With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Vaermina · Aug 9, 2022

Coda said:
OL said "essentially." He isn't quoting the law as written in the proper legalese; he's giving the short version. What this law likely does is define a sentencing guideline -- instead of the choices being "life imprisonment" or "death" a sentencing judge can now choose "death, commuted to life imprisonment unless the criminal escapes from prison." This remains constitutional as long as the judge is allowed to use discretion in which of these three sentences to hand down.

That's not allowed.

The Federal Death Penalty is a unique beast that can only be handed out by a unanimous jury verdict. Once that verdict is received, the judge is not allowed to reject or modify it in the manner you described.

Coda said:
I'll credit you that this one is very borderline. It probably wouldn't fly at all in US Prime. But US Prime doesn't have people with disorders that make them chronically incapable of making moral judgments, who are also them a clear and present danger to the public for an indefinite amount of time, who also cannot be restrained through normal means. US 16 clearly does, and I would expect jurisprudence there to have evolved differently as a result.

Honestly, this one's more of a plot hole in the underlying DC setting. The fictional definition of "insane" is completely bonkers. The Joker is not insane -- he's intelligent enough that he should be able to understand the consequences of his actions. He's capable of long-term planning, so his actions aren't the result of an inability to control his impulses. He is aware of his own actions. Whatever mental illness he has, he isn't insane -- he isn't incapable of forming intent.

But if we were to grant that Batman's rogues gallery is full of people who really are so insane that they don't know that what they're doing is wrong, then what this law is establishing is a class of mental illness that is such a grave threat to public safety that lethal force is statutorily considered a defensive act. It isn't a criminal death penalty; it's a legal recognition of a clear and present danger.

While I understand what you're going for.

This is very much one of those "no exceptions allowed" bits of US constitutional law because allowing any exceptions is the equivalent of jumping off the cliff government abuse wise.

Prince Charon · Aug 9, 2022

Coda said:
(2) It's not immunity; it's indemnification. It doesn't mean the officers can't be brought to trial. It means that the federal government takes responsibility for compensating the damages. Importantly, this means that if the officer did do something wrong, they can still be tried for it instead of having the entire trial thrown out up front.

These parts are pretty important. It reduces how big a mess the law can be used to create, or at least limits the type of messes it can be used to create, and it makes more sense as a law that could potentially pass.

Mr Zoat · Aug 9, 2022

21st November 2012
08:12 GMT +3

I regard the frustrated Amynta sympathetically. "I'm sorry that he's been so much of a pain."

"I cannot say that you did not warn us. And I know that his need is great. But I cannot command a man who is not guilty of any criminal wrongdoing-"

"I wouldn't-."

"-into the fields."

"-go that far. And he probably doesn't know anything about farming anyway."

Amynta frowns, blinking, then appears to mentally kick herself.

"Of course he.. doesn't. It was foolish to assume-."

"Three thousand year old assumptions?"

"Yes. I apologise."

"You don't need to apologise, just.. bear in mind that across the world most men aren't involved in farming. Though while we're on the subject, what are your thoughts on the whole Medina situation?"

Amynta hisses in irritation and shakes her head. "She is a fool. Having children sired by foreign men caused problems even in the Old City."

I look her over. "So is it Kon, Mitchell, me or Daniel who should-?"

"No." She hesitates, perhaps worrying about her own abruptness. "I mean, we are not all rushing to have children. Most marriages are just having-. Planning to have, one become pregnant. There is nothing about being women which means that we all instinctively know how to raise children. And the island is not large."

"Do you want a new island?"

"I would not insult the gods by-."

"No, I mean, it's well within my power to create a new island here. Or to increase the size of Themyscira itself, you know, to handle the extra people. I'd clear it with the Five before I did anything that would increase their workload."

"Can you believe that I forgot you could perform such feats?"

"After the farming thing? Certainly."

Um.

"If you're.. forgetting things a lot, there have been a lot of medical advances in the outside world. And I could attach a quantum wafer in your brain and then you'd never have to worry about forgetting things again."

