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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Reader mode
The guy just said that it was when she left when he found out where she was from. That is definitely omiting critical information. I'm fairly certain that when people flirt, in most occasions, the question "so, where are you from?" comes up, unless the other individual gives the impression of being from the locale itself during the conversation I suppose.

I can't imagine she having a New York accent, so what did she answer, huh? Because Amazons don't seem to identify with Greece, I don't even know if they know what Europe is, actually. And if they did, I would think they would understand a bit more nuance of the modern world.

I can't read that as ignorance or misinformation, there might no have been malice but the guy was straight up being mislead. Even the Illustres thought that it was originally a brief hook up, one night stand type of deal. What reason was there to not be upfront about her objective? Did she not get the briefing about "Man's World" before crossing the Gate? To me the lady is an asshole. And again, if the genders were switched, effigies would be getting burned.
 
Right before OL and others tried going back to Earth-666 with Kara-666, OL mentions that Medina had been told repeatedly that the way she went about it was not the way that Man's World did things anymore (before she went out). So she either didn't listen or didn't care. Or thought she could get away with it regardless.
 
Lord Ernest said:
What reason was there to not be upfront about her objective?
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You don't usually explain to someone what you 'know' they already know.

Did she not get the briefing about "Man's World" before crossing the Gate?
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How much of airline safety briefings do people actually listen to?

To me the lady is an asshole.
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She might be. She might not. We haven't heard her side of the story yet.

Truth is a three-edged sword: your truth, my truth, and the truth. - Kosh Naranek

And again, if the genders were switched, effigies would be getting burned.
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Probably. But that doesn't make the effigy-burners right.

Chojin Patriarch said:
...Awkward. Only thing more guilt-heavy than a devout Hispanic mom is a Jewish one.
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Erm...a Jewish mom wouldn't have given her son a crucifix. It's kind of illustrating the major difference between Judaism and Christianity.

That said Catholic Mom Guilt would be a thing, although that Venn diagram's circle does overlap heavily with the Hispanic one.
 
Handlewithcare said:
Medina is thousands of years old, it probably never occured to her there could be any issue with her actions.
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I don't believe this for a second. Being thousands of years old means you should know more, not less. She seduced a man on false pretenses, led him on until he literally fell in love, and then fucked off when she got what she wanted.

It's like being a gold digger, except for genes, gold isn't as precious as a child, and you're at least aware and make the choice yourself to give a floozy money.

Whether or not the guy decides this is forgivable, it is NOT excusable.
 
Karmic Acumen said:
Being thousands of years old means you should know more, not less.
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Why? She's lived an isolated life for those thousands of years, she know her area and people very well. They all know how this all works, what she hasn't internalized is that the rest of the world doesn't. The rules of the world have changed and they, been isolated, didn't change with it.

Social conventions can cause problems between one town and the next due to ignorance. Add a few thousand years and a few thousand miles...

It boils down to what she's been told vs what she knows.
 
LZB1285 said:
Why? She's lived an isolated life for those thousands of years, she know her area and people very well. They all know how this all works, what she hasn't internalized is that the rest of the world doesn't. The rules of the world have changed and they, been isolated, didn't change with it.
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Are you seriously trying to argue that "don't lead a guy on" is some sort of unfathomable mystery? News flash, if you'd hate it done to you, you shouldn't do it to someone else.

As far as bad excuses go, "she wasn't spoonfed common sense" is one of the worst.
 
Lord Ernest said:
I can't imagine she having a New York accent, so what did she answer, huh? Because Amazons don't seem to identify with Greece, I don't even know if they know what Europe is, actually. And if they did, I would think they would understand a bit more nuance of the modern world.
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They don't identify as belonging to the modern nation of Greece. They definitely consider themselves Greek. Similarly, they have a concept of the region of Europe, even if their knowledge of its modern history is sketchy.
 
Lord Ernest said:
I mean, it sounds fucked up. If she really just wanted a sperm donor why the charade?

Did they do it that way in ancient times? Infiltrate a town, seduce/romance a guy without saying were they're from, date for enough time to have multiple intercourse encounters ('cause that one shot deal is really rare) and just disappear like the morning fog?

Switch the genders and people would be calling for pitchforks and torches!
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There is also the belief that they kidnap men to rape. I also remember an old legend of an all female civilization that allowed men to vacation in their city, but if they willingly stayed for more than a week they were enslaved.

