With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[Chojin Patriarch]

30th October 2012
06:10 GMT +3

"So, your mother spoke to me."

Zagreus nods, awkwardly. "I imagine that she spoke to you about a divorce."

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And as (I assume) the eldest child, he's probably got the most insight into their relationship and whether it can be salvaged, or if a scorched-earth approach is better. Or perhaps have some alternative angle to look at the 'problem' from.

Spoiler: Commentary spoilered for length

"Yes, she did. I want to ask you how you feel about it."

He shrugs unhappily. "I don't remember how old I was when I realised that… My parent's relationship wasn't right. It was a long time before Father had his revelation about how he could make something of Erebos. Mother… She wasn't ever cold towards me, or to Macaria or Melinoë. But Father spent a lot of time… Away from where she brought us up."

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Which was kind of expected. Besides the traditional distance a Hellenic man would have in terms of child-rearing, Hades would be well aware of how she felt...

"I was mostly wondering about their relationship now."

"Father hopes that she could get interested in the gardens the awakened shades have created."

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To be fair, that is an impressive feat. She would be well aware of the difficulty in cultivation here.

"Is she?"

"She.. was, a little. She just left whenever Father was there, and… Since he was justifiably proud of what his people had achieved with his aid and he wanted to share it with her, he was always there in the hope that she'd suddenly come around."

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Well, that didn't go as planned, then. And I can't help imagine this playing out with the chibi designs of Overly Sarcastic Productions, and it makes it even more heartbreaking...

"Zagreus, I'm being asked to make a decision about something I know very little about. Is there..? Do you think, any chance that your mother-."

"No. Honestly, I… Think that Father should have divorced her centuries ago. At this point they're just making one another miserable."

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It's that bad, then, if even the children agree on that. I wonder what the daughters would have to say?

"Has your mother given any indication as to what she would look for in a husband if she were unattached?"

"Ah-. No. That… The Gods of Olympus don't have no-fault divorce. If one party wrongs the other, things get settled in the wronged party's favour. She might have ended up being down here full time if she'd.. done anything-."

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Because of the insult that would imply to Zeus, of course. Big Dick Sparky getting his way again.

"No, no, I meant, in theory. I'm trying to work out whether or not she might have accepted your father as her husband if they'd had a better introduction."

"Do.. you.. have a time machine?"

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No, that wouldn't help. As far as OL knows, the mechanics of time wouldn't allow that kind of easy tweaking. Never mind the paradox involved.

"No, and that wouldn't work anyway. I changed the way time travel works so that it generates parallel timelines if you change anything significant. I was thinking, what would happen if we dosed them with the waters of the Lethe?"

"The whole.. point of the Lethe is to erase memories prior to rebirth. They would be mental infants. I.. don't.. think that's a good solution."

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Not if OL has his way. I mean, he just said 'he' changed the way time works. Surprised Zagreus didn't give him more than a 'is he serious?' pause. Or is he just assuming OL is using dramatic hyperbole?

"How about a reduced dose?"

"What, exactly, are you trying to do?"

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Well... Remember Hecate's little water park?

"Ideally, I'd want to remove every memory she had to interacting with him, and let him woo her from a clean slate. Obviously, she would have to agree to that in order for it to happen."

"She would forget Melinoë and Macaria. And me."

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Also, would she consider that anyway? If she has any thoughts on the nature of, well, herself... She's defined herself for thousands of years as 'Hades' reluctant wife'. Can she even imagine what she might be without that weight having driven her?

"That's why I'm hoping that it's possible to narrow the effect. Hecate's people have been working with it."

"They were making it into normal water, not anything else."

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But there's still the byproducts. That stuff can't just have disappeared, after all.

"But that still required them to understand how it works. And if they don't know how to do it, we could ask Mnemosyne and Metis to chip in."

"You're still talking about erasing thousands of years worth of memories."

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Mostly memories she's unhappy about, but yes. Would she want to take the risk of waking up as a whole other person? Who knows, besides her?

"What is Persephone's contribution to human civilisation?"

"She increases plant vitality and fertility during spring."

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...In the Hellenic regions, at least. And really, That can't really take up that much of her time... Maybe if she follows Hera's example, she could become a gardening show host?

"But she isn't the reason for it. Plants would still grow without her."

