a good person he should just let her go. I can't imagine what it would be luck to be married for thousands of years to someone who terrified me like he does."

like not luck

Darko said:
"Olympians, Persephone"

Thank you, corrected.

RichardWhereat · May 7, 2022

Ct613hulu said:
This really brings up the question of what is the foundation of morality.

I'm not having a morality debate on QQ. Historically those have never been good for the forum or story they are argued in. WTR has had enough of those.

Splinterface · May 7, 2022

RichardWhereat said:
Because without mayonaise, cooked tuna is shit.

He had the consent of her father to marry her, and then was her husband. At that point, she was his property. They weren't married in 2020's America, they were married in 3000 BC Greece. Social rules were entirely different, and understood different.

Sick. And if Paul was also born then, that would be a different discussion. But he wasn't, and he now seems to be competing for the Gold Medal for Mental Gymnastics in the Olympics to justify not just letting a woman get a divorce from her husband she's terrified of.

Darko · May 7, 2022

Prince Charon said:
Zatanna is also seeing this, possibly for the first time, and maybe it'll change how she feels about him (though I think it helps a lot that they were already drifting apart, and that she knows how badly she screwed up when her crush was at its scariest).

Hmm, yeah this is bound to have her reexamine how she feels about him if she sees his more callous side.

Previously she was likely to view Paul in a more positive light due to him helping her with getting her dad back and due to the Star Sapphire messing with her head, but now Paul isn't helping her and she doesn't have the Star Sapphire, so she is more likely to view Paul in a more balanced way and see that while he does have a lot of good qualities, he's also not exactly boyfriend material.

Well, not unless his significant other is also a bit messed up.

The fact that he may be in favor of someone staying in an arrangement that they don't want any part could also give her Nabu flashbacks and she may be uncomfortable with Paul allowing that to happen.

RichardWhereat · May 7, 2022

Splinterface said:
Sick. And if Paul was also born then, that would be a different discussion. But he wasn't, and he now seems to be competing for the Gold Medal for Mental Gymnastics in the Olympics to justify not just letting a woman get a divorce from her husband she's terrified of.

Almost as if you entirely missed what I was responding to.

Sordid Snake · May 7, 2022

Ganurath said:
...That film is from 2018, and very political.

From the context I think its a film reenactment of the Wannsee Conference but I'm not familiar enough with the Wannsee Conference to tell how well it matches the recovered protocol or Eichmann's witness statements. It matters if its a part of a preexisting film about the Wannsee Conference or if its something D'Souza produced de-novo.

I also disagree with Zoat that it proves US fascism. It proves US racism, not fascism.

kraiv · May 7, 2022

on the topic of persephone

Explains decently well that people were nearly more scared of her then of hades
And the persephone has literaly nothing to do with acctualy causing spring

RichardWhereat · May 7, 2022

kraiv said:
And the persephone has literaly nothing to do with acctualy causing spring

She is what causes axial tilt. But, be careful not to imply it's because of her 'specific gravity'.

Valint · May 7, 2022

RichardWhereat said:
He had the consent of her father to marry her, and then was her husband. At that point, she was his property. They weren't married in 2020's America, they were married in 3000 BC Greece. Social rules were entirely different, and understood different.

Yeah, that's one of the problems when considering myths.

If a king gives away his daughter to a hero, the myth wouldn't treat that as rape because the father consented. If Zeus seduces a princess, the myth would treat that as rape, because the father didn't consent.

In either case, the information necessary to tell us if we would consider it rape is missing from the story, because whether the princess consented is completely irrelevant to the people telling the original story.

Like... a lot of myths become very strange to us when you reword them as "The king has declared that, if any random guy can succeed at a particular task, the reward is that he'll let that guy rape his daughter" even though that's exactly what's going on, according to our mores.

Duke Long · May 7, 2022

Ct613hulu said:
This really brings up the question of what is the foundation of morality.

I agree with RichardWhereat that morality debates are bad, but I did want to say that I think some people are forgetting that in the context of this story, we already know that the SI doesn't believe there is a foundation to morality and seems to have a nihilistic view. After all, he literally says in one episode (well, thinks) that his moral code is no better, objectively, than Weaponer Kalmin's (who wants to destroy everything with the possible exception of the Anti-Monitor, but without the exception of himself).

