I will become God-Harem King of the World! [Highschool DxD/Exalted] (CLOSED)

[Smuthunter]

I highly doubt we'll ever ignore human morality even if the whole quest outright pushed Issei that way.

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And I highly doubt that you've actually thought about the possibility at all. The Great Curse is insidious and sanity-eroding enough as it is without actively helping it along by deciding human morality doesn't apply to us anymore.

Regardless, ignoring such things as how humans can't even agree on a system of morality for themselves thus making following it rather hard, at last check acknowledging that we really are beyond most humans isn't going to turn Issei into Desus.

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Except Bright and Ddraig aren't just saying we're beyond humans, they're saying we're inherently better than humans and the fact that we have power means we can do whatever we want with it regardless of how much misery we cause for everyone around us. That's straight-up Saturday morning cartoon villain logic.

 

[megrisvernin]

And I highly doubt that you've actually thought about the possibility at all. The Great Curse is insidious and sanity-eroding enough as it is without actively helping it along by deciding human morality doesn't apply to us anymore.

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The Great Curse is our Virtue Flaw right? While I admit a number of them are dangerous, ours at least stops us from hurting people. It makes us seem like an idiot & probably enrages our lover interests but no one gets hurt. Basically...Issei in canon.

Except Bright and Ddraig aren't just saying we're beyond humans, they're saying we're inherently better than humans and the fact that we have power means we can do whatever we want with it regardless of how much misery we cause for everyone around us. That's straight-up Saturday morning cartoon villain logic.

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Basically yeah. Don't disagree with this interpretation.

 

[Malcolmo]

And I highly doubt that you've actually thought about the possibility at all. The Great Curse is insidious and sanity-eroding enough as it is without actively helping it along by deciding human morality doesn't apply to us anymore.

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I have and quite frankly, I find the likelihood of it sufficiently low enough to be fine with it. Besides which, that sort of thing will only happen hundreds/thousands of years down the line, and by that point in time I doubt the quest will still be ongoing. Ignoring that, should we decide that human morality does not apply to us, we can still live by our own personal morals. There was nothing in their speeches about being completely amoral or immoral.

Except Bright and Ddraig aren't just saying we're beyond humans, they're saying we're inherently better than humans and the fact that we have power means we can do whatever we want with it regardless of how much misery we cause for everyone around us. That's straight-up Saturday morning cartoon villain logic.

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Exalts are inherently better then humans. Unless you happen to know of any humans who can do half the shit an exalt can do you don't have much scope for saying we're not better. Again, the word to note is whatever you want, and I doubt we'd manage to push Issei into being monster tier no matter how hard we tried.
Besides, Saturday cartoon villains have a noticeable tendency not to kill all that many people in their quest to take over the world or get all the money or whatever they're doing at the time.

 

[megrisvernin]

I have and quite frankly, I find the likelihood of it sufficiently low enough to be fine with it. Besides which, that sort of thing will only happen hundreds/thousands of years down the line, and by that point in time I doubt the quest will still be ongoing. Ignoring that, should we decide that human morality does not apply to us, we can still live by our own personal morals. There was nothing in their speeches about being completely amoral or immoral.Exalts are inherently better then humans. Unless you happen to know of any humans who can do half the shit an exalt can do you don't have much scope for saying we're not better. Again, the word to note is whatever you want, and I doubt we'd manage to push Issei into being monster tier no matter how hard we tried.
Besides, Saturday cartoon villains have a noticeable tendency not to kill all that many people in their quest to take over the world or get all the money or whatever they're doing at the time.

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I tend to think the Great Curse arguments are a bit overblown, but the thought that this choice will have consequences isn't. Remember that this will effect how Issei makes choices & how he'll respond to challenges & opposing viewpoints.

If we decide to go full SOLAR EXALT I can almost guarantee we'll get into conflict with Rias eventually. Remember she's trying to worm her way into our confidence & deciding our morality is righteousness pretty much ruins most chances of a good relationship with her. First because we become hard(er) to influence & we'll remind her all too much of a number of devils, like that one who wants to marry her. I doubt she'll actively oppose us, her own position is tentative(relative to other devils) & having beaten a fallen angel in combat we're strong enough to be a sufficient threat that she can't deal with us trivially. Us going to the same school & being a student also means that there will be some constraints(on both of us) on the tactics each can use. Romantic paths will be closed & there are some in her pieces that will instinctively respond badly to someone challenging their leader, if subtly & unknowingly.

Whether that's good or bad varies. If people want an INDEPENDENT! Issei then it works. Just seems prudent to comment on that this will strongly flavor Issei's relationships with other characters.

