Star Wars! Spoilers Allowed So Beware!

[Fenrir]

Of course they killed off Han, how do you think they got Ford to sign on in the first place? Dude has been wanting Han to get killed off since Empire.

 

[Smuthunter]

Of course they killed off Han, how do you think they got Ford to sign on in the first place? Dude has been wanting Han to get killed off since Empire.

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Well they also kinda needed to kill him off at some point. I mean he might not look it but you have to remember that Harrison Ford is 74 years old, they couldn't keep Han around too much longer no matter what they did. Can you imagine them being in the middle of the next movie with Han as a major character and then suddenly Ford just keels over and dies of a stroke or something?

So, yeah, it wasn't a surprise by any measure that Han got killed off. That doesn't mean it didn't hurt like a bitch though.

 

[Fenrir]

Well they also kinda needed to kill him off at some point. I mean he might not look it but you have to remember that Harrison Ford is 74 years old, they couldn't keep Han around too much longer no matter what they did. Can you imagine them being in the middle of the next movie with Han as a major character and then suddenly Ford just keels over and dies of a stroke or something?

So, yeah, it wasn't a surprise by any measure that Han got killed off. That doesn't mean it didn't hurt like a bitch though.

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True, and he got pretty badly hurt during the movie's production. So did Abrams.

 

[snthsnth]

For me the issue with both is the director. JJAbrams style of film making is fine for small locations, but he's got no sense of scale. He also doesn't care about the technical limitations of the universes he works in, or the skill limits of the characters he creates.

In the prequels Lucas was seduced by the Special Effects side of the Film, and abandoned the Story side. I think however that this would have been the case in Hope, as I've heard from many that his original cut was incomprehensible, and was recut into what we think of as Lucas's Hope.

In my opinion, the prequel trilogy benefits from a new (to Star Wars) story that keeps the EU mostly intact, while TFA benefits from better pacing and visuals.

 

[Dakkaface]

It isn't, once again, prequels were better and throwing a fit because someone disagree with you won't make you right.

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If you're not willing to debate the point in any capacity and dismiss any argument with 'no I'm right' then I'm as free to dismiss your view as you have been of mine.

Is there any point to posting "concession accepted" other than sounding completely arrogant?

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Mostly to mirror his post because that's essentially what he's saying. 'Your arguments don't matter, I'm right.'

 

[aja318]

If you're not willing to debate the point in any capacity and dismiss any argument with 'no I'm right' then I'm as free to dismiss your view as you have been of mine.

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Your whole argument boil down to "I don't like prequels so everything that isn't them is good" then act as if new movie had good writing, good acting (aside from actors from old movies).
Force Awaken is like straight for DVD movie that was made for some TV series not movie that can stand on it's own. So I will go with movies that aren't shit tier fanfiction in writing and don't try to bury me in things from better movies.

You dragged rant from rant forum and start challenging me to not tell you how better movies are better.

Also feel free to disagree, ignore my opinions and so on, but don't put things into my mouth or act as if I was conceding point to you when I didn't.

 

[Sapphite]

new movie had good writing, good acting (aside from actors from old movies).
Force Awaken is like straight for DVD movie that was made for some TV series not movie that can stand on it's own.

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You are just absolutely full of garbage. Everything you posted in the Rants forum was either fictitious bitching that had no grounding in reality, or whining that the movie wasn't based of the EU. Now you're going off the deep end because people don't agree with you.

If you didn't like The Force Awakens, that's fine. You don't have to like it. There are numerous movies I don't like that were otherwise popular. But don't make up a bunch of nonsense to try and invent a reason for you to dislike the movie.

 

[Dakkaface]

Your whole argument boil down to "I don't like prequels so everything that isn't them is good" then act as if new movie had good writing, good acting (aside from actors from old movies).
Force Awaken is like straight for DVD movie that was made for some TV series not movie that can stand on it's own. So I will go with movies that aren't shit tier fanfiction in writing and don't try to bury me in things from better movies.

You dragged rant from rant forum and start challenging me to not tell you how better movies are better.

Also feel free to disagree, ignore my opinions and so on, but don't put things into my mouth or act as if I was conceding point to you when I didn't.

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You're clearly not reading my posts in any depth if that's your summation of my position. I'm not telling you 'You're wrong, Force Awakens was a great movie.' I'm saying, 'However you want to to think of Force Awakens, the prequels were worse.' The writing was merely mediocre in VII instead of terrible. The acting was actually fairly good instead of stilted and wooden.

Ep VII is somewhat divisive and isn't the highest quality of movies - I dislike JJ Abrams as a director and I think there are a great many improvements that could have been made to Ep VII. I don't think it's good, I think it's passable, which the prequels were not. You're absolutely right in one aspect - I don't think Force Awakens can stand on it's own. It leaves too much hanging and unaddressed, making me wonder how many issues that I have with the movie are actual missteps and how many issues are just threads left dangling for the next movie to pick up. It's not a movie can be viewed standalone the way that A New Hope can, but then Empire Strikes Back can't be viewed in isolation either. There's a certain amount of judgment I'm willing to withhold based on it being the first of a trilogy.

The Rants forum doesn't exempt you from criticism or debate of your position, it merely gives you a place where the rules for civility are more relaxed.

