With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Cuchulin · Sep 14, 2023

EdwardGrave said:
Really? never really endorsed animal sacrifice? even though the predecessor did this annually? they did, it just got less needed or they changed due to famines and stuff, it wasn't something that they just decided because now they had Jesus. Also, I think torture and killing to please god no matter the situation should count as Human Sacrifice (the witch hunts *wink**wink**nudge**nudge*)

I doubt even that even many of the more Semi/Hemi/Demi Jewish sects of early Christianity did much if any animal sacrifice because the Jewish Priest hood or at least the Temple priest hood were pretty dang firm about having people sacrifice at the temple in Jerusalem or it didn't count at all. Also things like Witch Hunts, Were Wolf hunts, The 1st crusade slaughtering every man, woman, child and maybe even dog until the streets of Jerusalem literally ran with blood? That was never central to the Religion, it was rarely fully endorsed by a church, were never really formally planned out before hand and were not a regular part of the faith. Such things were more like aberrations and exceptions that are due to the dark side of human nature.
In Aztec and most other Central America Religion on the other hand blood, real human blood not wine that has been turned into blood, was a central focus of the faith with rituals being performed regularly that involved either a ruler shedding his own blood (Mayan Kings impaling their tongues and dicks with a string ray spine to bleed onto a paper that was then burned) or killing another human being, throwing women into a Cenote to please the rain god was popular and of course the Aztecs were famous for cutting out the heart of a living person.

EdwardGrave said:
again, this is DC's interpretation, maybe this is official for this story but in reality there was no "god of human sacrifice" Huitzilopochtli is god of passion, will, SACRIFICE, sport, feats of endurance, and most importantly the SUN. so Sacrifice, not "Human Sacrifice" like "Jesus died for us" sacrifice AND sacrifice to the gods but not just Human Sacrifice

True, a god specifically of "Human Sacrifice" is a little silly. But my point was that in DC comics Human Sacrifice is still an important part of Aztec Religion as shown by Huitzilopochtli being listed as the god of such.

Chojin Patriarch · Sep 14, 2023

Mr Zoat said:
17th February 2013
14:58 GMT

Aztec… No? I mean, I wouldn't be astonished to learn that some of the Sons of Dawn picked up… Parts of their religion, but I can't see Hugo bringing back the more murderous parts of the religion. Most of his people have Euanthe as the most prominent deity, with various elemental beings becoming background figures. Some of those are loosely related to figure from old South American religions, but I don't… Think there's anything that could cause a change like this.

So it's definitely as big a surprise to him as it was to us readers. And I'm not surprised the Accala are adapting to the shifting nature of the world so well. The forest is their home, after all, and their protector. Why not worship it as personified by a plant-woman?

"That's news to me, oh Bast. Ah."

I mean, there's… Aztek, but I haven't seen any sign of him around. His secret society might still be active, but they're secret. And so far as I remember they don't really do anything like the old version of the religion. It's a little difficult to cut peoples' hearts out heroically.

Aztek? Man, there's a name I've not heard for a while. But wasn't he a plant by Lex Luthor underneath the 'secret society' trappings? And amusingly, it claims he was South American, but using the name of a Mexican/Central American culture. Mayincatec at its finest, huh?

"May I ask how they managed that?"

"No, but Tlazolteotl hasn't looked as good as she does now for… Longer than I can remember."

...I bet she'd be popular in certain more extreme porn communities...

Something like that couldn't happen without Zauriel noticing, right? I mean, I wouldn't mind if people switched to worshipping the Aztec gods as long as everybody's hearts remained where they are…

"What did she ask of you?"

Isn't the 'removing the hearts' thing supposed to be appeasement of some cthonic deity that would destroy the world otherwise? Seems... Kinda non-negotiable.

"That I visit her realm with a few friends. A peaceful visit between pantheons squeezed out by monotheism."

"I don't know enough about the Aztecs to suggest anything. Though I am a little surprised by the timing. I don't think there's been any sort of resurgence in their worship on Earth."

...That you've heard of, OL. This might be something relatively recent. Or it might be a ploy by the Anti-Life-infected...

"Then perhaps I should see for myself. Now that I have the power to have choices again, I enjoy using it."

"Uh, Sekhmet seemed annoyed about my suggestion that she replace Ares in the Olympian pantheon."

Oh, she's just naturally hot-tempered. Comes with the territory of being birthed to punish unbelievers and all that...

Bast blinks. "Did she say why?"

"She thought that I was trying to prostitute her and that I was making inappropriate cat jokes."

Which is honestly accurate. Still rude of you.

"I think that she's still annoyed about not getting to offer her power to Teth Adom. Granting him her stamina, strength or speed would have been a great advantage to us both."

"How do I calm her down?"

Interesting. So Adom's patrons are getting the greatest share of... Prayers? And the rest are getting some by association?

"You do what you did. I am her when calm. But perhaps a gift would not go amiss, delivered by messenger just in case."