 

[Smuthunter]

The Great Curse is our Virtue Flaw right? While I admit a number of them are dangerous, ours at least stops us from hurting people.

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Guess again. It stops us from hurting one specific person, everyone else is fair game.

There's a famous Solar sorceress by the name of Salina, whose virtue flaw was Unshakable Crusade, a compassion-based limit break like ours is. Her limit used to increase whenever she witnessed injustices, and then when she broke her limit she would become obsessed with righting those wrongs by whatever means were necessary. She's most famous for the Salinan Working, which is a sorcerous pattern she wove into the fabric of Creation that allows anyone to learn sorcery by observing the world around them. Now think about that: with no oversight and no guidance beyond her own will, Salina essentially wrote a new law of physics, and in the process she came perilously close to unraveling all of Creation into the Wyld. Over a crusade for social justice and equal access to magic.

You want to know how our limit break can go horribly horribly wrong? We limit break around one of our enemies and fall head over heels for someone like Raynare, who gives us an order like "Prove your love to me by bringing me the heads of all your other harem girls."

 

[Malcolmo]

I tend to think the Great Curse arguments are a bit overblown, but the thought that this choice will have consequences isn't. Remember that this will effect how Issei makes choices & how he'll respond to challenges & opposing view points.

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I didn't say that this choice was meaningless, only that the "Issei will become baby killing monster" thing was so unlikely to happen it wasn't even funny.

If we decide to go full SOLAR EXALT I can almost guarantee we'll get into conflict with Rias eventually. Remember she's trying to worm her way into our confidence & deciding our morality is righteousness pretty much ruins most chances of a good relationship with her. First because we become hard(er) to influence & we'll remind her all too much of a number of devils, like that one who wants to marry her.

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To be fair, Issei is unlikely to be all that hard to influence for her. And depending on how it turns out, a mixture of living free and thinking our actions are authority and greatness might not result in that bad a relationship with her. Hell, if we help with her freedom (Raizer and his marriage to her) she might actually like us,

Whether that's good or bad varies. If people want an INDEPENDENT! Issei then it works. Just seems prudent to comment on that this will strongly flavor Issei's relationships with other characters.

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We pretty much already started on the independent route when we chose to be a magician attached to the Gremory clan as opposed to a demon in it or anything else.

 

[Malcolmo]

You want to know how our limit break can go horribly horribly wrong? We limit break around one of our enemies and fall head over heels for someone like Raynare, who gives us an order like "Prove your love to me by bringing me the heads of all your other harem girls."

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Pertinent text from the limit break:

Partial Control: The character will not be forced to place himself in danger to gain his love's attention

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He will be incapable of thinking of anything aside from his beloved, probably spending much of his time composing overwrought poetry and the rest stalking the unfortunate person like a love-struck teenager. He may even go so far as to threaten suicide if anyone tries to deny him his love. The character will come to his senses after a number of days equal to his Compassion score, but until then, not even overt scorn or violence from his beloved will dissuade him.

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That doesn't really strike me as the sort of thing Raynare would notice, nor something that can likely be used to kill our friends, because fighting them would put ourselves in danger.

 

[megrisvernin]

Guess again. It stops us from hurting one specific person, everyone else is fair game.

There's a famous Solar sorceress by the name of Salina, whose virtue flaw was Unshakable Crusade, a compassion-based limit break like ours is. Her limit used to increase whenever she witnessed injustices, and then when she broke her limit she would become obsessed with righting those wrongs by whatever means were necessary. She's most famous for the Salinan Working, which is a sorcerous pattern she wove into the fabric of Creation that allows anyone to learn sorcery by observing the world around them. Now think about that: with no oversight and no guidance beyond her own will, Salina essentially wrote a new law of physics, and in the process she came perilously close to unraveling all of Creation into the Wyld. Over a crusade for social justice and equal access to magic.

You want to know how our limit break can go horribly horribly wrong? We limit break around one of our enemies and fall head over heels for someone like Raynare, who gives us an order like "Prove your love to me by bringing me the heads of all your other harem girls."

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Valid point. Falling in love with the wrong girl could cause problems. But I think Malcolmo has a point that we can stop ourselves from placing ourselves in danger.

I didn't say that this choice was meaningless, only that the "Issei will become baby killing monster" thing was so unlikely to happen it wasn't even funny.
To be fair, Issei is unlikely to be all that hard to influence for her. And depending on how it turns out, a mixture of living free and thinking our actions are authority and greatness might not result in that bad a relationship with her. Hell, if we help with her freedom (Raizer and his marriage to her) she might actually like us,
We pretty much already started on the independent route when we chose to be a magician attached to the Gremory clan as opposed to a demon in it or anything else.

