With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Vaermina · 2025-01-08T08:28:15+0000

Ardy said:
As is typical, I see nothing on the page you cited that supports that Tau technology cannot resist scrapcode as well or better than Imperial tech.

You mean other then the fact it's warp powered and Tau technology has no ability to resist sorcery effects?

You'll have to forgive me for expecting at least a minimum bit of knowledge about the setting we were discussing.

Mr Zoat said:
I sit back in the chair, smiling faintly as the ring notifies me that someone tried to set off the explosive. "You lack our virtues, and try to pretend they're vices to make yourself feel better about your inadequacy. You want to know what the ancients would have thought of you? You're a child proudly displaying a full potty. And then replacing your own organs with the contents. Your civilisation disgusts me profoundly."

Played straight this would have resulted in a full crusade being assembled against the Tau.

Honestly, I'm really starting to wonder what's the point of you expanding into other settings if you're going to just alter most of those settings to be whatever you want. Like, why even use them in the first place then?

Mr Zoat · 2025-01-08T08:36:56+0000

Neruz said:
As far as I am aware there isn't any lore on the subject, largely because nobody currently alive in the 42nd millennium other than the Ruinous Powers and those serving them know how gods actually form, and they sure as shit cannot be trusted.

I'm pretty sure that the eldar do. They couldn't really miss it.

Chojin Patriarch said:
So a cover from decades later. Possibly remixed to high heck and back.

'Decades'? Hah!

Not that he could understand the words, both versions of Imperial Gothic not being English, and I doubt P'ol would extend him the courtesy of Ring translation.

I see this a lot, so I'm going to correct you immediately and hope that stops the tide of ignorance.

Low Gothic is not a language.

A Low Gothic dialect is any langauge based on High Gothic that is not pure High Gothic. This was directly stated at the back of the 3rd Edition rulebook. There is no spoken or written language called Low Gothic.

Nothing damning about asking a question, after all.

Are you new?

Though I suppose who you ask and what you ask about count for a lot.

Not really.

Ooh, a C'tan phase sword. Old Necron technology used by the Callidus temple. Notable for basically ignoring nearly any kind of shielding technology (On the tabletop, it ignores Invulnerable Saves.)

It's a 2nd Edition phase sword. It ignores everything.

Rebu said:
You know it's funny. I didn't actually click the link so I recognized the song just from the description alone. And I don't think I've even ever noticed that the narrator in that song was talking to a priest.

He's not. I think she's supposed to be a police officer, but explaining Peelian principles to a arbitrator would be rather difficult.

Neruz · 2025-01-08T08:38:25+0000

Vaermina said:
You mean other then the fact it's warp powered and Tau technology has no ability to resist sorcery effects?

You'll have to forgive me for expecting at least a minimum bit of knowledge about the setting we were discussing.

Interestingly despite what has been said about Scrap Code in various sources, there is no evidence that it has ever affected anyone other than the Imperium and Imperium-related factions.

While certain in-universe sources claim that Scrap Code is basically unstoppable and can infect anything, that is not actually what has ever been depicted in any stories. In fact we have multiple stories where 'normal' AIs are able to successfully fight off Scrap Code, such as the short story Myriad and the novella Cybernetica.

The idea that Scrap Code is this undefeatable superweapon that can easily ruin any computer that doesn't have human brains wired into it appears to be nothing more than propaganda, and indeed it seems like AdMech technology is more vulnerable to Scrap Code than the technology of other factions. (Possibly because Scrap Code is specialized for AdMech systems and has difficulty adapting to alien system architecture.)

e:

Mr Zoat said:
I'm pretty sure that the eldar do. They couldn't really miss it.

They know in the general sense that if you pile a bunch of souls together into the Warp you eventually get a god out of it, since that's what they did to make Slaanesh, and it was at least partially deliberate. But they don't know how their gods were created since the Old Ones did that for them and any information on what exactly the Old Ones did to create their original pantheon is almost certainly long lost.

And of course they basically did the same thing again with Ynnead, except more 'directed' since they learned from their mistake with Slaanesh that if you don't control the 'shape' the god forms it will shape itself into something that you probably won't like.

But I would argue that the fact that Slaanesh turned out the way it did, which was very definitely not the way the Aeldari wanted it to turn out, proves that they don't really know what they are doing in regards to creating gods.

