With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Senevri · Jan 1, 2020

Gets Shot said:
The Problem with trying to use this argument against nazis is that they believe that being some other racial type is a genetic disorder.

Yeah, but how do you respond to that? "race-lift" probably seems offensive or at least pointless to us, but with scifi tech, it's quite harmless.
I mean, only barbarians would resort to culling or sterilization, right?

Mr Zoat · Jan 1, 2020

ForeverShogo said:
And that's all I can think of without spending a bunch of time trying to figure out what Nazism minus the racism would actually look like.

Sky High.

Dur'id the Druid said:
This entire discussion is reminding me of Harry Turtledove's World War series. Has anyone read any of that? It is an alternate history where colony ships from an alien civilization that call themselves The Race start invading earth during world war two. Germany survives, but has to deal with the consequences of its treatment of other races.

Did it? They lost a war with the Race and got occupied, but they were still around at the end.

Eponymic said:
Extent?

Thank you, corrected.

Darko said:
Will the paragon meet Mordru?

Maybe.

Whats the story with the Hat in the mandated timeline?
Was he a magician with a demonic hat that became a Lord of Chaos and was then employed by the Chinese?
Or was he someone that already worked for the Chinese and then was ordered to become a Lord of Chaos because they wanted the power?

Will you show Manitou and Dawn Raven in the paragon storyline, aside from that mention when he was thinking about Adoms friends?
Whats the story with Adoms former teammate Gamemnae in your story?
Did she try to raise Atlantis to the surface using unethical means, like living sacrifices, or did she experiment with the grafts the atlanteans have like she did in the comics?

Okay, I'm cutting you off.

Darko · Jan 1, 2020

Sorry sorry

Moderation it is

thebishop8 · Jan 1, 2020

Darko and Mr Zoat:

nick012000 · Jan 1, 2020

ForeverShogo said:
Which is . . . Uhhh . . . They were the first government to put forward smoking bans. Or to pass comprehensive laws for animal welfare and rights. And their welfare programs for children and their mothers were pretty good.

And that's all I can think of without spending a bunch of time trying to figure out what Nazism minus the racism would actually look like.

I'd guess it'd combine together the two words in the name: "national" (with "nation" referring to its meaning that means "ethnic group") and "socialism".

In essence, each government should ideally govern one ethnic group, and its primary goals should be to support the needs of that ethnic group, rather than those of foreigners or elite businessmen or politicians.

ForeverShogo · Jan 2, 2020

I suppose the question would be how many ethno-states actually exist on Earth 10.

Some shit is certainly implied when one of the first reactions Overman has to Uncle Sam and the Freedom Fighters is shock that they're speaking English. Which, on Earth 10, is officially considered to be a dead language.

So you can probably assume they annexed and Germanized certain nations. I could see wanked to hell and back comic book Greater Germany encompassing all of Europe, the Americas, and most of (a very empty) Africa.

Probably an Arab state. Turkey and Iran would both be their own things. A lot of the Central Asian nations would probably be organized as Turkestan. Afghanistan and what would be Pakistan would probably be organized as Pashtunstan. India, Nepal, and Bhutan as Hindustan.

Then pretty much everything else would be under Japan and their Co-Prosperity Sphere. Figuring out the particulars of that would be a fucking treat, unless they managed to convince Japan to Japanize most of Asia and Oceania.

Could probably bring it down to like a dozen ethno-states. The German Super State and then the others.

Hmm. Fuck it. I could probably throw together another HoI4 map for this.

Well . . . It's either that or, because this is wacky comic book shenanigans, the Nazis literally annexed everything and Humanity is almost exclusively White on Earth 10. But I'll pretend otherwise when throwing together that map.

Darko · Jan 2, 2020

It is possible that the nazis jusr conquered Europe and America and possibly several other places, but only colonised those two to any significant degree while probably simply taking any resources and taxing any other nations.
We will see if Zoat explains the situation on earth 10 further.

