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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Supnautica (part 45) New
7th May 2013
14:06 GMT -2


"So are we on a time limit..?"

"I don't know." The air in front of him shimmers. "I don't know. I built control mechanisms into the spell architecture, but with a different sort of power flowing through I can't predict the speed."

"Is it just a matter of power flow?"

"I. Don't. Know. It's not-. Even impossible that it actually won't cause a problem. It's just astronomically unlikely."

"I ask because I can generally drain power, regardless of its form."

"That would be-. Barely better. But please: lecture me on magic."

"I don't even know who you are. And given the fight I just had against the late masters of Kor, I'm not going to assume that your knowledge is entirely up to date."

"Animated corpses can't fight as well as they could in life. The proper application of magic requires intelligence."

"Alright, let's lay out the problem."

The shimmer stabilises into… A hallway?

"Let us not."

He takes a moment to gather himself and then strides through. The portal… Stays open, and… There's basically nowhere I can go that I can't get back from if I have to, so… I step through.

"The raw energy is designed to interact with the spells you've laid out-" He's striding down the corridor, and I… Don't try flying wherever this is, and trot after him instead. This place looks like a… Early modern palace, walls panelled and decorated with friezes, roof high and vaulted. "-which in turn connect to everyone via your piscine transformation spells. Which means that the nature of the energy matters."

"There are second-order spells designed to act in response to the result of that. Except that now they won't, they'll do something else. Rather than make my people joyful at the new state of affairs…"

"They'll be driven mad by it?"

He glances back, walking faster. "I don't know."

"Where are we?"

He snorts, returning his attention to the path ahead. "You should have asked that before you followed me. I don't need you."

"I'm a superhero. Doing unwise things to stop bad things is basically what we do. I don't expect you to like me, but, again, the more that I know-."

"We are in the house of Destiny so that I can steal a picture."

"Oh, how novel." I look around and entirely fail to see a man in a grey robe chained to a book. I mean, it's not like he doesn't know that we're here. "Now I don't know how fucked we are either."

"If he hasn't stepped in by now, then I'm supposed to be here."

"Or he'll just walk up when it's most appropriate. Unless either of us are immune to destiny."

Which…

"Ah, if someone tried to find your name with a spell that runs off the Book of Destiny, and the spell fails, does that mean that you're immune to destiny?"

He hesitates at an intersection, mutters something under his breath and then turns left. "It might."

"In that case, he probably doesn't know that we're here, but he's going to be really angry when he finds out."

"How are you immune to destiny?"

"If I knew that-."

"Do not make.. glib quips when the fate of my people is on the line!"

"I come from a universe that is architecturally different from this one. No magic, and I'm going to guess that we don't have anything similar to fate for mine to have been transcribed onto the local fate-system when I came here."

"Then I can use you as a distraction. If you interfere with his system by existing then he will focus his rage on you-."

"He didn't get angry last time he ran into people with that ability. And it's possible that he's just put a basic ward on his book. Which he can't alter, so I'm not sure… What he can do against me. Or you."

"Treasure your lack of imagination."

"I guess people pay him for information?"

"How do you even breathe?"

"Well, between the two of us, I'm the one with a working relationship with two of the Endless, and as a Lantern I don't need to breathe."

"Which two?"

"Dream and Desire. Desire thinks I'm fun to prod. With Dream I assisted him with a minor matter. Do you-?"

"That's no help. Desire helps you once, then ruins everything else you do so that it sticks in your memory. And what Dream does when-."

"He takes all the worthwhile parts to put in his domain forever while the material version loses all the traits that make it worth existing, I know." Huh. "But how do you know that hasn't already happened? I mean, Atlantis fell from-."

"I asked, and he mentioned it."

"How do you even know where we're going?"

"There's a progression in the friezes. You didn't notice?"

"No."

"Magic isn't just about raw power and knowledge. You have to develop an understanding for the rule-systems that define the greatest currents of power. Awareness of your environment is essential, because every tiny clue emerges from those rule in places of power like this. It's been a long time since I've been this powerless, but needs must."

"Okay, so what are you going to do when we get… Wherever we're going."

"Short circuit my own spell and hope that the power loop doesn't drive everyone mad before your allies can destroy the anchor stones. I doubt that it will work, but it's the only thing I could think of that might."

"Just in case you die in the attempt, where is King Orin really?"

