General World of Darkness Discussion Thread QQ Edition

[shadowdice]

So Bloodlines 2 got delayed again? Who would have thought?

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all they've been showing for months are dev diaries that keep going over the same information.

I'm not surprised and wish they would just put a stake in the project since they already ripped out its beating heart and scrambled its brains.

 

[Gereh]

all they've been showing for months are dev diaries that keep going over the same information.

I'm not surprised and wish they would just put a stake in the project since they already ripped out its beating heart and scrambled its brains.

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I'm not sure if this ever had a "heart" or "brain" to begin with.

But yeah you are probably right, I actually thought that it was already canceled, but than today that news came up in my feed, was kinda surprised that the game is still being developed,

 

[Skitzyfrenic]

I'm not surprised. Very few games make it out of this kind of development hell. Even fewer make it out as good games.

My guess was the first studio was too activist (VtM is, by it's nature, a very political game, but my guess is that studio wanted IRL politics and went in hamfistedly and ignored all of the actual vampire thematics, theatrics, and lore. You know basically ignoring everything that makes it VtM while reeeeeeing about things that would get us whacked in the dick for violating r8 to talk about) and proceeded to burn a lot of goodwill away, more than they had gained, with the whole series of firings fiasco, which included Brian Mitsoda. Throw in too many meetings, too much management, probable other staffing issues, and not enough actual development, and the game was dead in the water. Which is pretty common to a lot of studios.

My guess is that this studio, despite having a decently storied name, is basically all fresh people with a dash of experience from other studios, working together largely for the first time, it's huge project with a very dedicated fanbase making this a make a studio break a studio game, and they're running into a fucking load of problems, not the least of which is constantly getting roasted about things like 'Elder vampire isn't crushing people 1v1?' 'Elder vampire willingly showing weakness?' 'F and Johnny Vamphand.'

Oh, and probably loads of PDX people breathing down their necks.

Do you know what we need? What would be easy to do? One with none of the problems like trying to do eco-terrorism without actually coming out and doing it like Earthblood? One that doesn't require 900 million endings and incredible depth of writing, just a couple of bad end endings and a good end ending with some decent characterization of some characters and a very straight forward, near impossible to fuck up storyline?

Imagine this: A tactics/warband/dungeon crawl game, (Breadth chosen in exact implementation for some flexibility) like XCOM, FFTactics, Phoenix Point, Mordheim, Necromunda, Mechanicus, Darkest Dungeon 1&2 but with Hunter the Reckoning. Include gribblies from at least Wraith, Werewolf, Mage, and Vampire. Fuck, maybe even throw in a Demon as a special boss battle off to the side.

It'd be grand, and fairly easy. High replay-ability, simple enough DLCs, support with mods, and then probably rake in cash.

 

[Konradleijon]

There is a big difference in so far that you are on different site of the abuse.
"I want to get raped/abused" - weird fetish, but kinda okay
"I want to rape/abuse" - not okay

That said one of the main reasons Beast is so "controversial" is the author, I don't think if another author had write it would be come up as problematic (at least for the final version, I heard the playtest version was even worse).

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The we abuse people to teach them a very important lesson thing is something from the rewrites not the OG draft so it made it work

So Bloodlines 2 got delayed again? Who would have thought?

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Rather have a good game then a rushed one.

Let it cook. You don't want a Troinka again. Most people play it with mod's because Vanilla bloodlines is a glitched mess

 

[Drak4806]

Did Deviants ever come out?

 

[Repentant_Dragos]

Did Deviants ever come out?

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Yes, for years now, I think?

 

[kamenhero25]

Did Deviants ever come out?

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Yes, for years now, I think?

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Yeah, Deviant came out in 2021, and it had a companion last year, and one earlier this summer. It's a pretty neat system, especially for being able to free-form build your powers.

 

[Drak4806]

Huh maybe I was thinking of something else that still wasn't out despite it being years.

Okay well I'll go check it out then.

