With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Chojin Patriarch · Sep 8, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
29th November 2012
08:01 GMT

"Some were quite good, but others will not pass the censors."

The Bat shrugs, then takes a sip of tea. I've shown him around my Bir Tawil home, he's made interested noises, and now it's time to talk.

Ah, Herr Fleidermaus. Visiting, I see. Clearly on business, since they're discussing... I assume films. No doubt the native Earth 10 Cinema is very, very bland. I'm picturing it as like American cinema in the fifties: Lots of simple dramas with largely inoffensive characters...

The League... Are more or less in favour of my efforts to make National Socialist Earth less National Socialist. But that doesn't extend to letting me use League resources to keep in touch. Which… Yes, the UN would probably blow their collective tops if they found out that the League were using their funds for something like that. For… Pretty understandable reasons, really.

But it needs to happen, so I've moved Dr. Sivana's relay to Bir Tawil, a little way away from my home. My first attempt at cultural infiltration came in the form of cinema, because even things with no overt anti-National Socialist theme will include cultural assumptions that they don't share. I've been hoping that -with there not having really been external influences on their Earth for sixty years- their censors would be out of practice.

I have no doubt there's cliques of 'underground' cinema creators trying to break out of the norm by being transgressive. The legality of that is probably up in the air.

Let's see what the damage was.

"Oh? What was the problem?"

I'm sure some can be... Edited to tone down whatever they object to. With a Power Ring, it'd be easy...

"Oh, it is best not to dwell on the negative. Rather, we should focus on the successes, the things that our societies have in common."

Oh, he obviously knows exactly how I feel about that.

Yeah, not the best of compliments, hearing about the things a literal Nazi enjoyed.

"Bat,-."

"You want to have a brief honest talk about our actual objectives before we retreat into our familiar epistemologies." He nods. "And to find out whether or not I actually know what Overman and Overgirl are doing. Because you lack the confidence in your own intelligence to tease that information out over a period of time."

...Because of course the Goddamn Nazi Batman has as good an intelligence network as the Goddamn Batgod.

"I'll have to do that anyway. It's not like I can trust anything you say."

"That's a little harsh. Particularly-" He points his right forefinger at my face. "-given that you can see inside my soul."

If you're anything like Batman, you might be able to fake your own desire networks.

"There are ways to block that."

"It's going to be a while before magic becomes acceptable in the Reich. Almost as long as it will take for us to persuade you to give us access to your knowledge of the subject."

...Mammon while be skating to work before that happens.

"Your Atlantis not sharing?"

"Our Atlanteans were bio-engineered. We did check." He looks away, an odd expression on his lips. "Some in the Ministry of Culture were hopeful that an… Acceptably 'Aryan' magic might be discovered."

You mean 'used by ancient white people we like', don't you?

"Aryan in style, or as a discrete thing? Because there probably were forms of magic used by whatever people you're referring to as 'Aryan' that weren't used by, say, Africans."

"I wasn't involved in that discussion. But, reading the minutes to try and understand it was like trying to explain the doctrine of the Trinity to a pagan."

Went over your head, eh? No shame in not being proficient in everything.

"Overgirl told you the Arianism joke, did she?"

"She mentioned the philosophy. My point is that I have no way to prevent you seeing into my soul."

Well, let's take that as read and move on, shall we?

"Still, I'd like to know."

"Anyone who knows him knows that Overman is not happy with things. And anyone who watches his public interviews-. The live ones, I mean. If he wants to reform things… Well." He shrugs. "He may try, and he may succeed or fail. That is the nature of Darwinism."

Yeah, kind of hard to manage what he says in off-the-cuff comments, hmm?

"And how do you feel about it?"

"Ah, I doubt that I will live long enough to see any major changes. It will be the work of a generation at least. If he wants to standardise the rules for the black reservations, it makes no difference to me. If he wants to change the censorship laws, it makes no difference to me. If he wants to change history lessons in schools, it makes no difference to me. I won't like it, because I'm old and set in my ways, but I recognise that. I doubt that he will change Greater Germany enough to make much difference."

Well, that's a very accommodating way to look at it. And, to be fair, it's probably a view shared by others...

"No?"

"No. He and I are from the same generation. We share an underlying sense of what is normal. I don't believe that he'll do anything too extreme, which is why I am not going to try to acquire kryptonite while I am here."

Not that local Kryptonite would work as well as you think it might. Different wavelengths and all that. For all you know, the local green Kryptonite works like blue sunlight on Overman.

"I'm not sure whether to be relieved or disappointed."

"Now you know how I feel, even without staring into my soul. So, the films."

At least he won't go getting in Overman's way? The question is how many of his comrades might...

