With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[DAT_NOOB]

EVERYONE, you are taking the question of the alleged rape of Persephone from the wrong direction.

Persephone's beliefs are irrelevant to the sex being rape, what is important is whether Hades had reasonable grounds to believe she was consenting. (no that doesn't include her not saying no).

 

[Mastigos2]

"I have lived in fear of that man for longer than your people have had the wheel. There is nothing."

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Yeaaaah ... this was why "divorce then woo and court her" didn't seem a viable option to me.

 

[Breadnaught]

My key point is reasonable fear.

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And that's where your argument falls down. He petitioned the head of household, as was custom, for the right to marry his crush. As far as Hades knew, Zeus got the green light from Persephone and Demeter, then granted him approval.

So he swung by to pick her up and begin their honeymoon, and no one, including Persephone, mentioned that she hadn't been consulted or approved. In fact, due to the misunderstanding, she put on an act and went along with Hades, tricking him into thinking everything was copasetic.

Zeus half-assed his duties.
Persephone misjudged the situation.
Hades was tricked.

It's absurdity to think it was reasonable/expected for Hades to assume that Persephone had no knowledge of the pre-planned and arranged pick up, and was putting on an act because of her own misunderstanding.

 

[Senevri]

Winter happens because that side of the planet is facing away from the sun.

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No, that would be why NIGHT happens.

Winter happens on the hemisphere that is leaning away from the sun due to axial tilt, but I'm not sure how to put that patronizingly enough for OL.

 

[Mr Zoat]

My key point is reasonable fear. It isn't reasonable for the shop assistant in your scenario to be afraid of their customer and is perfectly reasonable for Persephone to be afraid of Hades in their specific situation.

It also would have been incredibly easy for Hades to have let Persephone know that she could freely end their relationship and that he would never harm her. All it would take is a single conversation or a promise on the Styx if she is unwilling to accept his word. His failure to do anything that could have given Persephone the option of safely escaping their relations for thousands of years makes me think that he is deliberately letting her remain afraid in order to maintain the status quo. He must certainly be doing so now if he does nothing to improve the situation now that it has become impossible to ignore that Persephone is only continuing their relationship out of fear. This would make his actions fall directly under the accepted definition of assault due to the threat of harm.

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By the customs of the time, that wasn't something he was supposed to do. Asking if she actually wanted to marry his was something that Zeus was supposed to do as head of her household. Hades acted in accordance with their customs by asking Zeus rather than Persephone herself or Demeter. While it would have been more sensible to check himself, that might have implied that he thought that Zeus lied to him, which would have been a serious insult.

A more comparable example would be a heavily armed man coming into a store every day and grapping items off the shelves before immediately leaving without paying. The shop owner would attempt to get outside assistance only to fail miserably as the corrupt laws of their community make what the man is doing perfectly legal. Their family tries to help out but the man is too strong for them to achieve anything but get the man to reduce his visits to once every other day. The man eventually starts giving minor gifts to the shop owner and taking less expensive items. He never stops taking items or gives any indication that he plans to stop in the future.

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No, a comparable example would be a single man getting permission from a store manager to borrow an employee to help with putting up some lights that they bought. The employee could refuse at any time as that sort of thing isn't covered by their contract of employment, but they don't. After the lights are put up, the employee's mother accuses the man of kidnapping.

No, that would be why NIGHT happens.

Winter happens on the hemisphere that is leaning away from the sun due to axial tilt, but I'm not sure how to put that patronizingly enough for OL.

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Thank you, corrected.

 

[Ct613hulu]

And that's where your argument falls down. He petitioned the head of household, as was custom, for the right to marry his crush. As far as Hades knew, Zeus got the green light from Persephone and Demeter, then granted him approval.

So he swung by to pick her up and begin their honeymoon, and no one, including Persephone, mentioned that she hadn't been consulted or approved. In fact, due to the misunderstanding, she put on an act and went along with Hades, tricking him into thinking everything was copasetic.

Zeus half-assed his duties.
Persephone misjudged the situation.
Hades was tricked.

It's absurdity to think it was reasonable/expected for Hades to assume that Persephone had no knowledge of the pre-planned and arranged pick up, and was putting on an act because of her own misunderstanding.

