With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[RichardWhereat]

I happen to think that WW2 had a Amerindian shaman Batman a vastly underused tidbit.

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Why do people call Native Americans, American Indians still?

 

[Mr Zoat]

Why do people call Native Americans, American Indians still?

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Because humans are native to a small area of Africa and immigrants everywhere else?

 

[hkim]

Because humans are native to a small area of Africa and immigrants everywhere else?

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Also because Columbus was a hell of a drug.

 

[RichardWhereat]

Because humans are native to a small area of Africa and immigrants everywhere else?

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While I use your line of reasoning every day to say I'm aboriginal to Australia, they're not from India.

 

[thebishop8]

Why do people call Native Americans, American Indians still?

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[nobodez]

Why do people call Native Americans, American Indians still?

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Apparently it's the preferred term by most nations/tribes here in the United States. CGP Grey did a short video about it as a prequel to a video he's going to be doing.

 

[RichardWhereat]

Apparently it's the preferred term by most nations/tribes here in the United States.

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Ah, cool. So the cycle finally turned back around to it being PC to call them Indians again. Neat. Curiosity sated.

 

[nobodez]

Ah, cool. So the cycle finally turned back around to it being PC to call them Indians again. Neat. Curiosity sated.

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I would not say it's PC to do so, but it's definitely the most widely accepted name used by the peoples inquisition themselves for the group of peoples native to the Contiguous/Continental United States. It's specific. Plus, as one of the commenters noted, it's also a way of poking fun at white people, since the first Europeans in the Americas (to widely spread that knowledge, unlike the Vikings) were too stupid to realize they weren't actually in India (Stupid Columbus!)

 

[RichardWhereat]

Plus, as one of the commenters noted, it's also a way of poking fun at white people, since the first Europeans in the Americas (to widely spread that knowledge, unlike the Vikings) were too stupid to realize they weren't actually in India (Stupid Columbus!)

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Columbus knew he wasn't in india. He thought he was heading towards Japan, but knew where he was, was far too close to Europe to be Japan.

 

[Gilhelmi]

I debated mentioning this, however......

You would be surprised how much of the Genealogical records are now available online now. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints has worked with governments from around the world to digitize and preserve the records. Even China, with all their paranoia, has allowed our missionaries in to digitize records (we are NOT allowed to release those for 500 years mind, but they are preserved now so that the work can be done then). After all, our current Prophet is considered an "Old Friend of China" (hope I got the phrasing right) due to his skill as a heart surgeon and the love and respect given to all nationalities.

Even in Africa, where most genealogical records by "oral tradition", missionaries sit with the people who memorized such things and document their memories.

It is a very exciting time for genealogy nerds like me.

 

[Gilhelmi]

On the topic of Nazi's. I blame the Nazi's more for WW2 than the German's.

The way I see it, Nazis are more about ideology, German is just an Ethnic and/or National Identity. A Nazi actively and willingly participates, the German was left no choice as they were either drafted or otherwise compelled to fight.

I guess to me, blaming Germans for something that their government did would be like blaming the Jews for something Israel did, of all Arabs for something Al-Quida did. Really, no group in the history of man-kind is without a dark past. All people have at least a few murder's and thief's in their ancestry.

 

[RichardWhereat]

I debated mentioning this, however......

You would be surprised how much of the Genealogical records are now available online now.

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Sure, but Paul could also just be lying, so he doesn't give the dangerous bigot any resources about their world.

 

[Gilhelmi]

Sure, but Paul could also just be lying, so he doesn't give the dangerous bigot any resources about their world.

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Not, impossible. However, unless she could adsorb information 'at least' as fast as the Flash, she would not have the time to do anything with it.

Trust me, even with as many records as we have available today, Genealogy is very complicated. Living in America, I have really good records available online. It still takes me around an hour, or more, to find enough documentation to prove that a name is one of MY relatives because 2 people can have the same name (and not be closely related). My Great-Grandmother was a Hardin, as in John Westly Hardin (famous outlaw in the American "Wild" West days). My father was told when he was a child (in the late 1930's) he was not allowed to mention the name around his Grandparents. However, I have never been able to link him to my family. My best theory is either a long distant cousin (pre-1800) or he was cut-off fully from his family who even (somehow) removed him from their records........ OR Hardin was his Mother's maiden name, I never looked into my Great-Great (and Great) Aunts before, focusing on the Great-Great (and Great) Uncles....... There's a few hundred including their spouses families.

Genealogy is fun, but only if you are crazy like me. I enjoy digging through records and beating my head on walls.

