With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Idkusername · Feb 8, 2024

Mr Zoat said:
It goes back to when primitive tribes were led by their alpha.

0_o

I'd really like a citation for this.

Lord Ernest · Feb 8, 2024

My favorite segment in a really long while for the story. That was equal parts hilarious and riveting. I really hope the rest of the episode is about this, the Justice League members coming to terms with their de facto rule of the world and having to properly take responsibility for it. I mean, they're already trying to fix the world after the recent catastrophe but since most of them are probably still in the mindset of "superheroes" they're most likely not taking proper advantage of the situation to resolve more than just "relief aid".

Oh, and I'm also happy that Batman is still wearing his Yellow Ring.

Ngamer11 said:
I'm so amused at the fact that Paul needs to spell this out to Green Arrow. I'm sure at least a few members of the League realized what happened and are simply not drawing attention to it.

Batman, Dr. Mist, maybe Diana, just to name a few that I think recognized what happened or was happening but definitely didn't want people to notice. Probably because they're thinking the situation is calling for them to act like Dictators (the roman equivalent, not the modern one). Which I think is true, the Superheroes are the ones better prepared to fix this broken planet right now.

Mr Zoat said:
Mr. Atom raises his right hand and stares at his own palm. "Have I..? Taken over the world by accident? Was it always this simple?"

Funniest part of the whole thing. Never thought I would feel kind of sad and so amused by Mr. Atom at the same time in this way.

Cool10007 · Feb 8, 2024

Absolutely fantastic, this payoff is hilarious - very well done, Mr Zoat.

ptb_ptb · Feb 8, 2024

Mr Zoat said:
It goes back to when primitive tribes were led by their alpha

Great. 'Alphas'. Using a discredited study on wolf behaviour to describe purported behaviour of prehistoric humanity. We have no idea how tribes were led - that's what prehistory means. All we know is how they were grouped - small bands of one or two dozen people nearby 10 to 20 other bands. We can presume those 10 to 20 bands usually got on well, so you could arguably call them 'tribes' but we don't know how those bands were led or whether one of those bands led the others.

Mr Zoat said:
"Yes. Orange Lantern, the current weakness of world governments is very convenient for our work. Stop drawing public attention to it."

Batman apparently does know they have taken over the world, and approves. To be fair, governments in comic books are generally incompetent, evil, or incompetent AND evil.

Vaermina · Feb 8, 2024

ptb_ptb said:
Great. 'Alphas'. Using a discredited study on wolf behaviour to describe purported behaviour of prehistoric humanity. We have no idea how tribes were led - that's what prehistory means. All we know is how they were grouped - small bands of one or two dozen people nearby 10 to 20 other bands. We can presume those 10 to 20 bands usually got on well, so you could arguably call them 'tribes' but we don't know how those bands were led or whether one of those bands led the others.

Yup, sadly nobody in universe will call him on that particular bit of stupidity.

Azure Mirage · Feb 8, 2024

Idkusername said:
0_o

I'd really like a citation for this.

In any social situation, who generally gets the most attention, and thus gets paid attention to? The strongest, or smartest, combine BOTH and you get a potent competent leader figure. Charisma is just making everything work better and lubricates social situations because people like charismatic folk.

Early human groups likely did the same exact thing we do today. Just go out and experience life and social situations, someone always is posturing or making it seem like they want attention or want to be the one making decisions.

Public Education forced me to recognize the common threads of life. The term Alpha may not be accurate, but it *fits*.

Wivk · Feb 8, 2024

Aw, back to using fear. Poor guy.

Chojin Patriarch · Feb 8, 2024

Mr Zoat said:
29th March 2013
17:32 GMT -5

Mr. Atom looks at me. He's not blinking because he doesn't have the facility for blinking, but I think he'd be staring anyway.

"I was not informed that the Justice League was taking control of the world. That sounds like something I should have been informed about."

Ah, I bet that little comment really blew up online, then. And Atom really should consider adding shutters or something to his optics, just for the visual appeal of being able to 'close' his eyes. Humanise him a little more in the public's view.

"To the best of my knowledge, the League has no active plan to take over the world."

A holographic screen next to him comes to live.