"I needed the heart of a king. He's still alive, but he doesn't-. At last!"

A large room, a table, and… Seven portrait frames. Er… Okay, Dream, Death, Desire, those I recognise. The robe with a face is… Destiny. There's a sheet over one. Destruction? One shows an emaciated women sitting on a turntable, rocking back and forth with her arms wrapped around her legs as she spins slowly around, and Ahri'ahn is heading towards it.

The last one is empty. Uh.

"How remarkably fitting."
 
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A large room, a table, and… Seven portrait frames. Er… Okay, Dream, Death, Desire, those I recognise. The robe with a face is… Destiny. There's a sheet over one. Destruction? One shows an emaciated women sitting on a turntable, rocking back and forth with her arms wrapped around her legs as she spins slowly around, and Ahri'ahn is heading towards it.

The last one is empty. Uh.

"How remarkably fitting."
I'm guessing Despair is the one talking here.

Also, seeing Ahri'ahn so far up his ass that he believes he's the only one on the planet with a brain makes me really hope he suffers a fate worse than death, no offense intended to Death.
 
And people were saying Paul had bad decision making when he took the Fruit.

Ahri'ahn is making Renegrayven's worst decisions look tame.

And he put himself on a collision course with Darkseid.
Holy crap...

Did Darkseid write anti-life into the universes basic compositional forces?
Considering the empty portrait, this is more likely to be Despair. I can't wait to see how this encounter will proceed, because I can't imagine any way for Paul to talk Despair out of doing something they want to do.
 
7th May 2013
14:06 GMT -2


"So are we on a time limit..?"

"I don't know." The air in front of him shimmers. "I don't know. I built control mechanisms into the spell architecture, but with a different sort of power flowing through I can't predict the speed."
Now where is he planning to go? Some secret control space he made to manage the spells? At least OL will be sticking to him like glue, so there's little chance of him not being brought to task for his foolishness.

"Is it just a matter of power flow?"

"I. Don't. Know. It's not-. Even impossible that it actually won't cause a problem. It's just astronomically unlikely."
Well, so much for being an 'expert' in the use of the Endless' energies, huh? 😏

"I ask because I can generally drain power, regardless of its form."

"That would be-. Barely better. But please: lecture me on magic."
Well, things are better understood than in your birth era, at least. As much as you can understand such a wild, chaotic power.

"I don't even know who you are. And given the fight I just had against the later masters of Kor, I'm not going to assume that your knowledge is entirely up to date."

"Animated corpses can't fight as well as they could in life. The proper application of magic requires intelligence."
I don't know, they put up one hell of a fight back there. If that was them at a fraction of their full potential, it's a wonder anything survived from those days.

"Alright, let's lay out the problem."

The shimmer stabilises into… A hallway?
Good, simple logic, get everyone on the same foot, that'll save tripping over each other's heels.

"Let us not."

He takes a moment to gather himself and then strides through. The portal… Stays open, and… There's basically nowhere I can go that I can't get back from if I have to, so… I step through.
And if 'Arry didn't want you to follow him, then he should have closed the door.

"The raw energy is designed to interact with the spells you've laid out-" He's striding down the corridor, and I… Don't try flying wherever this is, and trot after him instead. This place looks like a… Early modern palace, walls panelled and decorated with friezes, roof high and vaulted. "-which in turn connect to everyone via your piscine transformation spells. Which means that the nature of the energy matters."
Yes, very nice place by the sounds of it. Care to share where we are, 'Arry?

"There are second-order spells designed to act in response to the result of that. Except that now they won't, they'll do something else. Rather than make my people joyful at the new state of affairs…"

"They'll be driven mad by it?"
Because they're getting the wrong input. Classic programming error, and I see the same principles hold true in magic.

He glances back, walking faster. "I don't know."

"Where are we?"
Oh, he's panicking, or as close to it as a cold fish like him gets... Joy. Not knowing what will happen must be burning at him.

He snorts, returning his attention to the path ahead. "You should have asked that before you followed me. I don't need you."

"I'm a superhero. Doing unwise things to stop bad things is basically what we do. I don't expect you to like me, but, again, the more that I know-."
And you never know, right man in the right place, that sort of thing.

"We are in the house of Destiny so that I can steal a picture."

