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Video Games General

So news in Tifa was censored

We wanted Tifa to have abs, so she has an athletic body type. The ethics department at Square Enix also told us that we had to tighten her chest as not to get unnatural during all the intense action. From there we got the black underwear and fitted tank top.

Now can you stop making excuses for them.

sauce.


https://operationrainfall.com/2019/06/18/final-fantasy-vii-remake-honey-bee-inn/
 
Malcolmo said:
So the ethics department is involved with clipping and game physics? Doesn't that sound mildly odd to you?
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Provided it's even an accurate translation, which I'm doubting.
Their command was based on how they want it to look during action scenes, which has nothing to do with ethics to begin with, or even loosely related to PR. So either they're talking bullshit, or the department does something wholly different than what the translated name suggests.

And given that their solution was to reduce the chest size and add a bra designed to restrict bouncing, what seems the most likely is that they didn't want silly giggle physics or large stiff breasts.
 
aabbcc said:
Provided it's even an accurate translation, which I'm doubting.
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Even if it's inaccurate/not 100% accurate, it should still come out somewhat resembling the intended meaning. Take it from someone who's gotten used to parsing through machine translations (which this seems like a cleaned up version of).
Their command was based on how they want it to look during action scenes, which has nothing to do with ethics to begin with, or even loosely related to PR. So either they're talking bullshit, or the department does something wholly different than what the translated name suggests.
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Really, you can't think of any reason why how a character's chest moves in action scenes might impact how PR or the public looks at it? Are you really sure about that? Because I for one can definitely see how any kind of jiggle physics or large breasts would cause certain people to start reeing.
And given that their solution was to reduce the chest size and add a bra designed to restrict bouncing, what seems the most likely is that they didn't want silly giggle physics or large stiff breasts.
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You can make large breasts seem fine without silly jiggle physics. And yet the option that was gone for was the one that involved a smaller chest and minimized sexiness.

Also, nitpick it's jiggle not giggle. A giggle is a type of laugh
 
Malcolmo said:
Even if it's inaccurate/not 100% accurate, it should still come out somewhat resembling the intended meaning. Take it from someone who's gotten used to parsing through machine translations (which this seems like a cleaned up version of).
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Paragraphs, yes, single terms like "x department", not so much. Particularly with a language with as many homophones as Japanese.

Malcolmo said:
Really, you can't think of any reason why how a character's chest moves in action scenes might impact how PR or the public looks at it? Are you really sure about that? Because I for one can definitely see how any kind of jiggle physics or large breasts would cause certain people to start reeing.
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Your general concern with reeing is still stock photos and trailers, and to a much lesser extent, gameplay clips. Unless the game is doing full DOA levels of bounciness, there's little to no chance that said gameplay clips would somehow be of special concern for PR if everything else before that was ok.

And yet, they didn't went for the general character design, how it would look on promo art, or anything like that, they went for how it would look while in action. Again, either bull, or the ethics department isn't actually about what the name says.

Malcolmo said:
You can make large breasts seem fine without silly jiggle physics.
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Past a certain size, it just looks fake, and SE isn't known to be skilled at that area, so expecting them to do more than either 'stiff as a board' or 'full highschool of the dead silliness' is expecting too much of them.
 
aabbcc said:
Paragraphs, yes, single terms like "x department", not so much. Particularly with a language with as many homophones as Japanese.
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You'd be surprised. Machine translation is relatively good at getting descriptors like that across in an understandable way. Admittedly we can't be 100% sure without the original text or interview but I'd say there's a very good chance that when they say ethics they mean ethics or at the very least something similar in meaning.
Your general concern with reeing is still stock photos and trailers, and to a much lesser extent, gameplay clips. Unless the game is doing full DOA levels of bounciness, there's little to no chance that said gameplay clips would somehow be of special concern for PR if everything else before that was ok.
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And you're not going to see the movement of said chest in said trailers why exactly? Are you planning on not having the character move at all in said trailers? You still have to animate the thing even if you're doing a cinematic trailer rather then an in engine one dude. You can't make characters appear drastically different in trailer then they do in game without complaints and questions as to why. Hence why there'd be reeing all the same.
And yet, they didn't went for the general character design, how it would look on promo art, or anything like that, they went for how it would look while in action. Again, either bull, or the ethics department isn't actually about what the name says.
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That is of course assuming that that's the only reason they did so rather then the only one mentioned thus far in an interview that wasn't focused on the subject and covered other topics. Never mind how it'd look bad for the game if the developer out and out said "we made her chest smaller because we didn't want her too look too sexy" and as such wouldn't be said in an interview even if it was the case.
Past a certain size, it just looks fake, and SE isn't known to be skilled at that area, so expecting them to do more than either 'stiff as a board' or 'full highschool of the dead silliness' is expecting too much of them.
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That doesn't mean it's impossible, not to mention that very few people are going to complain "this character's chest isn't as jiggly as it realistically should be" if you make it stiffer then it should be. It's a non issue.
 