"No, it's just that it is so new. I am certain I will adapt."

I nod. "Alright. So how would you resolve the dispute?"

"Move her to the Embassy until the child is of age. Fifteen years is no time at all to us, and the father would be able to visit."

"And the rest of her family?"

"They can visit easily enough. Or move there as well; it isn't a small place."

"And what about future incidents?"

"Are homes in New Yark expensive?"

"New York, and, yes. There are cheap places to live and I could just put a Gate there, but that's not going to be near anyone who's sired a child already-." I frown. "Are there other children sired in that way, and this is the first time there's been a complaint?"

She can't quite meet my eyes.

"I am not myself aware of any other-."

"Amynta."

"The idea has been mooted before. I haven't heard of anyone else actually doing it. Most of those who have visited Man's World for sex have focused their interests on women."

Oh dear.

"Has Themyscira sorted out the visa rules?"

"Visa?"

"Rules for who can come here. I know that men need an invitation or they get forcibly expelled, but have you thought about what happens if a significant number of women want to come here?"

"Do you think that's likely?

"For now it's just hook-up visits, but Amazon women are going to start getting attached to New Yorkers eventually. What happens if they want to bring American women for a visit?"

"Why would that be a problem?"

"There are about three million women in New York City alone. How many could come here? How many-?"

"Oh. Yes. I see. But why are you asking me?"

"Because I can't argue for something in the forum when I don't really care and it doesn't affect me. Now that they've decided that there's going to be a relationship, the women of Themyscira need to decide what mechanism they want to use to regulate it." I exhale. "Kon's trying to sound out the city, but so far no one really has an opinion beyond 'Medina's kind of dumb'."

Ahead of us on the beach I see John prop himself up slightly on his sun lounger.

"Think about it. Talk to the other guards. Come to me or Kon with any questions." I glance at John. "And you could talk to John-."

"No."

"Good decision. John!"

I march towards him, while Amynta wisely decides to hang back.

"How's life treating you?"

He stares into the middle distance for a moment.

"Bored out of my fucking skull, mate."

"How do you feel about farm work?"

"I-. You know something? I'd pick up a hoe right now."

"But that aside?"

"I don't know what Quinn did, but the withdrawal isn't hitting me. It's just the mental aspect. Normally I'd just find another terminal case and dump my need on them, but… Doesn't really seem right, here."

"Good, because it's not. And now that you're nicely becalmed, would you like to meet the island's other guest? I suspect that she'll be able to hold your attention."

"Well, with an invitation like that..." He climbs ungraciously off the lounger and stands next to me. "Let's go meet the neighbour."

Darko · Aug 9, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
Or move their as well

"move there"

Mr Zoat said:
bring America women

"American"

Mr Zoat said:
." I glance at John. "And you could talk to John-."

"No."

"Good decision

Very good decision.

Lothlo · Aug 9, 2022

"I'd pick a hoe right now" About that John, right now they have a bit of a problem with pregnacies in Themyscira. I would wait till you go outside the island

Ngamer11 · Aug 9, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
"I cannot say that you did not warn us. And I know that his need it great. But I cannot command a man who is not guilty of any criminal wrongdoing-"

That should say 'is'.

Mr Zoat said:
"Good, because it's not. And now that you're nicely becalmed, would you like to meet the island's other guest? I suspect that she'll be able to hold your attention."

"Well, with an invitation like that..." He climbs ungraciously off the lounger and stands next to me. "Let's go meet the neighbour."

I have no idea who this is. Does anyone know who the other guest could be?

Xmaster3000 · Aug 9, 2022

Ngamer11 said:
That should say 'is'.

I have no idea who this is. Does anyone know who the other guest could be?

Circe, she's the only one I can think of.

Darko · Aug 9, 2022

Xmaster3000 said:
Circe, she's the only one I can think of.

I don't think it's her.

Chojin Patriarch · Aug 9, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
21st November 2012
08:12 GMT +3

I regard the frustrated Amynta sympathetically. "I'm sorry that he's been so much of a pain."