"Yes. What was the problem?"

"We liked Sky High. The idea of a central training centre for empowered superhumans has been raised on numerous occasions, but the various institutions of state have never been able to agree on how to make it work. There were clear ideas of hereditary power and responsibility yoked to the good of the state as a whole, and the overt pro-eugenics message played very well. Particularly at the end, with how the superhumans with limited abilities were still able to provide useful 'hero support' while the innately superior hero saved the day."

It was an entertaining movie. Wonder if the characters were similar to their portrayal in our universe or not. I mean, the lead's father is pretty much a Superman-alike, minus the flight...

I… I think that was the exact opposite of-. Different culture. Of course he's going to see things differently.

"The black child wasn't a problem?"

Probably tolerable as an 'accepting his place in society' analogy...

"He was inoffensive. I suppose there is the question of how we treat negro sup-er…" He trails off, looking both amused and confused. "It is a little difficult to know how to refer to them. 'Supernegro'? The Incredibles will not pass the censors due to its freezing negro being too prominent, but the one in Sky High is fine."

"And.. the theme of not underestimating people who were dismissed by the authorities as useless?"

Well... Frozone is pretty much Mr Incredible's best friend (and best man at his wedding!)

I suppose that level of friendliness between white and not-white is too much for them...

"No, no. If someone surpasses what the authorities believe are their limitations…" He frowns. "What was the line in Gattaca? 'That merely means that we did not measure their potential properly'. The guinea pig girl, for example. How often would being able to turn into a guinea pig realistically be useful? But nonetheless, she kept her wits about her and used it in the one time in her life that it was. A person does not need superpowers to be a good citizen. I do not have superpowers." He leans forward slightly, smiling. "But I am not going to try and arm wrestle Overman. There are things I cannot do, and will never be able to do."

...Not the worst takeaway from the movie, I guess?

…

"So that's approved?"

"No, it will have to go through the censors, but I cannot imagine what other complaints they could have."

Expect them to order certain scenes cut or shortened, I bet. With illegal 'uncut' copies becoming a black market item.

I sigh inwardly.

"And the others?"

"Wall-E was an instructive demonstration of the dangers of lassitude and complacency, as well as decadence and dependence on others."

...Okay, care to explain that one?

...Outside of 'Incredibles', I haven't seen any Pixar stuff...

"Again, no problem with the black characters?"

"National Socialists don't just oppress negros. The negros are just the only ones who survived. There isn't a problem with including negros with other types of degenerate."

...Just as long as they aren't depicted as being equals to ~~whites~~ Aryans, huh?

"And you don't think there might be a problem with the evil AI who was lying to everyone about the state of Earth?"

"Why would there be?" He grins. "Hah, my little joke. No, that is not a problem because as an AI it is inherently alien. The portrayal of the captain might have been a problem, but amongst a group of degenerates he took the most effort into becoming more than he was. He sought purpose, and in the end found it in working to restore his peoples' ancestral homeland."

...He's not wrong? Which fills me with disgust, for some reason...

"Toy Story?"

"A bit disturbing, but essentially harmless."

After all, there's no characters who can't be read as white, is there?

"A Bug's Life?"

"A parasitical culture being defeated by a collective effort led by a valiant hero."

...Wow, did OL just toss the Disney/Pixar back catalogue at them or something?

"The Phantom Menace?"

"No. Not because the censors would block it, it just isn't very good." He looks mildly pained. "And the racial allegory was rather unsubtle, don't you think?"

What do you have against Micheal Bay, huh?

Too American? What about the original Trilogy, then? Or is the anti-imperial theme too unsubtle?

Well, that whole discussion was...

Uncomfortable. Like talking with that one family member at a reunion that has the.. concerning opinions that everyone else avoids them for, and you're only talking to them to to be polite... Thankfully, this won't be a recurring thing, I hope. Still, good to see not all of his colleagues would stand in Overman's way to achieve reforms...

john doe 777 · Sep 8, 2022

PepeTheFrog said:
Could it be that he thinks Chancellor Palpatine (a guy with what could be argued has a hooked nose) secretly manipulating an empire from the inside is a not to subtle racial allegory for Jewish people? I've got nothing else.

yeah im confused as well

Mquz · Sep 8, 2022

Grimnar said:
What a fucking Shit take.

I second this. I have no idea what allegory zoat was trying to imply the Bat saw there.

EDIT: Wait, was that the take? Slutty ruling Jews or something?

Possibly. But also potentially the droids/ other slave races as black people

Zig · Sep 8, 2022

Handlewithcare said:
When the literal Nazi goes "Jar Iar Binks was a bit too much" you, uh, might want to revisit some things.