Malcolmo said:
You'd be surprised. Machine translation is relatively good at getting descriptors like that across in an understandable way. Admittedly we can't be 100% sure without the original text or interview but I'd say there's a very good chance that when they say ethics they mean ethics or at the very least something similar in meaning.
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Err, dude, machine translation is at it's worst when trying to do that.
With any other text, machine translation can use context to figure out things, with a descriptor like 'x department', the only usable context is 'department', so the machine translation cannot do a good job if it's a homophone, only guess by the most common, and gee, 'ethics department'? Fairly common.

Malcolmo said:
And you're not going to see the movement of said chest in said trailers why exactly? Are you planning on not having the character move at all in said trailers? You still have to animate the thing even if you're doing a cinematic trailer rather then an in engine one dude. You can't make characters appear drastically different in trailer then they do in game without complaints and questions as to why. Hence why there'd be reeing all the same.
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No, you're missing the point.
"hey pete, look, the character art we released? Totally awesome, the posters? Fine, the cutscenes? She looks amazing. The trailer you spent painstaking hours making sure everything looks right? She looks great there. But there's a bit of an issue with the gameplay, the chest is too big there and focus groups says people will ree".
It sounds totally stupid. Because if the problem was that, then the department would have chimed in during the character design phase, or failing that, literally any other phase before looking at the fight animations.

Now, if the problem was that it clipped during some fight animations? Ok, that's an entirely different story, one that wasn't a problem during all those phases, but suddenly became one during checking the fight scenes. It was never a problem in the artwork, the cutscenes aren't even using the same model and are using an entirely different physics engine, and for the trailer, those animations in particular you've spent several hours getting right and picking the ones that look best, and if in many of the discarded ones there was a clipping problem or it looked fake, it would be caught by the animators who did the work and did said discarding, not by some other department looking at the finished or half-finished product.

Malcolmo said:
That is of course assuming that that's the only reason they did so rather then the only one mentioned thus far in an interview that wasn't focused on the subject and covered other topics. Never mind how it'd look bad for the game if the developer out and out said "we made her chest smaller because we didn't want her too look too sexy" and as such wouldn't be said in an interview even if it was the case.
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"We wanted to go with appearances closer to the original character artwork". Done.

Malcolmo said:
That doesn't mean it's impossible, not to mention that very few people are going to complain "this character's chest isn't as jiggly as it realistically should be" if you make it stiffer then it should be. It's a non issue.
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It's actually way harder than you seem to think. Way harder. You need to get the skeleton right with the right weights and resistances, you need to get the mesh right so it doesn't get wrecked on certain positions, you need to get the engine that does the twisting right so it doesn't fuck the mesh, you need to get the physics engine right so everything moves as it should instead of the breast suddenly stuttering and then flying off-screen.
And you need to get them all from a company that, as far as I know, has zero experience doing it. For a flagship game.
 
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Varnir Dragon Star will get its PC release in September. With the censored CGS in the PS4 version uncensored here.

Reviewers stated it had a solid story. I can wait a few more months to see it.
 
aabbcc said:
Err, dude, machine translation is at it's worst when trying to do that.
With any other text, machine translation can use context to figure out things, with a descriptor like 'x department', the only usable context is 'department', so the machine translation cannot do a good job if it's a homophone, only guess by the most common, and gee, 'ethics department'? Fairly common.
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And you of course can prove that it's a homophone and that the translation guessed incorrectly? Because I'm hearing a lot of assumptions and pretty sparse actual evidence beyond "I think it is".
No, you're missing the point.
"hey pete, look, the character art we released? Totally awesome, the posters? Fine, the cutscenes? She looks amazing. The trailer you spent painstaking hours making sure everything looks right? She looks great there. But there's a bit of an issue with the gameplay, the chest is too big there and focus groups says people will ree".
It sounds totally stupid. Because if the problem was that, then the department would have chimed in during the character design phase, or failing that, literally any other phase before looking at the fight animations.