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Heh true. Issei isn't the hardest to influence.

 

[Robotninja]

Guess again. It stops us from hurting one specific person, everyone else is fair game.

There's a famous Solar sorceress by the name of Salina, whose virtue flaw was Unshakable Crusade, a compassion-based limit break like ours is. Her limit used to increase whenever she witnessed injustices, and then when she broke her limit she would become obsessed with righting those wrongs by whatever means were necessary. She's most famous for the Salinan Working, which is a sorcerous pattern she wove into the fabric of Creation that allows anyone to learn sorcery by observing the world around them. Now think about that: with no oversight and no guidance beyond her own will, Salina essentially wrote a new law of physics, and in the process she came perilously close to unraveling all of Creation into the Wyld. Over a crusade for social justice and equal access to magic.

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No she didn't. At no point does it ever state that, and you would think they would mention it in her write up in Dreams of the First Age. Second, she did in fact have oversight. She pulled it off by tricking the Deliberative into granting her the authority to do so in bits and pieces. Finally, she had tons of help.

 

[Robotninja]

Except Bright and Ddraig aren't just saying we're beyond humans, they're saying we're inherently better than humans and the fact that we have power means we can do whatever we want with it regardless of how much misery we cause for everyone around us. That's straight-up Saturday morning cartoon villain logic.

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The thing is, that's true. Exalted are in fact, innately better than humans.

 

[megrisvernin]

The thing is, that's true. Exalted are in fact, innately better than humans.

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Better is sort of a loaded term. They have better capacity to succeed at most things some spectacularly moreos. It's up in the air whether having a Solar lead a government results in a better outcome.

 

[Malcolmo]

Better is sort of a loaded term. They have better capacity to succeed at most things some spectacularly moreos. It's up in the air whether having a Solar lead a government results in a better outcome.

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IIRC exalted have charms to help them with that, not to mention the fact that they have ways of increacing dice pool making them better at something even if they've never done it before and all that's before you consider the fact that exalts can live longer then humans and thus gather more experience at the job and life in general.
In short, yeah they would do a better job.

 

[Larekko12]

Better is sort of a loaded term. They have better capacity to succeed at most things some spectacularly moreos. It's up in the air whether having a Solar lead a government results in a better outcome.

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Eh.

The only state where in an Exalt is not better than a human inherently is morality and (given equal information and derivatives) judgement.

 

[Smuthunter]

The thing is, that's true. Exalted are in fact, innately better than humans.

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By what measure? Better at swording things to death, sure. Better at convincing people to do stuff for them, sure. Better at sailing, stealing, killing, writing, learning, all that stuff, sure. But wiser? More morally upright? More worthy of life and happiness? Blatantly false on all counts, or else the Usurpation would never have been necessary.

This is what I'm really trying to get Issei to internalize with my vote; he has the power to make people listen to him. He can, if he so chooses, go into Japanese politics and get elected easily if he invests in socialize charms. But he lacks the wisdom to rule effectively. He can be a king but he'll be a shitty king unless he takes things one step at a time.

IIRC exalted have charms to help them with that, not to mention the fact that they have ways of increacing dice pool making them better at something even if they've never done it before and all that's before you consider the fact that exalts can live longer then humans and thus gather more experience at the job and life in general.
In short, yeah they would do a better job.

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Historically-speaking pretty much every government ever run by a Solar has degenerated into one form of horrible dystopia or another so I'm going to call bullshit on this.

 

[Robotninja]

Historically-speaking pretty much every government ever run by a Solar has degenerated into one form of horrible dystopia or another so I'm going to call bullshit on this.

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Wrong. Whitewall as the first example off the top of my head.

 

[Robotninja]

Better is sort of a loaded term. They have better capacity to succeed at most things some spectacularly moreos. It's up in the air whether having a Solar lead a government results in a better outcome.

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It does. This is canon, and obvious by the fact that they are absurdly more competent than mortals. There is a reason the First Age was prosperous beyond anything Creation ever saw. Solars are in fact really, really good at running stuff.

The whole "hold back from using his power" thing is actually counter to being able to Exalt. In order to Exalt, you need to be the type of person who would use the power rather than sit on it.

As for wisdom, wise Solars are indeed wiser than almost any mortal, just like decadent Solars are more so than any mortal. Comes with being a larger than life figure who lives for aeons.

 

[ReinZero]

It does. This is canon, and obvious by the fact that they are absurdly more competent than mortals. There is a reason the First Age was prosperous beyond anything Creation ever saw. Solars are in fact really, really good at running stuff.

