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Esquestria: The House of the Sun - A pony cultist experience

Reader mode
Earth-Destroyer said:
[X] Plan Attack After

We need all the information to ensure we have not wasted the actions.
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We're sending a team OP beyond belief, AND we performed a scrying ritual with a lantern 4 follower.

I think wasting those actions is basically impossible. I'd expect the difference between before and after being equivalent to AT BEST accomplishing an extra objective (let's say 3 instead of 2).

I also expect us to be able to do a follow up next turn though if we're unsatisfied with the results this turn
 
Pittauro said:
I think wasting those actions is basically impossible. I'd expect the difference between before and after being equivalent to AT BEST accomplishing an extra objective (let's say 3 instead of 2).
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Admittedly, 3 vs. 2 objectives is the difference between recovering our Manuscripts and not (in the leading plan). Which, if we then instead have to handle with a follow-up action, is a follower AP and possibly 50+ bits (if it's an expedition) next turn...

Does sorta depend on how the scrying goes. Jade is Lantern 4, but the cult will also have defenses (Last time it was -30, and it might be more now).
 
Talon Tiger Dino said:
Honestly, the "lol, lmao" response to minimizing innocent casualties has me feeling a bit better doing things before rather than after.
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I mean, unless RNG is on their side, even the overwhelming force of demigods wouldn't stop the collateral damage neccessary to destroy a cult with prep time and a demigod, the collateral that destroying a cult with a demigod and prep time and sending them running for the hills would produce.
 
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Do people really care about "minimize innocent/civilian casualties if it doesn't harm other objectives"? I could add it to the Leave No Trace plans if that's the consensus (ideally no one who voted for the plan already strongly objects) and it helps reassure people. But I'm pretty sure the team wasn't planning on massacring innocent civilians willy-nilly anyway (that would definitely break the stealth part of the plan). If added in the "extra" section, I don't think it hurts the plan that much.

Like, suppose one innocent stands between us and getting Neighnia for example? How would people feel about the prioritization? I know it's a dangerous road, but I generally feel that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, and I basically feel the strength of our faction is for the greater good. If not for Velvet, how much worse would things be? What if it were Windy in our horseshoes who met The Wolf Divided? What's a little unhealthy dependence on us in the case of Twilight Sparkle if it lets us watch over them better and better redirect their energies towards saving Equestria? 😈 It really reminds me of how all the arguments against, say, robots with guns/killer robots, are a privilege of peacetime, and how they have completely melted away in a country that's actually at war (Ukraine) [1][2]. Imagine you're a commander who has the choice between preserving the lives of the troops under his command or taking some abstract moral high ground—I would argue a good commander would do almost anything in their power, and then sleep soundly knowing they did.
 
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Steady Gaze said:
Like, suppose one innocent stands between us and getting Neighnia for example? How would people feel about the prioritization? I know it's a dangerous road, but I generally feel that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, and I basically feel the strength of our faction is for the greater good. If not for Velvet, how much worse would things be? What if it were Windy in our horseshoes who met The Wolf Divided? What's a little unhealthy dependence on us in the case of Twilight Sparkle if it lets us watch over them better and better redirect their energies towards saving Equestria? 😈 It really reminds me of how all the arguments against, say, robots with guns/killer robots, are a privilege of peacetime, and how they have completely melted away in a country that's actually at war (Ukraine) [1][2]. Imagine you're a commander who has the choice between preserving the lives of the troops under his command or taking some abstract moral high ground—I would argue a good commander would do almost anything in their power, and then sleep soundly knowing they did.
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I totally agree.

I don't think it gets us much, and if the decision at all impacts the attack's success I think we'll regret it.
 
Rafuki22 said:
Also, and maybe this has been asked before, but why Esquestria instead of Equestria?
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Haven't you heard that the world is wrong? All the Names are screaming it from the hilltops! "Quite disturbing how warped the world is, isn't it?"

(But also, it started as a typo :V That then I think became a somewhat-appreciated part of the quest.)
 
Steady Gaze said:
the strength of our faction is for the greater good
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Steady Gaze said:
a good commander would do almost anything in their power [to preserve the lives of their troops], and then sleep soundly knowing they did
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Related to these thoughts: there's a song from EPIC: The Musical, which is an in-production musical about the journey of Odysseus in Homer's Odyssey, called Monster when Odysseus basically comes to this realization, that his "kindness" to the enemy is actually cruelty to himself and those he loves. I can totally imagine Velvet Covers singing this in this story.