 

[Caerwen]

Huh, her Earth's Kryptonians must be a lot different from Earth 16 Kryptonians if they can't have kids with humans.

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Well... Nazis. I imagine their issues with miscegenation had something to do with wanting to make a "suitable" mate for him. Purity of the bloodline would fit the Nazi way of thinking. And yeah, overgirl isn't ' pure ' kryptonion. But it's not like they had a better option. So I think that no one tried to get earth10 Kal to date a human . Else it was assumed by them and/or Kal that man of steel woman of Kleenex would apply if he tried.

 

[Someguy Somewhere]

The logic of accepting Overman as part of the nazi mindset is a bit odd to me.

I mean, he's kryptonian, an alien. He's FAR less human then anyone they termed 'subhuman' on a biological level, yet they praise him and hold him up as an ideal. Evidently the Earth-10 Nazi's favoured Atlantis because their 'origin' story for the Arayan Race was from there.....Earth-16's various breeds of mer-peoples would, again, be still be more genetically human then Overman, but I'd have a feeling they'd come down on the Pure Blood side of things on earth-10.

It just seems like you have to bend logic into a pretzel for them rationalize him into their own mindsets. I mean I see the practical benefit of having a kryptonian friendly to the cause. But how do you make him fit the mold in their rhetoric?

 

[Impatient_Quill]

You know who could sit down and explain this situation to Overgirl much better than Paul?

Hitler's clone and his Black Wife, just to start.

 

[Prince Charon]

The logic of accepting Overman as part of the nazi mindset is a bit odd to me.

I mean, he's kryptonian, an alien. He's FAR less human then anyone they termed 'subhuman' on a biological level, yet they praise him and hold him up as an ideal. Evidently the Earth-10 Nazi's favoured Atlantis because their 'origin' story for the Arayan Race was from there.....Earth-16's various breeds of mer-peoples would, again, be still be more genetically human then Overman, but I'd have a feeling they'd come down on the Pure Blood side of things on earth-10.

It just seems like you have to bend logic into a pretzel for them rationalize him into their own mindsets. I mean I see the practical benefit of having a kryptonian friendly to the cause. But how do you make him fit the mold in their rhetoric?

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By being complete hypocrites?

 

[Old Knife]

Can Overgirl fulfill her mission by getting with match?

 

[Mr Zoat]

14th March
20:59 GMT +1

"Angelika Kant-." She frowns, wiping her eyes with her right hand. "No. Not Kant. Köhler."

"Did your family change their name-?"

"Overman's name is Karl Kant. I took his-. If they survived, they will be Köhler."

"If they were born at all." Ring, get searching. "We're assuming that history is the same up to Kal-El's arrival, but that is an assumption."

The ring shows me a list of Köhler. It's not a short list, and… There is a digitised list from the forties, but it's partial and I'm only allowed to access it legally because this is a Justice League operation. The Stasi really gave big data a bad name.

"You were born in nineteen seventy three?"

She nods. "Yes."

"Parents' names? Including mother's maiden name, if you know it."

"Peter and Gabriele Köhler. I.. don't remember my grandparents. Or what my mother's name was before her marriage."

"Do you remember what part of Germany your family was from?"

"Danzig."

Because she was born after the Nazis were victorious. I suppose that I should be glad she didn't say 'Adolfburg' or something.

"Do you remember their dates of birth, or if they lived anywhere before that?"

She shakes her head, which… I only remember roughly when my parents' birthdays are. It's been twenty eight years for her. But…

"Was the Versailles Treaty the same for you as it was for us, with East Prussia being separated from the rest of Germany by the Polish Corridor?"

"The first Treaty, yes."

"The first?"

"The Fuhrer considered it appropriate for the treaty returning control of occupied France to Marshall Pétain to also be signed in Versailles. Technically, it would be the third treaty since the treaty establishing the French State was also signed there, but that was only an interim measure."

An action that was just as mean-spirited as the original pre-signing train journey by the German delegation through the fields where the French had put German prisoners of war to work. Some people would rather twist the knife than stem the bleeding.

Okay, so, family Köhler, living in East Prussia… They would have been born… In the fifties-.

"How long did the war in Europe last on your Earth?"

"Including Russia?"

"Yes."

"The Soviet Union lost cohesion after the Fall of Moscow in nineteen forty one. Major military purification operations carried on for another year. Britain was effectively removed from the war in Europe in nineteen forty three, after the Battle of Edinburgh. Even after Churchill died, they would not surrender. You should be proud; the British never needed to use blocking battalions or commissars."