But the lack of evidence of something does not mean the thing does not exist. Merely that no-one's gone looking for it yet.

"…shocking claims a short time ago that governments have failed." The news presenter raises his eyebrows slightly. "And should be replaced, by the Justice League."

"That was fast."

And probably misquoting it or misunderstanding for the sake of attention.

He leans over me slightly. "I was not informed that the Justice League was taking control of the world."

"I am not a member of the Justice League. And… Were you also not aware of the contents of the League's Charter? And how far beyond it the League is currently operating?"

Good point. I mean, it probably doesn't outright say 'we will not take over the world' but I suspect there's no clause saying 'if we end up ruling the world, we promise to give it back.'

He settles slightly on his feet. "Expand."

"In my experience, League members don't usually realise that they're pushing a boundary. They just do things that seem like a good idea at the time, without really thinking it through and considering the wider consequences or guiding philosophy. It's like the first time you tried to take over the world."

To be fair, that sums up the attitude of a lot of superhero comics, especially in the early days. Writers may be clever, but not necessarily wise.

"That did not work."

"Because you didn't think it through. Your current plan is much better informed. But I sent you my analysis of Metropolis policing pre and post-Superman."

Though really, I bet his plan was largely limited to 'find current leader, threaten until they surrender power to me'.

"Yes. They redeployed funding based on the assumption that he would continue to fulfil his current function."

"He didn't mean for that to happen. He…" I frown. "I haven't asked, but I'm not entirely sure that he's actually aware that it's happened. And if he is, I'd be astonished if he's thought about the significance of it."

Reminds me of 'Red Son', where things like seatbelts became less used, then eventually discarded, because 'Superman would always save them, right?'

Mr. Atom takes a moment. He… Might not be as bad about this as the rest of them. At least, not now I've directly drawn his attention to it.

"They replace public services. That undermines the authority of those who provide public services. And that of their employers. And the social structure that gives them their authority."

True, Atom does tend to course-correct when an issue has been pointed out.

"And that's why being a supervillain is a mug's game if you want to rule the world. No one wants to be ruled by a supervillain. Lots of people want to be ruled by a superhero."

"Calculating."

To be fair, the supervillainous method usually involves violent overthrow and obnoxiously tyrannical behaviour. The asshole kind of tyrant, mind, not the historical meaning.

"It goes back to when primitive tribes were led by their alpha. We've covered it all over with institutions and traditions, but ultimately, people respond to leadership."

"Recognised, Green Arrow, zero eight, Blue Lantern, two four."

And some people just exude leadership qualities. Consider Captain America, especially in the MCU, who earns his command over the Avengers (including a genius billionaire playboy philanthropist, an alien Norse god, a literal raging monster and various secret agents) by sheer strength of character and morals. He's just that nice a guy...

Mr. Queen looks around, his eyes locking onto me almost immediately. He strides in my direction, right forefinger raised.

"We're not taking over the world, Paul."

And naturally Ollie is the first to insist that this is not cool.

"Not intentionally, no."

Alan shakes his head. "Paul, we both saw what happens when superheroes take over the world. Did that look like something we should be working towards?"

And yes, the JSI world does provide a good example of how not to do it.

"Alan, you didn't like it because you didn't like the man you became."

"That was part of it. I… I thought you didn't like it either."

Because they were doing it wrong. At least as OL saw it.

"With me it was more because they didn't systematise things logically, and so threw away their morals without the corresponding gain in efficiency they could have gotten. And… Because I didn't like the man you became either. But-." I close my eyes for a moment and shake my head. "Look. Not.. arguing in favour of it, but name one government that did anything helpful during this entire crisis. One army. My future father-in-law did more good than the entire US military, and he's a serial killer."

Man's got a good point...

"Okay. Okay." Mr. Queen raises his right hand to his forehead. "So what you're saying is, we might end up being in control of things without even meaning to be."

"No, I'm saying that you are in control of things without even meaning to." I shrug. "In the event of a major environmental disaster or a raid from space, who would deal with it?"

The people who have the power to deal with it, since most of humanity is not geared up for that sort of thing.

"Don't the Russians still have-?" He hesitates. "Okay, we would. Doesn't mean that we rule the world."

