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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

I really don't read any of these side stories because it's always the same thing, Paul is in world, Paul discovers the shtick of the world, Paul gets in then out of trouble through the power of well worded and probably rehersed speeches on morality or something, rinse and repeat.
I read them all, for the same reason. It's a comfort food.
 
Ah stawman argument been awhile.
I wish it was a strawman. But I've seen too many people argue along lines even dumber than what this Paul tries to refute. And I hadn't read this particular angle of argument before (i.e. "Good and Evil" including the "disobedience/theft/lying is wrong and deserves death and abandonment" knowledge).
 
I read them all, for the same reason. It's a comfort food.
You know what I can see that, this fic has been going on so long with really small changes that it does remind me of classic comics. It's predictable, easily digested, kinda stale but in a good way like a old show you can watch again and again.
 
Always fun to see people try to tackle the problem of Hell . . . Not least of which because in my own case I'm part of a denomination that believes in universal reconciliation. Specifically, the idea that everyone will go to Heaven and that Hell is at the very worst a place synonymous with Purgatory. Those sent there are only there temporarily. Some are just there longer than others depending on the severity of their sins.

Now, obviously Brimstone doesn't roll with that interpretation. As I said, it seems to go with the idea that you need to seek forgiveness for the bad things you did in life. Especially because the main character is outright told that it was a lack of remorse when he killed his wife's rapist that got him sent to Hell, not the killing in and of itself.

So I guess there's that undercurrent of, "If you can't even be bothered to say you're sorry then you literally chose Hell."

Plus a little, "Of course you say you feel bad about it now. You're being punished and will say anything to make it stop."

And I think we only ever see one escapee that feels genuine remorse for the things they did and seeks to repent. Pretty sure everyone else just happily continues doing evil shit or at most just feels bad that they got punished without actually feeling bad about what they got punished for. (The one repentant guy was actually a Nazi.)
 
A straw man argument is when you are rebuting something a person did not say, to misrepresent their argument, and presumably to make it easier for you to argue.

Here he is refuting their points. Not a straw man.
If it's anything, it'd be a "weakman": people who make the argument exist, but they're picked to be easy to refute.

It's an open question if that's a bad thing.
 
If it's anything, it'd be a "weakman": people who make the argument exist, but they're picked to be easy to refute.

It's an open question if that's a bad thing.
I fear that the point is being missed. He's not trying to state what he believes to be true, he's trying to convince the person he's talking to not to burn anyone else to death.
 
I fear that the point is being missed. He's not trying to state what he believes to be true, he's trying to convince the person he's talking to not to burn anyone else to death.
Right, the argument would be something like "the fact that Paul happens to be talking to someone holding a particular flawed belief is the weakman." This is a view of narrative as polemic, where the point isn't inherently to tell a story but to convince readers by proxy of a particular view on Christian theology.

To be clear, I don't read it like that, but I can see how someone would.
 
Right, the argument would be something like "the fact that Paul happens to be talking to someone holding a particular flawed belief is the weakman." This is a view of narrative as polemic, where the point isn't inherently to tell a story but to convince readers by proxy of a particular view on Christian theology.

To be clear, I don't read it like that, but I can see how someone would.
Not really, because while people holding weak beliefs like thst might be outliers (but definitely not rare, met more than a few from church youth groups) it does tend to be outliers who go violent and start attacking people over those beliefs. Which is what is happening here.
 
I don't quite track how a general conversation about theology and hell is supposed to convince her not to burn people, but I suppose it was leading up to a "I can stop you from going to hell if you stop burning people". Interesting discussion on theology though.
 
And I think we only ever see one escapee that feels genuine remorse for the things they did and seeks to repent. Pretty sure everyone else just happily continues doing evil shit or at most just feels bad that they got punished without actually feeling bad about what they got punished for. (The one repentant guy was actually a Nazi.)
Of course that includes the detective. I doubt that he generally fells remorse for sending those souls back to hell.
 
I don't quite track how a general conversation about theology and hell is supposed to convince her not to burn people, but I suppose it was leading up to a "I can stop you from going to hell if you stop burning people". Interesting discussion on theology though.
It depends on their reason for burning people.
 