 

[Konradleijon]

so many discussions of Bloodlines 2 treat the original game as this magnum opus that no game will ever live up too, I played it/ it's fine. like the characters.

but when first released it was a buggy mess of a game that hardcore goth nerds had to spend years fixing because of how buggy it was.

the story was good but having to slog through sewers to get to the last fourth is obnoxious.

I think the reason Bloodlines is so widely praised was because when released story focused RPG games where you had multiple ways of interacting with the world where rare and still are. so I guess it's fine.

I also felt uncomfertble about how much the game was made for a male demographic

 

[shadowdice]

The only part of the Dark Anthologies series that I like, House of Ashes, has a bunch of soldiers in the Middle East fighting ancient vampires woken up due to all the recent bloodshed opening up a temple they were hibernating in

They shohorn in a twist of it being alien parasites but I ignore that in favor of headcanoning that it is a fucked up mesopotamian Nosferatu

Also because we get an Iraqi soldier throwing a giant piece of rebar to stake vampires while his American friend uses fancy guns

 

[Konradleijon]

The only part of the Dark Anthologies series that I like, House of Ashes, has a bunch of soldiers in the Middle East fighting ancient vampires woken up due to all the recent bloodshed opening up a temple they were hibernating in

They shohorn in a twist of it being alien parasites but I ignore that in favor of headcanoning that it is a fucked up mesopotamian Nosferatu

Also because we get an Iraqi soldier throwing a giant piece of rebar to stake vampires while his American friend uses fancy guns

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Yes that alien parasite is just how the characters process vampires.

 

[shadowdice]

Yes that alien parasite is just how the characters process vampires.

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Malkavian with a whiteboard and strings: "Ancient technology from Brujah collaborating with Tzimisce for their wars with other supernaturals was buried underground and moved by Nosferatu elders to survive the flood"

Everyone else: "Why the fuck can Brujah control TIME?"

 

[Ragura]

Character idea: Time-travelling Brujah who everyone mistakes for a Malkavian - who has a ghoul companion and a coffin that is bigger on the inside

 

[Konradleijon]

Malkavian with a whiteboard and strings: "Ancient technology from Brujah collaborating with Tzimisce for their wars with other supernaturals was buried underground and moved by Nosferatu elders to survive the flood"

Everyone else: "Why the fuck can Brujah control TIME?"

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Yes the True Brujah they have Temporis that are time powers. Why do vampires have time powers?

Jojo.

Character idea: Time-travelling Brujah who everyone mistakes for a Malkavian - who has a ghoul companion and a coffin that is bigger on the inside

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That would be awesome. I just imagine a Brujah going throughout history when a Eldar insaulted them only to go back in time and punch them in the nuts when they are like ten in the 1000s

 

[Gereh]

The we abuse people to teach them a very important lesson thing is something from the rewrites not the OG draft so it made it work

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uff... I didn't know that. I only ever heard about the fact that the whole "everything in here is a biased statement from a Beast PoV" was added later, as well as that there were a lot of backlash on certain parts so they supposedly got rewrite to be "tamer". But than again never read the draft so that just stuff I heard.

I think the reason Bloodlines is so widely praised was because when released story focused RPG games where you had multiple ways of interacting with the world where rare and still are. so I guess it's fine.

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It also was peak graphic back then. But yes it also was a buggy mess, I'm not sure if you could ever finish the game because of all the bugs. But let's be real when people talk about bloodlines they don't talk about the later half of the game.

Also part of it' magic was that everything felt lived in and there is so much for you to find and explore in the open sections, which is just impossible to do with the size of (most) modern games.

Just imagine bloodlines game out today with modern graphics (and bug fixed), people would go on about how bad the "small open sections" and how unrealistic they feel, but if you add some more "filler" building in between the important buildings, the magic will be lost. So my personal thesis is: "You can't make a modern bloodline".