"What is it that you want to do that you can't do because someone else has that power?"

Not like anyone would really say 'no' if he wanted to suggest some humanitarian reforms to things like healthcare or taxes, for example...

Mr. Atom raises his right hand and stares at his own palm. "Have I..? Taken over the world by accident? Was it always this simple?"

"No." Mr. Queen turns to him. "No it's not, and no you haven't. Paul."

I like that. All his plans, rendered useless by happenstance. Remember, atom: The intelligence of a group is limited to the average of its members. And there are a lot more dumb people than there are smart.

"Oliver."

"How do we untake over the world? Without anyone noticing or you doing any more interviews."

Well, getting working governments up and running would be a good start.

Mr. Atom slowly rotates his hand, still staring at it. "My plan for what do to next involved making a large golden throne of myself. But as Orange Lantern has demonstrated, asteroid mining is not complicated. I could easily obtain the gold to both make the throne and purchase a site in any major metropolitan area."

"Ah…" Alan looks at Mr. Atom in concern. "Mister Atom? Are you okay?"

Hell, with enough money, you could have a throne in every major city in the world... But really, big-ass thrones are just a right pain in the tailbone. Just ask the Emperor of Mankind.

Actually… I'm a little worried as well. He's raised his hands to either side of his head, clasping it as if he was suffering from a migraine.

"I agreed to work with the League in order to perfect my understanding of human social dynamics. I now believe that I failed to fully comprehend the horizons of my own ignorance."

Yep, people really are more stupid than you could ever have calculated. Welcome to 'being the sensible one'. You're in good company with OL.

Alan presses his right hand against Mr. Atom's back.

"That's life, Mister Atom. Some people can just walk right up to you and make you think about things you've done your whole life in a completely new way. But that just means you can go about fixing your oversight more intelligently."

Ah, see? There's charisma. A few words and a person can see things in a whole new light. It might not take, but just being made to see the contrast...

Mr. Queen shakes his head. "Seriously? 'Sit on a golden throne'? That was it?"

"Since the job 'ruler of the world' does not have a description, my conception of it was… Limited."

To quote another famous synthetic mind: "Well, I was born yesterday."

"Now I see what Paul meant about you being young. But, seriously, Paul, how do we change this?"

"Disband the Justice League and join a conventional military or law enforcement organisation. Let the Security Council appoint a director for the Justice League with complete authority over the organisation and knowledge of your real names. Stand for election and hold power using a pre-existing office."

Honestly, the second sounds like the most comfortable option, minimising changes to the way they operate... Outside of the fact that someone they don't know would know who they were.

"We can't-."

"Recognised, Batman, zero two."

With a throbbing headache, no doubt.

Batman walks slowly out of the zeta tube. He body language doesn't suggest that he's irritated, though I note that he's still wearing the yellow ring.

"Hey, Bats." Mr. Queen walks towards him. "Just having my mind blown here. You got something to say about it?"

Huh. I suppose he's judged that he needs the extra power, then. Hopefully he's dealing with it well.

"Yes. Orange Lantern, the current weakness of world governments is very convenient for our work. Stop drawing public attention to it."

I nod. "Will do."

"Good. Mr. Atom, you and I have work to do."

If it hadn't been for the Yellow Ring's presence, I might have thought that Fear was worry about disrupting the world more than they already had.

Quite a chapter today. A few glimpses at the League's overall response to OL's comments earlier, plus the revelation that Bats is still using his ring. It was nice that Ollie, one of the most liberal and socially conscious members of the team, was the one most worried that they were becoming dictators or worse. Also, Mister Atom's little moment of 'Are these humans really that stupid?'

Ardy · Feb 8, 2024

Vaermina said:
Yup, sadly nobody in universe will call him on that particular bit of stupidity.

To be fair, they probably don't want him blowing their minds like he did Atom's

Lord Ernest · Feb 8, 2024

Chojin Patriarch said:
Honestly, the second sounds like the most comfortable option, minimising changes to the way they operate... Outside of the fact that someone they don't know would know who they were.