"I cannot say that you did not warn us. And I know that his need it great. But I cannot command a man who is not guilty of any criminal wrongdoing-"

Ah, John feeling a bit out of sorts? I suppose there's only so much lounging around you can do in the day before boredom kicks in. And I can see him treating this as a relaxing holiday, what with the warding preventing him getting a brainful of Order and Chaos arguing.

"I wouldn't-."

"-into the fields."

...You want John Constantine farming? Are you nuts? Knowing his luck, he'd probably raise a crop of mandrakes.

"-go that far. And he probably doesn't know anything about farming anyway."

Amynta frowns, blinking, then appears to mentally kick herself.

Ah, a bit behind the times, is she?

"Of course he.. doesn't. It was foolish to assume-."

"Three thousand year old assumptions?"

Heh. To be fair, when they came to the island, most men were either common farmers, soldiers or nobility.

"Yes. I apologise."

"You don't need to apologise, just.. bear in mind that across the world most men aren't involved in farming. Though while we're on the subject, what are your thoughts on the whole Medina situation?"

And those that are usually don't do the old 'plant and pick by hand' thing you might be used to. Things are rather more industrial, especially in the first and second-world nations.

Amynta hisses in irritation and shakes her head. "She is a fool. Having children sired by foreign men caused problems even in the Old City."

I look her over. "So is it Kon, Mitchell, me or Daniel who should-?"

And of them, two are technically under five years of age. And Daniel Hall is ~~happily married~~.
Edit: Scratch that, I was thinking of his father, Hector. Too many semi-

obscure characters to keep straight...

"No." She hesitates, perhaps worrying about her own abruptness. "I mean, we are not all rushing to have children. Most marriages are just having-. Planning to have, one become pregnant. There is nothing about being women which means that we all instinctively know how to raise children. And the island is not large."

"Do you want a new island?"

True, having the entire population pregnant at once would be terrible for defence. Never mind those who are asexual or aromantic, and therefore not interested in anyone.

"I would not insult the gods by-."

"No, I mean, it's well within my power to create a new island here. Or to increase the size of Themyscira itself, you know, to handle the extra people. I'd clear it with the Five before I did anything that would increase their workload."

Maybe consult with Gaea too, before you go giving her a facelift?

"Can you believe that I forgot you could perform such feats?"

"After the farming thing? Certainly."

...Well, he is giving as good as he's getting from her.

Um.

"If you're.. forgetting things a lot, there have been a lot of medical advances in the outside world. And I could attach a quantum wafer in your brain and then you'd never have to worry about forgetting things again."

...Oh, god, that'd be hilarious. A senile Amazon. To be fair, some of them are older physically, for whatever reason.

"No, it's just that it is so new. I am certain I will adapt."

I nod. "Alright. So how would you resolve the dispute?"

Just out of curiosity, hmm? I'm sure the regional folk will have different opinions to the City, where Kon is probably focusing.

"Move her to the Embassy until the child is of age. Fifteen years is no time at all to us, and the father would be able to visit."

"And the rest of her family?"

So, a short exile. Though with the ability to visit, presumably.

"They can visit easily enough. Or move their as well; it isn't a small place."

"And what about future incidents?"

...Because of course people are going to think 'Oh, of course that won't happen to me.' Humans gonna human, no matter how experienced.

"Are homes in New Yark expensive?"

"New York, and, yes. There are cheap places to live and I could just put a Gate there, but that's not going to be near anyone who's sired a child already-." I frown. "Are there other children sired in that way, and this is the first time there's been a complaint?"

...Well, shit. Leave it to OL to spot the glaring gap in the situation.

She can't quite meet my eyes.

"I am not myself aware of any other-."

Save the sophistry and verbal evasions for the courts, lady.

"Amynta."

"The idea has been mooted before. I haven't heard of anyone else actually doing it. Most of those who have visited Man's World for sex have focused their interests on women."