I like to think we humans are getting better as a civilization, but history is full of ugly tragedy that was just accepted as right and just at the time.
 
Even if she was aware, I see nothing wrong with her actions. She never gave an indication of a long-term relationship, she was just interested in the sex, which he agreed to.

She exists in a marriage already that will raise the kid. Assuming the child is born female at least. And under their legal terms the sperm donor has no right to the kid. Nor do I think he necessarily should.
 
Karmic Acumen said:
A few weeks of living with him is not sign of a long-term relationship to you?

And you think a man has no claim on his offspring? Really?
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Not inherently no. It is just genetics. You only consider it so because of your culturally ingrained values. I see no reason why he should have a claim to the offspring over the mother and their married partner. I mean in plenty of jurisdictions, a child born under a marriage is considered the husband's child regardless of genetics.

And no, living together isn't inherently long-term relationship. Frankly a partner moving in that quickly is a but strange. Assuming they actually were living together and he wasnt using a turn of phrase.
 
Radix said:
It is just genetics.
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The fact that you consider genetics inconsequential says everything really.

And that you insist living together isn't a sign of long-term relationship is absurd.

Lots of cultural beliefs there that you treat as fact without doing the same for the others. You seriously don't recognise the double standard, do you?
 
Radix said:
She exists in a marriage already that will raise the kid. Assuming the child is born female at least. And under their legal terms the sperm donor has no right to the kid. Nor do I think he necessarily should.
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As a point of interest, this isn't true in Britain. A sperm donor retains full rights and responsibilities in relation to any children he sires. That's why no one donates sperm here any more.
 
Mr Zoat said:
As a point of interest, this isn't true in Britain. A sperm donor retains full rights and responsibilities in relation to any children he sires. That's why no one donates sperm here any more.
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It's like that practically everywhere. The only exceptions I can think off the top of my head are a few US states with activist courts. Some countries attach disclaimer forms to donation to circumvent this, but that's it.
 
Karmic Acumen said:
The fact that you consider genetics inconsequential says everything really.

And that you insist living together isn't a sign of long-term relationship is absurd.

Lots of cultural beliefs there that you treat as fact without doing the same for the others. You seriously don't recognise the double standard, do you?
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Why would loving together for a few weeks with the intent of getting pregnant be long-term? If he had assumptions that is on him. And it is why healthy relationships involve communication.

I am not treating any standard as fact. I am pointing out that even in North American culture it isn't universal that genetics get you a right to a child. And the child is being born and raised in a jurisdiction that doesn't rely on genetics for deciding parental rights in regards to the father.
 
Karmic Acumen said:
It's like that practically everywhere. The only exceptions I can think off the top of my head are a few US states with activist courts. Some countries attach disclaimer forms to donation to circumvent this, but that's it.
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If by a few activist courts you mean codified in law passed by a legislature, then sure that is an accurate description.

It is very hard to establish paternity for an existing marriage where the partner signs the birth certificate without the mother acknowledging it.
 
Anyone else hoping to see Mr. Rodriguez give such a romantic and passion-filled speech that it not only moves Medina's heart but also the hearts of her wives and they all drag him off to their bedroom for a hot amazon orgy?

"The Themysciran Court sentences this man to Death.."

"Curse you, Cake Man!"

"..by Snu-Snu!"

(Mr. Rodriguez is surrounded by a veritable buffet of glorious and glistening Amazon cake)

"Bless you, Cake Man!"
 
BR549 said:
That's probably not how she saw it. She probably didn't realise there was anything romantic at all, and thought that he knew all the way through what was going on.

Blue and Orange Morality doesn't require either the blue or the orange to be non-human
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This sounds plausible.

Lord Ernest said:
The guy just said that it was when she left when he found out where she was from. That is definitely omiting critical information. I'm fairly certain that when people flirt, in most occasions, the question "so, where are you from?" comes up, unless the other individual gives the impression of being from the locale itself during the conversation I suppose.

I can't imagine she having a New York accent, so what did she answer, huh? Because Amazons don't seem to identify with Greece, I don't even know if they know what Europe is, actually. And if they did, I would think they would understand a bit more nuance of the modern world.