Have to disagree there. Discounting the fact that right now the UN, as most governments, is practically nonexistent, who knows who would get appointed there? What happens when they end up appointing Lex Luthor as Director of the Justice League with all the knowledge and authority that it entails? Notwithstanding that the JL members are there by their own desire, selflessness and strength of character so why would they obey some random UN appointee, even if it isn't a blatant Supervillain or political pawn?

Honestly, better run for some office and go from there. If Superman ran for President or Batman ran for Gotham Mayor, I don't think criminals make enough votes to withstand the landslide win they would get, just like the President Captain America in Ultimate Marvelverse (I didn't read it, I just heard and read about it).

Signaller · Feb 8, 2024

1. How fast does Mr Atom think/process, on a scale of human to coluan?
2. Is Mr Atom aware of Power Ring Yellow's attempt to take over New York (?) in the 40s?

Rogos · Feb 8, 2024

ptb_ptb said:
Batman apparently does know they have taken over the world, and approves. To be fair, governments in comic books are generally incompetent, evil, or incompetent AND evil.

Well yes, it's one of the central conceits of the superhero genre : the government has to be impotent and/or corrupt, otherwise there would be no need for billionnaires, tech geniuses and assorted superpowered übermenschen to put on some spandex and go around punching idiots, assholes and madmen. It's the same reason superheroes don't spread their proprietary hypertech while saying that "the world isn't ready", because when everyone's super, then no one is, to paraphrase Syndrome. No wonder OL finds it so infuriating.

Cuchulin · Feb 8, 2024

Lord Ernest said:
Have to disagree there. Discounting the fact that right now the UN, as most governments, is practically nonexistent, who knows who would get appointed there? What happens when they end up appointing Lex Luthor as Director of the Justice League with all the knowledge and authority that it entails? Notwithstanding that the JL members are there by their own desire, selflessness and strength of character so why would they obey some random UN appointee, even if it isn't a blatant Supervillain or political pawn?

Honestly, better run for some office and go from there. If Superman ran for President or Batman ran for Gotham Mayor, I don't think criminals make enough votes to withstand the landslide win they would get, just like the President Captain America in Ultimate Marvelverse (I didn't read it, I just heard and read about it).

A lot of criminals would likely vote for them in the hope that being President/Mayor would make the busy enough to not fight crimes nearly as much.

moralrelativity · Feb 8, 2024

Idkusername said:
0_o

I'd really like a citation for this.

Yeah, sounds like pop-psych to me.

Lord Ernest · Feb 8, 2024

Signaller said:
2. Is Mr Atom aware of Power Ring Yellow's attempt to take over New York (?) in the 40s?

Uh, that happened on Earth -14, no? And if he has read through the Illustres' past reports on missions and stuff I would assume so, although not sure why it would be relevant.

LaVa · Feb 8, 2024

Mr Zoat said:
Mr. Atom raises his right hand and stares at his own palm. "Have I..? Taken over the world by accident? Was it always this simple?"

At that point, I just started laughing nonstop. The quintessence of Paul's interaction with each character in this story.
God, this chapter is amazing.

Mr Zoat · Feb 8, 2024

Ngamer11 said:
That should say 'short'.
That should say 'thought'.

Me said:
making a large golden throne for myself

Thank you, corrected.

Chojin Patriarch said:
Consider Captain America, especially in the MCU, who earns his command over the Avengers (including a genius billionaire playboy philanthropist, an alien Norse god, a literal raging monster and various secret agents) by sheer strength of character and morals. He's just that nice a guy...

No. Consider Captain America in the Ultimates universe. Barely out of the ice a month and he could ask the ENTIRE US MILITARY to ignore standing orders and attack the Skrull, and they'd do it.

Also, Mister Atom's little moment of 'Are these humans really that stupid?'

It was really more 'Am I this stupid?'.

Signaller said:
1. How fast does Mr Atom think/process, on a scale of human to coluan?

Pretty much coluan, but coluans are organic humanoids and so share a frame of reference with us. He doesn't. I mean, he tries, but it's not quite there.

2. Is Mr Atom aware of Power Ring Yellow's attempt to take over New York (?) in the 40s?

Power Ring -14? Yes.

