With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[Darko]

Yes, we rather gathered that since Erebos lacks, say, giant ribs looming overhead. Hades only knows which end would have been the ass, though.

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Maybe the part that leads to Tartarus.

Oh-ho, another Sandman callback. If you didn't read what Ngamer11 linked, it was a tale from the Dreaming, of a cat who travelled about, telling other cats of a time when they ruled Humanity. But the humans cheated them out of that rulership by collectively dreaming of a world in which they ruled, not cats. And if even one thousand cats dream of the way it was before at once, then it can be so again... But good luck getting that many cats to do anything together.

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Yeah, they'll probably be easily distracted by the nearest ball of yarn.

And that brings a new angle to the whole 'sibling marriage' thing. One with quite a lot less squick.

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Though there's still squick involved since Hecate said 'most of them', which means that some did it.

 

[Michael Vonica]

Wait wait, is he just baiting her on or is he seriously considering this.

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I think he's seriously considering it. She basically pointed out to him how his friends have enslaved someone for their own personal convenience, and how he has simply ignored it because he benifits from the situation as well. It doesn't matter that the slave could and quite possibly would crush him and everyone he knows upon release. Erebos has a right to be enraged, after all. But it would be stupid to just devote everything to free the titans. Hence gathering information on options that are both practical and line up with his own morality.

 

[w34v3r]

I don't think this is something he can trust his Atlantean contacts with...

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Why not, this sounds like exactly their wheelhouse.

 

[Darko]

Why not, this sounds like exactly their wheelhouse.

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The Atlanteans do worship the Roman gods, who are connected to the Greek gods, so maybe they could potentially tip-off the Roman's about it and then they'll go to the Olympians.

 

[Chojin Patriarch]

Why not, this sounds like exactly their wheelhouse.

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The Atlanteans do worship the Roman gods, who are connected to the Greek gods, so maybe they could potentially tip-off the Roman's about it and then they'll go to the Olympians.

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There'd also likely be some hesitation about releasing Titans, or 'freeing' them. The elders don't exactly have the best reputation amongst followers of either pantheon. And god only knows what Mera or Orin would make of this if they heard about it.

 

[Vaermina]

Wait wait, is he just baiting her on or is he seriously considering this.

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He's almost surely considering it.

 

[Rafin]

"And so fell Aether, and so rose Zeus."

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This whole story seems off. For one, it doesn't at all divide between Titans and Primordials. It ignores that Zeus's usurpation was the second usurpation. It discards Uranus and forgets that most (actual) Titans are not one with their primordial source domain, thus making them, what, superfluous?

And this problem is not solved by merely retconing the Theogonies. Because it has been established in story that Rhea, sister-wife of Cronus, was much more of a person than an alien force. And so were the Titan Seed recreations of her siblings. And the original Titans that these Seeds came from also simply don't fit as beings of the same class as Erebos, Tartarus, Gaia, Aether and so on. Their domains are often centered around much more human than material concepts, like Coeus or Mnemosyne, or around no specific and known concepts at all, like Crius.

And all this is ignoring the Titan's children not of Cronus. Like Hecates parents or Helios (who himself could be considered as having his power source in Aether or Hemera).

 

[w34v3r]

Why would any of that matter to Hecate?

 

[Darko]

There'd also likely be some hesitation about releasing Titans, or 'freeing' them. The elders don't exactly have the best reputation amongst followers of either pantheon. And god only knows what Mera or Orin would make of this if they heard about it.

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Yeah, Orin may still be harboring a grudge with Paul about not telling him about his kid.

This whole story seems off. For one, it doesn't at all divide between Titans and Primordials. It ignores that Zeus's usurpation was the second usurpation. It discards Uranus and forgets that most (actual) Titans are not one with their primordial source domain, thus making them, what, superfluous?

And this problem is not solved by merely retconing the Theogonies. Because it has been established in story that Rhea, sister-wife of Cronus, was much more of a person than an alien force. And so were the Titan Seed recreations of her siblings. And the original Titans that these Seeds came from also simply don't fit as beings of the same class as Erebos, Tartarus, Gaia, Aether and so on. Their domains are often centered around much more human than material concepts, like Coeus or Mnemosyne, or around no specific and known concepts at all, like Crius.