WereDragon · 2025-01-08T08:41:08+0000

Mr Zoat said:
"Why are you here?"

I don't believe he answered this question. In the meta of course him being there is just framing for the SI to do some soapboxing, as is the tendency. But there is generally at least a fig-leaf in-universe reason.

Vaermina · 2025-01-08T09:11:39+0000

Neruz said:
Interestingly despite what has been said about Scrap Code in various sources, there is no evidence that it has ever affected anyone other than the Imperium and Imperium-related factions.

Elder technology is psychic and warded, Ork technology runs off of belief, Necron technology is anti-warp by its very nature, and Tyranids don't have technology.

The only other non-imperium aligned technology using faction is the Tau, and they have encountered the forces of Chaos all of once, during which time they got absolutely wrecked till a literal dues ex machina appeared and made the Chaos fleet attacking them disappear.

Neruz said:
While certain in-universe sources claim that Scrap Code is basically unstoppable and can infect anything, that is not actually what has ever been depicted in any stories. In fact we have multiple stories where 'normal' AIs are able to successfully fight off Scrap Code, such as the short story Myriad and the novella Cybernetica.

General reminder here that all Noosphere based Imperium systems are scrapcode resistant by their very nature.

Secondary reminder, Imperium systems are protected by the Faith system, which is a real effect only capable of being generated by humans.

Neruz · 2025-01-08T09:50:14+0000

Vaermina said:
Elder technology is psychic and warded, Ork technology runs off of belief, Necron technology is anti-warp by its very nature, and Tyranids don't have technology.

The only other non-imperium aligned technology using faction is the Tau, and they have encountered the forces of Chaos all of once, during which time they got absolutely wrecked till a literal dues ex machina appeared and made the Chaos fleet attacking them disappear.

There are plenty of other non-imperium minor factions, and of course there's the Votann now as well, and while the lore for them remains sparse there's no indication that their big ole ancestor computer thingies are unable to defend themselves from Chaotic influence.

Especially since we have at least one example of a 'normal' DAoT AI that explicitly fought off Scrap Code in Myriad, and of course there's UR-025 who has been wandering around the galaxy for nearly 20 thousand years and he's still fine despite poking his nose into all kinds of dangerous stuff such as a Blackstone Fortress.

It's possible that none of the other factions have ever run into Scrap Code, because it isn't really very common outside of AdMech and Dark Mechanicum books, and that 'normal' DAoT AI's have some kind of super special systems that let them fight off Scrap Code in a way that other, more primitive AI's cannot.

But it's also just as possible that the sources that talk up how incredibly unstoppable Scrap Code is are simply exaggerating its effectiveness and that it can in fact be defeated by typical AI's under the right circumstances.

And of course, this being Warhammer, it is also very likely that how effective Scrap Code is varies wildly from author to author and so whether anything stands a chance against Scrap Code depends entirely on who is writing the story and what it is about.

Vaermina said:
Secondary reminder, Imperium systems are protected by the Faith system, which is a real effect only capable of being generated by humans.

I have no idea what you mean by this, there is nothing in 40k lore called 'the Faith system'.

If you are talking about faith in general being a protection against Chaos, that is absolutely not unique to humans: It's a function of the Emperor, not faith itself, which is why it is specifically faith in the Emperor that protects from Chaos. Theoretically any powerful enough Warp entity could also provide the same protection, and indeed faith in Ynnead does appear to protect Aeldari from Slaanesh, as the Ynnari do not need soulstones anymore.

Darko · 2025-01-08T09:58:34+0000

Neruz said:
I have no idea what you mean by this, there is nothing in 40k lore called 'the Faith system

I think they're talking about faith affecting reality.

Which I think is only for recent additions concerning the Tech-Priests.

Before newer authors started treating the Imperium as if it was actually worth anything, the tech priests basically worked with tech that they didn't understand and attributed its function to spirits, even if they didn't exist and were just broken down AI.

And I don't see why Tau tech wouldn't have psychic protection because of belief.

While the biological Tau are weak in the Warp, they still have populations that have a higher presence in the Warp, like humans, and they number at least in the billions, so they can have magical protection.

Heck, there's apparently a Greater Good deity in the Warp.