Though I really wonder if he is still planning to bring up Schreiber, and if he is then will he have a speaking role or will he just tell Angelika?
Either way it is bound to be a hilarious case of schadenfreude, painful for her but hilarious for us.

Mr Zoat · Jan 2, 2020

14th March
16:11 GMT -5

"You did this?"

Ah, she's located my brief fling with genocide, a reconstruction of the destruction of the Citadel Complex playing on the screen.

"A few friends and I, yes."

"You purged them."

"I prefer precise descriptions. We didn't feed them laxatives after all. We exterminated them. And I'm slightly uncomfortable that it feels like you're going to imply there's no difference between what I did and what your forebears did."

"What do you think the difference is?"

"There was a story a Jew who escaped N-. National Socialist-" She nods appreciatively. "-Germany. He'd fought in the First World War and been awarded an Iron Cross. But the restrictions on Jews were getting worse and he didn't particularly want to get murdered. So he withdrew his money from his bank, packed his suitcase and headed for the border. The border guard wanted to examine the contents, because it was illegal to take more than a certain amount of money out. So he handed it over, the guard popped it open, took one look at the Iron Cross on top, heiled him, closed the suitcase without examining it and handed it back."

"If a Jew had an Iron Cross then he stole it."

"Eighteen thousand Jews won an Iron Cross during World War One." I point to the monitor. "Feel free to look it up. I can't promise that there are scans of the individual certificates attached, but unlike the National Socialist Party we haven't purged our archives. Heck, there were even a few Jews who won an Iron Cross during the Second World War, fighting for Finland."

She's already accessing the archives of the German military, which has made a point of ensuring that the information is easy to locate. Truth isn't a perfect tool for keeping out National Socialist mind control efforts, but I suppose that you do what you can.

"Jews in the World War One military served disproportionately in front line roles-."

"There were no front line Jewish officers."

"True, but that was because it was illegal for them to be given front line commands, not because they were ducking them. Honestly, it's like-."

"Recognized, Superboy B zero four, Miss Martian, B zero five."

The zeta tube lights dim, and Kon and M'gann stroll in. M'gann's in Megan mode, and neither of them notice Angelika at first. Kon glances my way-

"Hey."

-and then returns his full attention to M'gann.

"Hi there. This is-"

M'gann notices Angelika first, blinks in surprise and then smiles.

"Hi! Um, who-?"

"Overgirl." Since she didn't say I could call her Angelika. "She's a Supergirl-equivalent from a parallel universe. I'm minding her until the League can work out how to send her home."

"Good-." Her eyes fix themselves on Kon's chest. No, Kon's red 'S' on black background emblem. "-afternoon."

Kon gives her a small smile. "Another kryptonian, huh?"

"That is not quite right. It would be more accurate to say that I am a combination of human and kryptonian."

Kon's smile broadens slightly. "So you're more of a me-equivalent." He walks forward and holds out his right hand. "I'm Superboy."

Angelika steps around the hologram and shakes his hand. "Overgirl. Though it sounds strange in English."

"Oh!" M'gann grins. "Are you from a parallel universe where everyone's genders are reversed? Are you dating your Mister Martian?"

"Ah-? No. No, I am not dating a martian."

Though she doesn't appear to feel the same level of visceral disgust at the idea that she did at the idea of dating a 'subhuman'.

"My Earth is not so similar to this one."

Kon nods. "Oh? What's different?"

"We have had access to kryptonian technology for sixty years. Earth technology is far more advanced as a result." She glances back at the screen. "Though this holographic interface is not too different from what I used at home."

"So… Is that it? Did a Kryptonian ship crash-land on Earth or something?"

"No, our.. Superman came to Earth at an earlier point in our history than yours. The people who found him analysed his pod, accessed its data stores and took information from there."

