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Rule 8. Politics. Gone. For good.

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justinkal said:
See, that's what was nice about talking about it here. The political scene of places like SV is a complete clusterfuck. Here you could actually have casual conversation about it despite a wide variety of views being expressed.
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Because I don't want to argue politics. I want to read and write porn.

Just like I want to write kickass action stories on SB, but once you get pulled into the political shit you need to literally limit your visiting time there in order to not get pulled in.
 
Why not create an irc channel then and make the Rule 8 haters govern themselves?

The Eighters?
 
UrsaTempest said:
Mods' report works says otherwise.
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The mod work is what kept it tolerable here. Places like SV, the mods let their own political views cloud their moderation, which shifts things towards a specific side of the political spectrum.

These past few months have been a political clusterfuck everywhere. It was much less so here than most places.
 
Snake/Eater said:
Is there a limit to how vague we can be or is this the only example?
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I'd prefer that people simply tried not to toe the line on this one, because if something was recognizable as current events politics, they'd get in trouble and maybe even ruin a running quest/story. And nobody wants a quest or story to end, you know?
 
tehelgee said:
I'd prefer that people simply tried not to toe the line on this one, because if something was recognizable as current events politics, they'd get in trouble and maybe even ruin a running quest/story. And nobody wants a quest or story to end, you know?
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But what if the original inspiration for the story was current events? That's extremely common in fiction, and your response implies that such stories are simply not welcome here any more, even if they're not aimed at actually causing an argument.

I know that personally, my political opinions will likely colour any story I write, even if I try not to. Whilst I think getting rid of political discussion makes sense given how those threads went, I don't think trying to ban fiction does. Even stories with an obvious political basis can still be fun to read.
 
Cherry Lover said:
But what if the original inspiration for the story was current events? That's extremely common in fiction, and your response implies that such stories are simply not welcome here any more, even if they're not aimed at actually causing an argument.

I know that personally, my political opinions will likely colour any story I write, even if I try not to. Whilst I think getting rid of political discussion makes sense given how those threads went, I don't think trying to ban fiction does. Even stories with an obvious political basis can still be fun to read.
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Well, you can always publish those on SB/SV...

... I mean, you probably want to do that anyway because you'll get better viewccount there.
 
And what if I wanted to ask for aa source for a doujin that contains political stuff?
Like that one doujin that had Trump as a Kawaii-Uguu Animu Loli?
 
Yeah, the fact that there are actual anime and manga series which use real-world politics as a base makes this very difficult to enforce. No discussion makes sense, I think trying to apply it to fics is only going to cause hassle in the opposite direction.
 
Cherry Lover said:
But what if the original inspiration for the story was current events? That's extremely common in fiction, and your response implies that such stories are simply not welcome here any more, even if they're not aimed at actually causing an argument.

I know that personally, my political opinions will likely colour any story I write, even if I try not to. Whilst I think getting rid of political discussion makes sense given how those threads went, I don't think trying to ban fiction does. Even stories with an obvious political basis can still be fun to read.
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Look, if it gotta do it, can you assure us it will not goad people into a left versus right fight? Because if some try to start a fight, we can stop those. If the story baited them, that is an issue. If it wasn't about baiting, fair enough.

Because the main issue is the shitstorms that happened. We're sick of those. I mean, there's a quest on SV that do an alternate 2016 elections and players help out a republican. Trump is talked about, there are comments but it still doesn't go into the shitstorm levels we had here.

Here, I'll even link you to it.

If we had the people in there in the politics thread, maybe last night would not have happened.
 
Cherry Lover said:
The problem is that the presumption seems to be towards "you shouldn't post if you're not sure", rather than where it should be, which is "it's fine unless you're obviously just trying to circumvent the 'no discussion' rule".
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There's no presumption, unless you chose not to read. It's very clearly stated to ASK if you're not sure. Not decide your understanding of the rule is the only way to interpret it.

Mike, really, doing this incessant nitpicking shit is what got you banned from Beast's Lair.
 
Megaolix said:
Look, if it gotta do it, can you assure us it will not goad people into a left versus right fight? Because if some try to start a fight, we can stop those. If the story baited them, that is an issue. If it wasn't about baiting, fair enough.
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Well, yeah, I get your point. I think it's unlikely to cause fights in most cases, though, and if it does then I guess the response should be the same as it would be to a fight caused by a fic which bashes certain characters. I.e., "in this context, they're characters in a story, if you don't like the story then just don't read it".

Because the main issue is the shitstorms that happened. We're sick of those. I mean, there's a quest on SV that do an alternate 2016 elections and players help out a republican. Trump is talked about, there are comments but it still doesn't go into the shitstorm levels we had here.

Here, I'll even link you to it.

If we had the people in there in the politics thread, maybe last night would not have happened.
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There's a difference, though, between a discussion thread for politics and a quest about politics. The former is clearly for discussion of politics, people are obviously going to discuss politics in whatever manner they see fit. The latter is not for discussion of politics and, as such, people are more likely to back off if it becomes heated. And if they don't, then, yes, moderation is necessary, but those threads are likely to be rare. People are not going to be regularly making political fics, and if they do, discussion of politics in them will be less common.

tehelgee said:
Mike, really, doing this incessant nitpicking shit is what got you banned from Beast's Lair.
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No, what got me banned from BL is the fact that Altima is an asshole.

