Taliesin
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I can't find anything like that with a cursory search, but of course that doesn't disprove it. It does have an urban myth feel to it though.
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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)
- Thread starter Mr Zoat
- Start date
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- self insert young justice
I can't find anything like that with a cursory search, but of course that doesn't disprove it. It does have an urban myth feel to it though.
Ardy
I trust you know where the happy button is?
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God, this whole thread is so so weird now that I'm missing half the conversation.
And yet I'm happier.
Anyway, glad Paul is getting some unbiased opinions. Maybe he could be a tourist with Zatanna for a week in deep space before heading home and just not dealing with this shit.
And yet I'm happier.
Anyway, glad Paul is getting some unbiased opinions. Maybe he could be a tourist with Zatanna for a week in deep space before heading home and just not dealing with this shit.
Mquz
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That's boring tho... there has to be some resolution
Doppelgängered (part 15)
Mr Zoat
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5th February
14:20 GMT -5
"Laever."
Zatanna continues staring at the Staff of, the runes glowing as she studies their interaction. Miss King's archive was enlightening, and with Mr and Mrs Kent murdered in their Aruba retirement home I may have to reconsider the 'exile' thing. It could have just been one of their criminal rivals, or Doctor Chaos trying to stir things up, but it would be very much in keeping with what I've learned of Slade Wilson's character to have organised the hit himself. The Kents weren't part of the Syndicate, though they were certainly involved in the country's criminal networks. They appear to have supplemented their farming income by being a step along the narcotic and people trafficking route, arranging for their neighbours to get cheap farm labour from Mexico and covertly growing and processing any number of plants that are illegal in the US. They sold the whole thing to their son once the Syndicate expanded into that area, and now almost every person of Mexican extraction in Kansas is in a prison camp for 'Syndicate-related criminal activity'.
Mary Batson's parents died in suspicious circumstances years ago. Charles Vicker's parents died before his rise to power, and his brother died during it. Johnny Quick's parents were blissfully unaware of his activities in America until the Australian Federal Police knocked on their door. Only Miss Batson and Mr Kent had family who were Syndicate members, and unless the Super family somehow survived Fawcett City it's just Ultraboy and Mary Mayhem. A one-and-a-half year old and… Nine year old? Nine years ago is the first time Mary Mayhem showed up, about the time her… Whatever relation to her Mary Batson has, began taking control of Fawcett City.
Both murderers. Both marked for death.
"Are they coming?"
"Probably. But you can hardly blame them for wanting to be sure that we aren't laying a trap."
She nods. "Should I put up some sort of protective spell?"
"No. If anyone is coming, they're almost certainly watching the place now. If they see you-."
"If they see me casting a spell, they'll think it's a trap regardless of what the spell actually does. But that does mean that if they try and trap us, we're going to be less safe."
"Which is sort of the point of this whole thing."
She frowns, then nods in understanding. "Because President Wilson doesn't want to risk the Syndicate getting strong enough to take control of the country again? And talking to us could risk him giving them the opportunity to rebuild."
"Not even that far. Just getting the ability to actually have discussions face to face without one side being tortured for information or killed out of hand." … "Your armour is fully charged, right?"
"Yes, though I don't know if it would stop Medea. Do you think that's the name their Circe took, or do you think she's actually Medea?"
"Our Circe killed our Medea when it looked like she might fulfil the-."
An area on the other side of the warehouse shimmers, vague outlines running into one another for a few moments before solidifying. One resolves into a heavily cyberised woman, another into a large gorilla who's wearing-. I can't immediately tell whether that's actual power armour or if he's just that big. Lady Sonar and General Grodd. Until recently the Syndicate thought that the former was dead and that the latter had returned to Africa. And between them, sitting on a floating sphere…
"Enigma, I presume."
Half of his face is covered by a metal mask and he's wearing a black suit with green trim. In addition to his sphere he has a question mark-topped staff, held in his right hand and resting on his knees.
He's not smiling.
The gorilla raises a heavy projectile weapon and points it directly at me. Empathic vision isn't working on any of them, but that gun isn't much more than it seems. Minimal threat. Scans aren't piercing Lady Sonar's armour, but I've seen records of what her soniguns can do. Some of the exotic effects might be a problem, but I'm not feeling all that worried. Which leaves the sphere. All sorts of weapons could be in there.
"I understand that we have you to thank for the release of Star Sapphire."