View: https://youtu.be/qYDms9Z-02A

View: https://youtu.be/6oQ3OTTKvgk
EDIT: There's even a pony version (set in someone's alternate universe continuation fanfic)!
View: https://youtu.be/6-zd0YZi1GQ
 
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Steady Gaze said:
Do people really care about "minimize innocent/civilian casualties if it doesn't harm other objectives"? I could add it to the Leave No Trace plans if that's the consensus (ideally no one who voted for the plan already strongly objects) and it helps reassure people. But I'm pretty sure the team wasn't planning on massacring innocent civilians willy-nilly anyway (that would definitely break the stealth part of the plan). If added in the "extra" section, I don't think it hurts the plan that much.

Like, suppose one innocent stands between us and getting Neighnia for example? How would people feel about the prioritization? I know it's a dangerous road, but I generally feel that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, and I basically feel the strength of our faction is for the greater good. If not for Velvet, how much worse would things be? What if it were Windy in our horseshoes who met The Wolf Divided? What's a little unhealthy dependence on us in the case of Twilight Sparkle if it lets us watch over them better and better redirect their energies towards saving Equestria? 😈 It really reminds me of how all the arguments against, say, robots with guns/killer robots, are a privilege of peacetime, and how they have completely melted away in a country that's actually at war (Ukraine) [1][2]. Imagine you're a commander who has the choice between preserving the lives of the troops under his command or taking some abstract moral high ground—I would argue a good commander would do almost anything in their power, and then sleep soundly knowing they did.
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... I see.
You do what you can. What you should. What you must. And as those morals slip and it becomes easier and cleaner you have to hold tighter to what's left. Because it becomes more important. To not fall away entirely.

There's an old phrase. "They will live to hate me, yes. But they will live."

It is... Important to try. To minimize the innocent and civilian casualties. To save who can be saved. To work where work can be done. You become uncompromising. Decisions must be made of what is and is not worth it. Here, alone, we already have made that distinction. The mission, the goal, it is wirth more than the theoretical innocents. But it is important to try.
Because what is the other option? To give up, give in, and let f yourself shrug? To abandon principles wholesale and shout the ends justify the means?

But. If do not see that in light of moral action, then I will show it in numbers and angles and odds and the sharp, mechanical way that seem to want.
Preventing innocent deaths cause less new loose threads. Less people looking in, seeing what happened. Less chance there is need to cover things up. Less chance of the need to lie to our investigators.


So, yes. I would say it's important to try. To still try.

[X] Plan They Have A Winter Name
 
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Steady Gaze said:
Related to these thoughts: there's a song from EPIC: The Musical, which is in-production musical about the journey of Odysseus in Homer's Odyssey, called Monster when Odysseus basically comes to this realization, that his "kindness" to the enemy is actually cruelty to himself and those he loves. I can totally imagine Velvet Covers singing this in this story.

View: https://youtu.be/qYDms9Z-02A

View: https://youtu.be/6oQ3OTTKvgk
EDIT: There's even a pony version (set in someone's alternate universe continuation fanfic)!
View: https://youtu.be/6-zd0YZi1GQ
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...


I love that "musical". lots of great animatics about it too.

and yeah, a big theme of that series of songs is basically "what's the balancing point between "kindness" and "ruthlessness".

The answer, for the most part, seems to be "be ruthless when you have to, kind when you can afford to". Also don't be arrogant and prideful to the point of stupidity.

mh... would our "not breaking Twilight's faith" be the equivalent of Odysseus' hubris in telling Polyphemus his REAL name?

side note: guys, really, watch/listen to Epic the musical.

Link 1: playlist with some of the best animatics.

Link 2: the most recent live stream of the author, with lyrics for everything, a few extra text blurbs giving context, AND some animatics here and there. part 1 and part 2.

My advice is to watch the animatics playlist up to Scylla, THEN switch to the live stream which actually has the best animatics included already for some songs, as the animators collaborated with the author. Also they're the most recent songs so there's been less time for other people to draw more animatics for them.

Sveta08 said:
... I see.
You do what you can. What you should. What you must. And as those morals slip and it becomes easier and cleaner you have to hold tighter to what's left. Because it becomes more important. To not fall away entirely.

There's an old phrase. "They will live to hate me, yes. But they will live."

It is... Important to try. To minimize the innocent and civilian casualties. To save who can be saved. To work where work can be done. You become uncompromising. Decisions must be made of what is and is not worth it. Here, alone, we already have made that distinction. The mission, the goal, it is wirth more than the theoretical innocents. But it is important to try.
Because what is the other option? To give up, give in, and let f yourself shrug? To abandon principles wholesale and shout the ends justify the means?