Rogos said:
Well yes, it's one of the central conceits of the superhero genre : the government has to be impotent and/or corrupt, otherwise there would be no need for billionnaires, tech geniuses and assorted superpowered übermenschen to put on some spandex and go around punching idiots, assholes and madmen.

[Looks at the world]

Are you sure about that?

ptb_ptb said:
Great. 'Alphas'. Using a discredited study on wolf behaviour to describe purported behaviour of prehistoric humanity. We have no idea how tribes were led - that's what prehistory means. All we know is how they were grouped - small bands of one or two dozen people nearby 10 to 20 other bands. We can presume those 10 to 20 bands usually got on well, so you could arguably call them 'tribes' but we don't know how those bands were led or whether one of those bands led the others.

It's discredited in reference to wolves because the study only looked at wolves held in relatively small enclosures. In universe, characters can just ask someone who was there, and Milgram is very much still valid.

WereDragon · Feb 8, 2024

Mr Zoat said:
"Yes. Orange Lantern, the current weakness of world governments is very convenient for our work. Stop drawing public attention to it."

I nod. "Will do."

Paul's interpretation: Batman has decided to accept the job of running the world and thus he can file the situation under the heading of 'dealt with'.

Signaller · Feb 8, 2024

Mr Zoat said:
Pretty much coluan, but coluans are organic humanoids and so share a frame of reference with us. He doesn't. I mean, he tries, but it's not quite there.
...
Power Ring -14? Yes.

So Mr Atom could consider arranging a consultation with Lantern Gozzi (since Dox II is busy) and/or someone from Universe -14, and contrast their experiences/advice.

Mr Zoat said:
In universe, characters can just ask someone who was there, and Milgram is very much still valid.

How old is Dr. Mist? Old enough to remember the small tribes era?

Mr Zoat · Feb 8, 2024

Signaller said:
So Mr Atom could consider arranging a consultation with Lantern Gozzi (since Dox II is busy) and/or someone from Universe -14, and contrast their experiences/advice.

With regards to conquest? I mean, he could, I'm just not sure how applicable their problems are to him.

How old is Dr. Mist? Old enough to remember the small tribes era?

According to the wiki, around 11000 years old.

Radix · Feb 8, 2024

Azure Mirage said:
In any social situation, who generally gets the most attention, and thus gets paid attention to? The strongest, or smartest, combine BOTH and you get a potent competent leader figure. Charisma is just making everything work better and lubricates social situations because people like charismatic folk.

Early human groups likely did the same exact thing we do today. Just go out and experience life and social situations, someone always is posturing or making it seem like they want attention or want to be the one making decisions.

Public Education forced me to recognize the common threads of life. The term Alpha may not be accurate, but it *fits*.

It really doesn't. In small groups, humans tend to work cooperatively rather than with one central leader. In other primates we can observe behaviors actually discourage an alpha from emerging.

If someone tries to posture and get more without doing more, they will get ostracized from the group. "Alpha leader" behavior developed as humanity grew beyond Dunbar's Number and thus a central organizing leader is needed.

Steelplaza · Feb 8, 2024

As I recall, the yellow ring that Batman is using was pretty derided by the Weaponeer that made it. (Or maybe just one that analyzed it? I can't remember.) It's ill-adjusted in various unspecified ways that make it more difficult to use than a power ring should be, and the SI essentially said "yeah but all it has to do is put out yellow light on command, I'll take it". I suspect it's much closer to Alan Scott's original power ring, with the AI and other support functions broken or crippled.

I wonder if in a way that doesn't make it a better ring for Batman than a well-functioning power ring. Batman is a guy with access to any technology money can buy, and his primary weapon is his own fists. Even primitive physical weapons are only the back-up and it's notable he uses batarangs, not bat-slingshots. It's not that he doesn't like technology. He uses plenty of it. It's that he wants his primary weapon to be something he can absolutely control, and there's nothing he has more control of than his own body. So a "crippled" yellow ring with most of the support functions down is one where Batman has to do everything "on manual" with it. If he wants to fly with the ring it's not effortless, he has to keep up a low level fear of falling at all times. Etc. That... that actually sounds exactly like Batman's sort of power ring. It won't do anything he doesn't explicitly make it do through careful and deliberate fear manipulation.

