With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[Gantradies]

They meant well, but I think they screwed up the execution in various ways, some rather serious... and Ryand'r joining them had serious consequences for his whole planet, IIRC.

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yeah- they take the leeroy-jenkins approach to political change- they charge in without a solid plan or stratergy past the immediate tactical level,and start blowing things up, and are shocked, SHOCKED, i tell you, when they fail to improve the overal state of the region/get attacked by the peopel they're trying to "liberate"/"help" >.<

IF they were a tip-of-the-spear unit under a larger organiseation with dedicated task-forces for cleanup/intel gathering, they could be useful, but as-is, they're.... you know..

 

[jaelin910]

Yes... Because gods forbid it might be connected to his own failings as a teacher...

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...what?
Hinon: your lanterns haven't gone crazy. We want to work out why.
Grayven: I think tamaranians are just resistant.
You: no it's because you're a bad teacher.

I know we just got done with talking about this being pointless but... Are you even seeing the same update we are?

 

[RichardWhereat]

I know we just got done with talking about this being pointless but... Are you even seeing the same update we are?

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No. However, I'd love to read the same story he reads, side by side with this one. It could be interesting.

 

[DAT_NOOB]

It was really more Tamaranian culture than anything the Renegade did.

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hush now papa Grayven's a good teacher.

but honestly, I was thinking about it in more the sense of knowing when to get of the student's way.

I'm pretty sure in a hypothetical AU where for some reason Tamaranian culture didn't have that effect he'd step in an give advice, if for no other reason than it gets him a small empire.

 

[Vaermina]

It was really more Tamaranian culture than anything the Renegade did.

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So basically put the thing he is blaming for them going crazy is the thing that's keeping so many of them sane.

Talk about irony.

 

[Silverias]

So basically put the thing he is blaming for them going crazy is the thing that's keeping so many of them sane.

Talk about irony.

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What the fuck are you talking about? He SPECIFICALLY is saying that Tamaranians DON'T go crazy.

 

[Mr Zoat]

What the fuck are you talking about? He SPECIFICALLY is saying that Tamaranians DON'T go crazy.

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Ah, no, they do, just not often and they usually recover. One advantage of them having to return to the Central Power Battery to recharge means that as long as Hinon hangs around there she can check them.

 

[Silverias]

Ah, no, they do, just not often and they usually recover. One advantage of them having to return to the Central Power Battery to recharge means that as long as Hinon hangs around there she can check them.

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I was imprecise. I was refuting Vaermina's claim that Grayven was blaming Tamaranian culture for them going crazy.

 

[Coda]

Absolutely! Do please provide such a list; it'll either be great evidence against you, or quite entertaining. Win/win.

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I mean, it's not that uncommon. When it does legitimately happen, one of us points it out and it gets retconned, handwaved, or lampshaded. (Nice thing about this format -- retcons can actually be retroactive instead of pretending that the old thing didn't happen.)

I wave my right hand. "Half of your work until all my Lanterns are equipped and I have a.. small number of spares. I am not interested in expanding the region I control at present, but I do want to make sure that it is protected."
Not really living up to 'Conquest' are you? But then, that's not really the Renegade's true nature.

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Sure he is. Not much of a conqueror if you can't KEEP that which you have taken. He said "at present" -- expansion comes after he gets the base secure.

 

[Ardy]

Wow, sure is quiet around here now that I blocked Vaermina. I wonder if it's connected, somehow.

 

[Buggy123]

I mean, it's not that uncommon. When it does legitimately happen, one of us points it out and it gets retconned, handwaved, or lampshaded. (Nice thing about this format -- retcons can actually be retroactive instead of pretending that the old thing didn't happen.)

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Yeah, but I'm not sure if I'd really count those. Official DC comic writers still make mistakes and typos too, they just have editors and proofreaders. Zoat has us. If he makes a mistake and its fixed within all of 15 minutes, I'd just call that a typo.

 

[Mr Zoat]

5th February
10:02 GMT -5

"I'm so sorry for keeping you waiting."

Linda King of the Metropolis Star scurries over to the seats in her newspaper's waiting room and holds out her right hand.

I smile as I stand up and take it. "Not at all, Miss King. Thank you for seeing us."

I don't know whether the Metropolis Star exists back on Earth 16. The Daily Planet exists here, but it's one of those weird 'dog ate my alien' lunacy tabloids that America seems to produce in a bewildering quantity. The Metropolis Star on the other hand has a reputation for unflinching honesty and a fearless determination to find the truth. Which means I guess they change ends when matter changes polarity?