Which… Means that Hitler shared more kryptonian technology with the world than our Kal-El. I… Don't think I want to think about that. Interesting that she's not mentioning the impact of the divergence regarding the Second World War. If she's trying to get someone else's perspective… Fine, that can only help my case. Though I hope she manages to be more subtle than just asking 'so how do you feel about Jews, Superboy?' or something.

Kon nods sympathetically. "Yeah, Superman's not keen on doing that. I don't really get it. I mean, humans already have nuclear missiles and-" His eyes flick my way. "-death rays and stuff, so what difference does it make if they get kryptonian crystal-based construction technology as well? If anything, tougher buildings should make people safer."

Har-Zod isn't in favour of sharing with humans. And Kal-El is the closest thing to legitimate kryptonian authority here. I've… Got a contingency plan for if the League needs to end its relationship with the UN for some reason. The Kryptonian database has all sorts of designs which could be easily marketed without threatening anyone's secret identity, enabling the League to be financially independent and entirely open about where the money was coming from.

"Unfortunately, even kryptonian technology is not impervious to weapons which terrorists can bring to bear."

I might wonder whether or not the Nazis-. The other Nazis would have killed her parents in order to get a test subject. But if there is an ongoing insurgency, they'd hardly need to. Particularly if they didn't have a special reason to think that she would be a success, and particularly given that a German couple who themselves would have grown up in an intensely Nazi-friendly environment would probably have been happy to allow their daughter to become superhuman.

"Sure, but it's better at it than human stuff."

I raise my eyebrows. "What's your armour made out of again?"

"Okay, yeah, but we still can't make enough orichalcum for construction projects."

Sad but true.

"So, what can you do?"

"Everything that Overman can, but to a lesser degree."

Kon frowns. "You can fly?"

"Yes." Overgirl rises into the air. "You cannot fly?"

"No. Didn't have heat vision, either."

"But you do now?"

"Kinda." His eyes blaze with white light and M'gann backs away slightly. "But not from-."

"Recognized, Aqualad, B zero two."

Ohhhh….

Fiddle.

Dur'id the Druid · Jan 2, 2020

Mr Zoat said:
Did it? They lost a war with the Race and got occupied, but they were still around at the end.

Yeah, northern Germany mostly. The race was spread out a lot, so many of the countries continue to exist. And more than a dozen nukes were used. But most of the world is still there, though everyone is recovering from the war and nukes when the first trilogy ends.

Critque @ Zoat: Your getting action saturation here I think. As well as crowding Overgirl. As soon as something is about to happen, another character interrupts.

AkazilliaDeNaro · Jan 2, 2020

Mr Zoat said:
"Recognized, Aqualad, B zero two."

Oh this conversation will go well.

Ardy · Jan 2, 2020

At least it's not Rocket....

Darko · Jan 2, 2020

Ah Team interactions

This is bound to be... entertaining

moralrelativity · Jan 2, 2020

Mr Zoat said:
"Sure, but it's better at it then human stuff."

then -> than
Yes, I know Kon's a US citizen, but even in US English 'then' would still generally be considered incorrect in this use.

Chaoswind · Jan 2, 2020

Mr Zoat said:
Which… Means that Hitler shared more kryptonian technology with the world than our Kal-El. I… Don't think I want to think about that. I

This exact sentence appears in an earlier update and probably should be tweaked to avoid word for word repetition.

Chojin Patriarch · Jan 2, 2020

Mr Zoat said:
"You did this?"

Ah, she's located my brief fling with genocide, a reconstruction of the destruction of the Citadel Complex playing on the screen.

"A few friends and I, yes."

"You purged them."

'Purge' is such an ugly word. And inaccurate...

"I prefer precise descriptions. We didn't feed them laxatives after all. We exterminated them. And I'm slightly uncomfortable that it feels like you're going to imply there's no difference between what I did and what your forebears did."

"What do you think the difference is?"

"For one thing, the Citadelians were actually evil, by way of their Emperor being linked into the mind of every living Citadelian..."