It depends on their reason for burning people.

I don't remember her episode, according to wikipedia she came to the conclusion that all men were pigs, so time to start the BBQ.

I don't know how much that was presented as "Yup, she's crazy" to "Well considering what she went through, no wonder she thinks like that."
 
Jet Fighter (part 11)
31st December 2012
22:53 GMT +1


"I had another vision."

Mr. Wasem doesn't look at me. He's sitting opposite me with his body facing me, but his head is turned off to the side. The three pilots I rescued are sitting in that general direction but I don't think he's looking at them.

"I had another vision, and-."

"And it was Mannheim. I'm sorry."

"He is… Doing something to the world, isn't he? After you took the hel-helmet off, I felt… The crushing despair. All my devotion-. I just wanted to help people-. I-I…"

"To be clear, Mannheim isn't God. False visions happen, as do lying false prophets. You were trying to do good for good reasons. God knows that."

"Perhaps… Perhaps it is just the… Shock… But at the moment, I do not know what to think. What I think. To think there is such… Evil in the universe."

"I realise that Kahndaq-."

His face turns back towards me, and for the first time I see a little of the real him. "No. That was the evil of men. The sort of evil that happened for all of history. What I feel in my soul, that is something… Something beyond."

"I know what you mean."

"I suppose… I suppose that you do." He shakes his head. "I was in the community centre. Then… Then it started. It was like…"

"Yeah."

"Like everything I had worked for was… It was a waste of time, like I had made the situation worse and that there was nothing that anyone could have done to make things better. To begin with, it was just… Something external, someone telling me that. People were screaming, panicking, and I tried… Tried calming them down. It… It didn't… Didn't work. I couldn't do it. Then… Then it wasn't outside any more. It was me, I believed it."

"Was that because they put the helmet on you?"

He bows his head slightly, then shakes it.

"No. No, it was not. When they-. When they came, with the helmets, I… I stepped forward. I wanted it, wanted… Wanted to complete the.. change, to… Accept what was happening, to know why it was happening. With the helmet on, I… Felt that I was a.. tiny, completely replaceable part of some… Great machine."

I nod. "And that was the right place for you, and it was right that the machine was there. And standing-"

He stares directly at me, his eyes widening slightly as he nods.

"-over it all is a malevolent divine power."

"Yes. Yes."

"If you're worried about anything… Anything blasphemous prayers you might have shouted while under the influence, don't. Heaven knows that mind control exists. God knows your heart."

"But what if my heart has been corrupted with my mouth?"

"Then you need to get to work on uncorrupting it. The people who put the helmet on you, were they wearing helmets themselves?"

"No. I recognized some of them from the Alliance. Superheroes, or just people who wanted to do some good in the world but didn't have faith in God."

"They weren't wearing helmets?"

He shakes his head.

"Were they wearing anything similar? Any… Sort of device that had the same design on it?"

"No, not… Not that I saw."

"Were there any other members of the Congregation there with you?"

"One man. He was affected in the same way that I was."

"Can you hear the rest of them?"

"I'm-." He shakes his head, then goes back to looking away. "I'm.. blocking it. We can still have privacy. I'm-. I am afraid of what I would feel."

I nod. "Understandable. Can you tell me what happened between them putting the helmet on you and you appearing here?"

"It-. It's not… With… That in my head, being all I could.. think of, where I was, what I was doing… It didn't matter. Just being part of the machine, doing what G-. What he wanted. Shooting you, shooting myself…" He trembles as he shakes his head. "It didn't matter. It was all the same."

"I don't suppose you got any sort of… Feel, for what other plans he might have?"

"No. Only that they were great and terrible and inevitable. I..?"

"Yes."

"How is..? Gotham? And Kahndaq?"

"Kahndaq's okay, actually. Teth Adom is able to use his magic to keep the Anti-Life out-."

"That's what it's called? I suppose it's appropriate."

"Yes, so Adrianna's leading the defence. It's one of two places in the world that look like they're holding out."