They published stories about Ultraman while he was still an up-and-coming crime boss, resulting in several hospitalisations amongst their staff. They published stories about the Syndicate while they were de facto rulers of the country. And recently they've been publishing stories about the police state President Wilson has been creating, which has resulted in several arrests. Miss King has even published interviews with Syndicate members, including a seventeen year old on death row. She's ideal for our purposes.

"And…" She looks at Zatanna. "You are?"

I destroy the bugs and generate a sound-deadening field, then nod.

Zatanna smiles. "Zatanna Zatara."

"Ohh." Hm. Nervousness, but no fear. She doesn't think that we're going to threaten her. "I… Didn't know there were any other Zataras in America right now."

Zatanna shakes her head. "I just got here."

"I should.. probably warn you that our premises are monitored… Constantly. Usually when Syndicate members want to speak to me they arrange a meeting somewhere else."

"That's not a problem for us."

"I-. No, I don't see, but… Okay, if you're sure." She takes a step away. "Why don't you come into my office."

We follow her through the main desk warren of the Metropolis Star, several reporters and subeditors regarding us with fascination as we pass. Miss King opens the door to a corner office to let us inside, then follows us in and closes the door behind her. Then she closes the blinds facing the main office. Then she crosses the room and closes the exterior blinds, which is a bit of a give-away if anyone actually is watching. Then she motions for us to take a seat on a small armless settee while she pulls over a quilted stool to sit down opposite us.

"Can I record this conversation?"

I shrug. "As far as I'm concerned. But… Some parts… Can't be made public without… Having some fairly negative consequences for a lot of people."

"People being..?"

"The population of America. That's not a threat from me. Just a… Realistic assessment of the likely outcome."

"Okay, warn me when we get to those." She frowns at Zatanna. "You look a lot like Zorina. Are you her… Sister?"

"Parallel universe double."

"Like.. the Justice League." Zatanna nods. "So you're a.. superhero?"

"Ah… Trying to be. But the situation here is… Complicated."

"Normally, we'd work with the government against something like the Syndicate. But… Then I heard about what President Wilson had been up to."

"I, ah…" She laughs nervously. "Have had disagreements with President Wilson, but he's not trying to blow up the entire planet."

"Neither is the Syndicate any longer. At least, as far as I've been able to tell."

Because while Victoria can block me and Mister Scott is filled with yellow, Mister Constantine was wide open.

"You want to help them… Because they're less evil?"

"Because if they're trying to reduce the level of violence considerably I can justify giving them a little help. But if Slade Wilson is turning America into a totalitarian state, I can't justify giving him the level of help he would need in order to secure total victory. But I can't trust what they're telling me." I lean back. "So… Is he?"

"I-. Hm." She thinks for a moment. "I don't… Think so. He reacts like a totalitarian dictator to anything relating to the Syndicate, but no one who questions his foreign policy or healthcare policy gets treated in the same way. And totalitarians are total. It's all about them, their ego. I spent enough time in the Middle East and South America to recognise the psychology. For President Wilson, it's all about the Syndicate."

"How… Bad has he actually got?"

She shrugs. "We've got martial law everywhere there was a Syndicate boss, and a number of other places besides. We've got thousands of people in special detention centers and no sign that they'll be given access to a lawyer, let alone a trial date. The troops pulling law enforcement duty are a lot more willing to shoot than the police used to be-. Police used to be before the Syndicate took over."

I nod.

"But I don't know whether they're going to stay there when President Wilson leaves office. And I don't know whether or not whoever comes next will keep up his policies."

"Alexander Luthor, right?"

"Like I said, Wilson only acts totalitarian with the Syndicate. I haven't seen any sign he's going to try and fix the election. But.. probably."

"And what happens then?"

She shakes her head. "Your guess is as good as mine. I'd like to think that he'd start some sort of trials process, but we haven't quite gotten to that part of the electoral cycle yet and I don't think he'd want to undermine the President by openly disagreeing with his policy."

"What's the general opinion in the country like?"

"Mostly, extremely supportive of the President. Due process isn't usually popular until you're the one being denied it." She sighs. "Honestly, I think he could order the summary execution of everyone they're holding and get a round of applause in most places."

"Do you know.. what proportion are actually..? Guilty?"

"You'd know better than me. But… Even if they're all guilty of the things they've been accused of, a lot of it should be.. minor stuff. Instead, they're being housed in a military stockade, with all the problems that creates."