"Thank you. I'll do-."

Preferably not something like catnip, OL. Perhaps an X-ionised khopesh or something?

"Ah." Kon takes a half-step towards her. "So, Nuala? Are you okay with us questioning people?"

Bast considers him for a moment, tail waving back and forth.

I suppose the warm sunny glow is soothing a few aches. One more little bonus.

"The covenant between man and cat is long since broken. But cat-spirits of all kinds come to my city, and they know where their dishes are filled. And they share what they see."

"And are you going to share with us?"

Go on, Kon, flash that sunny smile.

Her eyes narrow slightly, her left ear flicking. "They don't have cats on krypton, do they?"

Kon thinks for a moment. "I mean, not any more."

They probably had something similar to a feline. Kryptonian animals were weird.

Her ears flap, and she looks towards the steps. "And speaking of broken covenants…"

A large black cat walks up the steps, calmly looking us over before turning its attention to Bast. "I did what you asked."

Oh, someone's in trouble, I take it. Best to not get on your goddess' bad side, she's a killer.

"You did what I paid you for and used it as an excuse to entertain yourself. But if you want to stay in my realm, then you will take them to the ones the elves spoke to."

The panther's tail jerks from side to side. "Perhaps I don't."

Boy, regular old asshole, ain't he? Moreso than a regular cat, I mean.

"Oh goddess, it this creature annoying you? Because a little orange light makes all creatures more obedient."

The panther bears its teeth and crouches slightly.

Ah, the 'try it and we'll see how you taste' threat display.

"Oh don't even. You threw your weight around when you could, and now someone else is doing the same you're acting like it's inherently unreasonable. You can deal it but not take it."

Kon shakes his head, turning to Bast. "Have you ever considered getting a dog? Loyalty's, like, their defining trait. I got a wolf, and she's great."

...How is Wolf doing, anyway? She's smart, possibly enough for Anti-Life to affect her, isn't she?

"Those appear to be your choices." Bast walks right up to the panther, forcing it to crane its neck to maintain eye contact. "Do as I ask, be controlled, or be replaced. You may chose as you like. Now."

The panther holds out for a moment, then cringes, tail going down and teeth being once more covered by gums.

And when it comes down to it, he submits. Yes, smart fellow.

"I will obey."

"Good." Bast's eyes flash and the panther twitches, blinking rapidly. "My agents have shown you where to go. Take them there, guide them, and make it clear that anyone who doesn't answer promptly will earn my ire."

And don't try anything outside of those orders, hmm? I suspect the boss will be displeased if they get hurt through your actions...

"I will."

Bast turns back to us, head held high. "You two are interesting mortals. I expect to see you again when this is over."

We can but hope. Bast/Sekhmet is a fun goddess.

Kon and I bow politely, then walk over to where the clearly unhappy panther is waiting for us. Cernunnos joins us a moment later as Bast returns to her recliner and starts licking her right hand.

"I'm sorry. Sekhmet was out when I arrived. She said that I smelled too much like food to talk to."

Skittish for a god of the Hunt, aren't you? I guess it comes with the territory. Hunt and be hunted and all that.

"Not a problem."

I consider making a 'pussycat' comment, but decide against it.

...Do you want to get eaten, OL? Because I'm sure Sekhmet would oblige.

"Do you know what triggers the transformation in the other direction? I'd like to avoid it."

"She can trigger it voluntarily. The only other thing that I've seen trigger it is the scent of fresh blood."

So watch your words and try not to annoy her too much. I know, that's probably difficult for you.

"Don't bleed." I nod. "Good plan."

"Hey, ah…" Kon walks closer to the panther, which ignores him. "I'm Superboy."

I don't think Mister Black there cares, Kon.

"I don't care. I do this on sufferance." The panther turns away from the main thoroughfare and into a smaller alley. "The elves have spoken to many people, and as Bast has shown them to me so I will show them to you."

"Thanks. Look, I think we got off on the wrong foot. Orange Lantern can get a bit…" He glances back at me. "Demanding when he gets stressed. Can we pay you back for this?"

Be careful, Kon. A guy like this, he might take a mile if you offer him an inch.

"I've never eaten a member of your species before. Leave me your arm when you go, and I will be content."

Kon glances at me. Hm. Well, I can't easily cut his arm off or replace it, but I can synthesise a new arm and leave that. I nod.

"Sure. I can do something like that. So who are we going to see?"

And of course OL is fine with that. Because expediency and giving him what he wants is easier than negotiating.

So, then. A tour of Bubastis is in the cards, then. Hopefully the panther guy doesn't lead them on too circuitous a route, just to be an asshole. There is something of a time limit in play, after all. They should be smart enough to realise if he does take the long route about town. Then it's a matter of who knows what they need to know, and how much it will cost them...

moralrelativity · Sep 14, 2023

Mr Zoat said:
oosely related to figure from

figure -> figures

Cuchulin · Sep 14, 2023

Chojin Patriarch said:
Isn't the 'removing the hearts' thing supposed to be appeasement of some cthonic deity that would destroy the world otherwise? Seems... Kinda non-negotiable. .