Khornelius said:
Really? He's a secondary character with a limited role in movie. I mean when he's on screen he's certainly doing his best but against the Robot his powers are basically ineffective at worst and a stalking tactic at best. He's even better in the sequel.

What!?! I'm sorry I don't follow this at all. Is this a thing or is The Bat just seeing something that's not intended to be there?
His opinion of Star Wars mildly hurts.

thebishop8 said:
Jar Jar actually isn't in the Earth 16 version of The Phantom Menace:

Ciber said:
Continuity error detected! Exterminate! Exterminate! Exterminate!

Or he could be talking about Watto

Doccer · Sep 8, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
Overgirl told you the Arianism joke, did she?"

No idea what the joke is. Yes I clicked the link.

DrThoth · Sep 8, 2022

I've definitely heard that take on Sky High before, so it's amusing to see it here.

Doccer said:
No idea what the joke is. Yes I clicked the link.

Arian presumably sounds the name as Ah'rian (I think this is Zoat's original Atlantean-sounding name of Arion the comics figure), the Atlantean legendary mage who founded Atlantean magical (and political?) orthodoxy who's discussed in both Paragon and Renegade timelines and showed up in Renegade.

Cuchulin · Sep 8, 2022

A lot of the older Westerns, especially ones staring John Wayne would likely be popular considering novels about the Wild West were fairly popular in Germany with Hitler himself being a great admirer of German author Karl May.

ForeverShogo · Sep 8, 2022

So, for reference, this isn't Nazi Batman. This is a different guy that the Nazi Batman hates because he won't retire, so he has to keep calling himself Leatherwing instead of Batman.

And I will say I basically agree with him in that I don't think the efforts of Overman and Overgirl will actually change all that much. I think people are kind of underestimating just how heavy into the indoctrination and propaganda the Nazis got. They started real goddamn young with their Youth Programs, which were actually mandatory.

Like, it'd be kind of the equivalent of . . . Let's say the KKK took over the United States, somehow managed to obtain and maintain popular support in doing so, and for the last 80 years every single child in America (well, the white ones anyways) had to be a member of, I don't know, we'll call it the Kiddie Klan . . . From elementary school to adulthood. The entire time they're being indoctrinated into how to be a proper Klansman. (Or a proper wife to a Klansman if you're a girl.)

And that's basically just the start of what you're dealing with when trying to reform Nazi Earth. Especially when they used super advanced Kryptonian technologies to cheat their way to utopic living conditions, so a lot of the usual social pressures that push people to seek reform don't really apply.

Anyways . . . The thing I found most surprising is that, censored or not, they're entertaining the idea of just flat out importing Earth 16 movies and the like. I honestly expected them to just make their own versions of the movies they found acceptable.

Vaermina · Sep 8, 2022

Grimnar said:
What a fucking Shit take.

Yea... Like... Still not sure how that's a con...

Yomanyo · Sep 8, 2022

Can OL and the Bat have their own Half in the bag like movie review channel on YouTube.

Mr Zoat · Sep 8, 2022

Chojin Patriarch said:
...Just as long as they aren't depicted as being equals to whites, huh?

That doesn't mean anything. Most Jews have pale skin. The issue wouild be with them being portrayed as the equals of non-degenerate aryans.

...Wow, did OL just toss the Disney/Pixar back catalogue at them or something?

The SI isn't a film expert. He wanted non-overt anti-naziism films. What would you have gone with?

What do you have against Micheal Bay, huh? Too American? What about the original Trilogy, then? Or is the anti-imperial theme too unsubtle?

You mean, where the ancient wizened jew and his black henchman oppress the righteous aryan people of the universe? No, that was fine.

Cuchulin said:
A lot of the older Westerns, especially ones staring John Wayne would likely be popular considering novels about the Wild West were fairly popular in Germany with Hitler himself being a great admirer of German author Karl May.

Stalin was a big fan of Last of the Mohicans.

Duke Long · Sep 8, 2022

This really isn't what I expected from 'Uncomplicated Good Works'. Less complex than what Paragon is often involved in, but this is still a lot more complex than stuff like arresting criminals or providing aid to ravaged areas like he was doing on 666. I mean, I like it, I'm just surprised.

CTrees · Sep 8, 2022

Zig said:
Or he could be talking about Watto

I was assuming Watto and the Neimoidians.

They also may have been reading Darth Maul as black - Ray Park is white, sure, but I'm guessing the Nazi Earth is a little more accepting of white actors using blackface to play untermensch roles.

Windona · Sep 8, 2022

Ah, the lens of cultural media. Though I guess they're OK with women taking up weapons in defense of their homes as long as they get a romantic interest at the end and are implied to have gone back to the kitchen, huh?