Now, if the problem was that it clipped during some fight animations? Ok, that's an entirely different story, one that wasn't a problem during all those phases, but suddenly became one during checking the fight scenes. It was never a problem in the artwork, the cutscenes aren't even using the same model and are using an entirely different physics engine, and for the trailer, those animations in particular you've spent several hours getting right and picking the ones that look best, and if in many of the discarded ones there was a clipping problem or it looked fake, it would be caught by the animators who did the work and did said discarding, not by some other department looking at the finished or half-finished product.
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...
First off, you don't know when this command from the ethics department came in. There's no mention of date in the quote. Which means it's entirely possible that this came before all the trailer work was done and impacted said trailer work as well. Second, where exactly are you getting that the trailer work was done before any work on the gameplay was done? Or for that matter, that this was done solely for the sake of gameplay and not also the trailers? Remember, the quote mentions action sequences. Not gameplay. You still need to make an engine for cutscenes which will have action in them.

"We wanted to go with appearances closer to the original character artwork". Done.
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That still leaves you having to answer why exactly you felt that was worth doing rather then sticking with the current more familiar design.
It's actually way harder than you seem to think. Way harder. You need to get the skeleton right with the right weights and resistances, you need to get the mesh right so it doesn't get wrecked on certain positions, you need to get the engine that does the twisting right so it doesn't fuck the mesh, you need to get the physics engine right so everything moves as it should instead of the breast suddenly stuttering and then flying off-screen.
And you need to get them all from a company that, as far as I know, has zero experience doing it. For a flagship game.
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Most of said work needs to be done regardless of how large said breasts are. It might take more work if they're larger but some work would need to be done regardless. Or do you think even a restricted chest wouldn't require some amount of physics and work regardless, work which you'll also need to do with any other female characters.
 
By the way, now that Bloodstained is out, what are comments on it? Was the hype actually justified this time or is it yet another letdown?
 
Malcolmo said:
And you of course can prove that it's a homophone and that the translation guessed incorrectly? Because I'm hearing a lot of assumptions and pretty sparse actual evidence beyond "I think it is".
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The whole point of the line of argument was that the reason they gave made no sense for an ethics department, thus, it was likely it wasn't an ethics department at all.

Malcolmo said:
First off, you don't know when this command from the ethics department came in. There's no mention of date in the quote. Which means it's entirely possible that this came before all the trailer work was done and impacted said trailer work as well. Second, where exactly are you getting that the trailer work was done before any work on the gameplay was done? Or for that matter, that this was done solely for the sake of gameplay and not also the trailers? Remember, the quote mentions action sequences. Not gameplay. You still need to make an engine for cutscenes which will have action in them.
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Artwork and character design always comes first. It might be that some characters get done first and some other processes get started with only them so far, but generally, artwork and character design gets done the earliest.

Which they did, they likely had several options around the office. If the command was 'we don't like the character' or 'we don't want her to have large brests', it would have happened here.

But that wasn't the command.

Then they make the models (and other stuff unrelated to the characters, like level design).
Late trailers would come once the game was mostly done, but early trailers, and they clearly are at that stage, come as early pieces of the game become 'ready'. IE: they finished an area, and one monster, and a couple attack animations, maybe a spell or a limit break? Ok, trailer away to create hype.
You don't get 'usable' gameplay, as in, sections of the game long enough to get playtested, until a bit further than that.

You don't make an engine for cutscenes, well, you might if you're pixar or something, but otherwise, no, you use existing tools and go for straight for rendering the thing since it doesn't have to do it live and you don't care how long it takes the machine to do it. You're, of course, not even using the same models.
You might have said animators throwing a bitch fit about some aspect or another of the character being a pain to translate and asking the rest of the departments to change it, but not the other way around.
Work on the cutscenes, other than needing the script and stuff done and art design settled, can be done in parallel, before, or after the gameplay. Usually in parallel for larger studios, the other two for tiny ones. You usually have samples of what the character will look like pretty damn early, even if you don't have full scenes yet. The exception of this is if they have something that's an utter bitch to animate and you don't have the tools to do it for you, in which case you put a placeholder, but that's very unlikely to be the case with a game studio, time constraints mean they just modify the character to be easier than try to push on regardless.

Now, when was this command given? If it was done by an extra department like ethics, and it's commenting on the action, then it could not have come any earlier than the point where they have several animations and action sequences to show around, maybe not fully polished, but still pretty close to early trailer levels. Also likely a few cutscene renders of the character as well, and reams and reams of artwork, posters and the like.
If it was done by the animators or modeling guys, then it could have come earlier, because they are the ones with the job of turning the design into something for the game, and they are the ones with the expertise to say if it's feasible or not to make it look good before trying.