As I recall they believed it was necessary or else the sun would grow cold, go dark and likely die which I think would trigger the end of the world which was something like the 8th version of the world with each pervious one having been destroyed one way or another. Also I'm pretty sure their after life was located in/on the sun, but It's been a while since I read about that or watched a video explaining it.

Chojin Patriarch said:
IPreferably not something like catnip, OL. Perhaps an X-ionised khopesh or something?.

Seem like a good gift for a War Goddess.

GhostKing 666 · Sep 14, 2023

Dur'id the Druid said:
So... after the current crisis we need to worry about gods who kept demanding more human sacrifice long after their region ran out of enemies to put on the altars?

Demand is the wrong word, with the wrong connotations. It wasn't so much demand as need. The Aztecs had this thing where you can't get something from nothing, that even the gods were bound by. The gods maintained the world and prevented it from ending, but this was a constant task that was understandably exhausting for the gods doing it. To keep them going, human sacrifice was used to give the gods the energy they needed to keep the universe going.

Or to keep the earth from eating you.

Aztec religion was very metal that way.

Duke Long · Sep 14, 2023

Mr Zoat said:
"They don't have cats on krypton, do they?"

'Krypton'

Mr Zoat said:
You may chose as you like. Now."

'choose'

If that Aztec goddess was better than Bast has ever seen her, that might mean she's even stronger than she was at the height of the Aztecs. Interesting.

Khornelius · Sep 14, 2023

Does anyone recognize who the Black Panther might be?

Mr Zoat · Sep 14, 2023

Ngamer11 said:
That should say 'is'.

moralrelativity said:
figure -> figures

Duke Long said:
'Krypton'
'choose'

Thank you, corrected.

Khornelius said:
Does anyone recognize who the Black Panther might be?

Shuri, probably. Assuming that they make another one.

Vaermina · Sep 14, 2023

Duke Long said:
If that Aztec goddess was better than Bast has ever seen her, that might mean she's even stronger than she was at the height of the Aztecs. Interesting.

That really should have wrung alarm bells in LePaul given what he's learned the last few chapters.

Because that's suggests someone or something is giving the Aztec's an absolutely huge boost. And the most likely source of that given the circumstances is Manaheim.

Nianque · Sep 14, 2023

Khornelius said:
Does anyone recognize who the Black Panther might be?

Maybe I'm wrong but... Aztec mythology has another god, one associated with black jaguars: Tezcatlipoca
Providence, the invisible and darkness, lord of the Night, Ruler of the North. Also associated with treachery and conflict

A particularly bloodthirsty god even for the Aztecs. Considering the rivalry with Quetzalcoatl, maybe Tezcatlipoca was ousted from the pantheon?

Rafin · Sep 14, 2023

Mr Zoat said:
"I've never eaten a member of your species before. Leave me your arm when you go, and I will be content."

Kon glances at me. Hm. Well, I can't easily cut his arm off or replace it, but I can synthesise a new arm and leave that. I nod.

"Sure. I can do something like that. So who are we going to see?"

Are they all ignoring that they are in the spirit realm and not fully corporeal? Giving your arm here is not the same as giving up a bunch of cells made out of molecules. To be frank, I am quite surprised that Sekhmet's attack on snake form Paul didn't have any spiritual consequences, given that it was essentially his soul that she was attacking, not a real snake that happened to be Paul but is otherwise fully affected by Wholeness Rightly Assumed.

Mr Zoat · Sep 14, 2023

Nianque said:
Maybe I'm wrong but... Aztec mythology has another god, one associated with black jaguars: Tezcatlipoca
Providence, the invisible and darkness, lord of the Night, Ruler of the North. Also associated with treachery and conflict

A particularly bloodthirsty god even for the Aztecs. Considering the rivalry with Quetzalcoatl, maybe Tezcatlipoca was ousted from the pantheon?

Ah, the panther is actually a black smilodon from The Sandman Presents: Bast.

Venustoise · Sep 14, 2023

Mr Zoat said:
"Oh goddess, is this creature annoying you? Because a little orange light makes all creatures more obedient."

OL: I shall call them Teekl II.
Panther: My name is-
OL: Assimilate. Teekl II.
Teekl II: Yes, Master.

Khornelius · Sep 14, 2023

Mr Zoat said:
Shuri, probably. Assuming that they make another one.

hahaha!

Okay that was pretty good. I was only asking because I didn't know if this is a returning character of the story or someone new.

Darko · Sep 14, 2023

Mr Zoat said:
It's a little difficult to cut peoples' hearts out heroically.

I guess you can make it heroic if the people who are losing their hearts are really, really evil.