If you didn't want to debate the point you could have simply said so. A simple, 'I don't want to debate this, that's just how I feel.' would have been enough. Hell, even a fucking The Dude image macro. Instead you doubled down on your position and repeatedly (and continue to) exclaim that 'you're wrong, VII worse, prequels better' with little to no elaboration. It's on the level of 'Nuh UH!' as a response.

And finally, if you're going to stick your fingers in your ears and shout 'lalala can't hear you!' in lieu of defending your position when challenged on it, that's as good as conceding.

 

[BlackHadou]

The writing was merely mediocre in VII instead of terrible

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I kinda disagree with this. The writing in the Prequels is bad, because it tries to tell a story bigger then a trilogy. The writing in The Force Awakens is bad for other reasons, and most of them aren't related to scale, but the huge cases of "Monkey See Monkey Do" that have no real foreshadowing (or in the case of the Lightsaber, even worse, faux foreshadowing). There's also some major issues with what may have been left on the cutting room floor, but that's a editing issue.

To a certain extent, both of them are hugely hindered by the fact that their writers are dubiously competent, and their directors aren't a huge amount better. The Prequels are just easier to call worse because both writer and director were the same man, so it's easy to pin down where the flaws came in.

The acting was actually fairly good instead of stilted and wooden.

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Well, we can agree on this. Poor Ewan McGregor.

 

[Dakkaface]

I kinda disagree with this. The writing in the Prequels is bad, because it tries to tell a story bigger then a trilogy. The writing in The Force Awakens is bad for other reasons, and most of them aren't related to scale, but the huge cases of "Monkey See Monkey Do" that have no real foreshadowing (or in the case of the Lightsaber, even worse, faux foreshadowing). There's also some major issues with what may have been left on the cutting room floor, but that's a editing issue.

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See, the failures in Force Awakens' writing are failures of story - there's points where you just go 'How can he do that?' 'How is she able to do that now?' 'Why is that there?' and 'Why is he there?' Some of them are dangling threads that may be picked up in the next movie so I'm not pouncing on them, but a number are still story failures and underutilized characters.

On the other hand, while the prequels did try to tell a story bigger than the trilogy was able to, it's writing failures were manifold. It has story failures as well. Why are they attempting to lock guys in a room when they have laser swords, and KNOW they have them? Why is he here? Why is that city here? Why do we care what happens to her? Why is he doing that instead of just killing him? Why are we using Darth Vader as a little boy? Why do we care about him at this age?

In addition to trying to tell a story to big for it, it also constantly wastes precious runtime on stupid shit. Some of the really expansive action sequences in Ep 1 are especially unnecessary. Podracing is a cool concept. It's also a huge time sink and it's only purpose was to set up a video game and sell some toys, while lending nothing to the story. Similarly the space battle and the sub sequence. Rocket-powered R2. Many of the battle scenes in RotS.

The dialogue throughout the prequels is atrocious. Props to the actors for doing what they could, but a great many lines are turds that even they can't do anything for - there's no way to make the 'I hate sand' speech any better via delivery.

The sheer amount of story changed Lucas made in post didn't help either - every one of the prequels was half baked during filming and he made a number of digital edits and story changes during editing, because constant revisionism is now a special Lucas attribute.

Well, we can agree on this. Poor Ewan McGregor.

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Hell of a waste of a first-class actor there.

 

[aja318]

You are just absolutely full of garbage. Everything you posted in the Rants forum was either fictitious bitching that had no grounding in reality, or whining that the movie was based of the EU. Now you're going off the deep end because people don't agree with you.

If you didn't like The Force Awakens, that's fine. You don't have to like it. There are numerous movies I don't like that were otherwise popular. But don't make up a bunch of nonsense to try and invent a reason for you to dislike the movie.

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1. What? Like really what? I think you are missing something in that sentence or can't read.
2. It's movie that constantly make references to better ones that came before it, that rely on them to be anything but incoherent mess. Reference to something better the movie.

You're clearly not reading my posts in any depth if that's your summation of my position. I'm not telling you 'You're wrong, Force Awakens was a great movie.' I'm saying, 'However you want to to think of Force Awakens, the prequels were worse.' The writing was merely mediocre in VII instead of terrible. The acting was actually fairly good instead of stilted and wooden.

Ep VII is somewhat divisive and isn't the highest quality of movies - I dislike JJ Abrams as a director and I think there are a great many improvements that could have been made to Ep VII. I don't think it's good, I think it's passable, which the prequels were not. You're absolutely right in one aspect - I don't think Force Awakens can stand on it's own. It leaves too much hanging and unaddressed, making me wonder how many issues that I have with the movie are actual missteps and how many issues are just threads left dangling for the next movie to pick up. It's not a movie can be viewed standalone the way that A New Hope can, but then Empire Strikes Back can't be viewed in isolation either. There's a certain amount of judgment I'm willing to withhold based on it being the first of a trilogy.

The Rants forum doesn't exempt you from criticism or debate of your position, it merely gives you a place where the rules for civility are more relaxed.