Technically the fight against Earth 666 was the pressure, but it wasn't that great of one.

Mr Zoat · Sep 8, 2022

Windona said:
Ah, the lens of cultural media. Though I guess they're OK with women taking up weapons in defense of their homes as long as they get a romantic interest at the end and are implied to have gone back to the kitchen, huh?

No, they think that superhumans are above that sort of thing. Officially.

Darko · Sep 8, 2022

Lothlo said:
Thank the Source we don't have the original idea that George Lucas had, where Jar Jar was secretly a Lord of the Sith (Possibly Sidious master), but was scrapped due to the reaction people had of the character. Imagine getting to the second/third movie where they find out that the 'gungan' who until that point was the butt end of jokes, was really the mastermind behind everything and awaiting to take revenge on the good guys and government.

Earth socialist censor : what?

This was an actual thing?
I thought it was just a joke.

Handlewithcare said:
When the literal Nazi goes "Jar Iar Binks was a bit too much" you, uh, might want to revisit some things.

Though I'm guessing that people would support Jar Jar since a Nazi hates him.

Khornelius said:
Really? He's a secondary character with a limited role in movie. I mean when he's on screen he's certainly doing his best but against the Robot his powers are basically ineffective at worst and a stalking tactic at best. He's even better in the sequel.

He was probably still in it too much for their tastes and was portrayed as being too good.

PepeTheFrog said:
Could it be that he thinks Chancellor Palpatine (a guy with what could be argued has a hooked nose) secretly manipulating an empire from the inside is a not to subtle racial allegory for Jewish people? I've got nothing else.

Probably.

And I'm guessing he didn't see the fact that the evil empire was supposed to be space Nazis.

Darko · Sep 8, 2022

Chojin Patriarch said:
I'm picturing it as like American cinema in the fifties: Lots of simple dramas with largely inoffensive characters...

Inoffensive for the Nazis, offensive for everyone else.

Chojin Patriarch said:
I have no doubt there's cliques of 'underground' cinema creators trying to break out of the norm by being transgressive. The legality of that is probably up in the air.

The legality probably doesn't exist.

Chojin Patriarch said:
...Because of course the Goddamn Nazi Batman has as good an intelligence network as the Goddamn Batgod.

The guy has also worked with them for decades, so he may know them b etter than Paul.

Chojin Patriarch said:
...Mammon while be skating to work before that happens.

Hell may honestly not be interested in the Nazis becoming better.

As long as they're Nazis then they're more likely to go to Hell.

Chojin Patriarch said:
...Okay, care to explain that one? ...Outside of 'Incredibles', I haven't seen any Pixar stuff...

Humanity in that movie became obese and lazy couch potatoes that relied on an evil computer for their survival.

Windona · Sep 8, 2022

Entertainingly this feels like the opposite of complaining that movies are too woke. It makes me feel like the message of Djano Unchained would be interpreted as 'an unusually talented degenerate asserts his superiority with the aid of a German who discovered his unusual talent'

Steelplaza · Sep 8, 2022

I suppose at the end of the day there's no point in getting mad about what a weak sauce "I'll send them a bunch of random Sci-fi/Fantasy movies" reform effort this is, because after all it's a story and the point of the scene is Nazi Batman getting to crack wise on a selection of movies we're familiar with. It sure isn't where I figured "being a traditional superhero" was going to go, but I guess sometimes you have to follow your muse and Mr Zoat had some bangers for Nazi Batman making sick burns on Sky High.

I don't want to run afoul of the politics rule, but it's hard not to think how Paul's plan is reminiscent of a bunch of stuff I saw 20 years ago about how how cultural exports to China were going to lead to a dramatic change in Chinese culture in ways that the western world would find pleasing.

Lothlo · Sep 8, 2022

Darko said:
This was an actual thing?
I thought it was just a joke.

no it wasn't. The actor who played Jar Jar talked about how his character story was completely different on the second film. It also goes along the tropes of the 'hidden master' of fairytales (the creature/old man that acts as a bufoon is secretly a hidden máster, ex: Yoda on SW5). And thete is a video on youtube about the Jar Jar sith theory, where they explain all the proof that support it: every time he waves his hands he convinces someone (made gungan general, creation of Army). Whenever someone speaks, you see him on the background mouthing what is about to be said, ambush droid scene on naboo where he 'falls' from a second floor, he does a double jump to another safer place (B1 can be seen tracking him on theair)

Windona · Sep 8, 2022

It was a joke, the scene in the script of AotC that was removed was of Jar Jar code switching between Diplospeak and his own dialect.