Professor Black did that.

Mr Zoat said:
Something like that couldn't happen without Zauriel noticing, right

Even if he noticed it he may nut have thought it necessary to inform you.

Mr Zoat said:
"That I visit her realm with a few friends. A peaceful visit between pantheons squeezed out by monotheism

Either the Shinto are implementing that little plan of theirs, or it's a trap.

Vaermina mentioned Manheim potentially being involved, and I'm afraid that they may have a point.

A lot of people are dying, so Manheim may be trying to use some gods to get rid of other gods by offering them power from death.

Steelplaza · Sep 14, 2023

Worshippers are one power source for gods, but as we've seen another is... well, the Source. And as we've also seen, you don't need to be a nice deity to draw on the Source. Could be that Manheim made a deal with the Aztec gods somehow. Being the New God of Human Sacrifice definitely sounds like an Apokolips thing to me, especially if you broaden the conceptual definition beyond "literally someone on an altar" to "tossing countless lowlies into the gears of industry so that their blood may oil the machine".

Darko · Sep 14, 2023

Chojin Patriarch said:
...I bet she'd be popular in certain more extreme porn communities

So maybe the Shinto are involved.

Hentai and all that.

Chojin Patriarch said:
Interesting. So Adom's patrons are getting the greatest share of... Prayers? And the rest are getting some by association?

Cernunnos mentioned that the Cornwall men are providing them with some power, so the same may be true with Adom.

People look up to Adom and respect him.

His citizens probably have pictures of him in their homes, can name streets after him, have statues erected in his honor.

It may not be full worship, but it probably still has power.

Power that his patrons can collect.

Patrick Holt · Sep 14, 2023

Assblaster5000 said:
I don't really care about the rest of this argument, and the other guy is being a bit cringe about their points from what little I read, but this point is kind of stupid. Like, by that same logic you could argue most European monarchs didn't exist/rule because The Divine Right Of Kings was a thing based on their preferred deity "giving" them the right to rule.

Not exactly the same obviously, but if a connection to the divine, real or not, is the disqualifier for existence then, uh, we've got a bigger problem than which gods where or weren't assholes.

Thank you, that's kind of what I was trying for, highlighting absurdity by being absurd. So I seem to have backed into my point but, may need to be more absurd the next time so the point is better made.

Odysseus2099 · Sep 14, 2023

Duke Long said:
If that Aztec goddess was better than Bast has ever seen her, that might mean she's even stronger than she was at the height of the Aztecs. Interesting.

The specific goddess in question is called the sin-eater, and is supposed to devour sin and impurity to restore the purity of her worshipers. If she doesn't have new worshipers, maybe she found a new source of sin.

Darko · Sep 14, 2023

Steelplaza said:
Worshippers are one power source for gods, but as we've seen another is... well, the Source. And as we've also seen, you don't need to be a nice deity to draw on the Source. Could be that Manheim made a deal with the Aztec gods somehow. Being the New God of Human Sacrifice definitely sounds like an Apokolips thing to me, especially if you broaden the conceptual definition beyond "literally someone on an altar" to "tossing countless lowlies into the gears of industry so that their blood may oil the machine".

I'm getting some Howl flashbacks from this.

And now I'm wondering if Moloch will show up.

Cuchulin · Sep 15, 2023

Mr Zoat said:
Ah, the panther is actually a black smilodon from The Sandman Presents: Bast.

Thought so, he was a very clever Kitty who ended up ruining Basts plan in that story.

Odysseus2099 said:
The specific goddess in question is called the sin-eater, and is supposed to devour sin and impurity to restore the purity of her worshipers. If she doesn't have new worshipers, maybe she found a new source of sin.

Sounds like it might work.

Mr Zoat · Sep 15, 2023

4th Sigmarzeit 2512
Morning

Lady Richilde frowns. "…a vampire?"

Sir Mallobaude nods. "As a Questing Knight, I should slay him. But Sir Paol recounted to me the history of Count Vlad von Carstein and I realised that as his peasants lack a human knight to protect them, he is their only defence against the mutants and monsters common in this Dukedom."

The look she gives me is significantly less friendly. "Von Carstein? Who tried to conquer the Empire and turn it into another Land of the Dead?"

"Ah-."

"As it was recounted to me, the peasants of Sylvania paid him and his family a tithe of blood in place of their crops. It disturbed me to think of it, but upon reflection… How different is that to what we Bretonni do?"

"Unless you drink blood, it is quite different."

"We take the majority of the produce of their labour in return for our protection. Under a vampire a peasant may die of blood loss, it is true. But if a peasant does not have enough to eat, is his body not weakened? Is he not more susceptible to disease? Is his capacity to labour not reduced?"

"Vampires slay their peasants on a whim."