"There was a story a Jew who escaped N-. National Socialist-" She nods appreciatively. "-Germany. He'd fought in the First World War and been awarded an Iron Cross. But the restrictions on Jews were getting worse and he didn't particularly want to get murdered. So he withdrew his money from his bank, packed his suitcase and headed for the border. The border guard wanted to examine the contents, because it was illegal to take more than a certain amount of money out. So he handed it over, the guard popped it open, took one look at the Iron Cross on top, heiled him, closed the suitcase without examining it and handed it back."

"If a Jew had an Iron Cross then he stole it."

Try to let go of your ingrained prejudice for a minute, would you?

"Eighteen thousand Jews won an Iron Cross during World War One." I point to the monitor. "Feel free to look it up. I can't promise that there are scans of the individual certificates attached, but unlike the National Socialist Party we haven't purged our archives. Heck, there were even a few Jews who won an Iron Cross during the Second World War, fighting for Finland."

She's already accessing the archives of the German military, which has made a point of ensuring that the information is easy to locate. Truth isn't a perfect tool for keeping out National Socialist mind control efforts, but I suppose that you do what you can.

Cop that, girl. And good on modern Germany.

"Jews in the World War One military served disproportionately in front line roles-."

"There were no front line Jewish officers."

"True, but that was because it was illegal for them to be given front line commands, not because they were ducking them. Honestly, it's like-."

That whole prejudice thing back in the early part of the century made for some bullshit, eh?

"Recognized, Superboy B zero four, Miss Martian, B zero five."

The zeta tube lights dim, and Kon and M'gann stroll in. M'gann's in Megan mode, and neither of them notice Angelika at first. Kon glances my way-

Oh dear... The first real interaction with natives of this universe...

"Hey."

-and then returns his full attention to M'gann.

"Hi there. This is-"

M'gann notices Angelika first, blinks in surprise and then smiles.

Let's hope her genki girl attitude can break that icy Nazi shell a bit...

"Hi! Um, who-?"

"Overgirl." Since she didn't say I could call her Angelika. "She's a Supergirl-equivalent from a parallel universe. I'm minding her until the League can work out how to send her home."

"Good-." Her eyes fix themselves on Kon's chest. No, Kon's red 'S' on black background emblem. "-afternoon."

Not quite the same emblem as Overman's, I believe.

Kon gives her a small smile. "Another kryptonian, huh?"

"That is not quite right. It would be more accurate to say that I am a combination of human and kryptonian."

Leaving out just how she got that way in the first place...

Kon's smile broadens slightly. "So you're more of a me-equivalent." He walks forward and holds out his right hand. "I'm Superboy."

Angelika steps around the hologram and shakes his hand. "Overgirl. Though it sounds strange in English."

Eh, as I mentioned yesterday, Übermädchen has somewhat less pleasant connotations... Better a little awkward than a lot awkward.

"Oh!" M'gann grins. "Are you from a parallel universe where everyone's genders are reversed? Are you dating your Mister Martian?"

"Ah-? No. No, I am not dating a martian."

And yes, there are Earths like that. Earth-11, for instance. (11+52=63)

Though she doesn't appear to feel the same level of visceral disgust at the idea that she did at the idea of dating a 'subhuman'.

"My Earth is not so similar to this one."

And OL is thinking "Please don't mention Nazis... Please don't mention Nazis..."

Kon nods. "Oh? What's different?"

"We have had access to kryptonian technology for sixty years. Earth technology is far more advanced as a result." She glances back at the screen. "Though this holographic interface is not too different from what I used at home."

Heh. No wonder she took to it so easily.

"So… Is that it? Did a Kryptonian ship crash-land on Earth or something?"

"No, our.. Superman came to Earth at an earlier point in our history than yours. The people who found him analysed his pod, accessed its data stores and took information from there."

Interesting to see her discretion at her origins. I'm guessing part of the research she did was attitudes towards National Socialism here... And concealing her disgust at those claiming to be such, nuff' said.