And all this is ignoring the Titan's children not of Cronus. Like Hecates parents or Helios (who himself could be considered as having his power source in Aether or Hemera).

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It's possible that Rhea learned how to act more like a person over time and later on taught her Titan Seed children how to do it.

Though it could be that Zoat just made a bunch of mistakes with how they work.

 

[Handlewithcare]

In the Lovecraft Mythos, Cats were the original Dreamers of Earth, using Humans as favoured servants.

Then the Dreamrealm got...corrupted? Eaten? And the cats lost (most of) their powers and devolved into what they are now.

 

[Ngamer11]

"I've got all of Venturian's spare researchers studying the Dream's connection to the material world. And I've had multiple encounters with time travellers. It wasn't hard to notice that something was off. And then there's all the internet cat videos."

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I just realized. These should say "Venturia's" and "travelers".

 

[Sordid Snake]

So the gods are Deep Sea Probes for exploring a (to the Titans) alien environment, but the Titans put so much autonomy in them that they hacked their controllers and put them into the Matrix (Hades) to be a thaumic power source.

Is Cronus eating his children an allegory for keeping them in a simulated environment and never letting them out in the real world?

 

[Mr Zoat]

That should say 'saw'.

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Remove 'it to'
'They emerge'
'looks'

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Thank you, corrected.

'forebearer'

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I don't think to.

Or maybe his racist attitudes were fairly common back then.

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He isn't exactly a racist in the modern sense of the term. He wouldn't have any problem with Kaldur, for example.

I just realized. These should say "Venturia's"

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Thank you, corrected.

and "travelers".

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Not in my country, colonial.

 

[Xelloss]

"What about the cats?"

"The c-?"

Her neck cranes towards me, her eyes narrowing.

"How do you know about that?"

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I understood that reference !

 

[BrotherofaStudio]

The cats part is...Confusing. But at least Hecate is just as confused by it as everyone else. Releasing the titans carries the risk of a titanomachy and some of the gods can be trusted with their powers and most, if not all, don't want to go back to how things used to be but I think that Paul could find a solution but Erebos. That is a problem, even though there are other afterlives, the loss of one like the Greek underworld would be devastating and I'm sure that Paul will not allow the various souls within to dissipate or wander the Earth forever or have other afterlives deal with a refugee crisis. Yeah unless Paul finds a solution of keeping the underworld functioning then Erebos cannot be released.

 

[Someguy Somewhere]

This whole story seems off. For one, it doesn't at all divide between Titans and Primordials. It ignores that Zeus's usurpation was the second usurpation. It discards Uranus and forgets that most (actual) Titans are not one with their primordial source domain, thus making them, what, superfluous?

And this problem is not solved by merely retconing the Theogonies. Because it has been established in story that Rhea, sister-wife of Cronus, was much more of a person than an alien force. And so were the Titan Seed recreations of her siblings. And the original Titans that these Seeds came from also simply don't fit as beings of the same class as Erebos, Tartarus, Gaia, Aether and so on. Their domains are often centered around much more human than material concepts, like Coeus or Mnemosyne, or around no specific and known concepts at all, like Crius.

And all this is ignoring the Titan's children not of Cronus. Like Hecates parents or Helios (who himself could be considered as having his power source in Aether or Hemera).

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It also leaves out the other pantheons entirely. Now, having Zeus and the Greek pantheon being the ones that grabbed the Titans (which I'd take a theoretical stab at existing as similar conceptual spots for the egyptian Kahndaqi and Norse groups) would explain WHY they're the pre-eminate non Abrahamic power on earth. The Titans themselves, like The Green and other magical aspects appears to be, is not limited to earth. They likely are a bit more universal, or spread between worlds as similar related aspects, while the gods are...local franchises I guess would be a good term. Releasing the Titans might just up the amount of magic in the known universe for all we know.

Honestly this is a rather scary prospect. Doing a Theological Dating Game to get a new Queen for Zeus might be easier to restore the status quo, but I don't know if thats even an option if OL keeps digging into the fundamentals of reality.