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I agree that there was enough confusion when this whole situation started for Hade's culpability to be greatly reduced. He should have done better, but the primary blame is with Zeus.

What I don't get is how Hades isn't responsible for the situation continuing on for thousands of years. It just doesn't make sense for him to never catch on that Persephone was only with him out of fear. Once he did realize this it seems like the only moral course of action would be for Hades to assure Persephone that he had no intentions of punishing her for rejecting him and that she was free to end their relationship at any point. There doesn't seem to be any reason for their relationship to have continued for so long when it is obvious that Persephone strongly wants it to end that doesn't say some terrible things about Hades.

 

[m_d]

Mr Zoat, I'm going to preface this by saying that I'm well aware that I'm merely a reader enjoying reading this work, and you are free to write it however you like. You can write a character and we can disagree about the significance of their actions without stopping you from enjoying the writing and me from the reading of it. I'm aiming for something friendly. That said, here are some notes:

So, as an example, you can write Persephone as being weak-willed, and as other commenters have said, we can interpret her actions as indications of other things. I'm fortunate not to have personally experienced this situation or a close analogue, but I have read credible accounts that I would interpret to mean that pretending that everything is as it should be, not letting on how you really feel and giving up the game when faced with unspeakable choices, enduring, when slipping up can have terrifying consequences, takes tremendous fortitude and level-headedness. This isn't only in the realm of coercive relationships, but also for people in espionage, statecraft, resistance movements, and other endeavours.

https://forum.questionablequesting....i-thread-fourteen.8938/page-1731#post-5542990

Belief is not reality. Persephone did believe that. That didn't make it true. It wasn't true. The reality is that Persephone could have said 'no' at any time. Or just said 'let me just talk to my mother really quickly'. Her being weak-willed doesn't make Hades a criminal.

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You realize that that works the other way around too? And Hades probably comes off worse in that. Perception doesn't make it real? Okay.

Persephone believed that Hades expected her to be his wife in all ways (actually true), and that there would be severe consequences if she failed in that role (in terms of sex, apparently not, as far as we know, but still up in the air as far as actually ceasing to be his wife - and Paul believes that it's credible enough that he's advocating against divorce). As a result, she went along with what he said he wanted even though she did not want to and quite likely would not have freely consented to if asked.

According to Hephaestus, and you, Hades believed he did the proper thing and talked to Zeus to have him talk to his daughter and her mother about whether he could marry his niece. He trusted Zeus to do right by his daughter and her mother and actually give permission for the marriage with their knowledge and consent, and everything that went with that. He believed that Zeus was trustworthy and he didn't need to verify this with Persephone or her mother… As a result he believed that Persephone was fine with and consented to the marriage and sex. Neither of these were true. Let me say that again. He believed that the thing that makes it not rape - the consent of his partner - existed. "That didn't make it true. It wasn't true." And he bears substantial responsibility for putting her in that situation, as well as not taking seriously enough the possibility that the situation could exist (see, not establishing a relationship of trust). He also had less reason to believe that false belief than Persephone had reason to believe that it would be dangerous to refuse Hades.

Both of them could have cleared up that mismatch between belief and reality. The cost to each for the attempt to do so as measured by a reasonable expectation of consequences for someone in their position would be phenomenally lower for Hades than Persephone's terrifying heights. So what makes Hades' false belief less a fault than Persephone's false belief exactly? You seem to have placed more weight on Persephone's failure to trust that Hades would take a no (against reason) than Hades failure to verify a yes (when Zeus, so trustworthy about establishing consent, is saying what he wants to hear). You say that checking himself would imply that Zeus lied to him, with implied consequences for the insult. There is such a thing as discretion. And when he's got Persephone in his domain, who is going to know? There's time between getting some privacy and getting married and consummating the marriage.

All that said, I found these chapters quite interesting. We don't actually know what Hades actually thinks currently about his marriage and Persephone from his mouth. Persephone fears him, but may not need to. Paul and Hephaestaean are concerned that a divorce will "blow up in our faces", though, from what Hephaestus said back in Grind, he doesn't actually know but really doesn't want to guess wrong due to the possible magnitude of the consequences, but I don't know that either of them have actually talked with him about the possibility. I still hope that Hades in all his years as a judge has learned some things and come to some realizations about ways you can treat someone who you love but doesn't love you back, and moreover, finds being stuck married to you …unhealthy? stressful? dispiriting? A situation that you might not actually wish for your beloved? Now that Zeus and Hera's positions are different, perhaps he can think of a better arrangement that both he and Persephone can live with.

