• The site has now migrated to Xenforo 2. If you see any issues with the forum operation, please post them in the feedback thread.
  • Due to issues with external spam filters, QQ is currently unable to send any mail to Microsoft E-mail addresses. This includes any account at live.com, hotmail.com or msn.com. Signing up to the forum with one of these addresses will result in your verification E-mail never arriving. For best results, please use a different E-mail provider for your QQ address.
  • For prospective new members, a word of warning: don't use common names like Dennis, Simon, or Kenny if you decide to create an account. Spammers have used them all before you and gotten those names flagged in the anti-spam databases. Your account registration will be rejected because of it.
  • Since it has happened MULTIPLE times now, I want to be very clear about this. You do not get to abandon an account and create a new one. You do not get to pass an account to someone else and create a new one. If you do so anyway, you will be banned for creating sockpuppets.
  • Due to the actions of particularly persistent spammers and trolls, we will be banning disposable email addresses from today onward.
  • The rules regarding NSFW links have been updated. See here for details.

With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Gateway (part 12)
Early Autumn, IC 687

The senate is a place for grandstanding, for decrying members of the opposing factions and cheering on your own. Actual decisions aren't made there; votes take place once the fix is already in, once the decisions have been made by the opinion-formers in rooms much like this one.

Never let the senate make a decision when you don't know what the result will be.

The Emperor, a legate, a couple of tribunes, a few senior senators from factions loyal either to the Emperor or in favour of aggressive expansion. Not even a token dove. No merchants. No one representing the vassal kingdoms. Diabo's seat is at the opposite end of the table to his father's far grander seat, and the places to his left and right are deliberately left vacant.

If Diabo can convince these people to go along with his treaty, that's the matter settled. It will pass in the senate, the emperor won't veto it and the army won't protest.

If.

"A single crate of gold as a token tribute." Senator Giusto glares contemptuously, not bothering to disguise his feelings now that the setting is more private. "What do they really want?"

Diabo bears the hard eyes well. Certainly better than he would have done at the start. He's using the ring's power to do it, but I'm not having to prompt him. I'm genuinely pleased with his progress.

"A single chest, filled to the brim with gold. And under the gold-" A slight relaxing of people who've just seen where the other shoe is going to drop from. "-they have requested enchanted… Objects."

The military tribute frowns. "What sort of objects?"

"Anything." Diabo shrugs. "I took care to play down what we can actually do with magic, and they didn't seem to care. They are a people who highly value natural philosophy. They don't want to use the… Talismen we will give them. They want to study them, to try and understand how magic works, and how what they think they know of how the universe works is wrong. Even… Copper coins enchanted to glow would be sufficient."

The furrows on the military tribute's face deepen.

"And what will they do with that understanding?"

"That is a problem for their neighbours on their world." Diabo smiles. "By the standards of their world, the nation of Japan is not a first rate power. They are a protectorate that has recently had a dispute with their protector and it is…. Unclear whether or not their treaties are in effect. That does not help us, but it means that Japan has enemies on their own world and cannot afford a prolonged campaign even if they could guarantee that the gate would remain open. While I was there a group of extraordinarii from one of their enemies infiltrated the villa where I was staying, in the centre of their country."

The legate looks intensely interested. "Could we make contact with these enemies?"

"Legate Julius, it wouldn't matter if we could. This nation whose soldiers have no experience of war, whose treaty with their protector binds them to only having a small defensive force, destroyed our legions with little effort. The only way for us to enter their territory is through the gate, and they have fortified both sides. Certainly, I could send them a message, but the gate is in the middle of the Japanese capital city. They could hold the wall around their side of it with a token force until the entirety of their country was overran. We would not profit by it, and we would have a stronger neighbour at the end of it with no love for us for the spoiling attack that we are in no position to make."

"The grain." One of the other senators looks thoughtful. "Why do they need grain? Are they having a famine?"

"No, no. As I said, they have poor soil. Their main cereal crop is something called 'rice'. It is not very nutritious. They can import food from other nations, but it is relatively expensive. We can supply their capital easily from our main farming region at what is for them a far lower cost."

Senator Giusto frowns. "What do you mean, 'for them'?"

"Remember how much more advanced their industry is. Consider how the barbarians value… Polished stones, or beads or feathers. Such things are valuable to them, but a curiosity at most to us. And then imagine what they would pay for a single sword of good steel such as we issue to the legions by the thousand. Flour is the only thing that we can give them in a meaningful quantity that they actually want, not because they need extra food but because what they will give us in return has little value to them."

The Emperor's face is entirely impassive. "What did you agree to trade?"

"Books relating to industry. They would not agree to trade anything from the last eighty years, but we could not use that anyway. They will trade with us books describing how to take the first steps on the road to building the devices they have for ourselves, the steps they once took when they fought as we do."

"Will that let us make weapons like theirs?"

Diabo shakes his head. "Not for a century. My Emperor, this isn't about beating them. It's about beating our neighbours here. Once we have the alchemical formula for the powder that drives their bullets, we will be able to make the very simplest weapons of that type. A 'smoothbore cannon'. A weapon that fires with the power of a trebuchet, but faster, and takes up less space. A weapon that could be mounted on a ship by the dozen. For them, such a weapon is three hundred years out of date, but for us it would turn our navy from an afterthought to the most powerful in the world."

"How long?"

"An improved steel process could be implemented inside a year. Properly forging a metal tube when they are providing the instructions should take a month or so. How long it takes to make the powder depends on whether the components can be bought or must be sought afresh, but it should not be more than two months and may be as little as a day. Learning to combine them and how to speed up the process might take a few months more. By the end of the second year I should have a group of working cannons to show you. Cannons that can demolish a city wall. Or destroy a legion."

Legate Julius looks thoughtful. "How would it destroy a legion? A trebuchet might break a formation if it struck true, but they would reform a moment later."