 

[Ragura]

Beast got a fan reboot https://www.storytellersvault.com/product/486922/Primordials-The-Beast-ReDreamed
and Kindred of the East as well https://www.storytellersvault.com/product/435620/Kindred-of-the-East-The-Relentless-Age
also one for regular Kindred https://www.storytellersvault.com/product/365369/Kyuuketsuki-The-Fading-Sun

It's all PWYW, so have a taste or three

 

[Konradleijon]

Beast got a fan reboot https://www.storytellersvault.com/product/486922/Primordials-The-Beast-ReDreamed
and Kindred of the East as well https://www.storytellersvault.com/product/435620/Kindred-of-the-East-The-Relentless-Age
also one for regular Kindred https://www.storytellersvault.com/product/365369/Kyuuketsuki-The-Fading-Sun

It's all PWYW, so have a taste or three

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Good thing Story Vault exists so we have an endless river of WW content even if it isn't official.

Paradox can continue to be Paradox.

 

[Daddycool101]

Beast got a fan reboot https://www.storytellersvault.com/product/486922/Primordials-The-Beast-ReDreamed
and Kindred of the East as well https://www.storytellersvault.com/product/435620/Kindred-of-the-East-The-Relentless-Age
also one for regular Kindred https://www.storytellersvault.com/product/365369/Kyuuketsuki-The-Fading-Sun

It's all PWYW, so have a taste or three

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Thanks dude, I already had the kindred of the east book but the remaining two should be useful.

 

[Sinnerlust]

So question I know it's a no but I'm curious on everyone thoughts.

I was playing with the idea of mortals learning disciplines.

Specifically I was curious if Vitae is blood? why can't mortals learn to tap into it?

Chi can be used by mortals not just the kuei-jin so why not Vitae.

This topic came up while talking to a friend of mine about what if a yama king taught demon shintai to a mortal servant since all humans have a po it's just not awake.

This turned into a discussion on what is possible or not. Or if not just the blood but the curse of Cain that makes vitae.

And how chi is different from that.

Thoughts?

 

[Skitzyfrenic]

So, reaching back to Lilith and the botched Awakening of Caine, the short answer is Vitae is, to put poetically, the sanguine essence of power. It's, to put in other, less fancy words, super blood charged with magic.

Lilith shared her (already cursed) blood with (already cursed) Caine and that Awoke him sideways. Instead of a Mage, the curses upon WoD Lilith mixed with the curses of Caine, plus the three extra ones he got during his vision quest, and that made him the First Vampire.

Mortals can learn to use vitae through a very specific method. Ghoulhood. Which is a very bastardized and now metaphysically aligned pseudo-awakening. And metaphysically aligned with how Vitae is passed down and diluted. Generational Ghouls like the Tzmisce do can generate a bit of their own vitae after many generations and special breeding programs. The only other very theoretical, YMMV method is up to your table and the possibility of Thinbloods having actual children post siring.

 

[Maragas]

So question I know it's a no but I'm curious on everyone thoughts.

I was playing with the idea of mortals learning disciplines.

Specifically I was curious if Vitae is blood? why can't mortals learn to tap into it?

Chi can be used by mortals not just the kuei-jin so why not Vitae.

This topic came up while talking to a friend of mine about what if a yama king taught demon shintai to a mortal servant since all humans have a po it's just not awake.

This turned into a discussion on what is possible or not. Or if not just the blood but the curse of Cain that makes vitae.

And how chi is different from that.

Thoughts?

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Several problems with using vitae as a mortal.

A mortal can't generate vitae. They have Blood Points yes, but a vampire consumes blood to generate vitae.
Even if they could somehow use their Blood Point, be it through a Mage talisman/wonder or some other means, a mortal isn't a vampire and they need blood. A mortal can only lose around 2 blood points without going unconscious and any more than 4 is basically requires hospitalization.

To get into more gritty detail, every mortal has 10 dots of primordial energy. Trad Mages call this Quintessence, Crats call it Primal Energy., some call it Chi or Ki.
Mages, unless their paradigm and rote notes it, don't really care about the resonance of this energy but beings like Keui-jin use Yang and Ying aspects of this energy.
Vampires basically suck this energy through blood and turn it into useable form of vitae to sustain themselves and their disciplines.

If you really want to replicate Disciplines as a mortal, I would suggest Alchemy. Though even then it will be less versatile than the original power and limited to 3 dots at most. (Which means you could be a Master Alchemist after decades of research and can only replicate say, Animalism 3.)