I look forward to the coming chapters.

 

[crazygrox]

That sounds a little like a child soldier. In fact, it is a child soldier.

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Not if you're not sending them to do fighting.

And possibly not if you're just keeping them away from any fighting that could be characterized as a war.

Paul does a lot of non-fighting work, from investigation, to diplomacy, to transporting things and people.
If the team actually reliably followed orders to stick to scouting, then having another younger lantern along who stays back and provides scans would be valuable, and let parts of their training be offloaded to group exercises, but things always spiral out of control, so even if it might theoretically be fine, practical experience proves it isn't.

 

[Breadnaught]

What I don't get is how Hades isn't responsible for the situation continuing on for thousands of years. It just doesn't make sense for him to never catch on that Persephone was only with him out of fear.

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By all accounts, this came to light a long time ago. He apologised, gave her space, and has spent the last few thousand years trying to improve their relationship and patch things up. Trying to win her heart.

Based on the number of kids, and the demonstrated character of Hades in this fic, I don't think he ever forced the issue, so apparently Persephone has been in the mood for a good tumble/wanted children a number of times over the years. It's just that she doesn't love him, and feels stuck in a functional, but loveless relationship.

As for Hades not just letting her go, she's currently talking about petitioning Hephaestion for the right to divorce, so I'm not sure on the social structure and customs involved there. I could well believe that Zeus just refused to change his mind and grant them a seperation.

Of course, it's possible Hades is also refusing, determined to make it work. Guess we'll see.

 

[Radix]

Something occurs to me. What if this is just a repeat and Hades immediately says yes because he loves her enough to let her go. It has only been the assesment or others that he wont let her be divorced.

 

[Ct613hulu]

By all accounts, this came to light a long time ago. He apologised, gave her space, and has spent the last few thousand years trying to improve their relationship and patch things up. Trying to win her heart.

Based on the number of kids, and the demonstrated character of Hades in this fic, I don't think he ever forced the issue, so apparently Persephone has been in the mood for a good tumble/wanted children a number of times over the years. It's just that she doesn't love him, and feels stuck in a functional, but loveless relationship.

As for Hades not just letting her go, she's currently talking about petitioning Hephaestion for the right to divorce, so I'm not sure on the social structure and customs involved there. I could well believe that Zeus just refused to change his mind and grant them a seperation.

Of course, it's possible Hades is also refusing, determined to make it work. Guess we'll see.

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Keep in mind that Persephone says "I have lived in fear of that man for longer than your people have had the wheel. There is nothing" in this latest chapter when she asks for a divorce and OL bring up the possibility of reconciliation. I interpreted this quote (along with all of the other mentions of Persephone doing everything she can to distance herself from Hades) as a clear indicator that she always wanted to end her relationship with Hades and never stopped being afraid of him. This is far worse than a simple loveless relationship.

 

[Duke Long]

To the people suggesting time travel, doesn't time travel now work in such a way that it actually creates a new timeline rather than changing the current one? In that case, Paul would just be creating a universe where the problem is fixed while abandoning one where it still exists.

 

[Darko]

Based on the number of kids, and the demonstrated character of Hades in this fic, I don't think he ever forced the issue, so apparently Persephone has been in the mood for a good tumble/wanted children a number of times over the years

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That's not necessarily true.

Given her feelings towards him she either thought she didn't have much of a choice or she had all their kids before Hades figured out that she didn't know what was happening.

To the people suggesting time travel, doesn't time travel now work in such a way that it actually creates a new timeline rather than changing the current one? In that case, Paul would just be creating a universe where the problem is fixed while abandoning one where it still exists.

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Who can say at this point.

Time travel is weird as fuck.