Mallobaude's face shifts to a more sombre expression. "And if you believe that knights do not, I could recount those incidents that I myself have witnessed. Oh, they do not eat them, but there are trivial acts which knights consider to impinge upon their honour that can result in a peasant being cut down. And not a soul will speak against it." He shakes his head. "Ultimately, it is the behaviour of the man that I will judge, and while there are many knights more noble than Sir Gwilym, there are all too many less."

Sir Gwilym was the chap who tried to talk Mallobaude around to the dark side when we first met. He's actually my closest neighbour, and… Yeah, he's not worse than the majority of local rulers. Which is an issue, because while I suspect that followers of the Chaos Gods are being rallied against men all over the world, he's right there. And there are more than enough unhallowed corpses in the area for him to put together a decent sized army if he wanted to.

As far as I can tell he's a Blood Dragon but not a member of the Order of the Blood Dragon, a descendant of Abhorash but not of Walach Harkon... But how closely he follows that ideal is debatable to say the least. Abhorash would have wanted him to go on a tour of the highest concentrations of monsters in the world in order to master his blade and himself, while he mostly just lives like a normal aristocrat. He is willing to talk to people he considers to be in his social class, which is why he merely responded to my persuasion of Mallobaude with ill grace and an invitation to visit him if he changes his mind rather than going into a frenzy.

Lady Richilde takes a moment to gather her thoughts before turning to me.

"And do your plans include reuniting the Duchy of Mousillon under Sir Mallobaude?"

Mallobaude shakes his head. "By the Bretonnian Laws of Chivalry I am a Questing Knight. I cannot claim a seat until I drink from the grail, and… That seems unlikely to occur. While I consider my deeds here to be virtuous, they are not the sort which the Lady rewards."

She frowns. "Have you abandoned your quest?"

"I… Did, but…" He sighs. "I… I misunderstood.. certain things about my faith. I was despondent when I came here, and not… Clear of thought. Having had time to reflect… Upon my faith and vows, it may be that when I am no longer needed here I will continue my quest."

I reach over and pat him on the arm. "Granting him the Duchy would be a matter for the king, though I'm not aware of any heirs of the former duke's line."

He shakes his head. "If I became duke, I would have to see to the appointment of a new Knight of the Realm to this village. Unless you wanted to take the Knight's Oath."

"Honestly, I'd be happy to hand over local administration, but I fear that we're getting off-topic. Lady Richilde, I think that's about all of it. Was there something that particularly concerned you?"

"Yes. Vampirism."

"I assure you that I'm not a vampire. Queen Khalida was killed by Queen Nerferata, and she hates all of vampire-kind. My point is that a vampire should be judged by the same metric as anyone else."

"No, though I am glad of it. I am asking because I do not see how a man could do all that you say that you want to do within a mortal lifespan."

I nod. "Not see it all to completion, certainly. I mean, if everything goes really well and everyone pulls together, I think the Empire's road network could be completed before my fiftieth birthday." I huff-laugh. "So maybe eight times that, optimistically. Wait, did you think I was planning on becoming a vampire so I could see it all happen?"

"I was considering it."

"Oh, no. No. The ring responds to my desires."

"It can make you immortal?"

"Do you see a single scuff, notch or other flaw in the door? Any gap between the tiles, the bricks or the flagstones?"

She frowns, looking around. "No?"

"No stains on the countertop?"

She gives her head a little shake. "I don't understand the point you are trying to make."

"I abhor decay. In civilisation, yes, but also in my environment and my person. I abhor things getting worse. I'm not doing this because I'm a moral person who has decided that it's the best use of his abilities in a 'with great power comes great responsibility' sort of way. I do it because… Have you ever seen a Herdstone?"

"No, but I have heard descriptions."

"It's viscerally disgusting. The first time I saw one I was filled with the certainly that things like that Should Not Exist. So they don't. Same thing with my body decaying. I can fix injuries to my body by my own revulsion at the thought of being damaged. So… Yeah. Daemon Princes and vampires are more immortal than me, but I don't have to worry about ageing to death."

Mallobaude looks at me quizzically. "I know that daemons who are physically destroyed return to the hell-realm that spawned them, but what mean you when you say that vampires are immortal? Any number of vampires have been slain in Bretonnia alone."

"Ah. Temporarily. You see, a normal person is connected to their own presence in the…" Not 'the warp', they wouldn't be familiar with the term. "The realm of magic. Their soul. It's connected to their body until they die, at which point it's cast loose. If they've made the appropriate preparations then it will be picked up by their god, and if they haven't then it'll just drift until a daemon consumes it. With me so far?"

Two nods.

"Part of the process of becoming a vampire causes the soul to be brought into the physical world and merged with their body. That's why vampires can't undergo Chaos-based mutation or be marked by the Gods of Chaos. But it also means that they can't ever enter an afterlife. Instead, when their body is destroyed, their soul is bound to their remains and gradually soaks up dhar until it can repair their body and… Then they're ready to go again. It's why I dump the bodies of the vampires I kill on Mannslieb, and why witch hunters who've got the time burn their bodies and mix the ashes with silver and quicklime before spreading it over a wide area. It's why other vampires put the bodies of their fallen in Black Coaches: so they can absorb power from death as they go and speed up their resurrection."