Huh, wonder was Earth 10 Dr Mist thinks of all this. Probably 'slapping a bandaid on an infected bullet wound' opinion

Ngamer11 · Sep 8, 2022

Windona said:
Huh, wonder was Earth 10 Dr Mist thinks of all this. Probably 'slapping a bandaid on an infected bullet wound' opinion

I think so too. Although, he doesn't really have much of a leg to stand on about this, as he made the conscious decision to not interfere with things like war. Considering his level of power, I think he could have at least made it so that the Allies weren't completely annihilated so that there would be at least one country that wasn't dominated by National Socialist culture.

Mr Zoat · Sep 8, 2022

Steelplaza said:
I don't want to run afoul of the politics rule, but it's hard not to think how Paul's plan is reminiscent of a bunch of stuff I saw 20 years ago about how how cultural exports to China were going to lead to a dramatic change in Chinese culture in ways that the western world would find pleasing.

I take it that at this point everyone has already seen the Chinese washing powder advert where they put a black man into the washing machine and he comes out Chinese?

Heck, if flipping Dynasty can change Communist Romania then Western films change China, so long as they keep making Western films rather than forcing everyone else to watch China-friendly films.

Windona said:
Huh, wonder was Earth 10 Dr Mist thinks of all this. Probably 'slapping a bandaid on an infected bullet wound' opinion

Doesn't know it's happening. They aren't allowed cinemas.

Windona · Sep 8, 2022

Meant the denazification efforts in general, but fair enough.

It will probably help that Overman is supporting the efforts for cultural change.

Bud-E · Sep 8, 2022

Mr Zoat is Overman publically against Nazi ideals and disavowing them or is he trying to subtly change the beliefs of those in power? Cause correct me if I'm wrong but he's the one in charge of practically everything on his earth if he wants to make big changes like that who could stop him?

Assblaster5000 · Sep 8, 2022

Bud-E said:
Cause correct me if I'm wrong but he's the one in charge of practically everything on his earth if he wants to make big changes like that who could stop him?

Red Son Superman was largely in charge of his Earth, this one is just well liked by its people.

A mainline comic accurate Superman could just dismantle everything that's been built up by The Reich in seconds if he was taking his time, Kryptonian technology or not, but a WTR style one would have to be quite smart about it. For Overman to actually try and fix things he sort of needs to take it slow.

Mr Zoat · Sep 8, 2022

Bud-E said:
Mr Zoat is Overman publically against Nazi ideals and disavowing them or is he trying to subtly change the beliefs of those in power? Cause correct me if I'm wrong but he's the one in charge of practically everything on his earth if he wants to make big changes like that who could stop him?

He's openly disavowed the genocide and 'excesses of the Hitler period'. He's not in charge of the government mostly because he can't bring himself to be involved. If he wanted to ram something through and was prepared to fight everyone on the planet, he could probably do it. But he wants reform.

CTrees · Sep 8, 2022

Lothlo said:
no it wasn't. The actor who played Jar Jar talked about how his character story was completely different on the second film.

If you have a link, I'd appreciate it, because otherwise I don't think that's true. I do recall when the fan theory first started making the rounds, and I'm fairly certain it originated from a high effort reddit post. Here is Ahmed Best (Jar Jar's actor) saying how much he likes the theory, but he definitely doesn't say that Jar Jar Binks was actually supposed to be a Sith Lord: https://comicbook.com/starwars/news...-details-how-the-darth-jar-jar-theories-made/

Lothlo · Sep 8, 2022

CTrees said:
If you have a link, I'd appreciate it, because otherwise I don't think that's true. I do recall when the fan theory first started making the rounds, and I'm fairly certain it originated from a high effort reddit post. Here is Ahmed Best (Jar Jar's actor) saying how much he likes the theory, but he definitely doesn't say that Jar Jar Binks was actually supposed to be a Sith Lord: https://comicbook.com/starwars/news...-details-how-the-darth-jar-jar-theories-made/

that's a compilation of all the "Strange things" he does during the 1st and some of the second film. Including him "whispering" what some characters are saying at the same time.
https://twitter.com/ahmedbest/status/661221044712148993?lang=en
the tweet from jar jar binks actor, supposedly referring to the "sith theory" (when the theory came out by 2015 and got really popular)
Not saying is true or not, few people know and fewer will confirm it

kerleth · Sep 8, 2022

I have to say that I love some of the irony in this thread. Half a dozen people saying "What's the deal with star wars? All I could think of was this?" Then it turns out they each bring up completely different examples while wondering how anyone might think that. I'm not even trying to make some sort of point, that's just hilarious.

With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

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