The whole "hold back from using his power" thing is actually counter to being able to Exalt. In order to Exalt, you need to be the type of person who would use the power rather than sit on it.

As for wisdom, wise Solars are indeed wiser than almost any mortal, just like decadent Solars are more so than any mortal. Comes with being a larger than life figure who lives for aeons.

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So basically, they're too competent... to the point where said competence applies to the wrong things (depending on your PoV) subconsciously as well, right?

 

[megrisvernin]

It seems like the Solars worked initially. First Age Prosperity and all that, but as time went on & the Great Curse Traits become exaggerated(I heard it gets worse with age) & their lifespans became many multiples that of mortals(as well as boredom) they became disconnected & isolated from those which they ruled.

 

[Smuthunter]

As for wisdom, wise Solars are indeed wiser than almost any mortal

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Completely and utterly false. Wisdom is not something that can be gotten from charms or Exaltation. Knowledge perhaps, but not wisdom. The developers came out and said on the Onyx Path forums that the history of Creation is essentially a parable about the dangers of wielding power without wisdom -- first by the Primordials, next by the Solars, and now by the Dragonbloods.

 

[Robotninja]

No, it is a character trait. Solars have character traits that are far in excess of a standard person. So one that is wise would in fact be wiser than almost any mortal.

 

[megrisvernin]

Completely and utterly false. Wisdom is not something that can be gotten from charms or Exaltation. Knowledge perhaps, but not wisdom. The developers came out and said on the Onyx Path forums that the history of Creation is essentially a parable about the dangers of wielding power without wisdom -- first by the Primordials, next by the Solars, and now by the Dragonbloods.

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I can't help but feel that while this debate has been informative people haven't voted for a while. I'd rather not clutter up the thread anymore with discussions about Solars in the First Age making Alexander think there's still voting going on.

 

[Alexander]

Bonus successes are the extra successes you get beating a DV that are added to damage.

Say I roll 8 successes over a DV of 5. That's more than I needed and the extra successes are added to the damage roll.

Also, the reason there aren't any Charms in Fist of the Daystar to improve your chance to hit is because it is assumed you'll have already picked up a Martial Arts Excellency and be using that to improve hit chance while using the Fist of the Daystar Charms to increase damage.

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Excellencies. I always forget about them. Even when they are always so useful.

So basically, they're too competent... to the point where said competence applies to the wrong things (depending on your PoV) subconsciously as well, right?

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Yeah. Or, more simply, what they think is best for them isn't so for other people. Law of nature.

Votes closed. Winner is:

[X] You don't know
- "That sounds awesome, but I still feel like a normal kid when I'm not doing all this kung-fu stuff. If I'm some kind of dragon king then I'm a really stupid king who only knows how to punch things and throw fireballs."
[X] Just knock out all of them.

Rolling:
[blockquote]Rolled 5d10 : 9, 7, 10, 9, 6, total 41[/blockquote]

[blockquote]Rolled 2d10 : 9, 5, total 14[/blockquote]

Writing...

 

[Smuthunter]

No, it is a character trait. Solars have character traits that are far in excess of a standard person. So one that is wise would in fact be wiser than almost any mortal.

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Wrong. Virtues are also a character trait but everything in the setting is capped at five dots in any of their virtues. And while we're at it, point out to me where exactly on the Solar character sheet is the "wisdom" stat, or for that matter anything else that lets a player say "see, I'm too enlightened to make mistakes." You can't because there isn't one.

 

[Heaven Canceler]

If I heard correctly, then the Solars are very well capable of leading nations and worlds with greater Efficiency, wisdom and skill then any mortal man. The Problem is not in their lack of ability, but the fact that many Solars in the First Age just didn't care enough. They didn't ruin nations because they were bad at economics, but for shit and giggles. At least if I understand it right.

 

[Malcolmo]

But wiser? More morally upright? More worthy of life and happiness? Blatantly false on all counts, or else the Usurpation would never have been necessary.

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Define morally upright please. Also explain how you judge worthiness of life and happiness as well as why the Sidereals of all people are supposed to be the finer judges of that.
Ignoring that, Usurpation happened because the Solars were going insane due to their curse and boredom of having lived so long with nothing interesting happening. The former isn't happening any time soon and the latter is so unlikely it's not even funny.

 

[Alexander]

[X] You don't know

Power? Greatness?

'That sounds awesome,-' And it is. 'but I still feel like a normal kid when I'm not doing all this kung-fu stuff.'

Yes. You have a Longinus and Ignis Divine chose you, but before that you were just a normal kid. Your life has changed quickly, but you has yet to do it.

'If I'm some kind of dragon king then I'm a really stupid king who only knows how to punch things and throw fireballs.'