Which… Means that Hitler shared more kryptonian technology with the world than our Kal-El. I… Don't think I want to think about that. Interesting that she's not mentioning the impact of the divergence regarding the Second World War. If she's trying to get someone else's perspective… Fine, that can only help my case. Though I hope she manages to be more subtle than just asking 'so how do you feel about Jews, Superboy?' or something.

Still something to poke Kal-El with. Carefully.

Kon nods sympathetically. "Yeah, Superman's not keen on doing that. I don't really get it. I mean, humans already have nuclear missiles and-" His eyes flick my way. "-death rays and stuff, so what difference does it make if they get kryptonian crystal-based construction technology as well? If anything, tougher buildings should make people safer."

Har-Zod isn't in favour of sharing with humans. And Kal-El is the closest thing to legitimate kryptonian authority here. I've… Got a contingency plan for if the League needs to end its relationship with the UN for some reason. The Kryptonian database has all sorts of designs which could be easily marketed without threatening anyone's secret identity, enabling the League to be financially independent and entirely open about where the money was coming from.

And we see one reason why Kal-El is against it: Luthor and other villains getting their hands on it...

"Unfortunately, even kryptonian technology is not impervious to weapons which terrorists can bring to bear."

I might wonder whether or not the Nazis-. The other Nazis would have killed her parents in order to get a test subject. But if there is an ongoing insurgency, they'd hardly need to. Particularly if they didn't have a special reason to think that she would be a success, and particularly given that a German couple who themselves would have grown up in an intensely Nazi-friendly environment would probably have been happy to allow their daughter to become superhuman.

Unpleasant either way, given the intentions of the project that made her.

"Sure, but it's better at it then human stuff."

I raise my eyebrows. "What's your armour made out of again?"

"Okay, yeah, but we still can't make enough orichalcum for construction projects."

"Not yet."

Sad but true.

"So, what can you do?"

"Everything that Overman can, but to a lesser degree."

Kon frowns. "You can fly?"

OL really has to work on that at some point...

"Yes." Overgirl rises into the air. "You cannot fly?"

"No. Didn't have heat vision, either."

"But you do now?"

"Kinda." His eyes blaze with while light and M'gann backs away slightly. "But not from-."

I think Overgirl might have issues with it being a gift from a Greek god...

"Recognized, Aqualad, B zero two."

Ohhhh….

Fiddle.

Yeeeeeup. Black, Atlantean and depending on your canonicity towards later seasons, bisexual. Still, like Ardy said, at least it wasn't Rocket. That'd be like tossing a canister of FOOF against a wall.

Well, things are about to get interesting. Let's see how Overgirl handles some of the less 'acceptable' Team members...

Mr Zoat · Jan 2, 2020

moralrelativity said:
then -> than
Yes, I know Kon's a US citizen, but even in US English 'then' would still generally be considered incorrect in this use.

Thank you, corrected.

Chaoswind said:
This exact sentence appears in an earlier update and probably should be tweaked to avoid word for word repetition.

Which sentence and where?

Idkusername · Jan 2, 2020

Hey, Mr Zoat, are you not gonna bring up that clone of Big A that fell in love with a black Brazilian beauty and has a satisfying home life with his 'mixed race' children?

Massgamer · Jan 2, 2020

I mean, doesn't Earth-10 have their own version of Aquaman on their Nazi Superhuman team? Unless they purged all non-white/non-pure bloods among his people it shouldn't be a problem.

Mr Zoat I assume pic of Earth-10 team is canon to story yeah? With their version of Aquaman?

Mr Zoat · Jan 2, 2020

Idkusername said:
Hey, Mr Zoat, are you not gonna bring up that clone of Big A that fell in love with a black Brazilian beauty and has a satisfying home life with his 'mixed race' children?

The SI isn't going to bring that up unless he thinks it will help.