I can't read that as ignorance or misinformation, there might no have been malice but the guy was straight up being mislead. Even the Illustres thought that it was originally a brief hook up, one night stand type of deal. What reason was there to not be upfront about her objective? Did she not get the briefing about "Man's World" before crossing the Gate? To me the lady is an asshole. And again, if the genders were switched, effigies would be getting burned.
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She might have gotten a briefing but she either didn't listen or the briefing wasn't thorough.

Was she there as a tourist or in an official capacity?

If she was a tourist then it makes sense since most info tourists get may not include the rules of sex and romantic relationships in another country unless the acts are considered illegal.

Karmic Acumen said:
I don't believe this for a second. Being thousands of years old means you should know more, not less. She seduced a man on false pretenses, led him on until he literally fell in love, and then fucked off when she got what she wanted.

It's like being a gold digger, except for genes, gold isn't as precious as a child, and you're at least aware and make the choice yourself to give a floozy money.

Whether or not the guy decides this is forgivable, it is NOT excusable.
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Why would she be wiser just because she's older?

Age isn't a perfect indicator for wisdom.

Plus her age can play against her here since it may be why she didn't understand what she was doing.

Old people can have difficulty adapting to new ways of thinking and doing things, and Medina is thousands of years old, so it may be even more difficult for her.

LZB1285 said:
Why? She's lived an isolated life for those thousands of years, she know her area and people very well. They all know how this all works, what she hasn't internalized is that the rest of the world doesn't. The rules of the world have changed and they, been isolated, didn't change with it.

Social conventions can cause problems between one town and the next due to ignorance. Add a few thousand years and a few thousand miles...

It boils down to what she's been told vs what she knows.
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Pretty much.

Karmic Acumen said:
Are you seriously trying to argue that "don't lead a guy on" is some sort of unfathomable mystery? News flash, if you'd hate it done to you, you shouldn't do it to someone else.

As far as bad excuses go, "she wasn't spoonfed common sense" is one of the worst.
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Common sense isn't all that common.

Plus she may have already been fed sense, but it's Amazon sense.

People don't often adapt to new situations in the best of ways.

And American culture isn't exactly completely unified in the view on how to have a relationship or have children.

Some parts think that both biological parents should raise the kid, while others think it's fine for one to raise them.
 
Rather than focus on who was right in the debate, I think it's interesting that this is the case the SI decided to bring Clark Kent along to witness and I am interested to see what Clark has to say about it. In theory this should be the type of messy moral dilemma that Clark sees all the time. The man works in the news industry; he gets to see plenty of complicated arguments. Often in Superman discussions we are assured that the split is that Superman punches problems that can be solved by violence, and Clark is his means of looking at issues that require a more human perspective. So what is Clark's more human perspective? Will he surprise OL with some solution or suggestion that OL had not considered? After all, while a reporter is not a social worker he probably interacts more with societal issues than OL does. Maybe Clark will have something valuable to contribute.
 
Karmic Acumen said:
Are you seriously trying to argue that "don't lead a guy on" is some sort of unfathomable mystery? News flash, if you'd hate it done to you, you shouldn't do it to someone else.

As far as bad excuses go, "she wasn't spoonfed common sense" is one of the worst.
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You're intentionally ignoring the massive cultural gap between the two

As far as Themysciran culture is concerned leading a man on isn't a thing because everyone involved knows the deal and that's the culture that Medina has been submerged in for three thousand years, think about how set in their ways and uncompromising people who have been raised in a religious household can be after only a few decades, then multiply that by a few hundred

I'm not saying she's blameless because at the absolute minimum she's ignored all the lessons she had before she left and just assumed she knew better but we shouldn't assign malice where it might not be
 
Back when Nemesis was a part of the Wonder Woman support cast there was a storyline that reminds me of this.

Diana wanted to marry Tom, bear his daughter, she even had a name picked out if he so agreed- Polly. That if she should fall in battle Tom would raise their daughter to be a proud Amazon. This was after one of the many times that the Amazons got decimated.

But she wasn't in love with him. Apparently Amazon courtship is on the practical side- If you want someone, whether as a temporary recreation or even a lifetime commitment, being in love is not seen as a requirement.

Maybe Tom could have gotten over the fact that Diana only saw him as hot and good father material (he was definitely hurt by this news, by the by), but as an international secret agent and vigilante, he never intended to have kids, it wouldn't be safe for him or them.

So Wonder Woman got dumped.
 
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