And, I'm not the only one interpreting it this way. Several other people seem to be thinking along the same lines. Which suggests that it's not solely a case of me being overly-paranoid....
 
Come on y'all... The mods have made it clear that they don't want any more political arguments on the forum. Trying to get around the letter of the rule, to break the spirit of it, is only going to piss them off.

tehelgee said:
Mike, really, doing this incessant nitpicking shit is what got you banned from Beast's Lair.
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Cherry's Mike? As in the Sakura obsessed guy? Huh, you learn something new everyday.
 
Tea said:
Come on y'all... The mods have made it clear that they don't want any more political arguments on the forum. Trying to get around the letter of the rule, to break the spirit of it, is only going to piss them off.
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Yes, but that's not the point. I'm not in any way endorsing anyone who tries to get around the "no discussion" rule by writing a fic that is designed to serve as a discussion thread. I'm talking about people who write good-faith fics which happen to contain political content.

That's particularly a problem because, like it or not, Trump is the President. As such, for the next four years (barring some extreme event), he will be at the centre of world events. So, stories set in the modern era (and quite possibly some actual anime or manga) will quite naturally have him as a person who exists and does things. I really, really don't like the idea of having to re-write a story to avoid referring to such events or to Trump himself solely in order that I can make it fit within the rules of this site, and I suspect that's true of quite a lot of other people too. Further, in order to be consistent, it has to ban all other real-world political analogies, which rules out a whole lot of other things as well.

Ultimately, if the choice is between "rewrite" or "post somewhere else", I will do the latter. I suspect many others will also. Which is not what the site is supposed to be about, as far as I can tell. Sure, political discussion can safely be cut out, but restricting stories based around it is a far more thorny issue because, like it or not, politics matters and, as such, many, many authors refer to it in some manner.

Cherry's Mike? As in the Sakura obsessed guy? Huh, you learn something new everyday.
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The clue is in the username :p

Also, the avatar is the same, lol. Or you can just look at where I post, pretty much.
 
tehelgee said:
There's no presumption, unless you chose not to read. It's very clearly stated to ASK if you're not sure. Not decide your understanding of the rule is the only way to interpret it.

Mike, really, doing this incessant nitpicking shit is what got you banned from Beast's Lair.
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Ah, gotcha.
Was a little unsure, so if any of us feel like we might thread dangerous waters, contact you or the other mods first, yes?

Okay, now it makes sense.
 
justinkal said:
We need somewhere that politics can be discussed in which everyone is united around something that's completely unrelated to politics. That's what kept discussion more civil than it is elsewhere.
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As far as i understand, QQ used to be this until what was apparently a dozen or less of particularly persistent trolls [EDIT: looking it up, perhaps as few as two] robbed everyone from the opportunity. (Which is presumably the point being made here.)
That said, I hereby invite anyone formerly of QQ who wants to discuss politics politely (hey, are those words related? would be cool if they were) towards the OTT, 12MC, and Language Hat (choose whichever one of those is closest to your hobbies; I'd have added AH.com and CCF too, but those guys have way too much politics already). I especially recommend 12MC in particular for their polite discussion of the ongoing war between Bibb County and Macon County (Might have misspelled the latter.)

More on-topic, I'm somewhat worried that something like this post would now be forbidden (and I'm not very sure that I'd be able to hold myself from responding to jokes like this).
Also, I'd rather have the opportunity to have a scene in a SI fic where the protagonist discusses the differences between the political situations in their original world and in the setting they entered (up to and including "funny, the president here is [whoever the local president is], not Trump... meh, never liked him anyway").

[EDIT 2: and please, do not make any kind of strict rules to post in General - that's where the Vote Thread for Ack's Omake Corner is, and I can't see how it can have any other reasonable place either. I guess it could go to CW Index maybe?]
 
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january1may said:
More on-topic, I'm somewhat worried that something like this post would now be forbidden (and I'm not very sure that I'd be able to hold myself from responding to jokes like this).
Also, I'd rather have the opportunity to have a scene in a SI fic where the protagonist discusses the differences between the political situations in their original world and in the setting they entered (up to and including "funny, the president here is [whoever the local president is], not Trump... meh, never liked him anyway").
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The idea of the rule is to stop people's politics buttons from being pressed, and your examples are doing just that.
 
tehelgee said:
The idea of the rule is to stop people's politics buttons from being pressed, and your examples are doing just that.
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I don't see why this is should be the goal, though, honestly.

There are plenty of other things people can post which will wind others up. If someone posts a fic where Shirou brutally murders Sakura, I'm not gonna be happy about it. But, you're not going to just let me demand that the fic be deleted just because I don't like it and find it extremely distasteful. I don't see why the same cannot be applied to politics as well. If you don't like the way someone's fic is inclined politically, just leave it well alone, don't come in and start trying to argue how their political philosophy is obviously bollocks.