If you didn't want to debate the point you could have simply said so. A simple, 'I don't want to debate this, that's just how I feel.' would have been enough. Hell, even a fucking The Dude image macro. Instead you doubled down on your position and repeatedly (and continue to) exclaim that 'you're wrong, VII worse, prequels better' with little to no elaboration. It's on the level of 'Nuh UH!' as a response.

And finally, if you're going to stick your fingers in your ears and shout 'lalala can't hear you!' in lieu of defending your position when challenged on it, that's as good as conceding.

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1. They weren't. That's all there is to it and no matter how much you try to rationalize it, it won't change. Prequels at their worst weren't shit like Force Awaken.
2. Empire can be watched alone with no real need to watch A New Hope, there is also no excuse to make incomplete movie. Just because you plan to make sequels doesn't mean it's somehow good to shove plot lines at viewer and not do anything with it. There is difference between leaving things unanswered, showing that story isn't over and showing plot threads in your face as if screaming "watch the next one if you want to know what is going on now", that is shit you can pull of in serial format, sometimes. For all those things I don't like from Episodes I-III they at least added to value of Star Wars as a whole instead of being net loss.
3. I think I made it rather clear that I had no interest in continuing, you just couldn't leave it alone.
4. None of your arguments were worth engaging seeing as they were based on assumption that "prequels are worst thing ever". Add to that I had no interest in discussing it in the first place and you got what you got.

 

[Sapphite]

1. What? Like really what? I think you are missing something in that sentence or can't read.

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That was supposed to be "wasn't." I've gone back and corrected the mistake.

2. It's movie that constantly make references to better ones that came before it, that rely on them to be anything but incoherent mess. Reference to something better the movie.

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The Force Awakens references the previous Star Wars trilogies, because it, you know, is a sequel to those works. Of course it relies on those movies to make sense. It's the seventh chapter in an ongoing work. Why are you treating this as a bad thing? A New Hope is pretty much the only one that can easily stand on its own, as it was made without any idea that there would be an opportunity to continue the story. During filming Lucas was convinced Star Wars was going to flop and ruin his career. Every other Star Wars movie has been made with the idea that it has other works to support it, and may even contribute to further works down the line. Vilifying TFA for following a pattern every other Star Wars movie has followed is a waste of time.

Does this move have flaws? Yes, of course it does. But nothing you've brought up is an actual flaw with the movie, just paltry excuses to justify your dislike. You say Rey didn't face any hardships, when she clearly did. You say it does a poor job with the hero's journey, when it does an adequate job for two different protagonists. You claim the protagonists are poorly crafted, but never give an example of such. You complain the movie doesn't use any of the elements or stories from the EU, but not using EU material doesn't actually do anything to ruin the quality of the movie. Everything you've brought up is either a bald-faced lie, or a vague complaint of the quality of the film that does nothing to say why the film is bad, just that you think it's bad. I honestly don't care whether or not you like The Force Awakens, I'm just sick of the groundless bullshit you're trying to pass off as criticism.

 

[Dakkaface]

aja318 You are the worst bad faith debater I've seen in some time. My position is 'because of X, Y, and Z - movies A,B, & C are bad - worse in fact, than Movie D.' This is functionally identical to your stance of 'Because of reasons, Movie D is the worst. Movies A, B, & C are better than D. I've given you zero indication of me starting with a conclusion and then finding evidence.

I didn't do you the disservice of assuming bad faith in your dislike of FA despite, as pointed out by Sapphite, that every one of your complaints has been utter unfounded bullshit unbacked by evidence. I did not make any claim that you had started from your conclusion and then sought confirmation, despite there being every appearance of you disliking it for it's popularity. I didn't assume misogyny or racism despite your initial statement and followups bitching about Rey and Finn as bad without making any statements explaining why.

Your opinion is laughable and apparently based on nothing of substance, but you're free to have it. Don't expect that people aren't going to poke holes in it though, especially when you continually assert that you're just right and don't have to explain shit.

 

[TehChron]

I grade TFA below the prequels on the simple metric that each time I watched it, I would fall asleep during its runtime

And Revenge of the Sith has Palpatine going full hammy baller mode and that shit was just magical

 

[aja318]

That was supposed to be "wasn't." I've gone back and corrected the mistake.


The Force Awakens references the previous Star Wars trilogies, because it, you know, is a sequel to those works. Of course it relies on those movies to make sense. It's the seventh chapter in an ongoing work. Why are you treating this as a bad thing? A New Hope is pretty much the only one that can easily stand on its own, as it was made without any idea that there would be an opportunity to continue the story. During filming Lucas was convinced Star Wars was going to flop and ruin his career. Every other Star Wars movie has been made with the idea that it has other works to support it, and may even contribute to further works down the line. Vilifying TFA for following a pattern every other Star Wars movie has followed is a waste of time.

Does this move have flaws? Yes, of course it does. But nothing you've brought up is an actual flaw with the movie, just paltry excuses to justify your dislike. You say Rey didn't face any hardships, when she clearly did. You say it does a poor job with the hero's journey, when it does an adequate job for two different protagonists. You claim the protagonists are poorly crafted, but never give an example of such. You complain the movie doesn't use any of the elements or stories from the EU, but not using EU material doesn't actually do anything to ruin the quality of the movie. Everything you've brought up is either a bald-faced lie, or a vague complaint of the quality of the film that does nothing to say why the film is bad, just that you think it's bad. I honestly don't care whether or not you like The Force Awakens, I'm just sick of the groundless bullshit you're trying to pass off as criticism.