 

[Breadnaught]

Keep in mind that Persephone says "I have lived in fear of that man for longer than your people have had the wheel. There is nothing" in this latest chapter when she asks for a divorce and OL bring up the possibility of reconciliation. I interpreted this quote (along with all of the other mentions of Persephone doing everything she can to distance herself from Hades) as a sign clear indicator that she always wanted to end her relationship with Hades and never stopped being afraid of him. This is far worse than a simple loveless relationship.

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But every other account indicates he's no intention of harming her, apologised and gave her space once the misunderstanding came to light, and is only trying to make their relationship work.

The referenced sentence seems to be an outlier, and possibly just hyperbole.

Given her feelings towards him she either thought she didn't have much of a choice or she had all their kids before Hades figured out that she didn't know what was happening.

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I suppose it's possible she kept up the act and didn't reveal she was unhappy with the relationship for the years needed to have the kids, but it's seems implausible.

 

[Splinterface]

Something occurs to me. What if this is just a repeat and Hades immediately says yes because he loves her enough to let her go. It has only been the assesment or others that he wont let her be divorced.

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Hope that happens. Obvs if you love someone you let them free, but I think most people aren't holding their breath on that because ostensibly he loved her the past thousands of years, and I think we probably could've released her at any point then. I don't Zeus would've cared. Maybe laughed at his brother? Doesn't seem like he'd get his toga in a twist over it.

 

[m_d]

Based on the number of kids, and the demonstrated character of Hades in this fic, I don't think he ever forced the issue, so apparently Persephone has been in the mood for a good tumble/wanted children a number of times over the years.

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That's a misrepresentation. Assuming that the section below is correct, they only had two offspring in this story, and they're close to the same age. Zagreus was conceived early enough that that those seeds were considered the "pomegranate seeds" that prevented Persephone from leaving. According to Hephaestus, both he and Melinoë were conceived before she trusted Hades enough to say no. After she could, they never shared a bed again.

From Grind (part 2)

"Whatever the reason, the famine happened. Zeus had to admit to Hades that he hadn't talked to either of them, a divorce was unthinkable…"

"And the pomegranate seeds?"

Hephaestus scoffs. "Given when Zagreus was born, I think we can take a guess at what sort of seeds he was putting inside her. Which would explain why he wasn't willing to accept a separation."

"So why didn't he raise him as a philosopher-king?"

"Because at that point in his life, he wasn't interested in that sort of thing."

I nod. "And unlike most gods, Hades is faithful to his wife."

Hephaestus nods. "Unlike most gods, Hades actually loves his wife. Though… I suppose… Shades can't beget children. We wouldn't necessarily know."

Donna shakes her head. "Hades and Persephone have two children, don't they? I've never met Zagreus-"

"He works on a game reserve in Kenya. I get postcards, sometimes."

"-but we've both met Melinoë. What's stopping them having more children?"

Oh. I get it. "Zagreus and Melinoë are about the same age, aren't they?"

Hephaestus nods again. "Hades thought that once Persephone got to know him a bit better, she'd warm up to him. As far as I know? Never happened. But once she knew him well enough to realise that he wouldn't force himself on her, wife or not, that was the last time they shared a bed."

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[Darko]

That's a misrepresentation. They only had two offspring, and they're close to the same age. Zagreus was conceived early enough that that those seeds were considered the "pomegranate seeds" that prevented Persephone from leaving. According to Hephaestus, both he and Melinoë were conceived before she trusted Hades enough to say no. After she could, they never shared a bed again.

From Grind (part 2)

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There was another daughter mentioned, but she only showed up in a bit role in a previous chapter that I can't remember.

 

[Breadnaught]

That's a misrepresentation. They only had two offspring, and they're close to the same age. Zagreus was conceived early enough that that those seeds were considered the "pomegranate seeds" that prevented Persephone from leaving. According to Hephaestus, both he and Melinoë were conceived before she trusted Hades enough to say no. After she could, they never shared a bed again.

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Hmm, must have mis-remembered. I thought there was others, aside from Melinoë and Zagreus.

 

[Darko]

Hmm, must have mis-remembered. I thought there was others, aside from Melinoë and Zagreus.

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There was another daughter that's connected to pleasant deaths, but she only appeared once and I don't think she said anything.

 

[Ct613hulu]

But every other account indicates he's no intention of harming her, apologised and gave her space once the misunderstanding came to light, and is only trying to make their relationship work.