Neruz · 2025-01-08T10:05:59+0000

Darko said:
I think they're talking about faith affecting reality.

Which I think is only for recent additions concerning the Tech-Priests.

Before newer authors started treating the Imperium as if it was actually worth anything, the tech priests basically worked with tech that they didn't understand and attributed its function to spirits, even if they didn't exist and were just broken down AI.

And I don't see why Tau tech wouldn't have psychic protection because of belief.

While the biological Tau are weak in the Warp, they still have populations that have a higher presence in the Warp, like humans, and they number at least in the billions, so they can have magical protection.

Heck, there's apparently a Greater Good deity in the Warp.

I don't recall anything about faith affecting reality in a general sense, it's fuel\power for the Warp certainly, and thus can have various knock-on effects in reality under the right circumstances, but faith on its own is nothing more than that.

The Goddess T'au'va is indeed a recently birthed Warp entity, presumably created from the souls of the T'au's various psychically attuned client races (like humans) clumping together in the Warp under the auspices of the Greater Good.

We don't really know a whole lot about T'au'va other than the fact that she does appear to be aligned with the T'au Empire and is not a friend to Chaos. Though of course it is by no means impossible that she is actually a Daemon playing some kind of long con, as it definitely wouldn't be the first time something like that happened.

T'au'va also implies that she is still very weak in comparison to other powers, likening herself to "a seed cast to the wind", so how far her influence extends and how strong it is in the grand scheme of things is debatable. At the very least all her established feats fall well within the bounds of what any random Greater Daemon could accomplish.

néocorvinus · 2025-01-08T12:02:58+0000

Independant Daemons and other Warp Entities can be formed by a single significant act. Greater Daemons can ravage planets single-handedly.

Why wouldn't worldwide worship based on a few events not form a Warp Entity feeding on worship and calling itself a god since it is what its worshippers call it?

Just because it wouldn't have been as powerful as the Chaos or Eldar Gods doesn't mean Christianity didn't spawn a Warp God

CTrees · 2025-01-08T12:14:18+0000

Mr Zoat said:
Ah… The God of Christianity didn't really have a name other than 'god'.

There are... rather a lot of names for the Christian God, actually. The LORD, I Am That I Am, various other interpretations of the tetrragrammaton YHWH, Adonai, El Shaddai, plus there's Jesus Christ, the Trinity, The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit... it's not a short list.

Mr Zoat · 2025-01-08T13:11:00+0000

WereDragon said:
I don't believe he answered this question. In the meta of course him being there is just framing for the SI to do some soapboxing, as is the tendency. But there is generally at least a fig-leaf in-universe reason.

'To deal with the genestealers, but you seem to have it in hand', if you're curious.

Neruz said:
The Goddess T'au'va is indeed a recently birthed Warp entity, presumably created from the souls of the T'au's various psychically attuned client races (like humans) clumping together in the Warp under the auspices of the Greater Good.

This is really dumb, and as such I will be ignoring it.

If it took the far more psychic eldar ten thousand years to create a new god then there's no way that the human converts of the Tau Empire could have done it in a couple of centuries.

haralo99 · 2025-01-08T13:20:11+0000

does anyone know what the other 40k sections are called? I skipped them the first time. now I want to read them.

Mr Zoat · 2025-01-08T13:38:16+0000

haralo99 said:
does anyone know what the other 40k sections are called? I skipped them the first time. now I want to read them.

haralo99 · 2025-01-08T13:41:32+0000

thanks

Darko · 2025-01-08T13:59:04+0000

Mr Zoat said:
If it took the far more psychic eldar ten thousand years to create a new god then there's no way that the human converts of the Tau Empire could have done it in a couple of centuries

Humans aren't exactly the only psychic species in the Tau Empire.

Plus the Eldar did have gods before Slaanesh, so that could have delayed their birth.

And the Tau deity may just be fairly minor compared to Slaanesh.

Lazurman · 2025-01-08T14:32:16+0000

Mr Zoat said:
If it took the far more psychic eldar ten thousand years to create a new god then there's no way that the human converts of the Tau Empire could have done it in a couple of centuries.

The barrier between reality and unreality has gotten considerably thin, as of late, in comparison to the Eldar's heyday. Might have had an effect, methinks.