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So you choose to ignore what i said in favor of what you thought I said. Well then.
My complaint was that they could gave used EU instead of wiping the board as it were, take some inspiration from there or do anything that wasn't "Empire is back and we are doing everything again".
As for character faults, well again Rey was at no point really hindered, wither because of skills she shouldn't have or because she grew them suddenly with no buildup. There was no situation where she was helpless and required assistance even when wverything dictated she should be. It also help if protagonist have personality.
Finn is worst stormtrooper, he remember that he can fight once during whole movie, in any other situation he act in way indicating no preparation for his job as part of army. Also unstable, will swich sides instantly and shoot you without even blinking. He may not have been terrible by design byt surely was in execution.
To touch on mot standing on it's own, older movies can actually be watched in separation and make sense and while they are indeed connected they didn't rely on references to keep you watching or to convince you to care.

aja318 You are the worst bad faith debater I've seen in some time. My position is 'because of X, Y, and Z - movies A,B, & C are bad - worse in fact, than Movie D.' This is functionally identical to your stance of 'Because of reasons, Movie D is the worst. Movies A, B, & C are better than D. I've given you zero indication of me starting with a conclusion and then finding evidence.

I didn't do you the disservice of assuming bad faith in your dislike of FA despite, as pointed out by Sapphite, that every one of your complaints has been utter unfounded bullshit unbacked by evidence. I did not make any claim that you had started from your conclusion and then sought confirmation, despite there being every appearance of you disliking it for it's popularity. I didn't assume misogyny or racism despite your initial statement and followups bitching about Rey and Finn as bad without making any statements explaining why.

Your opinion is laughable and apparently based on nothing of substance, but you're free to have it. Don't expect that people aren't going to poke holes in it though, especially when you continually assert that you're just right and don't have to explain shit.

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First of all, my problem with this movie is that it's bad, pure and simple. I don't see attempt to be liked by association with something better is good writing. As for acting, it's as good as plot, not worth remembering with only characters who were in originals not being terrible.
By no metric is TFA superior or equal to any of it's predecessors.

 

[ultima333]

I grade TFA below the prequels on the simple metric that each time I watched it, I would fall asleep during its runtime

And Revenge of the Sith has Palpatine going full hammy baller mode and that shit was just magical

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It made for one hell of a meme, that's for sure.

Also Game Grumps did a thing with it, too

 

[Fenrir]

Being perfectly honest when Rey was getting drawn to the saber, I actually winced when I heard the screaming. That saber belonged to Anakin, remember what one of the last things he did with it was?

 

[Sapphite]

Seriously?

So you choose to ignore what i said in favor of what you thought I said. Well then.
My complaint was that they could gave used EU instead of wiping the board as it were, take some inspiration from there or do anything that wasn't "Empire is back and we are doing everything again".

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Yes, they could have used the EU for inspiration. But they didn't. Nor were they obligated to do so. Nor does that make the movie bad, or impact its story in any way. "I wished they had used more elements from the EU instead of ignoring it" is a perfectly fine opinion to have, but it's not a criticism of the movie we got.

And as for "doing everything again," one of the plots in the EU involved Palpatine resurrecting himself in a clone body, forcing a Skywalker to be his apprentice, and reforming the Empire. The Force Awakens is hardly less original than that.

As for character faults, well again Rey was at no point really hindered, wither because of skills she shouldn't have or because she grew them suddenly with no buildup. There was no situation where she was helpless and required assistance even when wverything dictated she should be.

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Rey is captured and literally tortured by the villain. She has to break out and fight the villain in order to escape. Luke never had to do that in A New Hope.

It also help if protagonist have personality.

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Rey's an optimistic scavenger who craves validation and an end to her loneliness. That's a perfectly developed personality. You don't have to like her personality, but don't pretend it doesn't exist.

Finn is worst stormtrooper, he remember that he can fight once during whole movie, in any other situation he act in way indicating no preparation for his job as part of army. Also unstable, will swich sides instantly and shoot you without even blinking. He may not have been terrible by design byt surely was in execution.

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I'm honestly having a hard time understanding what you're trying to say here. Finn's a trained soldier who balks at his duty when he sees the casual brutality his superiors engage in. He runs because he doesn't want to gun down innocent people. He only attacks other Stormtroopers when they try to hurt him or someone he cares about. I'm not seeing how any of this is terrible in design or execution. In what way do you disagree?

To touch on mot standing on it's own, older movies can actually be watched in separation and make sense and while they are indeed connected they didn't rely on references to keep you watching or to convince you to care.

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Empire Strikes Back gives almost no information as to who the main characters are or what their situation is in the beginning. The movie relies on you having seen the previous one to figure that out. Return of the Jedi again avoids going into such detail. None of the prequels bother to explain any of the background of the setting, to the point where no one actually mentions who the Sith are or what they want. These movies rely on the viewers having a degree of familiarity with the setting and characters in order to view them. If you were to watch Return of the Jedi on it's own without any knowledge of the Stars Wars universe, much of the context would be lost. That's how sequels work.