Because go with what you know, and look for new grounds. I bet modern sex toys will blow their mind... "How is it moving by itself?"

Oh dear.

"Has Themyscira sorted out the visa rules?"

...Beyond 'These people are over there, the rest are over here.'? Being hopeful enough to Give Alan a point of charge there, OL.

"Visa?"

"Rules for who can come here. I know that men need an invitation or they get forcibly expelled, but have you thought about what happens if a significant number of women want to come here?"

And there's bound to be someone too in love or sick of modern society to care that Themyscira is still something of an antiquarian town in terms of technology? Oh, sure, they probably have a sewerage system, but everything else...

"Do you think that's likely?

"For now it's just hook-up visits, but Amazon women are going to start getting attached to New Yorkers eventually. What happens if they want to bring America women for a visit?"

As long as they aren't acting like typical tourists, expecting all their modern conveniences like malls, hot water heaters, electric lights and cell coverage?

"Why would that be a problem?"

"There are about three million women in New York City alone. How many could come here? How many-?"

Keeping in mind that's about a hundred times the native population. Yeah, I don't see the island coping with that kind of cultural shift.

"Oh. Yes. I see. But why are you asking me?"

"Because I can't argue for something in the forum when I don't really care and it doesn't affect me. Now that they've decided that there's going to be a relationship, the women of Themyscira need to decide what mechanism they want to use to regulate it." I exhale. "Kon's trying to sound out the city, but so far no one really has an opinion beyond 'Medina's kind of dumb'."

To be fair, she is, if she expected to get away scot free. Seriously, I've seen almost as bad a comprehension of consequences in some versions Sophia Hess...

Ahead of us on the beach I see John prop himself up slightly on his sun lounger.

"Think about it. Talk to the other guards. Come to me or Kon with any questions." I glance at John. "And you could talk to John-."

Are you sure that's a good idea?

"No."

"Good decision. John!"

Well, at least she's got good sense.

I march towards him, while Amynta wisely decides to hang back.

"How's life treating you?"

Besides the amazing scenery, life of leisure and amazing scenery.

He stares into the middle distance for a moment.

"Bored out of my fucking skull, mate."

Of course he is. Man just doesn't know what to do with himself if things are going his way...

"How do you feel about farm work?"

"I-. You know something? I'd pick up a hoe right now."

,,,You know that castration is still an option, John?

Especially if the guards hear you talk about them like that...

"But that aside?"

"I don't know what Quinn did, but the withdrawal isn't hitting me. It's just the mental aspect. Normally I'd just find another terminal case and dump my need on them, but… Doesn't really seem right, here."

No, no it isn't, mate. Let's try to curb your normal courses of action?

"Good, because it's not. And now that you're nicely becalmed, would you like to meet the island's other guest? I suspect that she'll be able to hold your attention."

"Well, with an invitation like that..." He climbs ungraciously off the lounger and stands next to me. "Let's go meet the neighbour."

Huh, not ringing any bells. I'd ask if it were Sparta, daughter of Astarte, but I can't remember if OL has met the Citizenry or not...

Or that one of the four captains... Alcyone?

John really seems at odds and ends when he's not fighting this big evil or that, does he? I half-suspect the man doesn't actually know how to relax properly. Just booze, smoking and sex. On the upside, he might get to meet someone with even less idea of relaxation than him. I wonder if any sparks might fly in this meeting?

Ngamer11 · Aug 9, 2022

Chojin Patriarch said:
Huh, not ringing any bells. I'd ask if it were Sparta, daughter of Astarte, but I can't remember if OL has met the Citizenry or not... Or that one of the four captains... Alcyone?

Can't be the former as Paul didn't interact with the Citizenry due to deeming them a low priority. And the latter has been seen out and about with the other Amazons, so it can't be her.

Sockmonkey · Aug 9, 2022

Chojin Patriarch said:
Oh, sure, they probably have a sewerage system, but everything else...

Nope. It was mentioned way back that they don't.