"A cannon can fire a single large bullet to destroy walls or make a hole in a formation, but it can also be used to fire 'grape shot'. That is a bundle of smaller bullets. The range is far less, but they-" He moves his hands forward, spreading out as they move. "-will destroy any man who stands before them. Would you not want to do to others what the Japanese did to us?"

There are several meaningful glances from one man to the next. Yes, that's it. You need a war to save yourselves, a successful war. The Japanese are there, but you can't beat them. So…

"Such a weapon would not let us hold territory."

"Take a city and ransom it back. Or just destroy it from a distance and demand payment from its neighbours. They would no more understand what they were being struck by than our legionaries did."

The Emperor raises his right hand slightly, and everybody waits.

"How many slaves do they actually expect to have returned?"

"All of them. They have machines which can… Tell how much blood two people share. Our blood is different enough from theirs that it is easy for them to tell their people from ours. That condition is absolute. If they find out that we have played them false, they will go to wherever the slaves are and kill everyone they find there to free them."

Because he and I will tell them where that is. And we have just told the Emperor what to do to rid himself of a few troublesome senators.

The Emperor smiles.

"If this is the treaty, and what you say about their industry is true, then you have done the Empire a great service, my son. What reward do you want in return?"

Diabo looks away for a moment.

"Long ago, our ancestors came through a gate. That is why we call Alnus Hill sacred. While I was in Japan I recognised some images in their history books. Men who wore armour much like ours. I sought more information, and I found that they were called 'Romans'."

Eyes widen and two men gasp.

"I don't know if they were the kin of our ancestors who remained behind, or if it is a coincidence. But I went there, to Rome. I saw the Colosseum, the Pantheon, and the ruins of buildings mentioned in our oldest histories. I believe theirs is the world of our ancestors." He shakes his head. "And we do not measure up." He makes eye contact with the emperor. "When you had Kati killed, I was afraid for my safety. I quashed all my ambitions and hid myself away. It was cowardice. But this…" He feels the ring with the tips of the fingers of his right hand. "Has restored my ambition. I am not Kati. I know that I am not ready to be emperor. But if I am successful, I want to be recognised as crown prince."

The Emperor's face is unmoving. "And what of your brother?"

"He has a whore. I have a dragon."

"If that is what you want, then you had better be successful."

Later, Early Autumn, IC 687

Diabo curls up in the shadows against the wall of the senate building.

"…shitshitshitshitshitshit…"

"I thought that went well."

"…shitshitshitshitshitshit…"

"Okay. Just breathe."
 
Last edited:
I'm a little surprised Paul hasn't contacted groups on the "Modern Earth" side about trading DC scifi tech blueprints on his ring to clone him a body. Or just some way to stay behind. The gods on the pseudo-Roman side are just gonna destroy his little uplift project anyway, best have a way to bail when they do.
 
Early Autumn, IC 687

The senate is place for grandstanding, for decrying members of the opposing factions and cheering on your own. Actual decisions aren't made there; votes take place once the fix is already in, once the decisions have been made by the opinion-formers in rooms much like this one.

Never let the senate make a decision when you don't know what the result will be.
Heh. Because the average effective intelligence of any body drops with every member added to the decision making process. Dozens of different agendas, hundreds of differing opinions that change with every speaker, biases and lacks of knowledge that can damn a goal before you even finish putting it forth...

The Emperor, a legate, a couple of tribunes, a few senior senators from factions loyal either to the Emperor or in favour of aggressive expansion. Not even a token dove. No merchants. No one representing the vassal kingdoms. Diabo's seat is at the opposite end of the table to his father's far grander seat, and the places to his left and right are deliberately left vacant.

If Diabo can convince these people to go along with his treaty, that's the matter settled. It will pass in the senate, the emperor won't veto it and the army won't protest.
And honestly, it looks like a good deal to the idiots warming the benches. A token weregild payment and the possibility of trade against gifts that would rise them up to the rulers of the world...

If.

"A single crate of gold as a token tribute." Senator Giusto glares contemptuously, not bothering to disguise his feelings now that the setting is more private. "What do they really want?"
Ah, one of the smart ones you'll need to convince.

Diabo bares the hard eyes well. Certainly better than he would have done at the start. He's using the ring's power to do it, but I'm not having to prompt him. I'm genuinely pleased with his progress.

"A single chest, filled to the brim with gold. And under the gold-" A slight relaxing of people who've just seen where the other shoe is going to drop from. "-they have requested enchanted… Objects."
In other words, less gold that they need to pay.

The military tribute frowns. "What sort of objects?"

"Anything." Diabo shrugs. "I took care to play down what we can actually do with magic, and they didn't seem to care. They are a people who highly value natural philosophy. They don't want to use the… Talismans we will give them. They want to study them, to try and understand how magic works, and how what they think they know of how the universe works is wrong. Even… Copper coins enchanted to glow would be sufficient."
And that would revolutionise the world by itself.

The furrows on the military tribute's face deepen.

"And what will they do with that understanding?"
Because what's to stop them coming back through the Gate after them? Such is the way a soldier would think, of course.

"That is a problem for their neighbours on their world." Diabo smiles. "By the standards of their world, the nation of Japan is not a first rate power. They are a protectorate that has recently had a dispute with their protector and it is…. Unclear whether or not their treaties are in effect. That does not help us, but it means that Japan has enemies on their own world and cannot afford a prolonged campaign even if they could guarantee that the gate would remain open. While I was there a group of extraordinarii from one of their enemies infiltrated the villa where I was staying, in the centre of their country."
Ah, good to know that worked out well enough for all concerned.

The legate looks intensely interested. "Could we make contact with these enemies?"
...And do what? Try to make a deal from the other end of a Gate the Japanese control?