His expression hardens. "I don't appreciate you implying that my mother has wasted her life."

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No, no, I'm sure he just means that without her, the Hellenes might have had more difficulty in farming the region...

"Normally I'd say that if the person doing it was happy then they weren't wasting it even if they didn't help anyone else. But from the sounds of things she isn't."

He gestures towards the orchard with his right hand. "Do you think that Erebos would be this verdant if Father wasn't trying to impress her?"

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...Maybe? The problem is, we only keep hearing about Hades' part in things. Maybe if he actually tried to press Persephone about this, he'd really find out how she feels...

"I'm not talking about rewriting history, I'm talking about rewriting-. Honestly, yes, because he was trying to create the most perfect kingdom ever having been influenced by Enlightenment European ideas, which would probably have included leisure gardens, but we're getting off the point. An objective valuation of Persephone's life isn't relevant. The fact that she's not happy and wants a change is."

He hesitates for a moment.

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Okay, now you're getting somewhere, OL. Stop thinking of this as a problem to be solved, and start thinking of it as 'What does Persephone want? Will getting it make her happy?'

"Yes."

"Do you have a better idea? Because if you do I'll be extremely happy to consider it."

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If he did, he would have tried it centuries ago, though. Unless he was afraid of Zeus' response.

"I just don't think that their relationship can be fixed."

"Do you know how to convince your father of that fact?"

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...How could he not know?

"I think he knows. I think-. He.. must."

"Just get him to say it, then I can talk to Hephaestaean and we can get the divorce formalised. Off you go."

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Usually it's the Gods giving out impossible quests to Mortals, not the other way around...

Zagreus's doesn't move. After a few second, his face starts to fall.

"'Failure is simply the opportunity to begin again, this time more intelligently.'"

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Now, let's not all get lost in discussing what they could have done better, we've beaten that dead horse into glue.

"Yep. He loves her, despite her never returning that affection. He has done for millennia, even during his worse times. He isn't going too change now, because there isn't any.. further level of rejection she would go to. What could have changed today that might make him rethink?"

"Nothing, curse you."

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I know it hurts to have to acknowledge that, but watch your words.

"What are you cursing me for? My personal life is very simple."

"What do you want me to do?"

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And OL has another moment of 'Well, finally! If people would just ask that first, we could save so much time and effort!'

"Talk to your parents about what's happening, and ask what they'd be willing to consider regarding extreme measures at marriage counselling. This isn't going away and there's no point in putting it off any further."

"And what will you do?"

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He's going to do Science! to magic things.

"I'm going to talk to Hecate and Company about what can be achieved with the water of the Lethe. And reassure her about the rehabilitation of the Titans and a dozen other things. I suggest talking to your mother first, as she'll want the reassurance that something is actually happening."

"I agree. I will speak with you tomorrow."

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At least someone is going to ask her about her opinion on things. Or Hecate will tell OL 'No, it doesn't work that way, you stupid man.' and he'll have to find some other mad plan.

Honestly, at this point... Erasing her memory wouldn't fix this. Or at least, not hers alone. What would the outcome be, I wonder, if both Persephone and Hades undergoing this - still theoretical, mind - process, and see if they can both start with a fresh slate in their existence? But then, what happens to their personalities? Both have them have been shaped by this issue over millennia. Would they still be the people they are now if it had never happened? Food for thought, and for discussion?

 

[Doccer]

Granted, like I said in a previous post, if she wants this to happen then it can honestly be more like a tragedy similar to someone using drugs or a lobotomy to deal with their pain.

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I agree. This seems icky.
If it was say, forgeting because she just can't have a relationship with anyone else because this whole thing has soured the experience to try even if she wants to. I'd get it. Still egh.
But this only to go back? It seems icky and keeping it conditional on her say so is the only thing keeping it remotely viable.

 

[Handlewithcare]

snip

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Agreed, this seems messed up.

My hope at this point is that Hades learns of this plan, realises how messed up it is and that's what he finally needs to decide to let her go.

Any other outcome is just wrong.

It's a bad ending for Hades, but the other endings are worse.

 

[Senevri]

This is fucked up. I would hate, with vitriolic passion, anyone who fucking memory wiped me

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It's really only fucked up without consent. Forgetting isn't inherently a bad thing. Especially if it can help you get over trauma. That being said there are several ways how this could go wrong.
Now, I'm sure the memory gods can back up the memory just in case.