"Oh, how novel." I look around and entirely fail to see a man in a grey robe chained to a book. I mean, it's not like he doesn't know that we're here. "Now I don't know how fucked we are either."
It's not like he has to be standing right there right now. If this is narratively important, then he'll show up to you if he has to. Or not. It's all in the script.

"If he hasn't stepped in by now, then I'm supposed to be here."

"Or he'll just walk up when it's most appropriate. Unless either of us are immune to destiny."
And he probably has something of a puckish sense of timing, it'd be one of the few luxuries he has given his duty.

Which…

"Ah, if someone tried to find your name with a spell that runs off the Book of Destiny, and the spell fails, does that mean that you're immune to destiny?"
...Oh, right, that's a thing about OL, isn't it?

He hesitates at an intersection, mutters something under his breath and then turns left. "It might."

"In that case, he probably doesn't know that we're here, but he's going to be really angry when he finds out."
Or pleasantly amused, or maybe realise he can't even perceive the being Ahri'ahn is talking to. It all comes down to how OL interacts with the Book and Destiny themself.

"How are you immune to destiny?"

"If I knew that-."

"Do not make.. glib quips when the fate of my people is on the line!"
Say it with me: Superhero. Quips come with the territory, even if OL doesn't indulge in the 'Bond oneliners' much.

"I come from a universe that is architecturally different from this one. No magic, and I'm going to guess that we don't have anything similar to fate for mine to have been transcribed onto the local fate-system when I came here."

"Then I can use you as a distraction. If you interfere with his system by existing then he will focus is rage on you-."
No need to mention the lack of a soul, 'Arry's smart enough to realise that. That might be another thing Destiny takes an interest in, the difference between a universe bound by narratives (pretty much all the inserted universes) and one bound by deterministic physics.

"He didn't get angry last time he ran into people with that ability. And it's possible that he's just put a basic ward on his book. Which he can't alter, so I'm not sure… What he can do against me. Or you."

"Treasure your lack of imagination."
...And now I wonder what he can do to people who he takes a dislike to. Unless there's a sort of 'the reader alters the story they read.' aspect to his nature.

"I guess people pay him for information?"

"How do you even breathe?"
Okay, we get it, you think OL's dumb. 😏 No need to be so rude about it...

"Well, between the two of us, I'm the one with a working relationship with two of the Endless, and as a Lantern I don't need to breathe."

"Which two?"
Something I suspect he's very curious about, since most mortals only interact directly with one Endless in their lives. usually at the beginning of it, and at the end, if you catch my drift.

"Dream and Desire. Desire thinks I'm fun to prod. With Dream I assisted him with a minor matter. Do you-?"

"That's no help. Desire helps you once, then ruins everything else you do so that it sticks in your memory. And what Dream does when-."
Well, that's just a very cynical view to take... Probably not wrong, but still.

"He takes all the worthwhile parts to put in his domain forever while the material version loses all the traits that make it worth existing, I know." Huh. "But how do you know that hasn't already happened? I mean, Atlantis fell from-."

"I asked, and he mentioned it."
Presumably he consulted the gent when he devised his plan. And quickly decided not to poke that bear unless he had to.

"How do you even know where we're going?"

"There's a progression in the friezes. You didn't notice?"

"No."
Probably some incredibly subtle fractal progression in their design.

"Magic isn't just about raw power and knowledge. You have to develop an understanding for the rule-systems that define the greatest currents of power. Awareness of your environment is essential, because every tiny clue emerges from those rule in places of power like this. It's been a long time since I've been this powerless, but needs must."
You are hardly powerless, 'Arry. Otherwise, you wouldn't be here, trying to do... Whatever the hell this is. I assume he's going to use the portrait of Delirium to either contact her or adjust the filters on his spells. And since the former might annoy her - or worse, get her interest - It's most likely the latter.

"Okay, so what are you going to do when we get… Wherever we're going."

"Short circuit my own spell and hope that the power loop doesn't drive everyone mad before your allies can destroy the anchor stones. I doubt that it will work, but it's the only thing I could think of that might."
So effectively grabbing the table, and shaking it a bit in preparation to flip it. I have the feeling it'll have messy results for Atlantis no matter what happens.

"Just in case you die in the attempt, where is King Orin really?"

"I needed the heart of a king. He's still alive, but he doesn't-. At last!"
Well, you'd better be able to put him back together. I suspect the League will be quite vexed with you when they learn of this.