"Legate Julius, it wouldn't matter if we could. This nation whose soldiers have no experience of war, whose treaty with their protector binds them to only having a small defensive force, destroyed our legions with little effort. The only way for us to enter their territory is through the gate, and they have fortified both sides. Certainly, I could send them a message, but the gate is in the middle of the Japanese capital city. They could hold the wall around their side of it with a token force until the entirety of their country was overran. We would not profit by it, and we would have a stronger neighbour at the end of it with no love for us for the spoiling attack that we are in no position to make."
In other words, don't be stupid.

"The grain." One of the other senators looks thoughtful. "Why do they need grain? Are they having a famine?"

"No, no. As I said, they have poor soil. Their main cereal crop is something called 'rice'. It is not very nutritious. They can import food from other nations, but it is relatively expensive. We can supply their capital easily from our main farming region at what is for them a far lower cost."

Senator Giusto frowns. "What do you mean, 'for them'?"
Honestly, just showing them a construct of Tokyo would shock them flat. The city alone probably has a larger population than their entire empire, at over 14 million... Never mind the country in total. Scratch that. As Vaermina pointed out to me, Rome's empire had over 4 times that before 0CE... Still, the city is probably larger than their capital...

"Remember how much more advanced their industry is. Consider how the barbarians value… Polished stones, or beads or feathers. Such things are valuable to them, but a curiosity at most to us. And then imagine what they would pay for a single sword of good steel such as we issue to the legions by the thousand. Flour is the only thing that we can give them in a meaningful quantity that they actually want, not because they need extra food but because what they will give us in return has little value to them."
Quite the clever deal, if you impart the importance of that payment to the Empire.

The Emperor's face is entirely impassive. "What did you agree to trade?"

"Books relating to industry. They would not agree to trade anything from the last eighty years, but we could not use that anyway. They will trade with us books describing how to take the first steps on the road to building the devices they have for ourselves, they steps they once took when they fought as we do."

"Will that let us make weapons like theirs?"
Indeed, modern technology is a many-layered process. You can't just jump straight to something like silicon chips from a pre-renaissance level of science...

Diabo shakes his head. "Not for a century. My Emperor, this isn't about beating them. It's about beating our neighbours here. Once we have the alchemical formula for the powder that drives their bullets, we will be able to make the very simplest weapons of that type. A 'smoothbore cannon'. A weapon that fires with the power of a trebuchet, but faster, and takes up less space. A weapon that could be mounted on a ship by the dozen. For them, such a weapon is three hundred years out of date, but for us it would turn our navy from an afterthought to the most powerful in the world."
As long as you make them well. After all, when a trebuchet misfires, it merely destroys itself and maybe kills it's crew. A misfiring or exploding cannon has quite a bit larger a splash zone.

"How long?"

"An improved steel process could be implemented inside a year. Properly forging a metal tube when they are providing the instructions should take a month or so. How long it takes to make the powder depends on whether the components can be bought or must be sought afresh, but it should not be more than two months and may be as little as a day. Learning to combine them and how to speed up the process might take a few months more. By the end of the second year I should have a group of working cannons to show you. Cannons that can demolish a city wall. Or destroy a legion."
And there's also the matter of the Gods noticing what you're up to and whether they take exception to someone shaking their games table like that. :p

Legate Julius looks thoughtful. "How would it destroy a legion? A trebuchet might break a formation if it struck true, but they would reform a moment later."

"A cannon can fire a single large bullet to destroy walls or make a hole in a formation, but it can also be used to fire 'grape shot'. That is a bundle of smaller bullets. The range is far less, but they-" He moves his hands forward, spreading out as they move. "-will destroy any man who stands before them. Would you not want to do to others what the Japanese did to us?"
'Destroy' is right. Get a good angle, and whatever's coming at you turns into chunky salsa.

There are several meaningful glances from one man to the next. Yes, that's it. You need a war to save yourselves, a successful war. The Japanese are there, but you can't beat them. So…

"Such a weapon would not let us hold territory."
Just the fear of it would break your foes, you fool...

"Take a city and ransom it back. Or just destroy it from a distance and demand payment from its neighbours. They would no more understand what they were being struck by than our legionaries did."

The Emperor raises his right hand slightly, and everybody waits.
Ah, that's how you know they fear and/or respect him appropriately. One slight motion and everyone shuts the fuck up...

"How many slaves do they actually expect to have returned?"

"All of them. They have machines which can… Tell how much blood two people share. Our blood is different enough from theirs that it is easy for them to tell their people from ours. That condition is absolute. If they find out that we have played them false, they will go to wherever the slaves are and kill everyone they find there to free them."
And if they can't, then Diabo, under OL's leadership, could and probably would.

Because he and I will tell them where that is. And we have just told the Emperor what to do to rid himself of a few troublesome senators.

The Emperor smiles.
Yes, he can see exactly what you just noted, OL... And so the deal is sweetened.

"If this is the treaty, and what you say about their industry is true, then you have done the Empire a great service, my son. What reward do you want in return?"

Diabo looks away for a moment.
Ah. Now to see if his desires can overcome his fear.

"Long ago, our ancestors came through a gate. That is why we call Alnus Hill sacred. While I was in Japan I recognised some images in their history books. Men who wore armour much like ours. I sought more information, and I found that they were called 'Romans'."

Eyes widen and two men gasp.
They're not doing too badly compared to Earth, though. Only a few centuries behind in terms of science.

"I don't know if they were the kin of our ancestors who remained behind, or if it is a coincidence. But I went there, to Rome. I saw the Colosseum, the Pantheon, and the ruins of buildings mentioned in our oldest histories. I believe theirs is the world of our ancestors." He shakes his head. "And we do not measure up." He makes eye contact with the emperor. "When you had Kati killed, I was afraid for my safety. I quashed all my ambitions and hid myself away. It was cowardice. But this…" He feels the ring with the tips of the fingers of his right hand. "Has restored my ambition. I am not Kati. I know that I am not ready to be emperor. But if I am successful, I want to be recognised as crown prince."
Ah, the joy of having an overambitious and under-intelligent son... Sooner or later, the idiot thinks about taking his old man's seat. Good thing Diabo is neither of those things.