I look around, trying to get a feel of the mind state of the people of Norway. The Anti-Life is all around, but with a little help from Guy it's… Mostly at bay. I… Maybe Dr. Balewa can use Scandinavia to see what other tweaks he can make to keep things normal? If we can prevent them from physically invading, they can't have an infinite number of helmets. Even if they're getting them from Apokolips, it's just a matter of travelling there and destroying the factory.

"Look, I need to get back to it. Gotham is even less safe than normal, so I can leave you here or take you to Kahndaq."

He nods. "Is it a sign of weakness that I want to go to Kahndaq?"

"I don't think it's that unreasonable, given what happened to you."

"I would rather shelter under a pagan god…"

"I'm pretty sure that Kahndaq is going to play a major role when we retake the Earth, so feel free to volunteer when you've recovered a bit. To be honest, from the looks of things you wouldn't be much use at the moment."

He nods again. "No, I suppose not. Thank you."

"Orange Lantern to Blue Lantern."

"Go ahead."

"Robot defeated, Justifiers… I'll send you the file. One survivor, technique for fighting the robot acquired. I'm heading to Kahndaq now, but if you need me somewhere else..?"

"It looks like the Justifiers sent some people to your place in Bir Tawil. I think maybe you should take a look at it."
 
Last edited:
31st December 2012
22:53 GMT +1


"I had another vision."

Mr. Wasem doesn't look at me. He's sitting opposite me with his body facing me, but his head is turned off to the side. The three pilots I rescued are sitting in that general direction but I don't think he's looking at them.
Probably still feeling that feeling of helplessness and worthlessness, since there's nothing between it and his conscious mind but a little bit of determined focus. Sadly, there's no real way to protect him from it fully. Even Kahndaq isn't completely resistant.

"I had another vision, and-."

"And it was Mannheim. I'm sorry."
Yeah, seeing that ugly mug in your mind would suck hard enough to haul a golf-ball through a garden hose. And he's only a pale imitation of the real thing.

"He is… Doing something to the world, isn't he? After you took the hel-helmet off, I felt… The crushing despair. All my devotion-. I just wanted to help people-. I-I…"

"To be clear, Mannheim isn't God. False visions happen, as do lying false prophets. You were trying to do good for good reasons. God knows that."
I have the feeling a lot of people are going to be feeling like this even after they clear the Anti-Life away. Would not be surprised to find a rise in conversions and atheism overall.

"Perhaps… Perhaps it is just the… Shock… But at the moment, I do not know what to think. What I think. To think there is such… Evil in the universe."

"I realise that Kahndaq-."
Hmm... Can't remember for sure, but the name suggest he's an immigrant from Kahndaq? Been a long time since we saw this guy, after all... <Checks the link in the post two days back.> Ah, yes, That makes things clearer.

His face turns back towards me, and for the first time I see a little of the real him. "No. That was the evil of men. The sort of evil that happened for all of history. What I feel in my soul, that is something… Something beyond."

"I know what you mean."
Yes, OL's seen true evil, evil beyond the capability of mortal men. And he has rejoiced, because there's less of it after he finished...

"I suppose… I suppose that you do." He shakes his head. "I was in the community centre. Then… Then it started. It was like…"

"Yeah."
Like being smothered in a deep depression, so deep that it felt like a physical blow? Yeah, Anti-Life's like that.

"Like everything I had worked for was… It was a waste of time, like I had made the situation worse and that there was nothing that anyone could have done to make things better. To begin with, it was just… Something external, someone telling me that. People were screaming, panicking, and I tried… Tried calming them down. It… It didn't… Didn't work. I couldn't do it. Then… Then it wasn't outside any more. It was me, I believed it."
Oooh, that's a complex mixture of Anti-life Factors. And probably the ones that resonated most with him, since I doubt it's just something simple like Effort=Futility.

"Was that because they put the helmet on you?"

He bows his head slightly, then shakes it.
Ah, the insidious whispers. Making you start to believe what they say, to the point that it feels more like you're the one thinking it and they're just agreeing with you.