I nod. Armies aren't designed for criminal rehabilitation any more than they are policing. American prisons are pretty unpleasant anyway, and the soldiers are going to be inclined to regard the people they're holding as guilty until ordered otherwise. Now I'm getting Marvel: Civil War flashbacks.

"Now why don't you tell me something?"

I shrug. "After Fawcett City, what was left of the Syndicate began rallying around new.. senior members. Those members then offered President Wilson a conditional surrender. His response was to go on television and give his 'no quarter' speech."

"He did that because they-? And it was genuine?"

"Owlman's bomb was insane. Think about it: what were they going to do if they actually set it off? Most of the Syndicate would die, let alone everyone they rely on for basic goods and services. With the old Management gone, most of the lower level organisers wanted to go back to being normal criminals. The 'threat to the world' thing looked like a bad plan when the ones masterminding it were dead."

"There have been plenty of attacks since then."

"Of course there have. The New Management made the surviving Made Men aware of their position when they tried to convince them it was the best route forwards. After President Wilson publically slapped them down, they lost face and members of the organisation began looking for other leadership."

"I can.. publish this?"

"Sure. Everyone in the Syndicate knows what happened, so you won't be undermining anyone." I make an amused snort. "And if what you're saying about public opinion is true, I doubt that anyone on the President's side will care either. And… You know that at the end of the Second World War, the Japanese offered to surrender before the atomic bombs were dropped?"

She nods.

"The American government refused it because it wasn't unconditional. I've got a worrying suspicion that this is going to go about as well as that did. Only this time, the Japanese have second strike nukes themselves."

 

[Handlewithcare]

Well, this is just a shit-show of a situation.

Also, what does this mean:
"Which means I guess they change ends when matter changes polarity?"
?

 

[Vaermina]

"The American government refused it because it wasn't unconditional. I've got a worrying suspicion that this is going to go about as well as that did. Only this time, the Japanese have second strike nukes themselves."

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Paul... You need to stop helping the mass murdering psychopaths just because they look like people you know...

 

[Chojin Patriarch]

I don't know whether the Metropolis Star exist back on Earth 16. The Daily Planet exists here, but it's one of those weird 'dog ate my alien' lunacy tabloids that America seems to produce in a bewildering quantity. The Metropolis Star on the other hand has a reputation for unflinching honesty and a fearless determination to find the truth. Which means I guess they change ends when matter changes polarity?

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I expect the Star does exist and is taken about as seriously as the Enquirer...

Spoiler: Commentary spoilered for length

The published stories about Ultraman...

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They published stories about Ultraman...

They published stories about the Syndicate while they were de facto rulers of the country. And recently they've been publishing stories about the police state President Wilson has been creating, which has resulted in several arrests. Miss King has even published interviews with Syndicate members, including a seventeen year old on death row. She's ideal for our purposes.

Click to shrink...

So, determined to present the truth, regardless of the risk to themselves. Also, Vibe's alt is on death row at 17? What for?

I destroy the bugs and generate a sound-deadening field, then nod.

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Privacy, always handy.

"I should.. probably warn your that our premises are monitored…

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"I should.. probably warn you that our premises are monitored…

We follow her through the main desk warren of the Metropolis Star, several reporters and subeditors regarding us with fascination as we pass. Miss King opens the door to a corner office to let us inside, then follows us in and closes the door behind her. Then she closes the blinds facing the main office. Then she crosses the room and closes the exterior blinds, which is a bit of a give-away if anyone actually is watching. Then she motions for us to take a seat on a small armless settee while she pulls over a quilted stool to sit down opposite us.

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It's like watching a child playing at spies.

"Parallel universe double."

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And only in a comic-book universe would that be a believable explanation. Fortunately...

"I-. Hm." She thinks for a moment. "I don't… Think so. He reacts like a totalitarian dictator to anything relating to the Syndicate, but no one who questions his foreign policy or healthcare policy gets treated in the same way. And totalitarians are total. It's all about them, their ego. I spent enough time in the Middle East and South America to recognise the psychology. For President Wilson, it's all about the Syndicate."

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It's a personal Crusade. Of course he's a little.. Focused.

She shrugs. "We've got martial law everywhere there was a Syndicate boss, and a number of other places beside. We've got thousands of people in special detention centres and no sign that they'll be given access to a lawyer, let alone a trial date. The troops pulling law enforcement duty are a lot more willing to shoot than the police used to be-. Police used to be before the Syndicate took over."

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Presumably, the Cops would have accepted bribes to turn a blind eye. Soldiers, not so able.