Lady Richilde's eyes widen. "Then every vampire… Even Vlad von Carstein and his accursed heir Mannfred-."

"Oh, Mannfred's already back. One of the reasons why I'm staying away from Sylvania is that he's one of the few people on the planet who could kill me."

At least until my armour's ready. Master Runes are not to be rushed. And assuming that I have time with everything else, because stabilising Sylvania is going to be a long term task. There's a smaller chance of him finding out about me than Malekith, so I'm not prioritising him.

"He's back?"

"Yes, but he's trying to unify Sylvania at the moment so it's not urgent. And if we get the roads set up we could reduce his access to dhar to the point where he can't raise an entire army. So what do I need to do to win the support of the Electors?"

Ganurath · Sep 15, 2023

Telling them that Mannfred's back, and that your plan is bad for his ambitions against the Empire, ought to help.

Chojin Patriarch · Sep 15, 2023

Mr Zoat said:
4th Sigmarzeit 2512
Morning

Lady Richilde frowns. "…a vampire?"

Sir Mallobaude nods. "As a Questing Knight, I should slay him. But Sir Paol recounted to me the history of Count Vlad von Carstein and I realised that as his peasants lack a human knight to protect them, that he is their only defence against the mutants and monsters common in this Dukedom."

And slaying a Vampire Lord of his ascended rank is no easy feat even for a might Grail Knight. A mere Questor? It's more likely that Mal would be strung up in the Carstein dungeons to slowly be bled dry over months or years for the insult.

The look she gives me is significantly less friendly. "Von Carstein? Who tried to conquer the Empire and turn it into another Land of the Dead?"

"Ah-."

No, they're not a nice family, any of them.

"As it was recounted to me, the peasants of Sylvania paid him and his family a tithe of blood in place of their crops. It disturbed me to think of it, but upon reflection… How different is that to what we Bretonni do?"

"Unless you drink blood, it is quite different."

In a metaphorical sense, madame.

"We take the majority of the produce of their labour in return for our protection. Under a vampire a peasant may die of blood loss, it is true. But if a peasant does not have enough to eat, is his body not weakened? Is he not more susceptible to disease? Is his capacity to labour not reduced?"

"Vampires slay their peasants on a whim."

And knights don't? It's much like the Samurai, who at times could slay any lesser for any perceived slight at will.

Mallobaude's face shifts to a more sombre expression. "And if you believe that knights do not, I could recount those incidents that I myself have witnessed. Oh, they do not eat them, but there are trivial acts which knights consider to impinge upon their honour that can result in a peasant being cut down. And not a soul will speak against it." He shakes his head. "Ultimately, it is the behaviour of the man that I will judge, and while there are many knights more noble than Sir Gwilym, there are all too many less."

Which is why the ideal of the Grail is so rarely achieved.

Sir Gwilym was the chap who tried to talk Mallobaude around to the dark side when we first met. He's actually my closest neighbour, and… Yeah, he's not worse than the majority of local rulers. Which is an issue, because while I suspect that followers of the Chaos Gods are being rallied against men all over the world, he's right there. And there are more than enough unhallowed corpses in the area for him to put together a decent sized army if he wanted to.

Since even a less-skilled vampire can animate some measure of undead as soldiers.

As far as I can tell he's a Blood Dragon but not a member of the Order of the Blood Dragon, a descendant of Abhorash but not of Walach Harkon... But how closely he follows that ideal debatable to say the least. Abhorash would have wanted him to go on a tour of the highest concentrations of monsters in the world in order to master his blade and himself, while he mostly just lives like a normal aristocrat. He is willing to talk to people he considers to be in his social class, which is why he merely responded to my persuasion of Mallobaude with ill grace and an invitation to visit him if he changes his mind rather than going into a frenzy.

And no doubt Paol made it clear that hostile action against him and his will be met in kind?

In as polite a way as he could to avoid an immediate insult or challenge.

Lady Richilde takes a moment to gather her thoughts before turning to me.

"And do your plans include reuniting the Duchy of Mousillon under Sir Mallobaude?"

Who would want that shithole? Not before it's completely cleaned up, I suspect.

Mallobaude shakes his head. "By the Bretonnian Laws of Chivalry I am a Questing Knight. I cannot claim a seat until I drink from the grail, and… That seems unlikely to occur. While I consider my deeds here to be virtuous, they are not the sort which the Lady rewards."

She frowns. "Have you abandoned your quest?"

Don't let doubt defeat you, Mal. In some tales, accepting that little voice saying you're not worthy is enough to make you so.

"I… Did, but…" He sighs. "I… I misunderstood.. certain things about my faith. I was despondent when I came here, and not… Clear of thought. Having had time to reflect… Upon my faith and vows, it may be that when I am no longer needed here I will continue my quest."