First of all, my problem with this movie is that it's bad, pure and simple. I don't see attempt to be liked by association with something better is good writing. As for acting, it's as good as plot, not worth remembering with only characters who were in originals not being terrible.
By no metric is TFA superior or equal to any of it's predecessors.

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You keep saying this, but you don't give a reason why you think this.

 

[aja318]

Seriously?

Yes, they could have used the EU for inspiration. But they didn't. Nor were they obligated to do so. Nor does that make the movie bad, or impact its story in any way. "I wished they had used more elements from the EU instead of ignoring it" is a perfectly fine opinion to have, but it's not a criticism of the movie we got.

And as for "doing everything again," one of the plots in the EU involved Palpatine resurrecting himself in a clone body, forcing a Skywalker to be his apprentice, and reforming the Empire. The Force Awakens is hardly less original than that.

Rey is captured and literally tortured by the villain. She has to break out and fight the villain in order to escape. Luke never had to do that in A New Hope.

Rey's an optimistic scavenger who craves validation and an end to her loneliness. That's a perfectly developed personality. You don't have to like her personality, but don't pretend it doesn't exist.

I'm honestly having a hard time understanding what you're trying to say here. Finn's a trained soldier who balks at his duty when he sees the casual brutality his superiors engage in. He runs because he doesn't want to gun down innocent people. He only attacks other Stormtroopers when they try to hurt him or someone he cares about. I'm not seeing how any of this is terrible in design or execution. In what way do you disagree?

Empire Strikes Back gives almost no information as to who the main characters are or what their situation is in the beginning. The movie relies on you having seen the previous one to figure that out. Return of the Jedi again avoids going into such detail. None of the prequels bother to explain any of the background of the setting, to the point where no one actually mentions who the Sith are or what they want. These movies rely on the viewers having a degree of familiarity with the setting and characters in order to view them. If you were to watch Return of the Jedi on it's own without any knowledge of the Stars Wars universe, much of the context would be lost. That's how sequels work.


You keep saying this, but you don't give a reason why you think this.

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1. There were much more plots to choose from and not all of them from EU, they just choose bad one. They could have pushed forward from end of Return of the Jedi but instead went back.
2. Having villain return is old plot but that isn't only one you can use, point is they had options to do something good, they didn't take it.
3. You mean is captured, overpower trained Force user in mental combat then develop skill in Force from nowhere. Following that she keep up in fight where her face should be used to make imprints in trees even with all handicaps she had. Facts she didn't need help anywhere and did things she shouldn't doesn't help. Also getting some of plots of Leia while also being given constant victories during her captivity don't make me feel that she was in danger, ever.
4. She have backstory, some mostly informed traits and impossible skills but that doesn't add up to character or personality. They simply don't mesh into coherent whole, supposed personality doesn't translate into actions, general behavior is in contradiction to backstory and skills don't add at all. Besides aside from that, she is dull and unmemorable.
5. He doesn't act trained, he act as if he had no idea what to do at any moment. There are no reactions that would even hint he was soldier like when Rey attacked him. Even in situations where he should or could know what to do he's just lost. Similar situation with swithing sides, too fast and too clean of break. There is simply nothing to show that he was trained, indoctrinated and then showed that it's all fucked up.
6. Empire is perfectly easy to follow even without watching previous movie, Jedi less so but still not real problem. Same with prequels, first two need nothing to work alone while third is a bitmore dependant on second.
7. Prequels had story that isn't failed attempt at recreating older movie in series, protagonists that weren't absolutely bland and unappealing, acting that was overall okay, plot that actually worked and was possible to follow.

 

[2 Hot Crown Subdues the Sinful]

You guys remember in A New Hope when Luke fought Vader right after Obi-Wan died, armed with nothing but a few pointers he got from Obi during the ride from Tatooine to the Death Star? Or how Jar-Jar, despite being a bumbling idiot, is supposed have had extensive military training that he somehow never used? No? Then TFA is the worst of the SW movies.

 

[prussiastones]

On the other hand, while the prequels did try to tell a story bigger than the trilogy was able to, it's writing failures were manifold. It has story failures as well. Why are they attempting to lock guys in a room when they have laser swords, and KNOW they have them? Why is he here? Why is that city here? Why do we care what happens to her? Why is he doing that instead of just killing him? Why are we using Darth Vader as a little boy? Why do we care about him at this age?

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This whole thing is pretty fucking stupid because it's even truer for TFA. The prequels have young Darth Vader because they're fucking prequels and you would care because he's a returning character that people know. TFA on the otherhand also gives us no fucking reason to care about any of the characters using this logic.

 

[Dakkaface]

You guys remember in A New Hope when Luke fought Vader right after Obi-Wan died, armed with nothing but a few pointers he got from Obi during the ride from Tatooine to the Death Star? Or how Jar-Jar, despite being a bumbling idiot, is supposed have had extensive military training that he somehow never used? No? Then TFA is the worst of the SW movies.

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This whole thing is pretty fucking stupid because it's even truer for TFA. The prequels have young Darth Vader because they're fucking prequels and you would care because he's a returning character that people know. TFA on the otherhand also gives us no fucking reason to care about any of the characters using this logic.