"No. No, it was not. When they-. When they came, with the helmets, I… I stepped forward. I wanted it, wanted… Wanted to complete the.. change, to… Accept what was happening, to know why it was happening. With the helmet on, I… Felt that I was a.. tiny, completely replaceable parts of some… Great machine."

I nod. "And that was the right place for you, and it was right that the machine was there. And standing-"
And that's what the whole universe would feel if Darkseid ever completed the equation the way He wants it to be. All life, kneeling and bowing their head to Him, moving at His will... Terrifying.

He stares directly at me, his eyes widening slightly as he nods.

"-over it all is a malevolent divine power."
Which would hit all the harder, because he's already disposed to bow to a Higher Power.

"Yes. Yes."

"If you're worried about anything… Anything blasphemous prayers you might have shouted while under the influence, don't. Heaven knows that mind control exists. God knows your heart."
Now, if he wanted to keep feeling that way, to knowingly and willingly do evil... That's a ticket Downstairs.

"But what if my heart has been corrupted with my mouth?"

"Then you need to get to work on uncorrupting it. The people who put the helmet on you, were they wearing helmets themselves?"
And depending on how hard this hit him, he may spend the rest of his life trying to atone...

"No. I recognized some of them from the Alliance. Superheroes, or just people who wanted to do some good in the world but didn't have faith in God."

"They weren't wearing helmets?"
Oh, that's worrying. I'm guessing because they had blobs of Anti-Life inserted directly into them via the teleportation system, it worked faster and stronger to control them.

He shakes his head.

"Were they wearing anything similar? Any… Sort of device that had the same design on it?"
Maybe some kind of Alliance badge that acted as an additional focus?

"No, not… Not that I saw."

"Were there any other members of the Congregation there with you?"
Not that they'd be in any shape to use their gifts...

"One man. He was affected in the same way that I was."

"Can you hear the rest of them?"
Ooh, good idea. He was being marinated in Anti-Life by the helmet, so of course he's have been directed by it.

"I'm-." He shakes his head, then goes back to looking away. "I'm.. blocking it. We can still have privacy. I'm-. I am afraid of what I would feel."

I nod. "Understandable. Can you tell me what happened between them putting the helmet on you and you appearing here?"
Thank you, Guy, for that buff to willpower...

"It-. It's not… With… That in my head, being all I could.. think of, where I was, what I was doing… It didn't matter. Just being part of the machine, doing what G-. What he wanted. Shooting you, shooting myself…" He trembles as he shakes his head. "It didn't matter. It was all the same."

"I don't suppose you got any sort of… Feel, for what other plans he might have?"
Nasty stuff. Anti-Life: not even once...

"No. Only that they were great and terrible and inevitable. I..?"

"Yes."
Well, that goes without saying. How much of that 'great, terrible, inevitable' plan is Mannheim's and how much is his masters' remains to be seen...

"How is..? Gotham? And Kahndaq?"

"Kahndaq's okay, actually. Teth Adom is able to use his magic to keep the Anti-Life out-."
Impressively so. Amazing what being on pleasant terms with your patrons will do for you.

"That's what it's called? I suppose it's appropriate."

"Yes, so Adrianna's leading the defence. It's one of two places in the world that look like they're holding out."
Norway being the other, of course. Good Guy keeping his girl's homeland safe.

I look around, trying to get a feel of the mind state of the people of Norway. The Anti-Life is all around, but with a little help from Guy it's… Mostly at bay. I… Maybe Dr. Balewa can use Scandinavia to see what other tweaks he can make to keep things normal? If we can prevent them from physically invading, they can't have an infinite number of helmets. Even if they're getting them from Apokolips, it's just a matter of travelling there and destroying the factory.
...You say that so casually. Given that the League's previous operation on Apokalips was more of a 'sneak in, smash, grab and run', I don't foresee it being that simple.

"Look, I need to get back to it. Gotham is even less safe than normal, so I can leave you here or take you to Kahndaq."

He nods. "Is it a sign of weakness that I want to go to Kahndaq?"
No, old fellow. Not at all. It's your homeland, after all, and probably the safest place for you right now.

"I don't think it's that unreasonable, given what happened to you."