I can just about see the burned flesh underneath the half-faceplate. I'm going to assume that was a result of his fights with the Syndicate, though his profile picture still shows him having an unburned face.
"I was able to negotiate her release, yes. If she passed on my message-."
"Yes, you want to talk us into letting you all off."
"That's not quite it, but yes, in effect."
"You're not really selling the idea to me."
"You know what the Syndicate still has in its arsenal?"
"Some of it."
"At present, the policy of the New Management is to close down their strategic weapons programs and avoid confrontation where possible. But if they don't end up with something to show for it, the Made Men will stop listening to them. How many people died at Doctor Chaos's command after President Wilson rejected their last offer?"
"You mean, how many people did he kill?"
I nod. "Yes. And order killed, and were killed in response. I'm not trying to convince you that they're nice people or that they'll reform." Though some might. Or rather, might have done. Given how my alter ego joined, I could well believe that there were other Made Men who were strong armed into it. Like Jade's alter ego, Sai. The reverse morality thing should have made her a hero here. Something odd happened there. "It's just that the consequence of carrying on as you are is lots more death."
"And what would be the death toll in the long term of allowing the Syndicate to survive?"
"I don't know. Compared to what?" We watch each other for a moment. "How did the President or the Vice President take it?"
"The President declined your offer. I'm only here out of a sense of personal obligation."
"'Declined' as in 'you're going to try and bring us in' or 'declined'-."
"There will be no deals with the Syndicate's Management. No bargains for leniency, no informal understandings, no expectation that we will do anything other than kill all of you."
"Regardless of who else dies in the process?"
"Regardless. The Syndicate is simply too dangerous to be allowed to exist."
I.. nod. That's a problem, but hopefully we can work around them. "Very well." Is there anything else I want to ask him? "What happened to the 'quiz' thing?"
"Ultraman burned off half my face, then murdered my wife, my son and my daughter. I haven't really been in the mood since then."
"So is that it? Slade Wilson can beat a helpless prisoner to death with an iron bar because that prisoner murdered his wife? Should I let Ultraboy know that it's perfectly legitimate for him to kill President Wilson? And that afterwards he has to let Rose kill him?"
"Oh, Ultraman killed far more people than just Lillian Wilson. And we bereaved are perfectly happy with what happened." He leans forward slightly on his floating sphere. "You think that letting them get away is justified by the harm avoided? I think that the harm we'll suffer is worth it to permanently get rid of them."
"And then what?" He jerks his head towards Zatanna. "What happens when everyone in the Syndicate, and.. half the country are dead?"
"Then -assuming that I am not amongst the dead- we rebuild. A society without supervillains."
"A society which has abandoned the rule of law? Where a word from the President and the cries of the mob are enough to sentence a person to indefinite imprisonment or death?"
"No. Once the Syndicate are gone, then things can return to normal."
"And what about the families of the innocent people who the army killed? Why is what happened to your family more important than what's happening-"
He presses something on his staff, as they start to blur again.
"-to theirs?"
And… They're gone.
Zatanna sighs. "I don't think that worked."
"No. But it was a long shot, anyway. Let's see what we can do on the other end."
14:20 GMT -5
"Laever."
Zatanna continues staring at the Staff of, the runes glowing as she studies their interaction. Miss King's archive was enlightening, and with Mr and Mrs Kent murdered in their Aruba retirement home I may have to reconsider the 'exile' thing. It could have just been one of their criminal rivals, or Doctor Chaos trying to stir things up, but it would be very much in keeping with what I've learned of Slade Wilson's character to have organised the hit himself. The Kents weren't part of the Syndicate, though they were certainly involved in the country's criminal networks. They appear to have supplemented their farming income by being a step along the narcotic and people trafficking route, arranging for their neighbours to get cheap farm labour from Mexico and covertly growing and processing any number of plants that are illegal in the US. They sold the whole thing to their son once the Syndicate expanded into that area, and now almost every person of Mexican extraction in Kansas is in a prison camp for 'Syndicate-related criminal activity'.
Mary Batson's parents died in suspicious circumstances years ago. Charles Vicker's parents died before his rise to power, and his brother died during it. Johnny Quick's parents were blissfully unaware of his activities in America until the Australian Federal Police knocked on their door. Only Miss Batson and Mr Kent had family who were Syndicate members, and unless the Super family somehow survived Fawcett City it's just Ultraboy and Mary Mayhem. A one-and-a-half year old and… Nine year old? Nine years ago is the first time Mary Mayhem showed up, about the time her… Whatever relation to her Mary Batson has, began taking control of Fawcett City.