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Except I can judge the prequels as a complete work. When Episode 1 came out, I didn't have anywhere near as low an opinion on it as I do now. They introduced child Anakin and then completely failed to do anything of note with him, because there is zero plot dev they did with him where his being a child was important. As much as I liked Qui-gon as a character and Liam Neeson is amazing, his presence was irrelevant to the overall saga. Jar Jar was the main fault I had with that movie initially, and while he was annoying as hell, he still manages to be amusingly relevant (even if in a completely nonsensical way) by being the guy who fucks up and hands Palpatine his power later on. All of the plot things I bitched about Ep1 could have been forgivable had those plot elements actually been used in later movies, or used with purpose or logic within that movie. Neither happened. The work is over and done with and it squandered it's potential.

TFA is Act 1 of 3 - while it's not good that all these threads were left dangling, it's also not OVER yet. We don't have any pickup of the plot threads within this movie, there's still two more to go. If in Ep VIII or IX it's revealed that someone stuffed a load of Jedi teachings sideways into her head, or she has a force ghost following her around and whispering shit in her ear, or she found a holocron while she was on Jakku, or someone has a special Battle Meditiation link to her, or she was actually using the dark side that whole time because the dark side is supposed to be easy, or fucking anything they come up with - it retroactively resolves issues in TFA. And most of the issues I have with TFA are Rey's stunning competence with Force powers with what is apparently zero training. Other than that it's the lack of development on Phasma and Snoke. Rey being able to fight or pilot the Falcon is a non-issue. Finn being halfway competent at fighting (and being lucky) is a non-issue. Kylo Ren losing a fight after getting shot by the 'FUCK YOU I'M CHEWBACCA' gun is a non-issue.

I can respect an opinion of 'I dislike this movie.' I can't respect an opinion of 'This unfinished work is complete dogshit because it appears to be plotted poorly - and it is worse than a fully completed work that is terrible because of bad plot, bad acting, and a complete lack of emotional engagement.'

 

[prussiastones]

Except I can judge the prequels as a complete work. When Episode 1 came out, I didn't have anywhere near as low an opinion on it as I do now. They introduced child Anakin and then completely failed to do anything of note with him,

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Like what ? The whole point of a prequel is to explain how things got to the way they did. Expecting someone to "do something with a character" is frankly stupid because as you say later on in your post Episode I was supposed to set things up and it did as the political ramifications what happened in the movie sets up the grand picture of Palpatines rise to power, and also sets up Anakin and Padme's relationship as well as Anakins ability with Ships, droids, and the burden he faces as the Chosen One

Jar Jar was the main fault I had with that movie initially, and while he was annoying as hell, he still manages to be amusingly relevant (even if in a completely nonsensical way) by being the guy who fucks up and hands Palpatine his power later on

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No, that was everyone in the Senate including Padme who got him to be Chancellor in the first place.

liked Qui-gon as a character and Liam Neeson is amazing, his presence was irrelevant to the overall saga.

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It's because of Qui Gons wish that Obi Wan trains Anakin at all and is motivated enough to do so. So no I would day that he was pretty damn important.

I can respect an opinion of 'I dislike this movie.' I can't respect an opinion of 'This unfinished work is complete dogshit because it appears to be plotted poorly - and it is worse than a fully completed work that is terrible because of bad plot, bad acting, and a complete lack of emotional engagement.'

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I don't hate TFA I just thought your argument was bad because while you can judge a movie based on the fact that it's meant to be seen with others it still has to be able to stand as it's own movie, I dont believe that Episode I does this either, and in my opinion Episode III is the only one worth watching.

 

[Dakkaface]

Like what ? The whole point of a prequel is to explain how things got to the way they did. Expecting someone to "do something with a character" is frankly stupid because as you say later on in your post Episode I was supposed to set things up and it did as the political ramifications what happened in the movie sets up the grand picture of Palpatines rise to power, and also sets up Anakin and Padme's relationship as well as Anakins ability with Ships, droids, and the burden he faces as the Chosen One

No, that was everyone in the Senate including Padme who got him to be Chancellor in the first place.

It's because of Qui Gons wish that Obi Wan trains Anakin at all and is motivated enough to do so. So no I would day that he was pretty damn important.

I don't hate TFA I just thought your argument was bad because while you can judge a movie based on the fact that it's meant to be seen with others it still has to be able to stand as it's own movie, I dont believe that Episode I does this either, and in my opinion Episode III is the only one worth watching.

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Episode I sets up nothing. A person could watch from Episode II on and miss nothing. What is revealed or set up in TPM that needs to be referenced back to in later episodes? There's nothing that TPM did that couldn't have just been told to us in the opening crawl of Ep II, and that's a failure of storytelling. TPM can kind of stand on it's own as a movie because it has a self-contained plot, even if I find it ridiculous and meandering. But it has no connections of substance to the rest of the trilogy it's supposed to be building and it is only tenuously connected to the previous trilogy. Episode 1 is entirely disposable.

Jar Jar is still the one that proposes the motion to make him chancellor - yeah, they voted for it, but he still put the motion forward. He might have only cast a pebble on a weak mountainside but he still started the avalanche.