Old Knife · Aug 9, 2022

Lothlo said:
"I'd pick a hoe right now" About that John, right now they have a bit of a problem with pregnacies in Themyscira. I would wait till you go outside the island

They're in Themyscira. "Hoe" is not within their vernacular as an alternative to "Whore" or "Prostitute".

Mr Zoat · Aug 9, 2022

Darko said:
"move there"
"American"

Thank you, corrected.

Lothlo said:
"I'd pick a hoe right now" About that John, right now they have a bit of a problem with pregnacies in Themyscira. I would wait till you go outside the island

To be clear, he said 'hoe', not 'ho'.

Ngamer11 said:
That should say 'is'.

Thank you, corrected.

Chojin Patriarch said:
And Daniel Hall is happily married.

No, Hector Hall is happily married. Daniel Hall is single.

theaceoffire · Aug 9, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
"Bored out of my fucking skull, mate."

"How do you feel about farm work?"

"I-. You know something? I'd pick up a hoe right now."

Well that's just lovely, but how do you feel about farm work?

Darko · Aug 9, 2022

Chojin Patriarch said:
You want John Constantine farming? Are you nuts? Knowing his luck, he'd probably raise a crop of mandrakes.

I can see him getting bored and summoning a demon to help.

This will of course lead to demonic vegetables.

Chojin Patriarch said:
True, having the entire population pregnant at once would be terrible for defence. Never mind those who are asexual or aromantic, and therefore not interested in anyone

Or just not interested in kids.

Chojin Patriarch said:
Oh, god, that'd be hilarious. A senile Amazon. To be fair, some of them are older physically, for whatever reason.

Some of the Amazons weren't in the prime of their life when they came to the island.

Chojin Patriarch said:
Keeping in mind that's about a hundred times the native population. Yeah, I don't see the island coping with that kind of cultural shift.

Unless the gods somehow make the island bigger like the TARDIS.

Darko · Aug 9, 2022

Chojin Patriarch said:
Huh, not ringing any bells. I'd ask if it were Sparta, daughter of Astarte, but I can't remember if OL has met the Citizenry or not... Or that one of the four captains... Alcyone?

Ngamer11 said:
Can't be the former as Paul didn't interact with the Citizenry due to deeming them a low priority. And the latter has been seen out and about with the other Amazons, so it can't be her.

You know, I remember that when Paul defeated the Queen of Fables, they considered sending her to Tartarus.

Maybe she's the other guest getting rehab.

Mr Zoat · Aug 9, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
"Unless you'd used any of the half-dozen times you'd been onboard the Nemesis to plant one of those fourteen thousand fusion bombs on board and blown it up.

Thank you, corrected.

Silveraith · Aug 9, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
I look her over. "So is it Kon, Mitchell, me or Daniel who should-?"

Who?

Ngamer11 · Aug 9, 2022

Silveraith said:
Who?

Daniel Hall, son of the Silver Scarab.

BartlettMagic · Aug 9, 2022

PLEASE take him to Eris

HeroineRule34Guy · Aug 9, 2022

It's Alkyone and her cohort, right? First referenced here. I know the Illustres met them and played the Babylon 5 CCG with them. I don't recall if anything's been done with them since.

Ngamer11 · Aug 9, 2022

HeroineRule34Guy said:
It's Alkyone and her cohort, right? First referenced here. I know the Illustres met them and played the Babylon 5 CCG with them. I don't recall if anything's been done with them since.

Nope. Paul has long since revealed the truth to Alkyone and her cohort. This caused them to repent and beg their queen for forgiveness. Alkyone has since been seen free to move around the island. Mr Zoat, are the Circle officially forgiven, or is there some kind of probation for them?

Mr Zoat · Aug 9, 2022

Ngamer11 said:
Mr Zoat, are the Circle officially forgiven, or is there some kind of probation for them?

More or less forgiven.

PDV · Aug 9, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
Anyway, Horne's in and has the reigns of power for four more years

Reins.

Incidentally, the Senate switching to direct elections was much more about populism and anti-corruption than centralization. It's interesting how much Grayven isn't really paying attention to the government even as he lectures about it.