The rule as it is currently written does seem extremely broad. A lot of things could fall foul of it that are not even intended to be political. For example, I've seen plenty of fics on here that could be arguably called "misogynist". Personally, I don't care, but there are plenty of people who would, and that, to me, would fall under the "no SJW-related stuff" rule.

I'm not saying you're intending to moderate it like that (I sure as hell hope you're not), I just feel that restricting what people can write into a fic is a bad idea, as in, potentially site-destroyingly bad. The whole point is that people should feel comfortable to post their fics here without worry, if they feel obliged to go and ask a moderator or to cut out incidental parts of the story because they happen to involve politics (as the second example does), they're likely to want to leave and go elsewhere.
 
tehelgee said:
The idea of the rule is to stop people's politics buttons from being pressed, and your examples are doing just that.
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Both of them? That's unfortunate, because as far as I see it, the second one is just a part of storytelling, and the first one was a very reasonable joke (that even actually made sense in context).
Approximately, how close can I get to those? If my Worm fic gets to a point where I need to mention the US president, do I need to go to pains to avoid them being any similar to any real-life candidate, even if that results in a platform that makes completely no sense?

I hate political discussions, and hardly ever participated in them even on AH.com, where they were commonplace. It would be quite overblown to be unable to mention politics (or, at least, modern real-life politicians) at all, however.
 
january1may said:
If my Worm fic gets to a point where I need to mention the US president, do I need to go to pains to avoid them being any similar to any real-life candidate, even if that results in a platform that makes completely no sense?
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Yeah, this is the thing which really, really bothers me. Suppose I start writing a fic that has nothing to do with politics and, five chapters in, the direction of discussion naturally heads towards politics, do I have to either have the characters act unnaturally or delete the fic from the forum? That sort of thing makes me very wary of even posting something in the first place.

The Ero-Sennin said:
This is becoming absurd. I don't think anyone is going to write a story about politics and get banned Anyone who turns the story into a screaming match about politics will.

Is this distinction difficult?
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This isn't the impression I've got from talking to the mods, though (well, except that I don't expect anyone to be banned for it, just told to edit or remove the story). If that is the case, then they can stop this discussion right now by confirming it, because that's the only issue I have with it.
 
What about a compromise then, why not a special job for a mod be created for readers to beta stories that that might cause concern?
 
Cherry Lover said:
I don't see why this is should be the goal, though, honestly.
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Why? Because politics are divisive as hell and people lose their heads over it far more than any other topic.

There are plenty of other things people can post which will wind others up. If someone posts a fic where Shirou brutally murders Sakura, I'm not gonna be happy about it. But, you're not going to just let me demand that the fic be deleted just because I don't like it and find it extremely distasteful.
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You're right that we wouldn't let you, but don't lie, Mike. You be doing it in a heartbeat if you could.

I don't see why the same cannot be applied to politics as well. If you don't like the way someone's fic is inclined politically, just leave it well alone, don't come in and start trying to argue how their political philosophy is obviously bollocks.
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This isn't about us making a political value judgment. We're not protecting or condemning one side or the other. We're booting the entire subject, regardless of side.

The rule as it is currently written does seem extremely broad. A lot of things could fall foul of it that are not even intended to be political. For example, I've seen plenty of fics on here that could be arguably called "misogynist". Personally, I don't care, but there are plenty of people who would, and that, to me, would fall under the "no SJW discussion" rule.
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If someone writes a story that appears to hate on one gender or treats them like shit, and it pushes your buttons... walk away. Don't read it, don't go preaching about why it's all that's wrong with the world. While the existence of genders and sex and such are inescapable, arguing over misogyny/androgyny/feminism/men's rights IS escapable by simply not doing it.

I'm not saying you're intending to moderate it like that (I sure as hell hope you're not), I just feel that restricting what people can write into a fic is a bad idea, as in, potentially site-destroyingly bad. The whole point is that people should feel comfortable to post their fics here without worry, if they feel obliged to go and ask a moderator or to cut out incidental parts of the story because they happen to involve politics (as the second example does), they're likely to want to leave and go elsewhere.
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If they feel a need to write current politics into a story simply because it's been forbidden... then, they're likely to do that with anything.

And if a story or quest starts going in the direction of current political situations... don't let it go that direction, yeah? It's not trying to turn aside the ocean. A QM has the right to say no, that will get us in trouble, choose something else.
 
Cherry Lover said:
Yeah, this is the thing which really, really bothers me. Suppose I start writing a fic that has nothing to do with politics and, five chapters in, the direction of discussion naturally heads towards politics, do I have to either have the characters act unnaturally or delete the fic from the forum? That sort of thing makes me very wary of even posting something in the first place.



This isn't the impression I've got from talking to the mods, though (well, except that I don't expect anyone to be banned for it, just told to edit or remove the story). If that is the case, then they can stop this discussion right now by confirming it, because that's the only issue I have with it.
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Don't be stupid and use your damn brain.
 
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