Huh....maybe just ask if Hectate is single...I figure a Triple Goddess might just let him cheat with another version of herself. Solves Both Issues.

 

[Tzeentch]

"Very well. The very basics. Titans are primordial powers born of the first fumbling attempts of the minds of mortal creatures to comprehend the universe around them. They emerge in the depths of the Dream, connected only weakly to those who first conceived of them."

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Where does that leave the Protogenoi, the Primordial Gods?

 

[Darko]

He isn't exactly a racist in the modern sense of the term. He wouldn't have any problem with Kaldur, for example.

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Though he still is a bigoted bastard and would probably have issues with Kaldur both because one of his parents isn't Atlantean and the other belongs to a group that got a non-pureblood alteration.

It also leaves out the other pantheons entirely. Now, having Zeus and the Greek pantheon being the ones that grabbed the Titans (which I'd take a theoretical stab at existing as similar conceptual spots for the egyptian Kahndaqi and Norse groups) would explain WHY they're the pre-eminate non Abrahamic power on earth. The Titans themselves, like The Green and other magical aspects appears to be, is not limited to earth. They likely are a bit more universal, or spread between worlds as similar related aspects, while the gods are...local franchises I guess would be a good term. Releasing the Titans might just up the amount of magic in the known universe for all we know.

Honestly this is a rather scary prospect. Doing a Theological Dating Game to get a new Queen for Zeus might be easier to restore the status quo, but I don't know if thats even an option if OL keeps digging into the fundamentals of reality.

Huh....maybe just ask if Hectate is single...I figure a Triple Goddess might just let him cheat with another version of herself. Solves Both Issues.

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It's possible that some of the other pantheons could have similar situations with ancient gods like the Greeks do.

Lots of religions have the gods beating some older force and using said force in some way.

The Norse had Odin and his brothers beating Ymir and using his body to create the world.

The Aztecs also had some of their gods beat some Lovecraftian crocodile monster and use its body to make the world.

Maybe these things were other versions of the Titans.

Where does that leave the Protogenoi, the Primordial Gods?

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They either don't exist or Zoat made them into Titans.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Where does that leave the Protogenoi, the Primordial Gods?

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Several possible answers to that. Hecate could be lying, she could be dumbing it down, or the Greek authors who originally wrote about them might not have understood what they were being told.

Though he still is a bigoted bastard and would probably have issues with Kaldur both because one of his parents isn't Atlantean and the other belongs to a group that got a non-pureblood alteration.

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Not at all. It's a foolish lord who criticises a servant for serving.

 

[Ngamer11]

Not at all. It's a foolish lord who criticises a servant for serving

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So Ahri'ahn's less racist and more elitist?

 

[Tzeentch]

Several possible answers to that. Hecate could be lying, she could be dumbing it down, or the Greek authors who originally wrote about them might not have understood what they were being told.

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Well, if we're dealing with the more antagonistic aspect of Hecate, then yeah, I could see her lying, although so far we're seeing her in her helpful "Mother" form, not so much the bitter, vengeful "Crone" who wants to tear Hades, Hera, and Olympus as whole a new one for screwing her over in the past after all the help she gave the Olympians.

So perhaps it could indeed be that she's dumbing it down for Paul, not putting in any separation between the Titans and the more COSMIC Primordials.

Funny thing of course, Chronos (Time) and Nyx (Night) are basically the mother and father of the Endless. Perhaps Hecate could be trying to avoid drawing the attention of her peers?

 

[Mr Zoat]

So Ahri'ahn's less racist and more elitist?

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Yes he's very elitist.

 

[Darko]

So Ahri'ahn's less racist and more elitist?

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Yes he's very elitist.

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He's both racist and elitist.

He'd be fine with someone he views as belonging to a lesser race, so long as they serve their "betters".

 

[Stsword]

He's both racist and elitist.

He'd be fine with someone he views as belonging to a lesser race, so long as they serve their "betters".

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From what I remember Zoat stating before, it's about region.

Regional stereotyping.

A black Antlantean would be an "us," a white Tritonian would still be a "them."

He created the Atlantean races, as in mermen, octopus heads, human whales, etc, based on the regional stereotypes in his head.