The Emperor's face is unmoving. "And what of your brother?"

"He has a whore. I have a dragon."
Real 'We have a hulk' energy there. :D

"If that is what you want, then you had better be successful."

Later, Early Autumn, IC 687

Diabo curls up in the shadows against the wall of the senate building.
Ah, good, he at least waited until he was alone to have a panic attack.

"…shitshitshitshitshitshit…"

"I thought that went well."
To be fair, anything that gets you closer to getting the fuck out of this world is 'going well'. :p

"…shitshitshitshitshitshit…"

"Okay. Just breathe."
You might need to do that for him, OL. Or at least give him a paper bag before he hyperventilates himself unconscious.

An amusing finish to his little show of courage. Let's hope he can keep up the facade long enough to get what he wants. Cause all that fear is not conducive to using an Orange Ring. On the up side, it seems the real powers-that-be of the Empire have bought into the deal. And why not? It looks like a great thing... Until the Gods notice and decide to stop the shenanigans.

The senate is place for grandstanding...
The senate is a place for grandstanding...
... they steps they once took when they fought as we do."
... the steps they once took when they fought as we do."
 
Last edited:
Honestly, just showing them a construct of Tokyo would shock them flat. The city alone probably has a larger population than their entire empire, at over 14 million... Never mind the country in total.
The Roman Empire, which The Empire is based on had a population of 45-120 million.
 
Been rereading the Anti-Life Arc, then the Silver City's non action again, which made me remember the spear and thus Jesus.

I forget, but is Mr Zoat going with the interpretation that Mary wasn't actually a virgin? Since it was all but stated that Gabriel raped her, so by extension Jesus isn't actually the Son of God or even a prophet or Messiah, just Gabriel's by blow and a regular nephilim.

It's Hellblazer, so stuff's gotta be as edgy as possible lol.

Given the attention to detail with even the most obscure characters, and distaste for Christianity, the thought of Paul revealing that little tidbit to some zealots that are proving obstructive nuisances sound like the kind of thing he'd do when tearing them down or when in an academic discussion with someone about Christianity's history and origins.

Edit:

A quick wiki search apparently contradicts Hellblazer canon with characters like this guy https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Azzarene_(New_Earth)

But since Constantine's a much more prominent character, I'm gonna wager that WTR goes with Hellblazer's take.
 
Last edited:
I wonder if god Paul has taken a tiny bit of space in his followers brains.

Instant mind control switch/memory edit and additional processing power while they sleep/pray aside i doubt he's human at this point.

Something like this sounds like it's subtle enough for his needs.

I imagine he's already downloaded a tech database/the internet and hidden it somewhere in a ring printed computer somewhere.
 
Why is it that you keep making sidestories I want to see more of rather than the main plot?
I'm of the opinion Mr. Zoat usually has his arc planned out before he begins it, but that doesn't mean he's got every arc planned out for going forward. So taking sidestory diversions is, aside from being semi-interesting 'what-ifs' are good time distractions while he thinks up what the next segment will have in it. And most of us are pretty okay with the side stories. Personally, so long as it's not Renegade, I'm usually marginally interested. Gate is not something I'd be willing to engage in a more canonical / official capacity (Even watching one episode of it would be too much of an ask, really) but reading a short little 1k chapter about a weird hypothetical Paul future / multiversal is doable. It's not enough to get invested, but some of them are interesting or even have a few funny lines / situations.
 
I rather like the Warhammer snippets myself.
Same, though my favorite's the 40k ones
I'm of the opinion Mr. Zoat usually has his arc planned out before he begins it, but that doesn't mean he's got every arc planned out for going forward. So taking sidestory diversions is, aside from being semi-interesting 'what-ifs' are good time distractions while he thinks up what the next segment will have in it. And most of us are pretty okay with the side stories. Personally, so long as it's not Renegade, I'm usually marginally interested. Gate is not something I'd be willing to engage in a more canonical / official capacity (Even watching one episode of it would be too much of an ask, really) but reading a short little 1k chapter about a weird hypothetical Paul future / multiversal is doable. It's not enough to get invested, but some of them are interesting or even have a few funny lines / situations.
Agreed, canon Gate's not my cup of tea, but the side stories/ what ifs are really cool
 
Why is it that you keep making sidestories I want to see more of rather than the main plot?
Looking at the number of likes, it appears that you are in the minority. Though I do appreciate the support.
It's rare, but it does happen. Still waiting on that Vault Dwelling for Sanity and Profit update!
The senate is a place for grandstanding
... the steps they once took when they fought as we do."
'bears'?
I know this is right, but I really wish the correct spelling was 'talismen'.
Thank you, corrected.
 
Been rereading the Anti-Life Arc, then the Silver City's non action again, which made me remember the spear and thus Jesus.

I forget, but is Mr Zoat going with the interpretation that Mary wasn't actually a virgin? Since it was all but stated that Gabriel raped her, so by extension Jesus isn't actually the Son of God or even a prophet or Messiah, just Gabriel's by blow and a regular nephilim.

It's Hellblazer, so stuff's gotta be as edgy as possible lol.

Given the attention to detail with even the most obscure characters, and distaste for Christianity, the thought of Paul revealing that little tidbit to some zealots that are proving obstructive nuisances sound like the kind of thing he'd do when tearing them down or when in an academic discussion with someone about Christianity's history and origins.