Wheenesss · May 7, 2022

It occurs to me. Have we solved the mystery of the six Supergirls yet?

Because at this moment we have:
1. Angelika, better known as Overgirl
2. Kara from Earth 16 who has no interest in being a superhero
3. Linda Danvers/Noriel, the current actual Supergirl on the Team
4. Dana Dearden, the Supergirl of the Legion of Superheroes but who is from the present
5. Kara from Demon Earth who was purified but we haven't checked up on her so we have no idea what she's actually like as a person.
6. Pre-Crisis Kara, and we have no idea how she even got here unlike the rest.

Am I missing anyone?

ForeverShogo · May 7, 2022

Don't think that was Wannsee. That was more about them decisively deciding what they were going to do with the Jews.

That was probably meant to be them figuring out how the Nuremberg Laws were going to work. The Nazis were actually inspired by America in quite a few ways for how they handled racial matters. Even their Lebensbraum plans were in many ways inspired by Manifest Destiny and the treatment of Native Americans.

Though that clip is from a movie made by people who worship Trump and tries to claim he's the same as Abraham Lincoln. While blatantly ignoring the paradigm shift that was a result of Nixon's Southern Strategy. Among other stupidities.

Radix · May 7, 2022

I just realized we havent had Paulternate chapters in quite a while. Other than the He-Man one, there hasnt been any since Veganism, 10 episodes ago.

Mr Zoat · May 7, 2022

Radix said:
I just realized we havent had Paulternate chapters in quite a while. Other than the He-Man one, there hasnt been any since Veganism, 10 episodes ago.

The He-Man one was pretty long. I'm also writing one now.

Deadring · May 8, 2022

Darko said:
Ehh, his previous enemies included Satan, so his current enemies may not be all that different.

Granted, they previously may have underestimated him, which he could exploit, but now that he has power, they may be more wary and actually use their brains.

Now, this is a big deal when publicly and obviously moving through the power levels. If you seem pitifully weak, or at least present yourself as a mortal wizard with little formal training, that's really one of your biggest strengths (your other strengths aren't big). People underestimate what you can accomplish. Even if they are aware of the enemies that Mortal John had defeated, they also probably heard that he did it by tricking them somehow. The solutions are pretty easy and obvious to implement, but many of Mortal John's enemies are in some way arrogant or overconfident. You know what trickery means to creatures of such a kind? They hear "He tricked them" and they think "He is weak". The true error there, is not being cautious just because the enemy is weak; that doesn't mean they can't hurt you. Often they underestimate him because he is also a mortal, and everyone knows demons and powerful spirits look down on mortals; giving him the opportunity to harm them when they drop their guard or otherwise give him an opening.

Now? He's the new bad motherfucker on the block. I'm pretty sure most creatures in that sort of wheelhouse have heard his name, and heard the names of those he's beat up. "Yo, he did that while he was a mortal. A mortal." Now, he's some kind of godlike avatar of both order and chaos together! It's irrelevant whether those two elemental ascensions only add their power together, or multiply it exponentially - the relevant point is that this dude was hardcore as a mortal, and now he's even stronger.

So, anyone who was already his enemy is pulling out the big guns, assuming they haven't run for the hills, and he has absolutely attracted... challengers. The point is, even though he is considerably more powerful, that doesn't mean he is safe. OL may not be able to find him at all. Though, that said, we are the readers, not characters, and so we know that he will show up again at some point, in some form.

I look forward to it.

With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Not too sore, are you?

Versed in the lewd.

Connoisseur.

Connoisseur.

Aia airëa Fëanáro.

Connoisseur.

Well worn.

Veteran Lurker

Aia airëa Fëanáro.

Apologizes For Nothing

Connoisseur.

Experienced.

Well worn.

Not too sore, are you?

Just zis guy, you know?

Dedicated ragequitter

Aia airëa Fëanáro.

Getting sticky.

Connoisseur.

Aia airëa Fëanáro.

(Verified Viper)

Getting sticky.

Aia airëa Fëanáro.

I trust you know where the happy button is?

Glomerulus

Experienced.

Not too sore, are you?

I trust you know where the happy button is?

Dedicated ragequitter

Screee!

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