Yeah… Great…

"I've got plenty of people called 'Köhler', but… Do you think you could draw one of them-?"

She shakes her head.

"Your parents were born when Germany was stabilising its control over the continent. Here, it would have been when Germany started losing, or just after it lost. The Soviet Army was extremely violent in its treatment of German civilians in the areas it overran. I can show you pictures, but if you won't recognise them…"

I shrug, shaking my head.

"No, of.. course. It was a vain hope; there is no 'Supergirl'."

"No… Two, actually. There's a young woman who uses the name, though she's a magically-augmented human rather than a kryptonian. And there's Kara Zor-El, who's Kal-El's cousin. She doesn't use the name."

"His.. cousin? Other people from Krypton survived here?"

"A very small number. She had a pod like his, but it was damaged when Krypton exploded. She nearly starved to death in suspended animation before we recovered her."

"Would-? Would she exist in my universe-? No, no." She shakes her head. "We have no way to know how different Krypton's history is."

Hm. Karsta was already working on her farm in the nineteen thirties. The Kryptonian Navy had already been stood down… Though more recently. Jor-El might actually have found it easier to build the pods than he did here, since he could just buy parts from the recently-decommissioned ships rather than having to make them himself in secret. Or just requisition a ship outright, depending on exactly-.

"She would be dead in my universe, wouldn't she?"

"It's impossible to say. Our Zor-El wanted her to end up on Xudar, so she might just be there."

No, she wouldn't. Zor-El might have been prepared to indulge his brother and not insist that Kara immediately fly to Earth to rescue his nephew, but she'd be just as eager to meet him as he was her. If she could, she'd have travelled to Earth 10 by now.

"I have to get back. I must tell Overman that he might have a surviving blood-relative."

"We weren't planning on keeping you here."

But what to do with her now? The initial shock seems to have worn off, at least a little. If Doctor Sivana couldn't get a useful reading from her then no one can, so there isn't anything the League need her for.

Back to the attempted denazification. Or… Denational socialismification.

"I tried doing the same thing, you know."

She's not really looking at me, but at least she's not looking at a peaceful street like it pooed on her mother's grave. "What do you mean?"

"When I first arrived on this version of Earth. I tried going-. Well, not 'home'… It doesn't exist here. But to the nearest town. Then I tried tracing my genealogy. A man who might have been my Granddad was killed when Baron Reiter tore apart the ship he was serving on. Or it might just have been a man with the same name." I shake my head. "I wasn't able to track down anyone else."

"You..? The.. portals have-."

"No, no, I didn't come through one of those. We still don't know how I got here, though.. you did come through in the same place."

"What… Was your world like?"

"No superheroes or supervillains. History in general is.. surprisingly similar. Technology is about five years behind and there are a lot more people." I shrug. "But I'm familiar with the idea of superheroes, while I doubt that Nazis-"

"National Socialists."

"-bothered-." I frown. "Why do you keep doing that?"

"Because we are not-." She sighs. "'Nazi' is an abbreviation of 'Ignatius'."

"Okay?"

"You're saying that we're a lot of ignorant Bavarian peasants. It used to mean that before our enemies started using it for National Socialists."

And -to be fair- for all their anti-scientific habits they certainly aren't peasants.

"Okay, well, I suspect that National Socialists haven't spent all that much time imagining what the world would be like if they lost."

"We have. We just thought it would be…" She looks around. "Worse." She shrugs. "After all, how could it not?" She shakes her head. "I do not want to be here. It is too… Familiar. What part of the world do you live in?"

 

[Ardy]

..... If he shows her the mountain, I'm giving even odds on her joining the Team.

Thank god WW2 isn't modern politics.

edit: fucking called it!

 

[thebishop8]

Here's it would have been when Germany started losing, or just after it lost.

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Change "Here's" to "Here".

 

[RichardWhereat]

You know who could sit down and explain this situation to Overgirl much better than Paul?

Hitler's clone and his Black Wife, just to start.

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Oh, you are just a treat.
PAUL! Do this!

 

[Darko]

Potential meeting with the Team coming up?
And yeah, bring on the clone

 

[Handlewithcare]

Hm. What are Nazi Earths relationships with aliens like?

If they have any contact at all, there must have been examples of inclusive, prospering societies? Which would also explain Overman's ideology shift.

I mean, Overman himself is pretty shizophrenic if you think about it. An alien more accepted than other humans because of his looks and abilities, yet fundamentally far more different.

Any "National Socialist" with half a brain would realise that he was accepted because of his useful powers and question why other humans aren't judged by their abilities.