A large room, a table, and… Seven portrait frames. Er… Okay, Dream, Death, Desire, those I recognise. The robe with a face is… Destiny. There's a sheet over one. Destruction? One shows an emaciated women sitting on a turntable, rocking back and forth with her arms wrapped around her legs as she spins slowly around, and Ahri'ahn is heading towards it.
...Emaciated? Isn't Despair usually portrayed as a grossly overweight woman? Or is that Delirium, feeling a little run ragged by the drain Ahri'ahn's been hitting her with?

The last one is empty. Uh.

"How remarkably fitting."
Ah, hello, Despair. Because when an Endless' portrait is empty, it's usually because the subject is visiting.

Well, then. A face-to-face meeting with Despair, who quite likes her sibling Delirium. And the person responsible for whatever current state she's in right there. This promises to be quite harrowing for Ahri'ahn, and it's unlikely OL will be able to do anything to stop her. Then again, she might just be enjoying the archmage's current state, being who she is. Guess we'll see soon how she'll act.
 
against the later masters
"the late"
he will focus is rage on you-."
"his rage"
Also, seeing Ahri'ahn so far up his ass that he believes he's the only one on the planet with a brain makes me really hope he suffers a fate worse than death, no offense intended to Death
To be fair, aside from not knowing about Delirium, he is a master archmage.
 
To be fair, aside from not knowing about Delirium, he is a master archmage.
Doesn't change the fact that his arrogance potentially doomed Atlantis. He literally planned on making Atlanteans Earth's master race by changing who they are on a fundamental level solely because he wanted to and thought he knew best how to achieve such a thing with no backup plan or assistance needed. Just in the last few story parts he's thrown off his mask of civility and shown Paul just how little he thinks of everyone else. That's why I'm excited to see what horrible fate awaits him for his hubris.
 
Doesn't change the fact that his arrogance potentially doomed Atlantis. He literally planned on making Atlanteans Earth's master race by changing who they are on a fundamental level solely because he wanted to and thought he knew best how to achieve such a thing with no backup plan or assistance needed. Just in the last few story parts he's thrown off his mask of civility and shown Paul just how little he thinks of everyone else. That's why I'm excited to see what horrible fate awaits him for his hubris.
Look, just because you horribly messed up and perhaps doomed your civilization once is no reason to lose your confidence and become plagued by self-doubt. That's just unhealthy, no one would get anything done. It's really only by the third doomed civilization it's time to consider that maybe your approach is fundamentally flawed and you need consultations from other people before setting out to change the world.
 
Despair is higher than Darkseid/antilife right?

i'd like an answer to this too... IIRC, they're both claimed as being multiversal forces, but i would think since there are multiple Darkseids fulfilling one role, but only one Despair, then Despair would be higher.

but this also leads me to ask: which came first, Despair or the AntiLife? did one beget the other?
 
The Anti-Life equation is a mathematical proof that free will is a lie, life is not worth living, and total submission to Darkseid is the closest thing to meaning a soul can actually experience.

It also contains despair in it as one part of the equation, so I would assume Despair predates it as the equation could not have been formulated without despair.
 
Ahri'han or whoever this is said he needed Aquaman's heart did he mean that literally? If so is he using magic to keep Aquaman alive without it?
 
Holy crap...

Did Darkseid write anti-life into the universes basic compositional forces?
I think Darkseid would be well and truly screwed if he tried doing that. New Gods are strong, but the Endless are whole different ball parks. Any of them would OBLITERATE Darkseid if he so blatantly tried to corrupt the very essence of their domain at source of it all.
 
The Anti-Life only makes you despair if you can still resist. People who have been thoroughly exposed are often quite happy about it.

Anyone here watch Sliders? Remember the episode where everyone gets dosed with narcotics as a matter of course? The scene where one character burns dinner, and the other says that he doesn't mind and that he's not sure he can?

That's Anti-Life.
 
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...Emaciated? Isn't Despair usually portrayed as a grossly overweight woman? Or is that Delirium, feeling a little run ragged by the drain Ahri'ahn's been hitting her with?

That's Delirium, yes - and not far off her usual appearance (inasmuch as her appearance is ever quite static enough to be usual). Describing her eyes probably would've helped ID her a little more definitively, but . . . *Shrugs*
 
I think Darkseid would be well and truly screwed if he tried doing that. New Gods are strong, but the Endless are whole different ball parks. Any of them would OBLITERATE Darkseid if he so blatantly tried to corrupt the very essence of their domain at source of it all.
Mr Zoat has written out most of the higher level stuff in the setting so there's no real way to answer that.