I reach over and pat him on the arm. "Granting him the Duchy would be a matter for the king, though I'm not aware of any heirs of the former duke's line."

And even if they could be found, they're unlikely to want to claim it. Given its dark reputation.

He shakes his head. "If I became duke, I would have to see to the appointment of a new Knight of the Realm to this village. Unless you wanted to take the Knight's Oath."

"Honestly, I'd be happy to hand over local administration, but I fear that we're getting off-topic. Lady Richilde, I think that's about all of it. Was there something that particularly concerned you?"

I'm sure there are many things. Let's start off small, though.

"Yes. Vampirism."

"I assure you that I'm not a vampire. Queen Khalida was killed by Queen Nerfarata, and she hates all of vampire-kind. My point is that a vampire should be judged by the same metric as anyone else."

Even given the blood-thirst and occasional frenzied rages?

"No, though I am glad of it. I am asking because I do not see how a man could do all that you say that you want to do within a mortal lifespan."

I nod. "Not see it all to completion, certainly. I mean, if everything goes really well and everyone pulls together, I think the Empire's road network could be completed before my fiftieth birthday." I huff-laugh. "So maybe eight times that, optimistically. Wait, did you think I was planning on becoming a vampire so I could see it all happen?"

At least he's being realistic about how long it'll take to get things properly organised.

"I was considering it."

"Oh, no. No. The ring responds to my desires."

Though controlling which ones you focus on, that's what takes talent.

"It can make you immortal?"

"Do you see a single scuff, notch or other flaw in the door? Any gap between the tiles, the bricks or the flagstones?"

Which would put it well ahead of most buildings of the era, dwarvish-built or not.

She frowns, looking around. "No?"

"No stains on the countertop?"

He runs a clean shop, so to speak.

She gives her head a little shake. "I don't understand the point you are trying to make."

"I abhor decay. In civilisation, yes, but also in my environment and my person. I abhor things getting worse. I'm not doing this because I'm a moral person who has decided that it's the best use of his abilities in a 'with great power comes great responsibility' sort of way. I do it because… Have you ever seen a Herdstone?"

And honestly, most of those in power in this world don't live up to that lofty ideal anyway.

"No, but I have heard descriptions."

"It's viscerally disgusting. The first time I saw one I was filled with the certainly that things like that Should Not Exist. So they don't. Same thing with my body decaying. I can fix injuries to my body by my own revulsion at the thought of being damaged. So… Yeah. Daemon Princes and Vampires are more immortal than me, but I don' t have to worry about aging to death."

But take away his Ring, and well... He's just an ordinary man, after all...

Mallobaude looks at me quizzically. "I know that daemons who are physically destroyed return to the hell-realm that spawned them, but what mean you when you say that vampires are immortal? Any number of vampires have been slain in Bretonnia alone."

"Ah. Temporarily. You see, a normal person is connected to their own presence in the…" Not 'the warp', they wouldn't be familiar with the term. "The realm of magic. Their soul. It's connected to their body until they die, at which point it's cast loose. If they've made the appropriate preparations then it will be picked up by their god, and if they haven't then it'll just drift until a daemon consumes it. With me so far?"

Two nods.

And that's not hyperbole. Ghosts are very much a thing. And often dragged into necromantic hosts.

"Part of the process of becoming a vampire causes the soul to be brought into the physical world and merged with their body. That's why vampires can't undergo chaos-based mutation or be marked by the Gods of Chaos. But it also means that they can't ever enter an afterlife. Instead, when their body is destroyed, their soul is bound to their remains and gradually soaks up dhar until it can repair their body and… Then they're ready to go again. It's why I dump the bodies of the vampires I kill on Mannslieb, and why witch hunters who've got the time burn their bodies and mix the ashes with silver and quicklime before spreading it over a wide area. It's why other vampires put the bodies of their fallen in Black Coaches; so they can absorb power from death as they go and speed up their resurrection."

Whereas blood taken from unwilling victims is laden with it. So pouring the blood of human sacrifices onto the ash... Well, let's just say that part is on theme courtesy of Hammer vampire movies.

Lady Richilde's eyes widen. "Then every vampire… Even Vlad von Carstein and his accursed heir Mannfred-."

"Oh, Mannfred's already back. One of the reasons why I'm staying away from Sylvania is that he's one of the few people on the planet who could kill me."

Not nearly magic resistant enough to shake off things like having his soul ripped out of him by some of the stronger Necromantic spells, after all.

At least until my armour's ready. Master Runes are not to be rushed. And assuming that I have time with everything else, because stabilising Sylvania is going to be a long term task. There's a smaller chance of him finding out of me than Malekith, so I'm not prioritising him.

"He's back?"