But then, few people accuse "National Socialists" of sound reasoning.

 

[Ganurath]

..... If he shows her the mountain, I'm giving even odds on her joining the Team.

Thank god WW2 isn't modern politics.

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I thought he still lives in Gotham?

 

[Mr Zoat]

Change "Here's" to "Here".

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Thank you, corrected.

I mean, Overman himself is pretty shizophrenic if you think about it. An alien more accepted than other humans because of his looks and abilities, yet fundamentally far more different.

Any "National Socialist" with half a brain would realise that he was accepted because of his useful powers and question why other humans aren't judged by their abilities.

But then, few people accuse "National Socialists" of sound reasoning.

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Hitler's official stance was that Overman was a human from the future.

I thought he still lives in Gotham?

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Yes, but he thought that she needed less stimulation.

 

[Chojin Patriarch]

"Angelika Kant-." She frowns, wiping her eyes with her right hand. "No. Not Kant. Köhler."

"Did your family change their name-?"

"Overman's name is Karl Kant. I took his-. If they survived, they will be Köhler."

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If they even existed at all.

Spoiler: Commentary spoilered for length

"If they were born at all." Ring, get searching. "We're assuming that history is the same up to Kal-El's arrival, but that is an assumption."

The ring shows me a list of Köhler. It's not a short list, and… There is a digitised list from the forties, but it's partial and I'm only allowed to access it legally because this is a Justice League operation. The Stasi really gave big data a bad name.

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So very little info, and most of it in secure archives. Likelihood of finding anything lowering.

"You were born in nineteen seventy three?"

She nods. "Yes."

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Great, now I feel old. I'm only three years later.

"Parents' names? Including mother's maiden name, if you know it."

"Peter and Gabriele Köhler. I.. don't remember my grandparents. Or what my mother's name was before her marriage."

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Chance of finding anything now extremely slim...

"Do you remember what part of Germany your family was from?"

"Danzig."

Because she was born after the Nazis were victorious. I suppose that I should be glad she didn't say 'Adolfburg' or something.

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Nah, Adolfburg would likely have been his birthplace renamed...

"Do you remember their dates of birth, or if they lived anywhere before that?"

She shakes her head, which… I only remember roughly when my parents' birthdays are. It's been twenty eight years for her. But…

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You're not the only one, OL. I suspect most people don't remember such dates very well.

"Was the Versailles Treaty the same for you as it was for us, with East Prussia being separated from the rest of Germany by the Polish Corridor?"

"The first Treaty, yes."

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No doubt he had the French sign their total surrender in Versailles, just to rub it in...

"The first?"

"The Fuhrer considered it appropriate for the treaty returning control of occupied France to Marshall Pétain to also be signed in Versailles. Technically, it would be the third treaty since the treaty establishing the French State was also signed there, but that was only an interim measure."

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Ha! I knew it.

An action that was just as mean-spirited as the original pre-signing train journey by the German delegation through the fields where the French had put German prisoners of war to work. Some people would rather twist the knife than stem the bleeding.

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That's human nature, alas. the opposite can be a rarity.

Okay, so, family Köhler, living in East Prussia… They would have been born… In the fifties-.

"How long did the war in Europe last on your Earth?"

"Including Russia?"

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Oh, I can just see the Eastern Front going far differently...

"Yes."

"The Soviet Union lost cohesion after the Fall of Moscow in nineteen forty one. Major military purification operations carried on for another year. Britain was effectively removed from the war in Europe in nineteen forty three, after the Battle of Edinburgh. Even after Churchill died, they would not surrender. You should be proud; the British never needed to use blocking battalions or commissars."

Yeah… Great…

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Well, I suppose she learnt her history well...

"I've got plenty of people called 'Köhler', but… Do you think you could draw one of them-?"

She shakes her head.

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Even for a Kryptonian memory, which she's not likely to have, that would be tough.

"Your parents were born when Germany was stabilising its control over the continent. Here's it would have been when Germany started losing, or just after it lost. The Soviet Army was extremely violent in its treatment of German civilians in the areas it overran. I can show you pictures, but if you won't recognise them…"

I shrug, shaking my head.

"No, of.. course. It was a vain hope; there is no 'Supergirl'."

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Heheh, she is in for a surprise...

"No… Two, actually. There's a young woman who uses the name, though she's a magically-augmented human rather than a kryptonian. And there's Kara Zor-El, who's Kal-El's cousin. She doesn't use the name."

"His.. cousin? Other people from Krypton survived here?"