Outside of this story however, all we really know is that Life and Anti-Life predate the Endless.
 
i'd like an answer to this too... IIRC, they're both claimed as being multiversal forces, but i would think since there are multiple Darkseids fulfilling one role, but only one Despair, then Despair would be higher.

but this also leads me to ask: which came first, Despair or the AntiLife? did one beget the other?

in the silver age, Darkseid studied life-worshipping Martian monks IIRC to learn the life formula, and then from it derived for his own use the Anti-Life.
 
Supnautica (part 46) New
7th May 2013
14:10 GMT -2


The… Person I'm looking at is short and so fat as to be virtually spherical. He or she is also naked, and the adipose flaps make it hard to tell which is appropriate. Their skin is chalk white and their hair is pitch black, done up in a topknot like a sumo wrestler but more messily Their eyes are black, with tiny little points of white where an unusually small pupil might go.

I bow courteously. "Despair. I'd say that it's a pleasure to meet you, but I fear your power too much to lie."

I glance behind me to see Ahri'ahn backing away rather frantically.

"Huh. Do you think he's going to fail?"

"The only way to avoid failing is to avoid trying. But if he doesn't snap out of it and get a move on then he's definitely going to fail here."

Despair waddles up until she's standing besides me. "You're doing well."

"Thank you. Did you enjoy our exposure to the Anti-Life?"

"A little. It's too forced, really. I prefer it when it's more individualistic. Like being sacrificed to the Tezcatlipoca every day for centuries with no hope of-."

Ahri'ahn falls to the ground clutching at his bleeding chest.

"-being released, knowing that your friends could probably have rescued you if you hadn't betrayed them completely unnecessarily."

Lumps of… Ahri'ahn fall-. No, drip off, the cloth of his clothing becoming partially liquid and running off his outline, taking colour and physical integrity with it. Then the effect spreads to his face, his features warping like molten wax-.

"So you are Queen Gamemnae under there. Let me just-."

I step forward, intending to pull the clay off her smaller frame so that she can breathe… And clone her a new heart while I'm at it, because I guess that Despair just made Gamemnae's lowest point just a bit more real which means that she doesn't have one at the moment.

"No."

Despair takes hold of my arm-.



"Huh."

"Would you rather hold hands?"

"No, it's just-. I've been hit with the Anti-Life before. I was sort of assuming that physical contact with you would… Do something similar."

Despair makes an expression that might generously be called a smile.

"Try moving."

I-.

Ah. It turns out that Despair is quite strong. No matter. I-.

I.. don't seem to be able to cut off my own arm. Or remove friction. Or transition. Or extend a filament. I'm not going to try stepping out while Despair is holding on to me because that sounds like a higher order terrible idea. Instead, I reach into my armour's sheath with my free hand and pull out an x-ionised dagger.

"That's your best idea?"

"Please let me go?"

Probably-Gamemnae collapses onto her face, weakly clawing at the molten clay covering her face.

"Guess."

I bring my knife across and-. The blade doesn't cut through my armour.

"That should work. Is that you?"

"You can cut your arm off if you want. But you won't get it back."

"Promise?"

"I said it, didn't I?"

"Yes, but was it an observation or an offer of a pact? Are you guaranteeing that if I cut it off you'll use your despair powers to keep me from growing it back, or are you just saying that arms don't grow on trees because you're a busy being and you don't actually know anything about me."

"A lasting wound that you couldn't fix would undermine your entire personal philosophy, wouldn't it?"

"That's an observation, not an answer."

"Stop playing-" Gamemnae manages to claw the clay away from her mouth. "-it's game! Work out what the rulesmgph-!"

That's not even slightly acting like clay. It's deliberately oozing over her mouth, nose and eyes.

Ah…

Okay, she can hear me. The problem is her despair. I'm not sure if Despair can make someone despair about something that didn't actually bother them. And despair isn't fear, so just saying 'it might not happen' isn't going to be enough if things have gotten to this stage.

I glance at the picture of Desire-.

"My sister-brother wouldn't help. They'd be fascinated to see what you want most."

Okay, er…

Rules.