"Yes, but he's trying to unify Sylvania at the moment so it's not urgent. And if we get the roads set up we could reduce his access to dhar to the point where he can't raise an entire army. So what do I need to do to win the support of the Electors?"

Plus the fact that Sylvania is practically on the other side of the Empire's southern borders. So as much as a thousand miles away.

Yes, that's a bomb that would certainly light a fire under the Empire's leadership. Sadly, it'd probably result in hundreds, if not thousands, of Witch Hunters marching off to 'clean up' Sylvania and basically throw themselves into the meat-grinder. Never mind the conventional armies. And likely push the Vampires into their own counter-invasion decades ahead of plan. So let's not let that slip, eh?

Mquz · Sep 15, 2023

What's a Herdstone? Tried looking it up in the wiki and it's just a corrupted waystone? A rock with maybe some spikes and skulls attached - not something particularly disgusting. Is there some older lore about how gross it is?

KaiKolo · Sep 15, 2023

This post reminds me of a thread that discussed the ethics when it comes to vampires preying on humans.

When it comes to vampires, blood drinkers without demonic influence, I would think that it would be in their best interests for humanity to prosper and to not kill people en masse.

Medicine, hospitals, blood banks, fertility clinics, child care facilities, and protection for humans would be worth while investments for a vampire with time and resources.

Mr Zoat · Sep 15, 2023

Mquz said:
What's a Herdstone? Tried looking it up in the wiki and it's just a corrupted waystone? A rock with maybe some spikes and skulls attached - not something particularly disgusting. Is there some older lore about how gross it is?

The Herdstone is the centre of the beastman community and their religious worship. They deliberately turn it into a nexus of chaos magic. The spikes and skulls aren't just spikes and skulls -not once it gets going- but mystical totems of the destruction of organised civilisation.

KaiKolo said:
This post reminds me of a thread that discussed the ethics when it comes to vampires preying on humans.

When it comes to vampires, blood drinkers without demonic influence, I would think that it would be in their best interests for humanity to prosper and to not kill people en masse.

Medicine, hospitals, blood banks, fertility clinics, child care facilities, and protection for humans would be worth while investments for a vampire with time and resources.

That's all true, but very few vampires who aspire to power are rational enough to see it that way. Mostly they're either arrogant arseholes like Mannfred, or more humanlike in their outlook like Genevieve Dieudonné.

Vaermina · Sep 15, 2023

Mr Zoat said:
"Part of the process of becoming a vampire causes the soul to be brought into the physical world and merged with their body. That's why vampires can't undergo chaos-based mutation or be marked by the Gods of Chaos. But it also means that they can't ever enter an afterlife. Instead, when their body is destroyed, their soul is bound to their remains and gradually soaks up dhar until it can repair their body and… Then they're ready to go again. It's why I dump the bodies of the vampires I kill on Mannslieb, and why witch hunters who've got the time burn their bodies and mix the ashes with silver and quicklime before spreading it over a wide area. It's why other vampires put the bodies of their fallen in Black Coaches; so they can absorb power from death as they go and speed up their resurrection."

A lot of wrong information in here, was Paolo unknowingly put under Vampire Domination?

The idea that they don't mutate is especially hilarious given there's a bit in 2nd edition describing just how horribly they mutate.

néocorvinus · Sep 15, 2023

Mquz said:
What's a Herdstone? Tried looking it up in the wiki and it's just a corrupted waystone? A rock with maybe some spikes and skulls attached - not something particularly disgusting. Is there some older lore about how gross it is?

It's radiating dhar, raw chaos magic, and generally a place of worship for beastmen. It is basically an altar to the defilement of nature and the end of civilization.

Duke Long · Sep 15, 2023

Mr Zoat said:
But Sir Paol recounted to me the history of Count Vlad von Carstein and I realised that as his peasants lack a human knight to protect them, that he is their only defence against the mutants and monsters common in this Dukedom."

Extraneous 'that' after the comma.

Mr Zoat said:
But how closely he follows that ideal debatable to say the least.

'is debatable'

Mr Zoat said:
Queen Khalida was killed by Queen Nerfarata, and she hates all of vampire-kind.

'Neferata'?

Mr Zoat said:
Daemon Princes and Vampires are more immortal than me, but I don' t have to worry about aging to death."

Space between 'don'' and 't'.
'vampires'?
Maybe 'ageing'? But you might just prefer that spelling.

Mr Zoat said:
That's why vampires can't undergo chaos-based mutation or be marked by the Gods of Chaos.

'Chaos-based'?

Mr Zoat said:
It's why I dump the bodies of the vampires I kill on Mannslieb, and why witch hunters who've got the time burn their bodies and mix the ashes with silver and quicklime before spreading it over a wide area.

I suppose there's no dhar up there since there are no Polar Gates? But it's interesting to imagine that Paol is creating a lunar vampire colony.

Mr Zoat said:
There's a smaller chance of him finding out of me than Malekith, so I'm not prioritising him.

'finding out about me'?

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