Edit:

A quick wiki search apparently contradicts Hellblazer canon with characters like this guy https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Azzarene_(New_Earth)

But since Constantine's a much more prominent character, I'm gonna wager that WTR goes with Hellblazer's take.
15th December
20:06 GMT -5


"Goose? I thought they were too big. Whatever they're from, I don't see why he's keeping them. They're kind of creepy."

"He chainsawed them off the back of the Archangel Gabriel."

She snorts. "Look, if you don't want to tell me, that's fine."

"I was not joking or being in any way metaphorical. I don't know exactly what happened, but he ended up with Gabriel's heart in a box

Found it! It's been bugging me for a bit, but a good old reread did the trick, well, good on Paul for not revealing to Zatanna who exactly Gabriel raped lol. I wonder if she connected the dots but didn't want to believe it.

Though I am confused why the spear that stabbed Jesus is something notable. It's not the Spear of Destiny, just a spear that stabbed a nephilim, the holy grail's backstory predated Jesus by millenia in DC, he was just the most famous drinker from that in recent history which explains why it's so powerful regardless . But I do wonder who started on that whole Son of God thing in-universe, certainly wasn't true.

I suppose part of Paul's ambivalence to it, aside from the Presence's rather lacking or incompatible actions is that Christianity is based on a scam, Jesus' disciples hyping him up, I suppose a nephilim's power is indistinguishable from real miracles from a layman's perspective and Mary likely didn't tell Jesus the truth of his conception.

It's debatable if he even counts as an actual prophet like Islam claims, then again I suppose Gabriel made sure Mary bore a child for a reason so there was a plan there.

Edit:

The Lucifer comics apparently says he's the real deal, so who knows.

On one hand, Paul's not an omniscient narrator, on the other Mr Zoat clearly uses Hellblazer's continuity for that bit of lore, so it's pretty much a confirmation.

I wonder if someone's asked Zauriel about the Jesus thing.
 
Last edited:
Found it! It's been bugging me for a bit, but a good old reread did the trick, well, good on Paul for not revealing to Zatanna who exactly Gabriel raped lol.
He tells her later on after she directly asks him about it. This was when she was still being affected by the Star Sapphire and after angels killed Paul.
"Who did he rape?"

"According to a source I haven't been able to confirm, Mary."

She flinches, then shakes her head again. "I shouldn't be surprised."

"Though I'll say again, Gabriel was the one who did that and the one who did most of the Old Testament murdering. We don't know what sort of orders he was getting, we don't know what he was thinking and the reason Chantinelle was able to seduce him was that he was having doubts about the righteousness of his cause. If the other angels I've spoken to are anything to go by he was doing that despite his brain literally being designed to prevent him doing so. The highest authority any angel I've spoken to has claimed that they're in regular contact with is their own four kings."
 
He tells her later on after she directly asks him about it. This was when she was still being affected by the Star Sapphire and after angels killed Paul.
Thanks!

Huh, not confirmed yet? I suppose he doesn't have any reason to ask Zauriel or the like on what happened, but given the rest happened it's more likely that there was no need to.

X confirms Y and all that.

Edit:

Reread the arc, and yep, Karrien confirmed that Jesus was a nephilim, hooray for confirmation lol.

That being said, why were the heavenly host even "bound" by his nonsense? He was just a nephilim after all. Nothing special in the grand scheme of things.

Or, more pressingly, why did the Presence even bother with the charade? It was just a scam.

Gonna have to look to see if that bit was broadcasted or something, something tells me Christianity will go the way of the dodo in a few years haha.

I suppose OL respects Father Mattias enough not to reveal that everything he believed in is a sham. The emotional distress that'd cause would be a bit too much I imagine, even if it means less ignorance.

On the other other hand, Paul's entirely willing to rip the bandaid off and just shake things up in society in a big, chaotic way if he perceives the benefits as outweighing the downsides in the transition, so getting people to wise up about how stupid following the Abrahamic faiths are with this big an opening was a missed opportunity…or was it?

I'm pretty sure OL's happy to let the world think the angels just attacked at random for no reason rather than revealing the civil war that happened. Better to take advantage of things. Heaven killing people and Paul and the League fighting them and convincing them to ressurect the people that died after defeating Heaven's forces is the technical truth after all.

He's not purposely eroding the belief in it, not lying but he's letting them gather the rope to hang themselves and he can't be blamed for it. Pretty smart.

Edit:

Mr Zoat out of curiosity, since Paul's Best Case Scenario long term regarding the Silver City down the line is it being destroyed and Hell reformed and on the rise, what is Paul planning with the souls already there? Redistribution to other pantheon's afterlives? Reincarnation? Send them down to the (hopefully) reformed Hell? Creating an artificial afterlife?

Or is it more destroy the system and reformat it, so technically the Silver City still exists but under new and better management? Doesn't explain what happens to the souls though. From what I assume It's basically the Matrix but worse so even that's a crappy consolation prize, trapped in a lotus eater machine. I wonder what Paul hopes to replace it with.
 
Last edited:
Mr Zoat out of curiosity, since Paul's Best Case Scenario long term regarding the Silver City down the line is it being destroyed and Hell reformed and on the rise, what is Paul planning with the souls already there? Redistribution to other pantheon's afterlives? Reincarnation? Send them down to the (hopefully) reformed Hell? Creating an artificial afterlife?
The SI is open to everyone improving. He has no objection to people seeking to unify their souls with the Source after their deaths if that's something that they want to do. I mean, Books of Magic was clear that the eventual heat death of the universe would take all afterlives with it, so that's pretty much what everyone is going to have to do eventually anyway.
 
The SI is open to everyone improving. He has no objection to people seeking to unify their souls with the Source after their deaths if that's something that they want to do. I mean, Books of Magic was clear that the eventual heat death of the universe would take all afterlives with it, so that's pretty much what everyone is going to have to do eventually anyway.
Good to know. I would've imagined he was fully set on burning down Heaven if given the choice and the capacity of handing the consequences of such since demons are more reasonable to work with, ironically.