So the races are just visual signals of his region based elitism.

Since Kaldur and his momma are almost perfectly human in appearance, I guess he thought whatever area they were from were almost equals.

It'd be like a wizard turning all Texans into minotaurs because "everyone knows" Texans are cowboys.

 

[Pinklestia]

Source Wall, Source Wall, one way trip to the Source Wall.

 

[Vaermina]

This whole story seems off. For one, it doesn't at all divide between Titans and Primordials. It ignores that Zeus's usurpation was the second usurpation. It discards Uranus and forgets that most (actual) Titans are not one with their primordial source domain, thus making them, what, superfluous?

And this problem is not solved by merely retconing the Theogonies. Because it has been established in story that Rhea, sister-wife of Cronus, was much more of a person than an alien force. And so were the Titan Seed recreations of her siblings. And the original Titans that these Seeds came from also simply don't fit as beings of the same class as Erebos, Tartarus, Gaia, Aether and so on. Their domains are often centered around much more human than material concepts, like Coeus or Mnemosyne, or around no specific and known concepts at all, like Crius.

And all this is ignoring the Titan's children not of Cronus. Like Hecates parents or Helios (who himself could be considered as having his power source in Aether or Hemera).

Click to shrink...

It also leaves out the other pantheons entirely. Now, having Zeus and the Greek pantheon being the ones that grabbed the Titans (which I'd take a theoretical stab at existing as similar conceptual spots for the egyptian Kahndaqi and Norse groups) would explain WHY they're the pre-eminate non Abrahamic power on earth. The Titans themselves, like The Green and other magical aspects appears to be, is not limited to earth. They likely are a bit more universal, or spread between worlds as similar related aspects, while the gods are...local franchises I guess would be a good term. Releasing the Titans might just up the amount of magic in the known universe for all we know.

Honestly this is a rather scary prospect. Doing a Theological Dating Game to get a new Queen for Zeus might be easier to restore the status quo, but I don't know if thats even an option if OL keeps digging into the fundamentals of reality.

Huh....maybe just ask if Hectate is single...I figure a Triple Goddess might just let him cheat with another version of herself. Solves Both Issues.

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And this is why you don't re-write large portions of an extensive mythos so your SI can stomp around it as a unstoppable force.

 

[Michael Vonica]

And this is why you don't re-write large portions of an extensive mythos so your SI can stomp around it as a unstoppable force.

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Vaermina response.

Paul isn't an unstoppable force. He's just big enough to be able to dip his feet into the buisness of just about anyone and everyone, and just small enough that if he pisses off the wrong people, or goes about things too brashly, he will be taken out.

 

[DAT_NOOB]

Ok I'm confused did I miss something or forget, or is this something from a DC comic that involves Cats being a primordial species that just devolved to the mesoderm day version. May explain DexStar though

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I'm pretty sure there was an episode about a version of Paul who was in the Cat world in like 10,000 BC or something.

EDIT: Here

 

[Mr Zoat]

27th October 2012
07:03 GMT +3

"His power comes from the titan Aether? Where is it?" I mean, the only place-. "Is it in Olympus itself? Because the realm of the gods isn't at the literal peak of the mountain."

"No. That was at the start of the war. Zeus had nothing like the power to bind a titan like Aether." She looks thoughtful. "How much contact have you had with gods not of Olympus?"

"Little to none."

"Mm. Pity. The gods of India found a fascinating way to deal with their titans, though I doubt that you'd appreciate it."

"Why not?"

"Since they could not take the titans' power into themselves, they broke them down gradually to create a system. At one end, it is tethered by the titans. At the other, by the souls of mortal creatures, undergoing a constant cycle of life, death and rebirth. The gods would then draw power from the system, something far easier than taking power from the Dream. And less likely to render the one doing it malleable."

"Erebos allows reincarnation."

"It pales in comparison. How many shades do you think had the wherewithal to actually choose reincarnation? Besides, Erebos doesn't make value judgements about the moral quality of a person's life. Any shade being reincarnated would be reborn as a human, and the Waters of Lethe expunge all memory. It isn't part of the system and it wasn't planned."

"Okay, so..?"