Both murderers. Both marked for death.
"Are they coming?"
"Probably. But you can hardly blame them for wanting to be sure that we aren't laying a trap."
She nods. "Should I put up some sort of protective spell?"
"No. If anyone is coming, they're almost certainly watching the place now. If they see you-."
"If they see me casting a spell, they'll think it's a trap regardless of what the spell actually does. But that does mean that if they try and trap us, we're going to be less safe."
"Which is sort of the point of this whole thing."
She frowns, then nods in understanding. "Because President Wilson doesn't want to risk the Syndicate getting strong enough to take control of the country again? And talking to us could risk him giving them the opportunity to rebuild."
"Not even that far. Just getting the ability to actually have discussions face to face without one side being tortured for information or killed out of hand." … "Your armour is fully charged, right?"
"Yes, though I don't know if it would stop Medea. Do you think that's the name their Circe took, or do you think she's actually Medea?"
"Our Circe killed our Medea when it looked like she might fulfil the-."
An area on the other side of the warehouse shimmers, vague outlines running into one another for a few moments before solidifying. One resolves into a heavily cyberised woman, another into a large gorilla who's wearing-. I can't immediately tell whether that's actual power armour or if he's just that big. Lady Sonar and General Grodd. Until recently the Syndicate thought that the former was dead and that the latter had returned to Africa. And between them, sitting on a floating sphere…
"Enigma, I presume."
Half of his face is covered by a metal mask and he's wearing a black suit with green trim. In addition to his sphere he has a question mark-topped staff, held in his right hand and resting on his knees.
He's not smiling.
The gorilla raises a heavy projectile weapon and points it directly at me. Empathic vision isn't working on any of them, but that gun isn't much more than it seems. Minimal threat. Scans aren't piercing Lady Sonar's armour, but I've seen records of what her soniguns can do. Some of the exotic effects might be a problem, but I'm not feeling all that worried. Which leaves the sphere. All sorts of weapons could be in there.
"I understand that we have you to thank for the release of Star Sapphire."
I can just about see the burned flesh underneath the half-faceplate. I'm going to assume that was a result of his fights with the Syndicate, though his profile picture still shows him having an unburned face.
"I was able to negotiate her release, yes. If she passed on my message-."
"Yes, you want to talk us into letting you all off."
"That's not quite it, but yes, in effect."
"You're not really selling the idea to me."
"You know what the Syndicate still has in its arsenal?"
"Some of it."
"At present, the policy of the New Management is to close down their strategic weapons programs and avoid confrontation where possible. But if they don't end up with something to show for it, the Made Men will stop listening to them. How many people died at Doctor Chaos's command after President Wilson rejected their last offer?"
"You mean, how many people did he kill?"
I nod. "Yes. And order killed, and were killed in response. I'm not trying to convince you that they're nice people or that they'll reform." Though some might. Or rather, might have done. Given how my alter ego joined, I could well believe that there were other Made Men who were strong armed into it. Like Jade's alter ego, Sai. The reverse morality thing should have made her a hero here. Something odd happened there. "It's just that the consequence of carrying on as you are is lots more death."
"And what would be the death toll in the long term of allowing the Syndicate to survive?"
"I don't know. Compared to what?" We watch each other for a moment. "How did the President or the Vice President take it?"
"The President declined your offer. I'm only here out of a sense of personal obligation."
"'Declined' as in 'you're going to try and bring us in' or 'declined'-."
"There will be no deals with the Syndicate's Management. No bargains for leniency, no informal understandings, no expectation that we will do anything other than kill all of you."
"Regardless of who else dies in the process?"
"Regardless. The Syndicate is simply too dangerous to be allowed to exist."
I.. nod. That's a problem, but hopefully we can work around them. "Very well." Is there anything else I want to ask him? "What happened to the 'quiz' thing?"
"Ultraman burned off half my face, then murdered my wife, my son and my daughter. I haven't really been in the mood since then."
"So is that it? Slade Wilson can beat a helpless prisoner to death with an iron bar because that prisoner murdered his wife? Should I let Ultraboy know that it's perfectly legitimate for him to kill President Wilson? And that afterwards he has to let Rose kill him?"
"Oh, Ultraman killed far more people than just Lillian Wilson. And we bereaved are perfectly happy with what happened." He leans forward slightly on his floating sphere. "You think that letting them get away is justified by the harm avoided? I think that the harm we'll suffer is worth it to permanently get rid of them."