She shakes her head. "Your guess is as good as mine. I'd like to think that he'd start some sort of trials process, but we haven't quite gotten to that part of the electoral cycle yet and I don't think he'd want to undermine the President by openly disagreeing with his policy."

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That would be political suicide.

"Mostly, extremely supportive of the President. Due process isn't usually popular until you're the one being denied it." She sighs. "Honestly, I think he could order the summary execution of everyone they're holding and get a round of applause in most places."

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...Wow.

I nod. Armies aren't designed for criminal rehabilitation any more than they are policing. American prisons are pretty unpleasant anyway, and the soldiers are going to be inclined to regard the people they're holding as guilty until ordered otherwise. Now I'm getting Marvel: Civil War flashbacks.

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Let's hope this doesn't get as dumb as that did.

"He did that because they-? And it was genuine?"

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Blind hatred knows no logic.

The 'threat to the world' thing looked like a bad plan when the ones masterminding it were dead."

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And it's hard to back down from a threat that big without looking weak, either. The Management were hosed either way.

"Of course they have. The New Management...

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This feels a bit odd. Perhaps 'there'?

Yep, this is a tangled web that's been woven. At this rate it might take the Damocles method to sort out.

 

[Lord Ernest]

Marvel's Civil War had some dumb stuff but the concept itself was fascinating for me. Of course, the execution wasn't that good either, when it was clear which one was the good and the bad side of the conflict. And then some time later I read a... Tie-in or something? About the guys imprisoned on the Negative Zone and uff... there weren't just good and bad side, there was good and superheroes-turned-supervillains side.

This situation looks bad allover but it's really nuanced and complex. At this point the goal is trying to reach an understating between the parties that, while not perfect, manages to keep the country standing and most can live with.

By the way, I didn't know the stuff about the Japanese offering surrender before the bombs and just read some details about it; can somebody explain it to me a bit more, unbiasedly? 'Cause I need some context on that.

 

[RichardWhereat]

By the way, I didn't know the stuff about the Japanese offering surrender before the bombs and just read some details about it; can somebody explain it to me a bit more, unbiasedly? 'Cause I need some context on that.

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It's true, but the Japanese did some horrific shit that they didn't deserve a conditional surrender over. KnowingBetter has a good video of it.

 

[Cuchulin]

By the way, I didn't know the stuff about the Japanese offering surrender before the bombs and just read some details about it; can somebody explain it to me a bit more, unbiasedly? 'Cause I need some context on that.

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I don't know if that actually happened, I do remember that the Emperor at the time did want to for while before the bombs were dropped but was pushed out of official power by the top military brass. The thing to remember is that the Japanese cult of the warrior at the time took death before dishonor VERY, VERY seriously being quite willing to die in near pointless attacks to avoid capture and from what I have heard near the end school children were training in melee weapon use in order to kill soldiers, members of the military leadership wanted plans from Scientists for the population to live under ground and basically eat rocks in order avoid having to surrender in the face of a enemy that had Atomic bombs. The Japanese leadership also convinced women and civilians on some of the last islands we captured during WWII that American soldiers were so horrible that basically all those Japanese killed them selves or each other rather than surrender.

It's true, but the Japanese did some horrific shit that they didn't deserve a conditional surrender over. KnowingBetter has a good video of it.

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Or go with the classic movie Bridge on the River Kwai which, despite depicting torture and ending with the death all the main characters, is a light and fluffy version of the building of the Burma Railway, also known as the Death Railway, by the Japanese between '42 and '43. Which still isn't nearly as bad as some of the things the Japanese did in China and Korea around that time.
That said I think the Unconditional surrender was more about the need to demilitarize Japanese society and remove the emperor from power as not only was he the subject of a cult of personality Japan's emperors were seen more or less as gods in native Shinto Religion.

 

[Mr Zoat]

The published stories about Ultraman...
They published stories about Ultraman...
"I should.. probably warn your that our premises are monitored…
"I should.. probably warn you that our premises are monitored…
"Of course they have. The New Management...
This feels a bit odd. Perhaps 'there'?

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Thank you, corrected.

They published stories about the Syndicate while they were de facto rulers of the country. And recently they've been publishing stories about the police state President Wilson has been creating, which has resulted in several arrests. Miss King has even published interviews with Syndicate members, including a seventeen year old on death row. She's ideal for our purposes.
So, determined to present the truth, regardless of the risk to themselves. Also, Vibe's alt is on death row at 17? What for?