She rolls her eyes dismissively. "Zeus was able to steal tiny amounts of Aether's power for himself, growing steadily stronger and stronger as Aether weakened. In the end, the conscious mind that was Aether collapsed back into the raw magic of the Dream, with Zeus having captured only a tiny fragment of him. But that was enough for him to rise in power and prominence."

"How did he work out how to do that? Zeus never struck me-"

She gives me an unimpressed look.

"-as-. You did it."

"There are limits to what the spell I devised can achieve. And I felt that having Zeus risk himself was better than taking the risk myself. He had the drive…"

I turn to Eris.

"So..?"

She slumps. "No. I wasn't born until after it was all over, remember? Or I'd totally have mainlined a chaos titan."

"Who got the chaos titans? Or chaos titan?"

"Chaos, duh. Punched a hole between parallel universes and made it their own thing."

I frown, curiously. "Why didn't you ever become a Lord of Chaos?"

She shrugs awkwardly. "If you're not all about raw power, it's not all that great a deal. You have to give up a lot, and there're a tonne of responsibilities…"

"You couldn't be bothered to put the work in."

"It didn't offer me anything I wanted! I actually kinda like being a goddess, and there wasn't anything I wanted to do that needed more power."

"'Kinda' like?"

"It's a lot less fun without worshippers, but that's fixed now." She grins, reaching up to pat me on the head. "Good work, Chaos Prophet."

"Didn't you have no worshippers for about two thousand years? And assuming that you're about as old as Hephaestus, you're only four thousand years old."

Eris fidgets awkwardly. "Three and a… Half. But I had other worshippers. There's always someone who wants to buck the system."

"Okay, so-" I look back at Hecate and-. She's ancient, paper-thin skin stretched across fragile bones, hair thin and dress just a sheet bound with a brooch. "-that was your maiden form."

"N-o, yo-u're assuming-"

I sigh, put my hands over my eyes and then turn in a circle. When I get back I'm looking at a child.

"-that I'm limited to a trinity of forms, when really I can look like anything I want."

"Lady Hecate, you can look like whoever you want. But if we return to the issue, Zeus… Doesn't have a currently alive titan he's drawing power from in the way Hades does Erebos?"

"No. He's got Metis stuck in his head. In theory she should give him wisdom."

"Is he just not listening, or..?"

The tiny child-goddess rolls her eyes. "I don't know. I was already down here by the time that happened."

"I see. That's why he's keeping the ones in Tartarus there, isn't it? So he can use their power in full."

"Not quite. He can't take power from Tartarus quite as easily as Hades can Erebos. But that is almost certainly why they're there." She sniffs. "Not that he can use all that power as things are."

I nod. "So that's quite a lot of power."

"Quite a lot of power and quite a lot of different abilities he can use if he puts his mind to it." She sniffs. "Not that I expect that he would. Still, I'm not sure where you'll find anyone who can fight him."

"No one comes to mind?"

She makes an amused noise. "If I had to select the person with the greatest chance of defeating him in the entire Hellenic mythos…"

I wait a moment.

"Yes?"

"I'd bet on you. But not with very much money."

"I assume that you still know the spell for stealing from or binding a titan?"

"It's more complex than just casting a spell. They tend to fight back. But yes, I do know it. Why?"

"Nothing yet. I'm just gathering information. Would you be willing to share it?"

"It's an interesting spell to cast. If you could find a situation for it, I would cast it for a trivial price."

"I appreciate that, thank you. And there's no one in the mythos who could fight Zeus?"

"Not presently. And if you're thinking about using the Tartarian prisoners to boost Hades or Melinoë, I will tell you now that Zeus will feel it and stop you."

"I expected, but thank you for confirming. Can-"

I turn around, and-. Canis has taken jars, their contents and their shelving and arranged them to form the image of himself and Brut mid-leap.

"-is-?"

"This is art attack!"

 

[Ngamer11]

"I expected, but thank you for confirming. Can-"

I turn around, and-. Canis has taken jars, their contents and their shelving and arranged them to form the image of himself and Brut mid-leap.

"-is-?"

"This is art attack!"

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That link takes me back. I'm guessing Canis isn't impressed by the show?