Most fun option? Paul gets a Lethe dose and we have an episode of semi-retro-Paul shenanigans.

 

[DrThoth]

I may not approve of the Lethe-water plan for reasons already mentioned by others (though I guess I'm glad to have 'called it', but I do think developing specialized Lethe-water would be a useful weapon to add to Paragon's arsenal, so I hope that gets expanded upon. It would be nice to see Mnemosyne pitching in and also thanking Paragon for rescuing her daughter Calliope (I forget if she was imprisoned but the Muses are usually her kids with Zeus, so I don't believe so?).

Hephaestaean may value Hades's work ethic and initiative as being in line with his vision for the Olympians going forward, but ultimately Hades is an administrator. Actual death is facilitated by Thanatos, after all, and if mass production becomes a thing Hephaestaean could create a ton of robot duplicate bodies to project his consciousness to and help administrate the underworld or whatever (like the Superman robot from the Silver Age). Paragon not wanting to sour his up till now positive relationship with Hades is understandable from his personal orange-tinged and fairly utilitarian perspective, but like in most things I hope that other characters step up more to show that ambition and the drive to act aren't just the province of SI characters (Hera most prominently, Ghi'ata or Dame Carol, Aphrodite, maybe an ambitious god of love who wants to get in good with the new boss- I think there's specifically a god of unrequited love out there as part of the Erotes). If Paragon worked at getting the 3 kids on his side, that'll probably sway Hades's mind more, but I can appreciate from a character perspective that that's not what he'll pursue as his first path. He might talk to Diana about it first, I feel like she should have secured a firm, more generalized promise from him about matters related to overthrowing/killing deities and mystical figures after everything that just went down.

Maybe Hades will volunteer to either get does with the Lethe-water instead, as others have mentioned, or have his love supernaturally deadened/removed by whatever god can possibly do that. Though it would be really nice to see talking and less extreme measures being implemented first. Like Hephaestus said before his ascension, he wasn't talking to Paragon because he wanted measured advice. Though it's not like Paragon is averse to talking, he just usually also wants to carry the big stick, as it were.

 

[Darko]

It's really only fucked up without consent. Forgetting isn't inherently a bad thing. Especially if it can help you get over trauma. That being said there are several ways how this could go wrong

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Yes, forgetting isn't necessarily a completely bad thing, but it kinda is in this case since the one that will be forgetting things would be doing so that she can forget the trauma a man caused her and will probably still have to spend time with said man.

Like I mentioned in my previous posts; it's like taking drugs or having a lobotomy.

 

[Old Knife]

Why not go all the way. Temporarily
wipe both parent's memories. Send Hades and Persephone to live normal human lives and see if they fall in love. Obviously an excuse for a drama arc.
Will they risk it all???


Have Zag and kin run the underworld in the interm.

And watch people try to sabotage the experiment I mean test of worthiness.

 

[Splinterface]

Hades hasn't hurt Paul or tried to hurt anyone Paul cares about, so he doesn't have the same extreme reaction he had like when he chose to get rid of Zeus.

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Yeah, we know that too and we think that's bad is our general point.

 

[Splinterface]

Why not go all the way. Temporarily
wipe both parent's memories. Send Hades and Persephone to live normal human lives and see if they fall in love. Obviously an excuse for a drama arc.
Will they risk it all???


Have Zag and kin run the underworld in the interm.

And watch people try to sabotage the experiment I mean test of worthiness.

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I don't see that ending well as soon as Persephone gets her memories back.

 

[Silveraith]

Zagreus's doesn't move. After a few second, his face starts to fall.

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Seconds.

 

[Dur'id the Druid]

Then talk to Hera goddess of marriage, divine counseling should be in her wheelhouse.

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Agreed. Honestly this is looking like a Constantine solution.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Seconds.

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Thank you, corrected.

 

[Old Knife]

I don't see that ending well as soon as Persephone gets her memories back.

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She has to consent first. A way to allow her her freedom while allowing Hades a chance to woo her without the baggage.

Zeus coming in and throwing a spanner in the works also adds the drama.