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A wide variety of crimes, including being a member of the Syndicate.

 

[Slayer Anderson]

Well, this is just a shit-show of a situation.

Also, what does this mean:
"Which means I guess they change ends when matter changes polarity?"
?

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They swap places (ends of the spectrum) when you're in an opposite-polarity universe (good/evil flip).

IE: One news industry becomes honest and forthright, the other becomes a shitty tabloid.

 

[BR549]

But actually, JinglesZoat...

"Offered to surrender and it was refused by the American government because it wasn't unconditional" is not exactly true, especially the part in bold.

The Japanese government, which had officially stated that its policy was "the Japanese people would fight to extinction rather than surrender" - a policy adopted on June 6, 1945 - had made unofficial overtures to the Soviet Union to mediate a conditional cessation of hostilities. They believed that the Soviets would remain neutral and had been blindsided by the unconditional-surrender-only declaration at Potsdam; the Soviets, already all-in on coming into the war and fully aware of Potsdam having been there and helped craft it, spun a tall tale to Tokyo: "Stalin and Molotov strung out the negotiations with the Japanese, giving them false hope of a Soviet-mediated peace", while demanding at Yalta to their allies that there be no separate or conditional peace made.

And quoth Prime Minister Suzuki in response to Potsdam:

"I consider the Joint Proclamation a rehash of the Declaration at the Cairo Conference. As for the Government, it does not attach any important value to it at all. The only thing to do is just kill it with silence (mokusatsu). We will do nothing but press on to the bitter end to bring about a successful completion of the war"



So, yes, unofficial overtures were made...but it was the Soviet government that was contacted and didn't negotiate, from the Japanese-perspective-with-hindsight, in good faith.

 

[Buggy123]

Paul... You need to stop helping the mass murdering psychopaths just because they look like people you know...

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He can take them down, certainly, and he has ample justification. But in that time span, they could level a few cities. He can't simultaneously take down every single one of them if they're trying to actively disengage/rampage instead of attacking him.

Doing whatever you can to keep the mass murderers from doing things that warrant terms like "megadeaths" is probably a good idea, even if it technically means helping them do less-murdery things.


(I tried to find the comic where Superman-expy Hyperion is rampaging, and they talk about how long it would take him to kill human civilization, but I can't find it. Does anyone have a link?)

 

[Sordid Snake]

I've long suspected that Tamaranian culture makes for Lanterns who are able to channel the orange light without going into crazy mode

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If Larfleeze etc was leaking avarice all over Vega for billions of years, isn't it likely that all native Vegan species, like Tamaraneans, would have developed some sort of tolerance for avarice?

That in turn made me wonder what kind of tolerance Earthlings have developed from the White Entity living there?

 

[TheEyes]

Paul... You need to stop helping the mass murdering psychopaths just because they look like people you know...

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Paul doesn't care much about the psychopaths on either side; as far as I can tell he's on the side of the tens of millions of civilians who will die if the Syndicate and President Wilson get into a total war situation.

 

[Mr Zoat]

(I tried to find the comic where Superman-expy Hyperion is rampaging, and they talk about how long it would take him to kill human civilization, but I can't find it. Does anyone have a link?)

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If you're talking about the one in Supreme Power, that was a researcher talking about how long they thought it would take. He didn't actually go on a rampage.

 

[bobsimmo]

But actually, JinglesZoat...

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[Buggy123]

If you're talking about the one in Supreme Power, that was a researcher talking about how long they thought it would take. He didn't actually go on a rampage.

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That's the one, yep. I think you linked to it in some chapter, but I can't remember which.

 

[DAT_NOOB]

Paul... You need to stop helping the mass murdering psychopaths just because they look like people you know...

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I disagree that's the best reason to help people because they'll never turn on you

 

[Mr Zoat]

That's the one, yep. I think you linked to it in some chapter, but I can't remember which.

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Here you go.

 

[Mquz]

Paul... You need to stop helping the mass murdering psychopaths just because they look like people you know...

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He's helping them because they have a hostage situation here, with both sides using hostages. Power Ring and Olympia could do a lot of damage before they were stopped. Like he said, both sides have metaphorical nukes. Maybe power ring wouldn't blow up the world, but he could probably easily destroy a major city in revenge. Or get the Zatanna mafia to do it. Sure, Ultraman has specific weaknesses making him easy to kill, but the people left over are better generalists. Olympia vs Medea seems like a fair enough fight, and Power Ring could probably cause literal nuclear Armageddon if he wanted to.