Malcolmo said:
That still leaves you having to answer why exactly you felt that was worth doing rather then sticking with the current more familiar design.
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And you can easily answer that one, they liked them better, or thought they'd look better with the rest of the art they wanted to use for the game.

Malcolmo said:
Most of said work needs to be done regardless of how large said breasts are. It might take more work if they're larger but some work would need to be done regardless. Or do you think even a restricted chest wouldn't require some amount of physics and work regardless, work which you'll also need to do with any other female characters.
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Nope, that's not how it works.
Below a certain size and you don't have to worry about clipping, and you can go with a static model. So no work on adding the breasts to the skeleton, no need to worry about making the mesh adaptable to such movement, and unless you need those systems for anything else, you cut away enormous amounts of work from the physics engine. This also dramatically boosts performance, btw, so you can use that to make the game look better in other aspects.
If you still want to animate them, smaller is so much easier it's not even funny.
 
Malcolmo aabbcc

There is ample precedent for an ethics department getting involved in how raunchy or risque the media can get. The banal-sounding Standards and Practices departments "responsible for the moral, ethical, and legal implications of the program that [a] network airs" have been controlling what's allowed on broadcast TV in the US for over half a century now. It's very common for them to drop the hammer on something the FCC wouldn't bat an eye at.
 
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Megaolix said:
By the way, now that Bloodstained is out, what are comments on it? Was the hype actually justified this time or is it yet another letdown?
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Now that I am playing Bloodstained on my PC I can comment on this properly.

So far I am enjoying it. It definitely nails down the Metrovania feel, and the Castlevania influences are fairly obvious and apart from the occasional glitch where I can't pick up monster, drops I have been having no trouble so far,

If you do play it though, be warning you will be doing -ALOT- of grinding for item and shard drops if you want to 100% the game.
 
AllyDoodle said:
Now that I am playing Bloodstained on my PC I can comment on this properly.

So far I am enjoying it. It definitely nails down the Metrovania feel, and the Castlevania influences are fairly obvious and apart from the occasional glitch where I can't pick up monster, drops I have been having no trouble so far,

If you do play it though, be warning you will be doing -ALOT- of grinding for item and shard drops if you want to 100% the game.
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I'm considering buying it, but gotta ask does the PS4 version have parts censored/redesigned or cut out? Because I'd really like to use that bunny outfit on her

Also, I don't have a PC and even if it were available on the MAC, my experience tells me that playing with a controller or not kinda has my game start bugging out or being unable to really move or do much and have lots of delays in simple actions like jumping as when I used to play Hollow Knight on my Mac and it made fights so much harder than necessary somehow
 
Badass6969 said:
I'm considering buying it, but gotta ask does the PS4 version have parts censored/redesigned or cut out? Because I'd really like to use that bunny outfit on her

Also, I don't have a PC and even if it were available on the MAC, my experience tells me that playing with a controller or not kinda has my game start bugging out or being unable to really move or do much and have lots of delays in simple actions like jumping as when I used to play Hollow Knight on my Mac and it made fights so much harder than necessary somehow
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I can't say for sure since I'm not playing it on the PS4, but I haven't heard anything about the game being censored in anyway on it. Though it seems that version has been having other problems since the last patch was released. As for the controller thing, I have been playing it with one on my PC and though only problem I have had is the MC freezing occasionally which was easily fixed.
 
AllyDoodle said:
I can't say for sure since I'm not playing it on the PS4, but I haven't heard anything about the game being censored in anyway on it. Though it seems that version has been having other problems since the last patch was released. As for the controller thing, I have been playing it with one on my PC and though only problem I have had is the MC freezing occasionally which was easily fixed.
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Only problem I've encountered so far is the loading screen of Bloodstained freezing

That said, gotta ask, in NG+ do enemies fail to level scale

Think of the problem NiER Automata's got that essentially makes every mook die from only one or two hits, so no more combos or fun massacring enemies with them and leveling being real fucking slow because those un-scaled mooks don't give much
 
Compile Heart(less) is at it again.

Death End Re;Quest 2 got announced.

Still written by the Corpse Party guy.

DdeA3vVUAADFvs1562084911.jpg

They said brand new plot, but I'll guess we'll see more later about that.
 
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