"I would rather shelter under a pagan god…"
...Than one that seems to be sitting back and waiting for people to save themselves?

"I'm pretty sure that Kahndaq is going to play a major role when we retake the Earth, so feel free to volunteer when you've recovered a bit. To be honest, from the looks of things you wouldn't be much use at the moment."

He nods again. "No, I suppose not. Thank you."
Clever, giving him an out to avoid the fight if he feels the need. And to be fair, I suspect he needs it.

"Orange Lantern to Blue Lantern."

"Go ahead."
Time to call for a Tube, then.

"Robot defeated, Justifiers… I'll send you the file. One survivor, technique for fighting the robot acquired. I'm heading to Kahndaq now, but if you need me somewhere else..?"

"It looks like the Justifiers sent some people to your place in Bir Tawil. I think maybe you should take a look at it."
Oh, indulging a in a bit of Home Invasion, eh? Wonder if it's a general rummage, or if they're looking for anything specific?

Well, Norway's in safe hands, even if they're giant green-glowing ones. Time to see where else he can offer help. ...Once he sees off some burglars. Not sure what he might have there they'd be interested in, unless it's a case of the Dark Side thinking 'maybe there's some big alien guns to find'. Though I doubt OL would leave anything dangerous laying around there.
 
Didn't Paul leave a spare body there just in case?


Yes, its a clear chekovs gun. Paul should have secured his clone and sent it to Maltus.

Would be funny if Paul gets the same issues Grayven had, with a clone of his being turned into a new God in the service of Darkseid (sent the clone there to be awakened) and then his power being split with the clone.

You want to have a place that can flash clone you when you die, getting the clones ahead of time is just asking for trouble.
 
"They weren't wearing helmets

Hmm, wonder why that is.

They either could have been even more brainwashed and the helmets were for people that were likely to be able to resist.

Or the helmets were put on people with unique characteristics.

Wasem is basically a prophet so his soul may be greater than the average person.

Finality Man drained the Justifiers to heal itself, so maybe the helmets were put on people with strong metaphysical characteristics so that they can provide more energy.
 
I have the feeling a lot of people are going to be feeling like this even after they clear the Anti-Life away

The number of suicides will be on the rise.

Would not be surprised to find a rise in conversions and atheism overall.

Not atheism, since they have proof that God exists.

Granted, having proof has never stopped people from doing the opposite.

Antitheism may be on the rise, though.

If God allowed something like that to exist, then he doesn't deserve faith.

Now, if he wanted to keep feeling that way, to knowingly and willingly do evil... That's a ticket Downstairs.

After Anti-Life, Hell may be preferable.

Plus it's getting better since Mammon took over.

Though I am worried if all the people that die during this end up in Hell because of guilt.

We know from Lucifer and Sandman that feeling guilt can send a person to Hell, and Anti-Life can bring out guilt.

Oh, that's worrying. I'm guessing because they had blobs of Anti-Life inserted directly into them via the teleportation system, it worked faster and stronger to control them

Or the idea I had above about strong souls.

Ooh, good idea. He was being marinated in Anti-Life by the helmet, so of course he's have been directed by it.

Okay, now I'm worried.

Wasem has a connection to Heaven, so he can get messages from them.

What if the helmets can send Anti-Life through his connection to Heaven.
 
Not atheism, since they have proof that God exists.

Granted, having proof has never stopped people from doing the opposite.

Antitheism may be on the rise, though.

If God allowed something like that to exist, then he doesn't deserve faith.
I'm pretty sure antitheism was already on the rise after Heaven set the earth on fire and killed untold millions of people and then it was revealed that Angels don't have direct communication with God. So faith in a just God has taken a serious hit.
 
Given Wasem's talk about pagan gods, this might result in an even greater boon for non-monotheistic religions. Or just do what non-religious Jews did after the Holocaust, going "I don't care if God exists or not He's not taking my traditions away from me". clearly this is the time for a rise in Raoism the one true religion

Looks like Paul is getting recalled early. A Justified Paul clone... but would he have an orange ring? It can't be that simple.
 

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