Sordid Snake · 2025-01-08T17:54:09+0000

Mr Zoat said:
"I don't. I respect the Emperor for his tremendous ongoing sacrifice, but… Ah… Obviously I didn't look at the Imperium of Man and say 'yes, the being who created this is clearly a faultless divinity'."

I don't know if its possible to do better than Emps.

First the four crabs never let any one of them get above the other three, but they all cooperate to prevent anyone else from getting above the four of them. He tries to preempt them, and they try to preempt his preemption and so on ad infinitum.
Secondly poor Emps been rather indisposed (1) for a while (2) and the Imperium is spiralling out in widening gyre.
And thirdly the First Traitor of the Primarchs drew up the plans for the state religion. It is hard to overstate how bad this was. Making Kim Philby the Archbishop of Canterbury would be a minor mistake in staffing compared to this... Letting Jim Jones write a new American Constitution is getting closer but its still not it.

It is hard to sketch out a plan for Emps (or anyone else for that matter) to do better unless you involve OCPs, and any OCP with even a trace of sense wouldn't touch that maelstrom of scum and villainy that is the 40k verse even with a ten universe long infinite dimensional staff.

(1) "Indisposed" has been used as a euphemism for "on the toilet" and "throne" is of course slang for toilet, so there is a multifaceted space for jokes here.

(2) The time he's been trapped on the throne is as about long as the time from the end of the last ice age (end of younger dryas) to now.

WereDragon · 2025-01-08T18:30:51+0000

Mr Zoat said:
'To deal with the genestealers, but you seem to have it in hand', if you're curious.

That is why he was in the system. Why did he board their ship and sit down for a Q&A? Does he just enjoy running over their dogma?

Mr Zoat · 2025-01-08T18:51:40+0000

WereDragon said:
That is why he was in the system. Why did he board their ship and sit down for a Q&A? Does he just enjoy running over their dogma?

Because he wanted to hand over the music. And because it's in both their interests to cooperate to kill the tyranids and Inquisitor Vail is the one who needs to authorise that.

Neruz · 2025-01-08T21:49:08+0000

Mr Zoat said:
If it took the far more psychic eldar ten thousand years to create a new god then there's no way that the human converts of the Tau Empire could have done it in a couple of centuries.

Not just the humans, the T'au have other psychicly attuned client races as well (basically all of them in fact).

But yeah it is pretty absurd that T'au'va gets the title of 'goddess' despite being at best the strength of an average Greater Daemon based on what she is shown to be capable of.

Sordid Snake said:
I don't know if its possible to do better than Emps.

First the four crabs never let any one of them get above the other three, but they all cooperate to prevent anyone else from getting above the four of them. He tries to preempt them, and they try to preempt his preemption and so on ad infinitum.
Secondly poor Emps been rather indisposed (1) for a while (2) and the Imperium is spiralling out in widening gyre.
And thirdly the First Traitor of the Primarchs drew up the plans for the state religion. It is hard to overstate how bad this was. Making Kim Philby the Archbishop of Canterbury would be a minor mistake in staffing compared to this... Letting Jim Jones write a new American Constitution is getting closer but its still not it.

It is hard to sketch out a plan for Emps (or anyone else for that matter) to do better unless you involve OCPs, and any OCP with even a trace of sense wouldn't touch that maelstrom of scum and villainy that is the 40k verse even with a ten universe long infinite dimensional staff.

(1) "Indisposed" has been used as a euphemism for "on the toilet" and "throne" is of course slang for toilet, so there is a multifaceted space for jokes here.

(2) The time he's been trapped on the throne is as about long as the time from the end of the last ice age (end of younger dryas) to now.

The Emperor's mistake regarding Chaos is that he thought that the Ruinous Powers needed worship to survive, and therefore if he stomped out all worship they would wither and die.

This is incorrect; the Chaos Gods gain power from worship yes but they don't need it, so his (rather successful) efforts to stamp out their worship had far less of an effect on their power than he anticipated, leading him to underestimate them (and perhaps overestimate himself) rather severely.

His problem with Chaos was always ignorance; he just didn't fully understand what he was fighting against. This is most apparent with the Thousand Sons' familiar spirits, which he failed to identify as daemons playing a long con and thus inadvertently left Magnus vulnerable to squidbird's manipulations.

numberman101 · 2025-01-08T21:50:52+0000

Just started reading this fic a few weeks ago and I saw someone comment a few years ago that the original love interest was supposed to be Zatanna
Is this true and if it was why did it get changed?