"And then what?" He jerks his head towards Zatanna. "What happens when everyone in the Syndicate, and.. half the country are dead?"
"Then -assuming that I am not amongst the dead- we rebuild. A society without supervillains."
"A society which has abandoned the rule of law? Where a word from the President and the cries of the mob are enough to sentence a person to indefinite imprisonment or death?"
"No. Once the Syndicate are gone, then things can return to normal."
"And what about the families of the innocent people who the army killed? Why is what happened to your family more important than what's happening-"
He presses something on his staff, as they start to blur again.
"-to theirs?"
And… They're gone.
Zatanna sighs. "I don't think that worked."
"No. But it was a long shot, anyway. Let's see what we can do on the other end."
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Buggy123
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Should this just be "Staff of", or should there be something after the "of"?
Edit: Hm, I guess it might be referencing how the staff of love is now the staff of nada.
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Razorfloss
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Well that's going to raise a few feathers.
Handlewithcare
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Oh dear.
Can't say I don't understand Enigma though. Hard not to want revenge after that.
Can't say I don't understand Enigma though. Hard not to want revenge after that.
Chojin Patriarch
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Staff of... what? Methinks you're missing a word there.
Uh, also missing something here?
Wow, the Kents were not nice people. No wonder Ultraman was an asshole.
Nice of you to think of that now...
Any number of useful devices, certainly.
Relatively recent, then.
I'm guessing a considerable amount.
Like perhaps, her becoming a hero in another universe
Riddle me this...
Yep, Wilson's Crusade mentality is still in full effect.
"Ultraman burned off half my face, then murdered my wife, my son and my daughter.
Where does the cycle of revenge end? Hopefully not with a giant moon tree and a fistfight on a nuclear scale...
Nope. Diplomacy check failed. At least it wasn't a critical fail. That would trigger a boss fight.
Seriously, this is looking worse and worse. The end of Kingdom Come is starting to look nicer than the probable battles ahead.
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RichardWhereat
Aia airëa Fëanáro.
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Ganurath
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I wonder if the situation with Sai is that the Syndicate isn't the only side in this conflict with a "Join or Die" policy, and some who would otherwise be heroes had to join the Syndicate to get a measure of protection from the government.
iamnuff
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... Paul really should have stopped him when he said 'You' while referring to the syndicate, and pointed out that they're actually forigners.
There's really nothing to be gained by allowing people to think that you're a member of a criminal cartel.
Also, Quizmaster is right, the syndicate need to die, and this mindless assuption that killing them all HAS to involve massive casualties seems like a lack of foresight.
Locate their backup plans and failsafes (fail-deadlies?) and then ambush them and wipe them out while another team takes care of their bombs and plagues and curses, or whatever else they have buried away.
Get the whole Zatara family together for a big celebration and drop a sound-baffle around them as they succumb to drugged food or something.
Taking people down without allowing them to cause mass-casualties is what being a superhero is all about. The idea that it's totally inevitable seems like something that batman would scoff at.
What, are they relying on tanks and missiles because they don't have any heavy-hitters who can go toe-to-toe with powerhouses Olypia or something?
There's really nothing to be gained by allowing people to think that you're a member of a criminal cartel.
Also, Quizmaster is right, the syndicate need to die, and this mindless assuption that killing them all HAS to involve massive casualties seems like a lack of foresight.
Locate their backup plans and failsafes (fail-deadlies?) and then ambush them and wipe them out while another team takes care of their bombs and plagues and curses, or whatever else they have buried away.
Get the whole Zatara family together for a big celebration and drop a sound-baffle around them as they succumb to drugged food or something.
Taking people down without allowing them to cause mass-casualties is what being a superhero is all about. The idea that it's totally inevitable seems like something that batman would scoff at.
What, are they relying on tanks and missiles because they don't have any heavy-hitters who can go toe-to-toe with powerhouses Olypia or something?
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Buggy123
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That'd be pretty great, to be honest.
... Well, not the Zatanna getting traumatized. That'd suck for her. But it's not every day you get to see a civilization of mutual hatred and violence dissolve into a orgy of unbridled mayhem, ultimately leaving behind a pile of blissfully peaceful ruins.
Bigreader
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You know what he should do you should probably just suggest to The Syndicate that they should all just use their travel to other universes technology to travel to some other Universe where there are no superheroes or even where there is and rhey are unknown and then just you know don't do the same big stuff again and then block off that Universe from their method of travel so that they can't be followed. Cuz it doesn't look like there's going to end any other way then full War.