Massgamer said:
I mean, doesn't Earth-10 have their own version of Aquaman on their Nazi Superhuman team? Unless they purged all non-white/non-pure bloods among his people it shouldn't be a problem.

Mr Zoat I assume pic of Earth-10 team is canon to story yeah? With their version of Aquaman?

Underseaman exists, but he's not black.

Idkusername · Jan 2, 2020

Mr Zoat said:
Underseaman exists, but he's not black.

wow, DC really has creative writers, huh? Just, what astonishing originality!

RichardWhereat · Jan 2, 2020

Mr Zoat said:
Underseaman exists, but he's not black.

No, clearly he's more of a creamy white.

Grek · Jan 2, 2020

Yes, because Aquaman is such a good name for a water-themed hero.

useless101 · Jan 2, 2020

Mr Zoat said:
Which sentence and where?

Just ran through using the search function. You haven't used any sentence in the story with the words 'kryptonian technology' in it anywhere between this chapter and when the call about Overgirl first came up.

I think Chaoswind got confused about your non-chapter post on page 476, which mentioned the topic with similar wording.

Grimnar · Jan 2, 2020

RichardWhereat said:
No, clearly he's more of a creamy white.

What you did there. I see it.

Is it just me, or does the pacing of this episode feel... kind of off? Usually at this point stuff would be heading down crapville. Maybe it's just because of the focus?

Darko · Jan 2, 2020

The episode could be longer Grimnar
I honestly thought that when he went to - 14 it would be a two parter, seeing as how late the action happened.

While the SI may not mention Schreiber, I think that Rocker would, Kaldur may be more patient when dealing with unpleasant people but Raquel most likely isn't and a nice way to destroy the little nazis worldview just so happens to live a happy life in South America.
Maybe the SI can show her a recording of him killing nazi Germany aka Captain Nazi.

DAT_NOOB · Jan 2, 2020

Chojin Patriarch said:
"For one thing, the Citadelians were actually evil, by way of their Emperor being linked into the mind of every living Citadelian..."

*Implying that Nazi's are rational enough to not believe that Jews has a hive mind*

Chaoswind · Jan 2, 2020

useless101 said:
Just ran through using the search function. You haven't used any sentence in the story with the words 'kryptonian technology' in it anywhere between this chapter and when the call about Overgirl first came up.

I think Chaoswind got confused about your non-chapter post on page 476, which mentioned the topic with similar wording.

Huh... In my defense it is pretty late, probably should go to sleep, thanks for saving me the trouble of looking for something that didn't exist.

Darko · Jan 2, 2020

Speaking off topic, there was a recent comic in the whole Year of the Villain, that featured a Martian kryptonian hybrid that was his universes version of Supes.

Darko · Jan 2, 2020

What was the Luthor League in the comics exactly, I don't think it was elaborated?
Were they some kind of resistance movement?

Zoat will the SI meet Overman during this episode, or anytime in your story and will he go to earth 10?

Sharp Card · Jan 2, 2020

Mr Zoat said:
Flat out extermination of the sort Germania went in for is very unusual.

This kindof annoys me.

Either Paul is lying or the DC world is very different with very different selective pressures to our world. Genocides used to be a dime a dozen in ancient human history (hell, the Bible alone mentions dozens) and I doubt humans are the most bloodthirsty species out there.
The only slightly unusual things about the Nazi genocide were its timing (e.g. 20th century) and that the Jews had been peacefully living with the rest of the Germans for a while (normally you genocide as part of an invasion). But even that combination has been frequently repeated.

Overgirl feels a bit like a Nazi strawman actually... e.g. conflating the murder of "defectives" and Jews, the Jews weren't considered defective/inferior in the same sense that gypsies, blacks and dyslexics were, they were considered innately selfish and untrustworthy, not unintelligent or incapable. One mass murder was done to "improve the gene pool" the other because "it's us or them".

With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

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Umm, ackchyually...

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