 

[Radix]

Paul is a utilitarian who has gone a bit far from the sort of mindset most of the readers are used to dealing with, so his decisions and attitudes are going to be strange in places. As someone with an interest in psychology (not a degree, just an interest), studying his behavior is part of why I still read this fic.

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Paul isnt a utilitarian. He very clearly has shown deontology in his actions. Particularly in how "something of his" was treated. If he was a utilitarian he would have had to accept Nabu as a net good and been more accomodating. But he went straight to murder.

 

[m_d]

Most fun option? Paul gets a Lethe dose and we have an episode of semi-retro-Paul shenanigans.

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That could be fun indeed.

A difficulty I see with this plan that I haven't seen people mention yet: Assume that Paul and company work out the Lethe mechanics and Persephone agrees with the idea (huge assumption, but bear with me). After she forgets Hades in the context of marriage, she's still Persephone, just without that part of her life. Only there are millions of people alive, and, hmm, given who they are, this is relevant, millions more who once were alive, who know the story of her and Hades. There are hundreds, probably more, who she actually interacts with in the lands of the dead, to whom she is Queen Persephone. When she hears about what happened, however far into the future that is, whether Hades is successful in his suit or not, and she eventually will… Does she believe that past her actually thought this was a good idea, or does she think that someone lied to her, did this to her? How does that then affect her view of the Hades who is trying to court her (or has successfully courted her)?

I shouldn't necessarily say that she eventually will find out, I suppose that there's probably some form of magic that could also erase that part of her story from everyone's memory and recorded history, but then you're not talking about just Lethe water then.

I'm also wondering how her psyche looks with the gaps in it. Would it try to fill them in somehow? And if so, with what? How does it explain her three children? Her absences from her mother? Like, the spaces will have a certain shape. And yeah, her subconscious could try to invent something happier to fill it, like maybe a vague fuzzy composite romantic partner who is to her liking, or slotting in someone who she might have dreamed of a relationship with (who of course wouldn't actually have been in that position and might be very surprised if Persephone behaved accordingly), (I'm picturing certain permutations of fanfic from the X-Men House of M arc with Wanda Maximoff because they also have this air of 'something is so much better in this one specific way than the thing that it replaced even if I can't quite tell, but it still feels off, and it's going to be terrible when this breaks', actually right now), but for the purposes of this plan, that leaves Hades out of luck since, you know, it's probably not him, and he's maybe trying to compete with this non-existent invented person, or trying to take hints as to how to become that person (see various amnesia/dementia tropes). Of course, she is a goddess, she doesn't necessarily need someone else's involvement to be a mother. Her mind could fill in the blanks with being a single parent who has a stalker who she needs to avoid. That's not great for Hades either.

I mean, I assume that Paul's got more in mind here, for all I know this could be a way to make a certain type of point without going through with it, but if not, this is a big ball of yarn.

 

[Coda]

My parent's relationship wasn't right.

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parents'

 

[dw7thdoctor]

How I think it should be done (though mind tempering usually freaks me out) is that they make avatars of themselves. Fill those avatars with the necessary memories and have them meet for the first as mortals like some sort of blind date situation if it works out, go on from there and they continue to date. If some sort of loving relationship forms between the avatars then reabsorb them back into the whole of their divine beings so they can feel what untainted love for each other is like and take the next step in their relationship whether is a continuance of the current marriage or a clean break.

 

[Darko]

How I think it should be done (though mind tempering usually freaks me out) is that they make avatars of themselves. Fill those avatars with the necessary memories and have them meet for the first as mortals like some sort of blind date situation if it works out, go on from there and they continue to date. If some sort of loving relationship forms between the avatars then reabsorb them back into the whole of their divine beings so they can feel what untainted love for each other is like and take the next step in their relationship whether is a continuance of the current marriage or a clean break.

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That honestly sounds like the most sane-ish idea I've heard concerning the use of the Lethe waters.

 

[Mr Zoat]

parents'

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Thank you, corrected.

 

[dw7thdoctor]

Rereading some of the old stuff again and found this Paul's views he had have changed from then to now.

"Yes. The most tempting choice of all would be to erase all memory since my reactivation and then reinstate the program. I would have to create a believable explanation for my resurrection and convince everyone who knows me to go along with it. But..." She stands there for ten seconds, completely still and saying nothing. She doesn't have to breathe unless she wants to speak, and at the moment she isn't. "Danette could be happy with the result."