The referenced sentence seems to be an outlier, and possibly just hyperbole.

I suppose it's possible she kept up the act and didn't reveal she was unhappy with the relationship for the years needed to have the kids, but it's seems implausible.

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He let Persephone build her own palace and didn't rape her after the birth of their first two children. That is still far from letting her live her life as a free woman. She is forced to spend half of her life in the Underworld and will always be restricted by the many social complications that would come from being the wife of Hades. It must have been essentially impossible for her to pursue any love or happiness outside of the life Hades forced on her. This all before we get into the horror that comes from being forced to live under the control of someone who (this is true from her perspective and thus traumatic) kidnapped and raped her.

A moral and healthy relationship needs to be built on the consent of all the parties involved. The desire of one party for a loving relationship can't possibly be sufficient to justify coercing another party to stay in the relationship. That is exactly what Hades is doing when he stops Persephone from ending their relationship as she has clearly wanted to do for a very long time.

Why does it seem implausible that a woman terrified of her husband and completely cut off for any means of escape would simply do whatever he says without resisting? That is pretty much a textbook definition of spousal abuse. Please don't tell me you are trying to say that a women can only get pregnant as a result of sex with someone she loves.

 

[Assblaster5000]

To the people suggesting time travel, doesn't time travel now work in such a way that it actually creates a new timeline rather than changing the current one? In that case, Paul would just be creating a universe where the problem is fixed while abandoning one where it still exists.

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Who can say at this point.

Time travel is weird as fuck.

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Time was changed to work like that back during The Crisis Of Infinite Pauls by Time Trapper Paul. I'm not really sure how many universes the change covers, especially given that WTR seems to take place in a truly infinite multiverse, but we can reasonably say it's in place for Universe 16 at a minimum since it covers both Paragon and Mandated Paul.

 

[Breadnaught]

Why does it seem implausible that a woman terrified of her husband and completely cut off for any means of escape would simply do whatever he says without resisting? That is pretty much a textbook definition of spousal abuse.

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Of-fucking-course it's plausible for a terrified person to do what they're told without resisting. No one said anything different. People are just pointing out that the punishment she feared was entirely in her own head due to a (perhaps reasonable, perhaps not) misunderstanding.

Please don't tell me you are trying to say that a women can only get pregnant as a result of sex with someone she loves.

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You can cut that shit out right now. No one said anything of the kind and you fucking know it, so stop trying to virtue signal with this strawmanning crap.

 

[Ct613hulu]

Of-fucking-course it's plausible for a terrified person to do what they're told without resisting. No one said anything different. People are just pointing out that the punishment she feared was entirely in her own head due to a (perhaps reasonable, perhaps not) misunderstanding.

You can cut that shit out right now. No one said anything of the kind and you fucking know it, so stop trying to virtue signal with this strawmanning crap.

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Sorry if it came off that way. This was meant as a genuine request for clarification and not an accusation.

It seemed to me that you were arguing that Persephone must have been accepting of her relationship with Hades as it is impossible for a woman unhappy with their relationship to have children when you said "I suppose it's possible she kept up the act and didn't reveal she was unhappy with the relationship for the years needed to have the kids, but it's seems implausible.". I don't understand your argument in this sentence if that is not the case.

What exactly do you find implausible about Persephone "keeping up the act" long enough to have kids? As I mentioned, this is something that is tragically common in real life.

 

[Breadnaught]

It seemed to me that you were arguing that Persephone must have been accepting of her relationship with Hades as it is impossible for a woman unhappy with their relationship to have children when you said "I suppose it's possible she kept up the act and didn't reveal she was unhappy with the relationship for the years needed to have the kids, but it's seems implausible.". I don't understand your argument in this sentence if that is not the case.

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Partially due to me mis-remembering things, I thought they had more kids. Meaning, I thought Persephone had been in the mood and they'd shared a bed occasionally over the years. Implying a relationship that was loveless, but apparently functional. Basically something like roommates that occasionally bang. Another poster suggested that she'd been maintaining the act all that time, which I didn't think was super plausible.