Plus, Paul tends to be condescendingly compassionate about people he thinks are being deliberately ignorant or thinks are being foolish. Kinda assumed it's how he perceived anyone who believes in the Abrahamic faiths.

It's impossible for Paul to be unbiased after all, his power is dependent on it.

Btw, did Paul or the League actually clear up what happened when the League stormed Heaven with demonic backup or did they (Paul) let the public come up with their own conclusions? Prime opportunity there after all, why help prevent an opponent from making a blunder.

Then again, I doubt the Silver City gives a shit if a nephilim's scam is less believed in by people.

That little bit of info would do a lot to spell the death of Christianity, Jesus being a rape baby and not even a proper prophet would cause shockwaves lol. But I suppose, personal distaste for them aside, Paul's pragmatic enough to wait for that reveal until he's got a safety net to minimize the negative impact of the fall out.
 
Last edited:
Btw, did Paul or the League actually clear up what happened when the League stormed Heaven with demonic backup or did they (Paul) let the public come up with their own conclusions? Prime opportunity there after all, why help prevent an opponent from making a blunder.

Then again, I doubt the Silver City gives a shit if a nephilim's scam is less believed in by people
The Justice League made an announcement that angels were deceived into attacking Paul and most people accepted that. Some people probably still hate Paul, but he's been dealing with hate mail since at least his interview about angels, so he doesn't really care about that.
 
The Justice League made an announcement that angels were deceived into attacking Paul and most people accepted that. Some people probably still hate Paul, but he's been dealing with hate mail since at least his interview about angels, so he doesn't really care about that.
Ah, gotcha. I had a feeling that happened, if nothing else, the League won't want people in widespread paranoia about a repeat suddenly happening for some inexplicable reason

On the bright side, I doubt Zatanna will pray or enter a church again anytime soon , or at all XD, or anyone from the League in general haha. Hard to have faith in something that's systematically shown itself to either be a scam, a charade built on nothing but a lie and propaganda or just plain counterproductive and an obstacle to your own morals.

Edit: Besides, I doubt people will be lining up for something right out of "the Matrix" as an afterlife. The Silver City's shit, I doubt the souls there are actually at paradise, or am I mixing it up with Supernatural's version of Heaven?

I still remember Zauriel's intro and Paul actually tearing up at Zauriel's singing, you'd think the sound would be more ear grating or eldritch given the general stance of the fic on that stuff.

Man, I really gotta reread the previous arcs lol.
 
Last edited:
The SI doesn't have a problem with the Silver City when they're not trying to kill him.

The angels are well intentioned, but their instinctive obedience and relative problem with free will makes it possible to manipulate them. Demons are self-interest at best and Kantian evil-doers at worst. Mammon needed help to curb the worst aspects and it's still pretty darn bad. The angels needed a slap upside the head and they're back to doing good.

If you can use theurgy, you're a prophet in any way that matters. Jesus could.
 
The SI doesn't have a problem with the Silver City when they're not trying to kill him.

The angels are well intentioned, but their instinctive obedience and relative problem with free will makes it possible to manipulate them. Demons are self-interest at best and Kantian evil-doers at worst. Mammon needed help to curb the worst aspects and it's still pretty darn bad. The angels needed a slap upside the head and they're back to doing good.

If you can use theurgy, you're a prophet in any way that matters. Jesus could.

Good to know. Thanks for clarifying. Much appreciated. Cuz ngl, from what I've seen it kinda came across to me like Paul liked working with demons more than having to interact with any angel haha. Well, maybe not liked, but tolerated more.

Demons can be expected to be demons, but angels are continuous disappointments and let downs is how it felt like Paul saw things.

I was about to say something about Paul's ideal scenario is Heaven destroyed and Hell weakened enough to have reforms imposed, but it turned out that it was a reader that posted that. In fairness, it was pretty late at night when I read it, so my brain was pretty tired XD.

He doesn't like Angels, or The Silver City. He conciders it a dangerous hostile power with good publicity. That it is both evil, and given dangerous undue trust and an assumption of decency and good faith it hasn't earned, or has even anti-earned. And that ultimately everyone would be better off if hell invaded it and burned it too the ground.

Keeping in mind that he doesn't like or trust hell.

He's not acting on this because he would burn bridges with people he actually likes, respects, and wants to be around in the future. Just remember that from Paul's perspective, the best outcome is one where Heaven is destroyed, and Hell crippled enough that Earth could go in their, take over, and impose reforms.

My apologies for causing a ruckus.
 
Last edited:
Ah, that's how you know they fear and/or respect him appropriately. One slight motion and everyone shuts the fuck up...

I'm reminded of the opening of the first episode of Transformers Animated. All the Decepticons - bar one - are bickering on the bridge of their ship, and things are literally half a second from everybody trying to tear everyone else apart...

Then the bridge door swishes open.
Megatron steps through.
And EVERYTHING does deathly still and silent.
 
Do Or Die Time (part 14)
17th February 2013
20:38 GMT


Decay.

Well, yes, but also no.

Washington, District of Columbia, is an unusually flat city. The original Alliance of the Just building was just under the forty metre legal limit for building height, and the buildings around it were that tall or shorter. Now it's grown, the new techno-infernal structure something that would be right at home on Apokolips. All they would need to do to complete the picture would be to punch down to the planet's mantle for that fire pit glow.

Decay.

In front of us, Batman uses some sort of mechanical tendril construct to pull the Justifier garrison into a pile before sending borer tendrils into their helmets and yanking them off. Carol is firing a construct weapon that I don't immediately recognise at the weapon emplacements…

Decay.

And built into the upper part of the structure is an unusually large Anti-Life broadcaster.