If Batman and OL weren't on such bad terms right now, I'd really like to see what Bruce has made of this new tool.

Ngamer11 · Feb 8, 2024

Mr Zoat said:
Break Time (part 24)
Break Time (part 25)
6 882 938.M41
Xenopsychology (part 18)

I was rereading, and found that Xenopsychology part 18 should be between Break Time part 24 and Break Time part 25 in the TOC.

Mr Zoat · Feb 8, 2024

Ngamer11 said:
I was rereading, and found that Xenopsychology part 18 should be between Break Time part 24 and Break Time part 25 in the TOC.

Thank you, corrected.

Dur'id the Druid · Feb 8, 2024

ptb_ptb said:
To be fair, governments in comic books are generally incompetent, evil, or incompetent AND evil.

One of the big reasons I stay away from DC and marvel comics is because so much of the plot is pushed by someone being an ass just for the sake of it. It's not believable after the 20th time it happened.

Only universe that was able to have the super hero and villain dynamic believably maintained was in the Villains Code series by Drew Hayes. And that was mainly because the most powerful supers had an unwritten peace agreement, and an unlikely but personal relationship that the public don't know about. As well as visceral examples in history of what happens when that agreement breaks down. Not to mention some really wise and smart people on both sides, who are personally invested in keeping the greater peace.

.

.... and now that I wrote that all out, it was really unlikely to happen in the first place, wasn't?

Darko · Feb 8, 2024

Dur'id the Druid said:
One of the big reasons I stay away from DC and marvel comics is because so much of the plot is pushed by someone being an ass just for the sake of it. It's not believable after the 20th time it happened

Oh no, it's sadly all too believable.

History is full of people hurting others for seemingly no reason, or at least incredibly stupid and petty reasons.

Dur'id the Druid said:
.... and now that I wrote that all out, it was really unlikely to happen in the first place, wasn't

Yeah, it probably wouldn't happen, especially from the side of the villains.

If they're only interested in things like robbing banks with lasers and robot dinosaurs then it may work since they're not necessarily all that ambitious.

However if they're interested in things like world domination then it would be very likely that they'd have a giant ego and don't think the rules apply to them, so they would lash out at everyone that tried to stop them, including their fellow villains.

Honestly, any sort of realism when trying to apply a villain code would probably look something like you would see in the Sopranos rather than the Godfather.

In the Godfather the mob is presented as having some code that they try to stick to, but in the Sopranos they break their codes whenever it's convenient with little hesitation.

And that's true of a lot of criminal groups, no matter how much they can be romanticized by others.

Ardy · Feb 8, 2024

Darko said:
In the Godfather the mob is presented as having some code that they try to stick to, but in the Sopranos they break their codes whenever it's convenient with little hesitation.

Worm imitates life.

Deadring · Feb 8, 2024

Idkusername said:
0_o

I'd really like a citation for this.

There is no citation, humans have never worked like this.

Notice how everyone who says this is true can't provide sources, only a vague "but it just feels true!". This is because there are no sources for this assertation, only emotional appeals.

Dur'id the Druid · Feb 8, 2024

Darko said:
.

One caveat to that wide brush. There are also a lot of criminal groups that became more legitimate over time. Have to as the group becomes larger, or just want to make something that will last more than a decade. And stay out of prison.

Biggest examples, knights and nobility. Trace the roots of many knightly orders or noble lines and you'll find that many were originally raiders and bandits who became successful enough that they attracted a large group of people with families and built a fortress to make it easier to do so. Maybe even calling the first leader or one of their kids a king.

And even in modern times organized crime actually do a lot of legal business. The crimes they commit are more of a often profitable side job, not their primary life or lifestyle. The sterotype of people living a gangsta life 24/7/365 is usually just people promoting the hype, or idiots who actually think it's a good thing and trying to be intimidating.

Ardy · Feb 8, 2024

So I was just rereading some warhammer Paul and… Zoat, are you sure you're British?

Mr Zoat said:
About fifteen hundred miles in total. The bit we're digging now is about five hundred, and it won't be all that deep or wide to start with.

With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

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