"No. Absolutely not. Killing yourself is not the answer."

"It would not precisely be suicide."

"But if you have the program restored, you're effectively altering your mind to become a new person. You wouldn't be you anymore, it's close enough." I take a moment to think it through. "If the choice is a comforting delusion or an uncomfortable truth, I'd choose truth. That's part of why I'm an atheist. If you want.. help, making happier memories... I've got lots of spare time if there's something you want to do."

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[Ardy]

Rereading some of the old stuff again and found this Paul's views he had have changed from then to now.

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he cared about Red Inferno, he does not care about Persephone

 

[Darko]

Rereading some of the old stuff again and found this Paul's views he had have changed from then to now.

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he cared about Red Inferno, he does not care about Persephone

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Yeah, if Paul cares about you then he'll move Heaven and Earth to help you.

And given what he can do, he may literally do that.

If he doesn't care about you then he may just shrug and either do the bare minimum or come up with an insane idea that he thinks may work, even if it's wrong in a lot of ways.

 

[Flightless Man]

So, this is going better than I thought... but why does Zagreus curse him? *blinking confusion*

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I was really nervous at the direction. I'm glad it's going somewhere more creative than another basic divorce.

I'm thinking Hades will offer to remove his own memories as well.

 

[Mr Zoat]

So, this is going better than I thought... but why does Zagreus curse him? *blinking confusion*

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He didn't literally curse him. He was just showing that he was annoyed.

 

[boo600]

I didn't mean a magical curse! I got that part.

*sighs*

Sorry. I had a lot to comment on, and I picked something that seemed mild for my first post. My mistake.

 

[Birdsie]

I'm guessing the reason that Paul's immediate preference is to remove Persephone's memories of her issues with the relationship, rather than Hades' memories of falling in love is twofold:

1. Paul cares about Hades more. If there's anything particularly notable about Paul's character and powerset, it'd be that Paul is at his most effective when there's personal stakes involved (see: his ring's healing function became less efficient when healing random civilians many times in a row, because it's difficult to muster any fucks for people you don't know who are missing arms when there's hundreds of them around. There's no personal involvement; no, "I own this person/relationship" instinct, so Avarice doesn't work.)

2. He probably views it as more efficient/utilitarian to remove negative emotions (Persephone's feelings of the relationship,) than positive emotions (Hades' feelings of the relationship.)

 

[Cuchulin]

Paul isnt a utilitarian. He very clearly has shown deontology in his actions. Particularly in how "something of his" was treated. If he was a utilitarian he would have had to accept Nabu as a net good and been more accommodating. But he went straight to murder.

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Paul had no way no knowing that Nabu was a net good who spend all his spare time deal with mystical threats to the world/humanity. Also, Paragon didn't go "straight to murder". Nabu was offered all kinds of ways out such as a mindless golem body and efforts to find pretty much ANY host that wasn't Zatanna's father, but Nabu's attitude was that of arrogance and feeling that he didn't have to explain or justify himself to anyone because he was entitled to use Giovanni Zatara as his body and run the man into the ground.

 

[Prince Charon]

Paul isnt a utilitarian. He very clearly has shown deontology in his actions. Particularly in how "something of his" was treated.

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That does not mean that he's not a utilitarian, it means that he's not only a utilitarian (because sapient beings are complex). To put it another way, he's not an absolute utilitarian, he's a 'utilitarian with some exceptions' that he's probably aware of (certainly Zoat is aware of them, Paul may be less aware, unless Mr Zoat says otherwise).

 

[Mastigos2]

"Ah-. No. That… The Gods of Olympus don't have no-fault divorce.

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Perhaps Hephestean can change that

 

[Mr Zoat]

29th October 2012
22:23 GMT -5

"Recognised, Orange Lantern, B Zero Six."

"Hey, Oh El."

As the lights fade I see Richard working at the main computer. He doesn't look around.

"You know you.. can just use my name."

"It's not a good idea to get into the habit of calling superheroes by name when they're in uniform."

I consider that for a moment, then shrug and switch into normal clothes.

"Better?"

He glances around, and smirks. "I'm not exactly a fashion expert, but I don't know I'd call it better, Paul."