Coda · Aug 9, 2022

Vaermina said:
The Federal Death Penalty is a unique beast that can only be handed out by a unanimous jury verdict. Once that verdict is received, the judge is not allowed to reject or modify it in the manner you described.

You're right -- that's 18 U.S. Code § 3594. Which is to say, a legislative decision, not a constitutional one. That same law also says that life imprisonment is subject to the same rule.

So what this means is that I was partially wrong. This law would be amending that one to create a new sentence that the JURY can select from, instead of the judge as I had mistakenly suggested.

Vaermina said:
While I understand what you're going for.

This is very much one of those "no exceptions allowed" bits of US constitutional law because allowing any exceptions is the equivalent of jumping off the cliff government abuse wise.

As I said, I agree with you here in US Prime. But the circumstances in US 16 are different enough that this seems like it might fall a different way there.

And really the "hunt down" provision is the bigger issue -- the ability for a jury to declare that a person constitutes a clear and present danger by their presence alone doesn't seem to violate any current jurisprudence that I'm aware of, although it does introduce some variability in how it gets handled from place to place based on how the self-defense laws are written. But that is, of course, where the indemnification clause comes in; it wouldn't be about the death penalty at that point, it would be about self-defense.

Darko · Aug 9, 2022

PDV said:
Reins.

Incidentally, the Senate switching to direct elections was much more about populism and anti-corruption than centralization. It's interesting how much Grayven isn't really paying attention to the government even as he lectures about it.

It's a fairly common feature among the various Paul's and with Zoat; seemingly being an expert or knowledgeable some field but lacking understanding or basic concepts connected to said field.

Mr Zoat · Aug 9, 2022

PDV said:
Reins.

Thank you, corrected.

Incidentally, the Senate switching to direct elections was much more about populism and anti-corruption than centralization. It's interesting how much Grayven isn't really paying attention to the government even as he lectures about it.

Populism, sure. Anti-corruption? Certainly people at the time might have seen it as a way of reducing corruption. People vote for things and get the opposite all the time. Historically, greater centralisation of power is at best weakly associated reduced corruption.

Vaermina · Aug 9, 2022

Coda said:
You're right -- that's 18 U.S. Code § 3594. Which is to say, a legislative decision, not a constitutional one. That same law also says that life imprisonment is subject to the same rule.

So what this means is that I was partially wrong. This law would be amending that one to create a new sentence that the JURY can select from, instead of the judge as I had mistakenly suggested.

Which would put it up against the 8th Amendment.

Because the "method of execution" roadblock is a pretty hefty one.

Stsword · Aug 9, 2022

Darko said:
It's a fairly common feature among the various Paul's and with Zoat; seemingly being an expert or knowledgeable some field but lacking understanding or basic concepts connected to said field.

Well in this regard I think he just missed the love of hypocrisy in US jurisprudence.

Cops playing judge, jury, and executioner happens.

While also being unconstitutional and hence illegal.

But it's justified with such polite fictions as "self defense."

So the hypothetical "Save our Cops Act" which pre-qualifies escaped supervillains as armed and dangerous de facto allowing cops to shoot villains willy nilly while pretending it's not using the 5th amendment as toilet paper, and framing the narrative so that going against it is being pro cop killer?

That I can buy.

As presented, I have to agree with V- The UCLA would probably have Gravy's law for breakfast since it doesn't even pretend like it cares about obeying the constitution.

Coda · Aug 10, 2022

Vaermina said:
Which would put it up against the 8th Amendment.

Because the "method of execution" roadblock is a pretty hefty one.

It isn't cruel on its own, although the circumstances of individual cases might be cruel, which would go right back to indemnification only applying to the actual homicide and not other actions that might surround it.

It also isn't unusual, as it is already well-established that lethal force is permitted when there is a clear and present danger, as well as being well-established that lethal force is explicitly authorized against prison escapees if they ignore clear warnings.

With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

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peekaboo, you fucks you!

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