 

[Shadow72]

Do the thing that humans always do.

Look at the shining thing they can't have.

Study it.

Create something that does the thing you want.

Slap the original name on it. Who's gonna it's not a Discipline

 

[Ragura]

It's easy - you just need a vampire with a bomb collar

 

[Konradleijon]

So, reaching back to Lilith and the botched Awakening of Caine, the short answer is Vitae is, to put poetically, the sanguine essence of power. It's, to put in other, less fancy words, super blood charged with magic.

Lilith shared her (already cursed) blood with (already cursed) Caine and that Awoke him sideways. Instead of a Mage, the curses upon WoD Lilith mixed with the curses of Caine, plus the three extra ones he got during his vision quest, and that made him the First Vampire.

Mortals can learn to use vitae through a very specific method. Ghoulhood. Which is a very bastardized and now metaphysically aligned pseudo-awakening. And metaphysically aligned with how Vitae is passed down and diluted. Generational Ghouls like the Tzmisce do can generate a bit of their own vitae after many generations and special breeding programs. The only other very theoretical, YMMV method is up to your table and the possibility of Thinbloods having actual children post siring.

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from what I heard Vitae is mana that kindred can extract from blood. that's why human blood straight from the source is more fulfilling. more mana. blood being a part of your soul is a idea in some cultures. so when drinking from something your taking some of their sense of self/

it's worth noting that high level Prime Mages can change Vitae into Essence into Glamour. with some diminishing returns. because its different ideas of the same sort of power

 

[Kalem_Lee]

Ok. I've got Hunter the Vigil and WoD book and like 25 dice.

I just need to speak to my players on backstory and I can craft a story.

 

[Repentant_Dragos]

Ok. I've got Hunter the Vigil

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Congratulations! Hunters have great mechanics, from what I've read.

 

[shadowdice]

Apparently they have released another loosely categorized visual novel for the New York series

The reviews I've seen are generally "I want to punch the woman talking like a marvel movie character whose dialogue options are all sarcastic"

Which seems especially bad when they start out saying you have two options sarcastic ravnos millennial and a Caitiff before going Lol you have to play Ravnos first

Which has very few differences in events according to those who played through twice, which is an issue the first game had as well

 

[Skitzyfrenic]

Oh...

I'm not surprised, tbh. It was always going to happen, especially when they started doing stuff like adding in a random 'Hey, mask! There's a plague about!' scene in Shadows of New York.

I bet it has good music and art though, if it took anything from the previous pseudo VN.

 

[shadowdice]

Oh...

I'm not surprised, tbh. It was always going to happen, especially when they started doing stuff like adding in a random 'Hey, mask! There's a plague about!' scene in Shadows of New York.

I bet it has good music and art though, if it took anything from the previous pseudo VN.

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I'm at the point of being like "do I buy Shadows and the last text game to get any VTM content on or do I just don't bother?"

Especially as I've given up on getting any answers about the events of Coteries of New York

 

[Gereh]

I'm not surprised, tbh. It was always going to happen, especially when they started doing stuff like adding in a random 'Hey, mask! There's a plague about!' scene in Shadows of New York.

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I still don't get why people got so bummed out about that one corona dialogue in shadows

I bet it has good music and art though, if it took anything from the previous pseudo VN.

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From what I've seen they changed up the art style slightly and I don't really like the changes, they are only small but somehow the characters just feel "less". Non of them have that aura they still had in previous games.

Spoiler: Julia

I'm at the point of being like "do I buy Shadows and the last text game to get any VTM content on or do I just don't bother?"

Especially as I've given up on getting any answers about the events of Coteries of New York

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I think "shadows" is worth it, especially since you can probably get it cheap and the art is great the story is good (for something in V5) and Julia the MC is actually a well written character (some people may not like her because there is a lot of political stuff going on, but it makes sense for the character to think a certain way instead of it being forced onto someone where it just doesn't make sense). Overall "Shadows" is my favourite thing coming out of V5, I know that is not a high bar to clear, but still if you get anything V5 you probably should get shadows.

Also which question were left open in Coteries again?