Alan looks around, frowning. "Is that it? I thought we'd be fighting Finality Man by now."

"He doesn't know why we're here."

He glances my way. "What do you mean by that? What else would we be here for?"

"Malvolio's main advantage over Guy is that he can split his attention in more directions without weakening his constructs. Mannheim knows about the rest of us, and Malvolio's not that novel. We could have attacked Washington a month ago like this."

He nods. "He doesn't know why we're doing it now."

"Rescue government officials? No point. They don't have any vital skills and they're all going to be thoroughly Anti-Lifed by now anyway. Fighting his people? He has boom tubes. He can probably follow them wherever we send them, and he knows that we try to avoid killing them. He said to Robin that he's more interested in learning about the Anti-Life than simple conquest, so…"

"So he doesn't know why we're here, and he wants to." He nods. "He doesn't know we can push him out."

"The only people who know are us and the Maltusians."

"So when we start-."

"Then he starts."

Looking across the city I can still see plenty of the black cages surrounding weakening bundles of colour that define the Justifiers. But while they are approaching our general vicinity, they're not moving to attack.

Nothing else we can really do to prepare.

"Orange Lantern to all, I'm about to call in Orion. Expect an immediate offensive from Mannheim."

"Get on with it."

Decay.

I can almost feel it as the transmitter-.

I shake my head. "Orange Lantern to Vykin. We're in place. Send him through."

"Understood. How goes the day?"

"Alright so far, but I think things will get difficult once the boom tube opens."

"And Finality Man?"

I try a global scan. Not entirely reliable with things being what they are, but…

"No sign of him. That will change."

"I understand. Opening-"

BOOM!

"-a tube now."

"FINALLY!"

The tube opened in the road where the front entrance used to be, and Orion wastes no time at all stomping through. He… Oh, he doesn't look good. That's blood dripping from his mouth and from the corner of his eyes. I don't know if that's the ring or just what happens when a New God stays that angry for that long. No astro-harness, and the yellow symbol on his helmet's forehead has been replaced by a red sigil.

"I can feel you, Father! Face me!"

The Forever People scurry through after him, and immediately seek cover. Looks like their equipment has been upgraded. No Forevercar, which is probably just as well.

He rises into the air, glaring at everything, as if daring Mannheim to come out from the rock or tree that he's sheltering behind. "FACE ME!"

Batman flies over to him. "Orion. We need you to focus on the Anti-Life transmitter. We can expunge your father's touch from the Earth permanently. Can you-?"

"I will remove my father's touch when I have torn his avatar apart! Where is he?"

Decay.

"Everywhere, my son."

Stop.

In my chest, my heart stops beating.

Alan gasps and thumps his chest before creating a defibrillator construct. Alan, defibrillators stop fibrillations, not stopped hearts, so-. Fine. I try starting mine up again with ring power, and… I can sort of make it move, but it won't beat on its own.

"Orange Lantern to allies, if you're got a power ring, you don't need a beating heart. It feels weird but you'll be fine. New Gods?"

"We feel nothing."

And sure enough Vykin and company are still moving. Orion-.

"I have had a lifetime of listening to the lies of the real Darkseid! I have no desire to listen to yours as well!"

Okay, good, he's fine, but how did Mannheim do that? Just… Stop our hearts? And-. Sportsmaster, he doesn't have a-.

I see Carol fly back towards the holding centre and fire a crystallisation beam at him as he lies on the floor frantically beating his chest.

Okay, how. He's not-.

Oh no.

I take out a rune stone and hold it out towards-.

Oh yes. There was an elf gate here. Is an elf gate here. An open portal to the arcane realms where Mannheim… How much control does that give him? Does that.. mean-.

"Okay, plan revision, we need to shut down his elf gate-."

BOOM!

And there's Finality Man.
 
Last edited:
17th February 2013
20:38 GMT


Decay.

Well, yes, but also no.
After all, there's no point pulling down everything unless you know you won't need the buildings. And while Mannheim probably doesn't need the machines of bureaucracy, the city is still useful as defensive structures. And as a symbol of his domination.

Washington, District of Columbia, is an usually flat city. The original Alliance of the Just building was just under the forty metre legal limit for building height, and the buildings around it were that tall or shorter. Now it's grown, the new techno-infernal structure something that would be right at home on Apokolips. All they would need to do to complete the picture would be to punch down to the planet's mantel for that fire pit glow.

Decay.
So, brutalist architecture unrestrained by the limits of conventional materials, huh? About what I'd picture, anyway.

In front of us, Batman uses some sort of mechanical tendril construct to pull the Justifier garrison into a pile before sending borer tendrils into their helmets and yanking them off. Carol is firing a construct weapon that I don't immediately recognise at the weapon emplacements…

Decay.
I half imagine the tendrils look like Ivy's climbing-vine creations.

And built into the upper part of the structure is an unusually large Anti-Life broadcaster.

Alan looks around, frowning. "Is that it? I thought we'd be fighting Finality Man by now."
Let's not go courting trouble yet, Alan?

"He doesn't know why we're here."

He glances my way. "What do you mean by that? What else would we be here for?"
Really? You expect Mannheim would know what the Spectrum does when combined? Unless Darkseid had interrogated a Maltusian at some point, that secret is still very much in the bag.

"Malvolio's main advantage over Guy is that he can split his attention in more directions without weakening his constructs. Mannheim knows about the rest of us, and Malvolio's not that novel. We could have attacked Washington a month ago like this."

He nods. "He doesn't know why we're doing it now."
And the victory will be all the sweeter when he crushes them as they think they're about to triumph.