[Dragon Emperor.] Ddraig clarifies. [You are indeed still young partner, but you still have the potential to be the very best.]

[The dragon is right.] Bright-sensei says. [You aren't fit to be a king.]

You and Ddraig both sweatdrop.

[But you will be. Every Solar starts great, but no-one starts Great. Wisdom is also recognizing your own shortcoming. To temper your own passions, it is indeed where the Virtue of Temperance shines.]

Temperance: O -> OO

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[I didn't expect this to be the first, but you did surprisingly well for a newborn. The Trial of Humility...you pass.]

'What? Trail of Humility? What are you talking about?'

[The answer is for another time.]

She doesn't say anymore on the subject.

[X] Just knock out all of them.

You doubt that as they're now words will connect to their brains. So you will proceed to employ the most universal of languages.

Your fists.

You raise your foot from Lead Goon's hand and then lower it again.

On his skull.

You sprint forwards, your legs carrying you at the speed of a Olympic athlete, and reach the first thug that you met. Your foot lashes out, hitting him in the stomach and driving out all air from his lungs.

You repeat it twice and he drops like a sack of potato.

You look at those still standing, your face like a mask of stone. "Don't worry: next is your turn."

Apparently they were the magic words because they just run away, one even smashing through a window because it's closer than the door.

You look at the customers and the barman, who are looking at you in disbelief and awe.

"Who want to bet that in their pockets there is enough money to cover all damage bills?" You point to the downed thugs and smirk.

There is.

----

"Thank you boy." The barman says as you help him stopping the bleeding on his head. "But I fear you get yourself into trouble."

"I knew the possible consequences before entering here." You reply as you tighten the bandage. "Now, mind telling me what this was all about?"

He sighs. "As you probably guessed people like myself pay for protection to the local gang. It was like this for a long time and I doubt it's going to cease anytime soon."

Not if you can do something about that.

"Myself, I pay my due to the 'Snake'. The members of Snake are at odds with a gang from another district, the 'Black Hand', and another one I don't know the name. I made an accord with the Snake's leader: as long as I pay regularly I can do what I what. But it seems the idiot-" He scoffs and looks at Lead Goon, who is being drag away by Goon 1 and 2. "thought it was something to be rectified."

"Uhm..." You cross your arms. "Old man, how would you like the problem to be resolved...permanently?"

He looks at you sharply. "Don't even think about it boy. You are strong, but Snake himself is a different story. He's a mass of muscles even higher than me."

"Size isn't all that matter." You reply confidently. "But I promise to be careful."

As you leave the bar you reflect on what you said. Sure stopping Snake sounds all well and good, but you doubt defeating the leader is all that is needed.

[] Continue. Investigate more about this Snake.
[] Leave it be. Concentrate on the Fallen Angels.
[] Write-in.

"Found you!" You hear a cheerful voice say as you walk. You turn.

You recognize her: she's the girl that you met on the rooftop. She's younger than you, one or two years, with black hair lightly red-streaked and captivating silver eyes, wearing a black blouse and a skirt with red trimmings.

Wow. You didn't realize it before, but she's cute. Almost criminally so.

"Me?" Your point at yourself.

"Yes! You were all like-- Hooowaaah! Witchaaaa!"

[embed=425,349]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sGiE10zNQM&feature=player_detailpage#t=466[/embed]
(watch from 7:45)

She proceeds to make some karate-style poses and noises.

As strange as it sounds, you feel the urge to smack her in the head and show her the correct stance.

She points at you. "You have superpowers!" She declares it like someone would say that the Sun rose from the East and there are stars on the night sky.

And you have yet to learn the memories cancelling spell.

Uh oh.

[] Run away.
[] Convince her she's wrong.
[] Admit it.
[] Write-in.

 

[John At Dawn]

[X] Leave it be. Concentrate on the Fallen Angels.

[X] Run away.

Do NOT involve the mortal!

 

[megrisvernin]

[X] Write-in. Monitor them for now. See what you can learn about them without raising your profile higher or intruding on their turf. It'd be a mistake to focus on them & be blindsided to a Fallen Angel attack, but while they may not be a threat to you they don't need supernatural powers to hurt your family.

[X] Look around as if confirming no one else is looking. Cup your hand to the side & speak in a low conspiratorial voice as if you are admitting a great secret,"I do. But this isn't something we should discuss so openly. Is there somewhere else we can continue this discussion, someone more private? A restaurant perhaps?"

Harem Get!

 

[Selias]

[X] Continue. Investigate more about this Snake.

[X] Change the subject in a completely obvious manner.

 

[Mu-Sensei]

[X] megrisvernin