Gamemnae was genuinely despairing in whatever part of the Aztec afterlife she was stuck in. Despair is making her relive that. How-?

"Gamemnae! Shout, 'Hail Hephaestaean, King of the Gods and Master of Technology'!"

"Muh?!"

"That way, if you die, you'll go to Erebus rather than Mictlān! Hades only does finite punishments! You can sidestep the whole heart thing! I mean, you'll be punished, but he might take time served into consideration!"

"Muh-ugh?!"

"I'm not good at this sort of puzzle, but it will work."

"Ugh! Mhm Muhmhmughmum, muh mh mh mugh mh muhmh mh mumumugh." … "Mughmuh?"

"It helps if you mean it, but if you've never seriously worshipped any other god then that should do." Ah… Other thing. Everyone in Atlantis going mad. "Okay, I think that the effect of any Delirium-related magic would fade if they were disconnected from the system, right?"

"Muyomugh!"

"So even if it does go wrong, then all we have to do is change them back into baseline humans and give them counselling for the induced madness. Most of them should recover eventually. Then we can shut the whole thing down, and if they want to become Purebloods or whatever again, we can do that. That should work, shouldn't it?"

"Muh… Might..?"

Queen Gamemnae looks her dry-clay-covered form over, then reaches up to her chest to check that her heart is back again. Then she awkwardly and unsteadily stands, staring wide-eyed at Despair, who let's go of my arm.

"Thank you."

Despair gestures vaguely in the direction of Gamemnae. "Carry on. You haven't succeeded yet."
 
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He's from outside the universe, and he gave himself a soul made of the Orange Light, which is - as far as I'm aware - largely a property of this multiverse.

He's a fun curiosity!

The question is, if this is Gamemnae, where's Ahri'ahn? How did she make sure he was out of the way before taking his shape? And - did the Renegade kill Ahri'ahn, or Gamemnae? Because if the Dolmen Gates (which Atlantis could already make) didn't draw him, then he wouldn't show up barring the business with the Un-men and Arion.

And I'm not sure if Gamemnae would kill Arion - is it just part of the disguise? Did she have emotions regarding Ahri'ahn?

We saw René-ahn die, and he… turned to water? I have to go reread that section. (Would Gamemnae turn to water? Both are Atlantean Archmagi…)

He shudders and wheezes as the air is forced from his lungs, his rushed shield failing to stop my descending daiklave! It bites into his left shoulder and keeps going, slicing through the middle of his chest and exiting through his right hip! He collapses, blood spurting and ruined organs falling onto the drawing room floor.

He stares at me with a look of absolute hatred for a few seconds before I put out his eyes with the Sword of the Fallen.

And that's it. Still, I imagine that - seeing as how 'that' Ahri'ahn was racist in plan and catastrophic in raising Atlantis, while Gamemnae-ahn hyperfocused on fixing the raising/halping the Atlanteans… they're different people.
 
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It seems like all of the Endless he meets end up liking Paul to some degree.
I think they, generally, enjoy dealing with a mortal that A: knows not to fuck with them and B: is polite and cordial. Unless he does anything to piss them off (jury's still out for Destiny), I imagine it's refreshing to talk with someone who's not groveling or being an idiot.
 
"A little. It's to forced, really. I prefer it when it's more individualistic. Like being sacrificed to the Tezcatlipoca every day for centuries with no hope of-."
That should say 'too'.

"It helps if you mean it, but if you've never seriously worshipped any other god then that should do." Ah… other thing. Everyone in Atlantis going mad. "Okay, I think that the affect of any Delirium-related magic would fade if they were disconnected from the system, right?"
That should say 'effect'.

Queen Gamemnae looks her dry-clay-covered form over, then reaches up to her chest to check that her heart is back again. Then she awkwardly and unsteadily stands, staring wide-eyed at Despair, who let's go of my arm.

"Thank you."

Despair gestures vaguely in the direction of Gamemnae. "Carry on. You haven't succeeded yet."
I really like Paul's interactions with the Endless. I can't wait to which one will pop in next and why they'll do so.

We saw René-ahn die, and he… turned to water? I have to go reread that section. (Would Gamemnae turn to water? Both are Atlantean Archmagi…)
If I remember correctly, he turned old before dying after being stabbed with the Sword of the Fallen. That implies that really was Ahri'ahn. That brings up the question if Gamemnae killed him in the Paragon timeline before assuming his identity.
 

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