"Rescue government officials? No point. They don't have any vital skills and they're all going to be thoroughly Anti-Lifed by now anyway. Fighting his people? He has boom tubes. He can probably follow them wherever we send them, and he knows that we try to avoid killing them. He said to Robin that he's more interested in learning about the Anti-Life than simple conquest, so…"

"So he doesn't know why we're here, and he wants to." He nods. "He doesn't know we can push him out."
At which point he will become increasingly desperate. So be on your guard.

"The only people who know are us and the Maltusians."

"So when we start-."
Everything in the city will aggro on the Lanterns.

"Then he starts."

Looking across the city I can still see plenty of the black cages surrounding weakening bundles of colour that define the Justifiers. But while they are approaching our general vicinity, they're not moving to attack.
And there they are. Well, it's a solid reminder of the cost of failure.

Nothing else we can really do to prepare.

"Orange Lantern to all, I'm about to call in Orion. Expect an immediate offensive from Mannheim."
Not because of the Red Light, at least. After all, the War Dog of New Genesis showing up on Earth is a pretty big threat to Mannheim.

"Get on with it."

Decay.
Sooner they shut the Anti-life up, the better.

I can almost feel is as the transmitter-.

I shake my head. "Orange Lantern to Vykin. We're in place. Send him through."
Grab your snack of choice, folks, things are about to go hot.

"Understood. How goes the day?"

"Alright so far, but I think things will get difficult once the boom tube opens."
Hopefully they can at least keep Orion on task, given his current mad-on.

"And Finality Man?"

I try a global scan. Not entirely reliable with things being what they are, but…
And I suspect it would only be detectable if it wants to be...

"No sign of him. That will change."

"I understand. Opening-"
...And here... We... Go!

BOOM!

"-a tube now."
And somewhere, Mannheim snaps his head around in surprise. ...Then tries to play it off with calm dismissal. :p

"FINALLY!"

The tube opened in the road where the front entrance used to be, and Orion wastes no time at all stomping through. He… Oh, he doesn't look good. That's blood dripping from his mouth and from the corner of his eyes. I don't know if that's the ring or just what happens when a New God stays that angry for that long. No astro-harness, and the yellow symbol on his helmet's forehead has been replaced by a red sigil.
...Yeah, you're going to want to pull that Ring off him as soon as things are done.

"I can feel you, Father! Face me!"

The Forever People scurry through after him, and immediately seek cover. Looks like their equipment has been upgraded. No Forevercar, which is probably just as well.
Yeah, take cover, kiddies. Things are about to get loud.

He rises into the air, glaring at everything, as if daring Mannheim to come out from the rock or tree that he's sheltering behind. "FACE ME!"

Batman flies over to him. "Orion. We need you to focus on the Anti-Life transmitter. We can expunge your father's touch from the Earth permanently. Can you-?"
Careful, bats. He has no knowledge of your reputation, and no reason to feel any need to not smash you aside...

"I will remove my father's touch when I have torn his avatar apart! Where is he?"

Decay.
Oh, boy. Orion's going to foul this up, isn't he?

"Everywhere, my son."

Stop.

In my chest, my heart stops beating.
...Whoops. That's a new trick. And a nasty one.

Alan gasps and thumps his chest before creating a defibrillator construct. Alan, defibrillators stop fibrillations, not stopped hearts, so-. Fine. I try starting mine up again with ring power, and… I can sort of make it move, but it won't beat on its own.

"Orange Lantern to allies, if you're got a power ring, you don't need a beating heart. It feels weird but you'll be fine. New Gods?"
The joy of pop culture treating shock paddles as cure-all buttons for heart issues. ...Also as instant-kill weapons in videogames.

"We feel nothing."

And sure enough Vykin and company are still moving. Orion-.
They at least have the excuse of New God resistance to Godspeech shenanigans.

"I have had a lifetime of listening to the lies of the real Darkseid! I have no desire to listen to yours as well!"

Okay, good, he's fine, but how did Mannheim do that? Just… Stop our hearts? And-. Sportsmaster, he doesn't have a-.
Whoops, there goes Batman's backup plan. Upside, no need to worry about Sportsy later.

I see Carol fly back towards the holding centre and fire a crystallisation beam at him as he lies on the floor frantically beating his chest.

Okay, how. He's not-.
...Huh. I mean, the brain can keep functioning for a little bit after the heart stops, but...

On no.

I take out a rune stone and hold it out towards-.
...Ah. Mannheim's using that Aztec pantheon mojo he swiped to dick around with people's hearts, huh?

Oh yes. There was an elf gate here. Is an elf gate here. An open portal to the arcane realms where Mannheim… How much control does that give him? Does that.. mean-.

"Okay, plan revision, we need to shut down his elf gate-."
Not too difficult, once you find it. A few crumbler railgun rounds should clean it up.

BOOM!

And there's Finality Man.
...And I see Mannheim knows you know how to kill elf gates.

So, the battle is joined in earnest. Both sides are deploying their strongest weapons, Team Lantern has their counter in place and Mannheim is looking to squash them like bugs. The endgame has begun, the boss fight music is playing and things are going to get wild. So grab your preferred snacks, pull up a comfy chair, and let's see how the day gets saved! x3
 
Paul knew he ate an entire pantheon...

Did he seriously not prepare even the slightest for god tier mannheim?
 
Washington, District of Columbia, is an usually flat city
'unusually'?
Decay.

I can almost feel is as the transmitter-.

I shake my head. "Orange Lantern to Vykin. We're in place. Send him through."
'it as the'
"Okay, plan revision, we need to shut down his elf gate-."
This works, but is it supposed to be 'this elf gate'?

Seems like things are about to get exciting. Orion is being a bit of a shit, though.
 
This part is colored orange, but the previous conversation involving the New Gods isn't. Was the previous conversation through a communicator, but this one through Paul's ring?
'unusually'?
'it as the'
Thank you, corrected.
This works, but is it supposed to be 'this elf gate'?
I don't think so.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top