Mr Zoat · 2025-01-08T22:49:45+0000

I'd like to point out that a lot of the above comes from the Horus Heresy novel series, which I disregard.

The Froggy Ninja · 2025-01-09T00:07:05+0000

Neruz said:
It isn't, you need souls as well: Every single Warp god we have seen was formed from countless billions upon billions of souls at minimum. (And for the Ruinous Powers it was a lot more than that.) Even Furies are created from souls, likely individual souls given how incredibly weak they are by daemonic standards.

That's selection bias though. The Ruinous Powers ate basically everything in the warp during the Age of Strife and the immediate aftermath of Slaanesh's birth. Of course the only survivors were the ones with both massive investments of power and a specific type advantage vs Chaos. Chaos Daemons would be made of souls whether or not it was necessary or not, because they're assholes.

Ardy · 2025-01-09T02:21:46+0000

numberman101 said:
Just started reading this fic a few weeks ago and I saw someone comment a few years ago that the original love interest was supposed to be Zatanna
Is this true and if it was why did it get changed?

Mr Zoat said:
I'd like to point out that a lot of the above comes from the Horus Heresy novel series, which I disregard.

The Horus heresy novels talked about how Zatanna was originally a love interest?

RoninSword · 2025-01-09T02:45:52+0000

numberman101 said:
Just started reading this fic a few weeks ago and I saw someone comment a few years ago that the original love interest was supposed to be Zatanna
Is this true and if it was why did it get changed?

Essentially plot got in the way. It's essentially as Paul explains to people in story. IC Paul felt it would be wrong to try anything while Zatanna was so vulnerable.
Sometimes the plot simply flows away from your plan as you are writing.

Darko · 2025-01-09T03:02:14+0000

Neruz said:
His problem with Chaos was always ignorance; he just didn't fully understand what he was fighting against. This is most apparent with the Thousand Sons' familiar spirits, which he failed to identify as daemons playing a long con and thus inadvertently left Magnus vulnerable to squidbird's manipulations.

That's not necessarily true.

The spirits could have just been non-daemonic Warp beings, but with Chaos making its moves against them, plus the fact that they became daemons after they were attacked, could point to them being corrupted either by Chaos or by the negative emotions of the Thousand Sons.

Valint · 2025-01-09T03:17:55+0000

numberman101 said:
Just started reading this fic a few weeks ago and I saw someone comment a few years ago that the original love interest was supposed to be Zatanna
Is this true and if it was why did it get changed?

I don't know that that was ever true. She was certainly interested in him, but it was mostly one-sided, with him being oblivious until forced to notice it.

The SI's self-image of himself is that he was twenty-nine years old at the start of the story, so even though he looks like a teenager and was treated as one, he was uncomfortable with the age gap. (Yes, there are arguments you can make about what someone in his situation's actual age is and who he can ethically have a relationship; the SI was not interested in making those arguments.)

I can't remember if this was actually stated or if I'm just remembering subtext where none exists, but my recollection was that the SI was at least bicurious and that Paragon/M'gann/Superboy was the most plausible pairing at the start of the fic. (Along those lines, I think there was also some clear hints of Paragon/Lex in the early days, which was not pursued because of Lex's lack of desire to reform.)

Darko · 2025-01-09T03:34:02+0000

Valint said:
(Yes, there are arguments you can make about what someone in his situation's actual age is and who he can ethically have a relationship; the SI was not interested in making those arguments.)

Probably because those arguments can lead to very disturbing places.

Valint said:
I can't remember if this was actually stated or if I'm just remembering subtext where none exists, but my recollection was that the SI was at least bicurious

He once flat out told Jade that he was bisexual.

Prince Charon · 2025-01-09T05:38:14+0000

Darko said:
He once flat out told Jade that he was bisexual.

I thought he might have. Was that before they started dating?

Ardy · 2025-01-09T05:44:53+0000

Prince Charon said:
I thought he might have. Was that before they started dating?

After, it was at the end of their raid on hell and she'd just shot him with the ace of winchesters

With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Well worn.

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HISSSSSS!

Bookwyrm

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Your first time is always over so quickly, isn't it?

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