Qui-Gon pushing Ben to take Anakin is irrelevant! It's useless bullshit which could be avoided by just having them start the prequels with Ben training Anakin. If Ben never really wanting to take Anakin was a plot point and a source of personal friction between master an student repeatedly raised through the movies that eventually lead up to the final fight on Mustafar, you might have a point, but that doesn't happen.

Episode 1 does stand on it's own - I'll give it that over TFA. I just feel that as an aggregate, the prequels were a massive failed effort in storytelling, and while the sequels may also be a failed effort in storytelling, they a) are as yet unreleased and unjudgeable and b) TFA at the very least gets a chunk of the feel of a Star Wars movie right, even as it appears to fuck up the story details. Screwball dialogue mixed with action sequences and big setpieces. It has emotional and humorous texture in a way none of the prequels do. For all that I love Christopher Lee as Dooku and and Hammy Palpatine, the prequels were flat and stale performances all around. As I've said repeatedly, I don't think TFA can stand on it's own and I don't feel it's a great movie. But I think that with the information we have now the prequels are worse. This assessment could change come 2017 and Episode VII.

God I'm sick of arguing. I've been doing that too much as of late. If you want to make a rebuttal, go ahead, but I think I'm bowing out of this argument.

 

[prussiastones]

Episode I sets up nothing. A person could watch from Episode II on and miss nothing. What is revealed or set up in TPM that needs to be referenced back to in later episodes? There's nothing that TPM did that couldn't have just been told to us in the opening crawl of Ep II, and that's a failure of storytelling. TPM can kind of stand on it's own as a movie because it has a self-contained plot, even if I find it ridiculous and meandering. But it has no connections of substance to the rest of the trilogy it's supposed to be building and it is only tenuously connected to the previous trilogy. Episode 1 is entirely disposable.

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Like I said before it literally sets up how Palpatine became Chancellor, and the beginnings of the Clone Wars. If you want to ignore that, go ahead, but you can't act like it isn't there.

Jar Jar is still the one that proposes the motion to make him chancellor - yeah, they voted for it, but he still put the motion forward. He might have only cast a pebble on a weak mountainside but he still started the avalanche.

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Palpatine still asked Padme to do the vote of no confidence in the first place.

Qui-Gon pushing Ben to take Anakin is irrelevant!

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"Oh Qui-Gon did nothing, oh what he did something? Well it's irrelevent!!"

It's useless bullshit

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No it fucking isn't because it sets up Anakin almost not being accepted into the order and the pressure he had to face because of Qui-Gon revealing him as the possible chosen one.

TFA at the very least gets a chunk of the feel of a Star Wars movie right

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No, TFA does not feel like a Star Wars movie, the way that everything in it makes it feel like it's trying too hard to be a Star Wars movie, it had none of the actual feel of a Star Wars movie and again felt like it was trying to remake ANH. This doesn't make it a bad movie, but the point still stands.

a) are as yet unreleased and unjudgeable

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If you need other movies to make sure that your story seems like it's going somewhere then you have a problem.

I just feel that as an aggregate, the prequels were a massive failed effort in storytelling,

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No they fucking weren't, the actors and the dialogue does make it very hard to see it in that light, but the prequels tell a very pointed story about the rise of Palpatine and the state of the Jedi Order and the decaying Republic.

For all that I love Christopher Lee as Dooku and and Hammy Palpatine, the prequels were flat and stale performances all around.

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Obi-Wan. Literally Obi-Wan.

God I'm sick of arguing. I've been doing that too much as of late. If you want to make a rebuttal, go ahead, but I think I'm bowing out of this argument.

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If you're sick of arguing then don't fucking reply one last time. That's a dick move because you're going: " here are all my points now fuck you I'm not listening to yours."

 

[Dakkaface]

If you're sick of arguing then don't fucking reply one last time. That's a dick move because you're going: " here are all my points now fuck you I'm not listening to yours."

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I had a particularly bad day with a dozen stupid dumpster fire political debates on my Facebook page.

Like I said before it literally sets up how Palpatine became Chancellor, and the beginnings of the Clone Wars. If you want to ignore that, go ahead, but you can't act like it isn't there.

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It does show how he displaces the previous chancellor. That's not really necessary for Attack of the Clones. It establishes that there is a Trade Federation, they're evil guys, and some shadowy dude who looks suspiciously like the Emperor is backing them. That set of facts could be told in the opening crawl of Ep II and we' wouldn't miss anything.

I'll concede that TPM doesn't contribute 'literally nothing' but it's contribution and interlinking with the later episodes are pretty minimal.

"Oh Qui-Gon did nothing, oh what he did something? Well it's irrelevent!!"

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It is. As I recall (and having double checked the wiki because memory is finicky), the sum total of references back to it consist of an audio clip of Qui-gon protesting as Anakin slaughters the Tusken Camp and that's it. It's not brought up as a source of friction ever again.

No it fucking isn't because it sets up Anakin almost not being accepted into the order and the pressure he had to face because of Qui-Gon revealing him as the possible chosen one.

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When does the prophesy come up again other than the fight on Mustafar? 'The pressure he faced' is never highlighted.

No, TFA does not feel like a Star Wars movie, the way that everything in it makes it feel like it's trying too hard to be a Star Wars movie, it had none of the actual feel of a Star Wars movie and again felt like it was trying to remake ANH. This doesn't make it a bad movie, but the point still stands.