"Y'all just jealous of my Orange Lantern swagger." I stroll over. "What are you working on?"

"Uncle Sam."

"Can you..? Explain to me how significant a figure he is? To Americans?"

"Ah, he hasn't been around for a while, Paul. Most Americans just think he's an old and crazy Greatest-Generation-patriotic superhero."

"Do we know what he actually is?"

"Why? Did you get done messing with the Greek gods so you need to mess with the American ones?"

"Lady Liberty defected to Japan."

"Freedom of Religion, Paul. She can be worshipped by whoever she wants."

"Just because you have the constitutionally guaranteed freedom to do something, that doesn't mean that you should use it. Find anything?"

"Well, he does act a little different, but the analysis program is working from nineteen forties video footage. It's pretty much all staged, which means his actions aren't natural."

"Did Red Tornado or Red Inferno meet him? We might be able to download a video file."

"I already asked." He calls up a video file, and I get a grainy video of a party of some sort. A square forms around one corner of the room and expands, showing Uncle Sam casually patting Human Bomb on the shoulder as Invisible Hood backs away. "Same problem. They only met him a couple of times and didn't work together."

"Alan and Jay?"

"They knew him, but it's been a long time. And we've only got the word of 'The American Goddess of Liberty'-" He sounds like he's not taking the idea entirely seriously. "-that there's anything wrong in the first place. Batman didn't notice anything wrong when he spoke to him."

"Batman's American."

"So you think he's got some kind of American-specific mind control? Bit of a stretch."

"Until you remember that Captain Nazi could influence the minds of Germans. Did Diana meet him?"

"Ah, I don't think so." He brings up a Justice League itinerary. "No. Not officially."

"Rats. So I assume that it's inconclusive."

"Well, there are differences." He calls up a couple of examples, one of Uncle Sam walking down a corridor and another of him shaking someone's hand. "But there aren't enough from the forties for me to be sure that was how he always did it. And even if it was, that doesn't mean he hasn't just changed how he does it."

"Or if he is something like Captain Nazi, he could have died and been replaced by a doppelgänger. That's not necessarily a cause for concern."

"This might be."

He brings up Uncle Sam's itinerary.

"Not that I mind, but did we get that legitimately or-."

"No."

"I suppose this probably won't go to court one way or the other. Is-?" I see what he's talking about. "Ah."

Uncle Sam's been meeting with the with people on the House Committee on the Judiciary, which is odd but not really a cause for concern in itself. Usually a superhero would have to have a little more renown that he has to be called up for the sake of it, but his whole thing is being 'Super United States Man'. The potential problem is that he's also been talking to a lot of people responsible for running the Alliance.

The Justice League's charter was signed off on by the United Nations Security Council, which means that the U.S. Federal Government via the State Department approved it. But while that covers the League, actual U.S. policy towards superpowered vigilantes varies greatly from place to place. Occasionally, some brave soul suggests federal regulation, then someone points to Gotham or Hub City as a good example of why a government bypass isn't always a bad thing.

Or they wish them good luck arresting Superman, or they ask them how good their health plan is.

"That's worrying, but it's hardly a smoking gun."

"How much control did Captain Nazi have?"

"Pass. Some. It's hard to quantify that sort of thing. How much mind control protection do Members of Congress have?"

"Basically? None."

My smile vanishes. "That's a problem."

"A few have wards which should stop magic mind control-."

"Ah… No. If they're using the type I think they are, they won't. Not the style Captain Nazi used. They're designed to weaken or throw off ongoing spells. Captain Nazi's control was undirected; everyone in a place was in effect surrounded by the spell at all times. There isn't anywhere to throw it off to. Even my spell eaters would just keep heating up until they became useless. Telepath blockers?"

"I don't think we've got those."

"We've got g-gnomes. They could easily block any hostile telepath they'd be likely to encounter. I'd bet on a few dozen of them even against someone as strong as M'gann."

"Wouldn't that just mean that the g-gnomes were controlling Congress rather than anyone else?"

"I trust creatures without an instinct to dominate more than I would most humans. But we should probably raise the issue with the Speaker of the House at some point."

"Good luck. But right now they don't have any telepathic defences."

"Marvellous. Remind me why we haven't replaced them all with robots?"

"If we did, they might actually start working."