Mr Zoat
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Thank you, corrected.
Actually, with The Professor, Mister Richter and The Future dead, the Wanted universe might actually have room for them.
Buggy123
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I'm not sure there are universes like that. They don't have the whole infinite-quantum-parallel-worlds thing; DC universes appear to be basically handcrafted and there are around a few dozen total I think.
Of course, this depends on when you count them. The entire multiverse has been broken and glued back together several times now, and each new version is more confusing than the last.
iamnuff
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That's just dumping them on another society that has no way to resist them. That's just turning more innocent people into victims.
Dumping them on an uninhabited world might work, but I expect the syndicate to implode and kill each-other before too long, because building a sustainable society is hard work. Lots of people would starve, because without people to take things from, they don't have any way to gain anything.
Slayer Anderson
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I'm normally one for rooting the problem out at it's source, but the sheer scale of what they're talking about doing is honestly more monstrous than anything the Syndicate ever actually accomplished.
Conservatively, if Zatanna's right, you're looking at one hundred and fifty million people dead and the destruction of virtually all infrastructure and support on a national level.
That's putting aside the near-complete economic collapse the US will suffer, the international depression from the loss of one of the world's major trading powers, and...
...yeah, while the Syndicate definitely aren't good people, a government and its actors need to be pragmatic and realistic enough to know how far is too far.
These people are not making sane or rational decisions if what we've been shown is accurate.
SpiritualSlacker
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Yes. It also weakens his rhetoric. A disinterested ("disinterested" as in "unlikely to have a personal stake in the matter") concerned outside party has a much easier time convincing the people involved in a conflict of the reasonableness of their argument.
DAT_NOOB
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what if there are 52 universes? I'll see myself out
Buggy123
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I'm not sure these people can actually be convinced; I'd wager they don't want to preserve the country or protect people, yada yada, they have a personal vendetta against the Syndicate. They want them dead, consequences be damned. One hundred fifty million corpses is merely a small price to pay for that.
It just so happens that people almost always create arguments for actions, rather than actions from arguments. Far fewer people realize this, so from a third-person perspective things can seem a bit confusing and counterintuitive.
BR549
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There are indeed 52...in the standard multiverse.
IIRC, DC cosmology has multiple Multiverses, so you functionally have inifinite ones..
Stsword
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Thanks to hypertime, each universe in a multiverse has infinite universes branching off of it too.
Prince Charon
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... and Enigma et al would believe him, why? For that matter, would they even care, given that Paul is advocating for going soft on people that Enigma (at least, probably the other two as well, but it's hard to say) wants very seriously dead, at nearly any cost?
iamnuff
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Exactly.
A neutral third party clearly doesn't have an agenda either way, they're just trying to do the thing that seems best for the random civilians that have to live in this verse, where-as the people on both sides have their own biases and yearning for revenge.
iamnuff
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Well, they know that people from another universe exist, since a forign justice-league is the only reason they overthrew The Management in the first place, and Orange Power Rings don't seem to exist in this universe/on this earth. (larfleeze might have one, but nobody on earth knows who he is)
Also, he's with a Zatara who seems similar to but not exactly like the one they already know.
Seems pretty believable to me, but they'd obviously want to verify that.
I'm the same way, which is why I have to question the rest of it.
Sure, Zatanna mentioned that killing the syndicate would end up killing half the country, but A: Where did that number come from? And B, why is that a hard number?
Did they see something in the syndicate base that we didn't get to see?
Surely the casualty numbers depend entirely on how they go about it, with military intervention having massive casualties and something like a superhero strike-force attacking the villains in an isolated area would naturally have less.
They don't want to fight the syndicate like two armies fighting a war, they want to strike at them like assassins, going right for the heads and/or the most dangerous weapons in their arsenal first, taking those off the table and then mopping up the least dangerous members afterwards.
Attacking, for example, the Zatara crime family in the streets would lead to massive casualties as a while clan of reality warpers start tearing the city apart.
On the other hand, if they manage to find them all in one place and took them out with sleeping gas and sound-baffles to prevent them from speaking, then the casualty-rate should drop to near-zero.
Prince Charon
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Perhaps, but judging by their behavior and Enigma's responses, I still don't think that they'd care, or at least that they'd make much distinction between 'member of the Syndicate' and 'powered non-Syndicate-member who is trying to negotiate on behalf of the Syndicate.'