But. If do not see that in light of moral action, then I will show it in numbers and angles and odds and the sharp, mechanical way that seem to want.
Preventing innocent deaths cause less new loose threads. Less people looking in, seeing what happened. Less chance there is need to cover things up. Less chance of the need to lie to our investigators.


So, yes. I would say it's important to try. To still try.

[X] Plan They Have A Winter Name
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to put it very succinctly: Save who you can. Kill who you must.


 
Pittauro said:
mh... would our "not breaking Twilight's faith" be the equivalent of Odysseus' hubris in telling Polyphemus his REAL name?
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Definitely yes.

Pittauro said:
Also don't be arrogant and prideful to the point of stupidity.
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That's a hard ask my friend.

Pittauro said:
to put it very succinctly: Save who you can. Kill who you must.
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The question is what is most important to Velvet.

For me that's her daughter.
 
Steady Gaze said:
Related to these thoughts: there's a song from EPIC: The Musical, which is an in-production musical about the journey of Odysseus in Homer's Odyssey, called Monster when Odysseus basically comes to this realization, that his "kindness" to the enemy is actually cruelty to himself and those he loves. I can totally imagine Velvet Covers singing this in this story.
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Wow, this is a great song, thanks for sharing. And thank you Pittauro for that amazing playlist, which is going to occupy my next few hours.

The parallels to Velvet do indeed feel very salient.

Pittauro said:
mh... would our "not breaking Twilight's faith" be the equivalent of Odysseus' hubris in telling Polyphemus his REAL name?
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Hubris is definitely Velvet's deadly sin.
 
Shaper47 said:
That's a hard ask my friend.
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eh, I don't think we've been THAT arrogant most of the time.

Our main REAL bad decision (probably) was the Twilight's faith one.

Beside that, probably the how we talked of Twilight with the Master.

I can't think of any other BIG objective mistakes. Maybe not checking on the Master or bringing the Names to the wedding, but I'm not sure that counts.

spiderhellian said:
Wow, this is a great song, thanks for sharing. And thank you Pittauro for that amazing playlist, which is going to occupy my next few hours.

The parallels to Velvet do indeed feel very salient.


Hubris is definitely Velvet's deadly sin.
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As I mentioned there, After Scylla I'd switch from the playlist to the live stream (or just watch the live stream first, and maybe the playlist for a second watch even). God Games is done beautifully in there, and there's very few animatics for songs after that (and most of them aren't that good).

last set of songs came out just a week ago, there's one arc left and we kinda already got pieces of those songs from it (not on that playlist).

as for Hubris being Velvet's sin... probably? Greed might also count, in a way.
 
Sveta08 said:
So, yes. I would say it's important to try. To still try.
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That would be a lot more convincing if we didn't have the memory of our last expedition against Copper.

Pittauro said:
I can't think of any other BIG objective mistakes. Maybe not checking on the Master or bringing the Names to the wedding, but I'm not sure that counts.
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Probably the Wedding choice for checking on Twilight. Bit of sunk-cost fallacy there.

Increasing our friendships or getting 500 bits would have been wiser.

spiderhellian said:
Hubris is definitely Velvet's deadly sin.
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Pittauro said:
as for Hubris being Velvet's sin... probably? Greed might also count, in a way.
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I think that curiosity is Velvet's sin IC.

Hubris is the threads sin.
 
Shaper47 said:
Probably the Wedding choice for checking on Twilight. Bit of sunk-cost fallacy there.

Increasing our friendships or getting 500 bits would have been wiser.
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mh... pragmatically, maybe. Though to be fair we've yet to see the full results of Cadance's action.

We know she went there, we know she at least partly failed, but still Twilight is NOT yet Wolf-tier material, and that might very well be due to that choice.

and, before you say otherwise, I think keeping Twilight out of the wolf-cult is very much a good thing. That not-cult is getting sus, and while they're potentially dangerous NOW that they're mostly "random" ponies following an only partially corrupted Soft Sweeps... Putting Twilight, the element of magic and once-fated-to-become-alicorn under the more direct influence of the Wolf would be extremely worrying.
 
Shaper47 said:
That would be a lot more convincing if we didn't have the memory of our last expedition against Copper.
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The Expedition where the big stumbling block was combat, where Velvet didn't even contribute for 4/5 of the fight, leaving DoA to a 3v1? This time we are bringing:

Biedde
DoA
Mareinette
Luna
The Baldomare.

That is about four times as many combatants as last time, one of which we know completely outclasses DoA, one of which kind of compares, and one of which refuses to let us see her combat stats but seemed to treat a 3v1 as a buffet more than a fight. Honestly I'm more worried about non-combat Hurdles.
 
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