Then another poster dug up a quote and corrected that. Turns out they'd just had the twins early on, then she told him about the misunderstanding. He apologised and they haven't shared a bed since.

Based on the quote, I get the impression that, at the time at least, both Zeus was digging his heals in and refused to admit he was wrong and revoke his blessing, and Hades wasn't willing to push for a separation while she was pregnant/they had small children. I think.

 

[DrThoth]

Then another poster dug up a quote and corrected that. Turns out they'd just had the twins early on, then she told him about the misunderstanding. He apologised and they haven't shared a bed since.

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Minor correction but they're not twins, they were just born fairly close together in time because of, well, everything we've been discussing the past 2 pages of the thread.

 

[Ct613hulu]

I actually enjoy the idea of Persephone and Hades as "roommates who bang". This seems like it could be an interesting symbolic representation of the symbiotic relationship between fertility and death. I do faintly recall some takes on this theme with modern fiction that sought to re-imagine the myth of Persephone. It is somewhat disappointing that Mr Zoat didn't go in this direction as I enjoy see Hades depicted as a great ruler and beloved patriarch. I would also have liked for there to be at least one healthy relationship in the Olympic Pantheon. Hopefully we can expect to see one soon now that there is nothing stopping Athena and Hephaestean from getting together as full partners.

Your post also makes me think about how Persephone relates to her children. Both of them seem to have taken totally after their father as they draw power directly from Erebos and don't seem to have any metaphysical or personal connection to the Green. Does this indicate that Persephone didn't develop a maternal bond with them and they responded by treating Hades as their primary parent? Is it a simple consequence of them being born in the Underworld or them only inheriting the attributes of their stronger parent? I think that these questions provide an opportunity for further worldbuilding on the nature of Divine Families and the creation of new Gods.

 

[Darko]

Your post also makes me think about how Persephone relates to her children. Both of them seem to have taken totally after their father as they draw power directly from Erebos and don't seem to have any metaphysical or personal connection to the Green. Does this indicate that Persephone didn't develop a maternal bond with them and they responded by treating Hades as their primary parent? Is it a simple consequence of them being born in the Underworld or only inheriting the attributes of their stronger parent? I think that these questions provide an opportunity for further worldbuilding on the nature of Divine Families and the creation of new Gods

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Zagreus is connected to rebirth, which Persephone also shares, so he may have inherited that from her.

 

[Stsword]

I disagree with the idea that counseling would be useless.

If Hades actually loves Persephone instead of it being an obsession, than her misery is his misery. Love is that condition in which the happiness of another person is essential to your own as the saying goes.

So if he actually loves Persephone, then he's been miserable for millennia because she's been miserable for millennia and doesn't want the misery to stop.

That's some real toxic self destructive shit there.

 

[Vaermina]

Time was changed to work like that back during The Crisis Of Infinite Pauls by Time Trapper Paul. I'm not really sure how many universes the change covers, especially given that WTR seems to take place in a truly infinite multiverse, but we can reasonably say it's in place for Universe 16 at a minimum since it covers both Paragon and Mandated Paul.

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Of course, another person might have come around and changed it back since then.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Based on the quote, I get the impression that, at the time at least, both Zeus was digging his heals in and refused to admit he was wrong and revoke his blessing, and Hades wasn't willing to push for a separation while she was pregnant/they had small children. I think.

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That's not quite it. Before Hera got smashed and Eris decided to stir shit to see what would happen, Olympians didn't divorce. It wasn't a thing. Hephaestus literally caught his wife and her lover at it and all he got was some cash back. Have a read about Ancient Greek attitudes to faithfulness. They most certainly did not have our modern attitude towards dissolving marriages.

Your post also makes me think about how Persephone relates to her children. Both of them seem to have taken totally after their father as they draw power directly from Erebos and don't seem to have any metaphysical or personal connection to the Green. Does this indicate that Persephone didn't develop a maternal bond with them and they responded by treating Hades as their primary parent? Is it a simple consequence of them being born in the Underworld or them only inheriting the attributes of their stronger parent? I think that these questions provide an opportunity for further worldbuilding on the nature of Divine Families and the creation of new Gods.

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No, she's fine with them. Their bond to Erebos is more due to them being conceived there and growing up there than closeness to one parent over another.