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I still have my bet placed on her becoming Power Girl sometime in the future.

"A very small number. She had a pod like his, but it was damaged when Krypton exploded. She nearly starved to death in suspended animation before we recovered her."

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Prognosis for Renegade timeline's version: Oh, she's so dead.

"Would-? Would she exist in my universe-? No, no." She shakes her head. "We have no way to know how different Krypton's history is."

Hm. Karsta was already working on her farm in the nineteen thirties. The Kryptonian Navy had already been stood down… Though more recently. Jor-El might actually have found it easier to build the pods than he did here, since he could just buy parts from the recently-decommissioned ships rather than having to make them himself in secret. Or just requisition a ship outright, depending on exactly-.

"She would be dead in my universe, wouldn't she?"

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Well, it's likely to be moot, unless Overman can travel interstellar distances, much less safely visit Krypton's location to try and find a trail...

"It's impossible to say. Our Zor-El wanted her to end up on Xudar, so she might just be there."

No, she wouldn't. Zor-El might have been prepared to indulge his brother and not insist that Kara immediately fly to Earth to rescue his nephew, but she'd be just as eager to meet him as he was her. If she could, she'd have travelled to Earth 10 by now.

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So, not likely.

"I have to get back. I must tell Overman that he might have a surviving blood-relative."

"We weren't planning on keeping you here."

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It's probably safer to try and get her heading home ASAP, if only because Overman is almost certainly looking for her already...

But what to do with her now? The initial shock seems to have worn off, at least a little. If Doctor Sivana couldn't get a useful reading from her then no one can, so there isn't anything the League need her for.

Back to the attempted denazification. Or… Denational socialismification.

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You aren't going to wipe away a lifetime of indoctrination in a day or two, unfortunately... Shake it up a little, maybe.

"I tried doing the same thing, you know."

She's not really looking at me, but at least she's not looking at a peaceful street like it pooed on her mother's grave. "What do you mean?"

"When I first arrived on this version of Earth. I tried going-. Well, not 'home'… It doesn't exist here. But to the nearest town. Then I tried tracing my genealogy. A man who might have been my Granddad was killed when Baron Reiter tore apart the ship he was serving on. Or it might just have been a man with the same name." I shake my head. "I wasn't able to track down anyone else."

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Huh, that would explain his family not existing here. And his home town probably never got built due to the lower population...

"You..? The.. portals have-."

"No, no, I didn't come through one of those. We still don't know how I got here, though.. you did come through in the same place."

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Which could be significant in itself.

"What… Was your world like?"

"No superheroes or supervillains. History in general is.. surprisingly similar. Technology is about five years behind and there are a lot more people." I shrug. "But I'm familiar with the idea of superheroes, while I doubt that Nazis-"

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It's a much more boring place, really...

"National Socialists."

"-bothered-." I frown. "Why do you keep doing that?"

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Good question. It's a bit more than a verbal tic, evidently...

"Because we are not-." She sighs. "'Nazi' is an abbreviation of 'Ignatius'."

"Okay?"

"You're saying that we're a lot of ignorant Bavarian peasants. It used to mean that before our enemies started using it for National Socialists."

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...Well, then. That explains so much...

And -to be fair- for all their anti-scientific habits they certainly aren't peasants.

"Okay, well, I suspect that National Socialists haven't spent all that much time imagining what the world would be like if they lost."

"We have. We just thought it would be…" She looks around. "Worse." She shrugs. "After all, how could it not?" She shakes her head. "I do not want to be here. It is too… Familiar. What part of the world do you live in?"

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Oh, boy. I don't think Gotham is going to be an impressive example of Earth 16's culture, even if it has been getting better...

Seriously, Overman must be worried about his daughter. I've no doubt he's already searched all of Earth 10 by now, and is looking further afield. Assuming whatever caused the red skies and portals hasn't killed him...

 

[Mr Zoat]

Huh, that would explain his family not existing here. And his home town probably never got built due to the lower population...

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My parents were the first part of my family to live in this part of the country. My father's family come from Ipswich and my mother's family live in Gloucestershire.

 

[Opossum89]

My parents were the first part of my family to live in this part of the country. My father's family come from Ipswich and my mother's family live in Gloucestershire.

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When people say Ipswich i think of the town next to Innsmouth Massachusetts from lovecraft. Do any of your family have a... peculiar look?

 

[RichardWhereat]

My parents were the first part of my family to live in this part of the country. My father's family come from Ipswich and my mother's family live in Gloucestershire.

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Your dad's a Queenslander? Nice.