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Unlike your other assertions, this has no evidence behind it and is indeed contradicted by the opinions of other people even within this thread. Perhaps it does not feel as such for you, but many people did feel that this captured the feel of the original trilogy much more closely than the prequels did. Feel is a fairly hard thing to argue but the biggest thing for me was snappy back and forth dialogue with a touch of humor to accompany all the big action sequences and special effects - something that I found sorely lacking in the prequels.

If you need other movies to make sure that your story seems like it's going somewhere then you have a problem.

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Indeed. Which is why I'm not arguing that TFA was great. It was conditionally passable. I'm giving them a chance to meet them in the next movie because you can do that when you've guaranteed to get another movie out, and not something you can do in all movies. You on the other hand, are taking the conditions not being met immediately as an automatic failure.

No they fucking weren't, the actors and the dialogue does make it very hard to see it in that light, but the prequels tell a very pointed story about the rise of Palpatine and the state of the Jedi Order and the decaying Republic.

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I won't argue that they don't tell any kind of story. They do tell a story. A pointlessly meandering story full of wasted asides, nonsensical dialogue, and bizarre editing. A story which has some of the same silly plot contrivances I've seen in TFA. A story I find more tedious and less engaging than TFA's. Which again, could also lose me with Ep VIII if they don't pick up at least a few of the dangling threads and hint at resolutions for the rest.

Obi-Wan. Literally Obi-Wan.

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MacGregor's performance varies. He's a stellar actor, but even good actors can be directed into wooden performance or have lines they can't do anything with. Some of his scenes are good, and when he is allowed to use his range he does it well. But he's pushed into a flat performance very often in the prequels. TFA at least gives it's actors opportunities to act, instead of woodenly mouthing the director's words.

 

[prussiastones]

It does show how he displaces the previous chancellor. That's not really necessary for Attack of the Clones. It establishes that there is a Trade Federation, they're evil guys, and some shadowy dude who looks suspiciously like the Emperor is backing them. That set of facts could be told in the opening crawl of Ep II and we' wouldn't miss anything.

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Then it would beg the question why we never saw it and are instead being bootstrapped into a conflict without knowing the background, like what TFA did with the Republic and the Resistance by offering no explanation whatsoever in movie.

It is. As I recall (and having double checked the wiki because memory is finicky), the sum total of references back to it consist of an audio clip of Qui-gon protesting as Anakin slaughters the Tusken Camp and that's it. It's not brought up as a source of friction ever again.

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Like I said, it sets up the council not trusting Anakin and the friction that comes from that as both Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan pushes for him to be trained. It shows up primarily in Episode III when Windu continues to show his distrust of Anakin because of that particular thing which also drives him up the wall.

Perhaps it does not feel as such for you, but many people did feel that this captured the feel of the original trilogy much more closely than the prequels did.

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That's cool, but the prequels weren't trying to be a carbon copy of ANH, and actually felt like they occupied the same Universe. TFA just feels like a retconn.

I won't argue that they don't tell any kind of story. They do tell a story. A pointlessly meandering story full of wasted asides, nonsensical dialogue, and bizarre editing.

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That is true and I honestly can't argue against that. But-

A story which has some of the same silly plot contrivances

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Like what? Re-killing every single Jedi so that it could be more like ANH? Splintering the Resistance and the Republic for some vague reason? The Republic not taking the First Order seriously at all for some reason leaving the Rebe- Resistance desperate and being driven into a wall? Nothing I've seen in the prequels reach that level, except maybe AotC.

 

[Ragnarok]

My big problem with TFA is how unimaginative it is. I'm not going to argue it was a bad movie and I'm not going to argue the prequels were better. The force awakens was a perfectly passable movie. I would say that objectively episode 7 was better written and acted than the prequels . But I will give the prequels and George Lucas this: at least they tried something new and be original, instead of rehashing the OT. The prequels problem was that they were the result of Lucas being too ambitious.

TFA feels very "safe" and very much like a modern Disney movie. They have a track record of making safe, fun movies, but that is as much to their detriment as their benefit. You would never see modern Disney make a potentially controversial movie like The Hunchback of Notre Dame today.

 

[Smuthunter]

My big problem with TFA is how unimaginative it is. I'm not going to argue it was a bad movie and I'm not going to argue the prequels were better. The force awakens was a perfectly passable movie. I would say that objectively episode 7 was better written and acted than the prequels . But I will give the prequels and George Lucas this: at least they tried something new and be original, instead of rehashing the OT. The prequels problem was that they were the result of Lucas being too ambitious.

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The biggest problem with the prequels is that new and original isn't what people wanted from new Star Wars movies, they wanted the same magic that the original series had and Lucas failed to capture it. But TFA did have that magic, even if it got it at the cost of following the rails perhaps more closely than it should have.

I will say this though: Rogue One is proof positive that Disney can do a kick-ass Star Wars movie better than Lucas ever has.

 

[BlackHadou]

... Rogue One is many things, but proof that Disney can do more then a popcorn flick it is not. The plot implodes in on itself the more you think about it.

Darth Vader is the best part of that movie and he has about 4 minutes screen time.