With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[Chaoswind]

Seems unlikely to me. It is indeed possible since I have watched precisely 1 episode of MLP and don't know the specifics of this event but if a competent ruler had multiple enclaves of ethnically different people, who not only have no extradition treaty with you but also do not have trials or courts or potentially even a modern government then you should probably put serious warnings around their reservations.

The third paragraph of the linked article it possibly a better way to deal with the Diamond Dogs, but I might be misestimating their civilisation's legal status. The other option here is that Celestia runs a worse government than India.

This is certainly possible, however as we see in this fiction she has laws similar to those in modern western democracies and agencies to carry those laws out such as Child Protective Services, a Department of Aboriginal Affairs (most likely, otherwise who is going to recognise the Diamond Dog justice system?) and at least an Attorney General which presumes other judges and potentially a whole, thus far unseen, judicial branch of the Equestrian government.

This suggests at least that Celestia wants to do good, from a modern western perspective, so why does all this clone-murder not get reported? If you are going forward with the idea that Celestia's government is incompetent at the least then by building all these agencies and governmental branches you are somewhat trapping yourself here I think. Celestia is probably the head of state and government but she does have other people to manage the day to day running of law, are they all incompetent or is it just that diamond dogs have especially poor representation, such that not even the apple family knew they owned the land nearby?

Presumably she got told about the mass clone killing but just assumed that a child prodigy, with well known psychological issues with empathy would have checked for sapience and consciousness first? If that were the case though what is the check for consciousness? i'm sure Grayven's DC could use that test.

Did Mayor Mare not think the whole event was odd enough to look into? Are there police departments outside of Canterlot, do none of them have magical detectives? If Celestia is stupid fine, but this direction I think needs to find all ponies stupid pretty shortly. Which is why I refer to the bearers as children because I think all of the ponies have the emotional and intellectual abilites of children, some of them very smart children but children nonetheless.

Edit: Imagine a species that didn't reach mental maturity until after their bodies wore out from age, seems like a cool sci-fi premise. Still I think Celestia deserves a bit more credit than she is getting, or else the whole society needs overhauling.

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I think the idea is that not even they believed the diamond dogs had a claim to that land until they were made aware of a very old law in regards to the status of tribal species and their rights and its even implied most other species had integrated to equestrian a long time ago and were under the purview of their laws. So the issue is that the diamond dogs didn't integrate and the bureaucracy kinda forgot about it. That is understandable because even if they have a lot of departments their record keeping is extremely medieval.

Rarity is unlikely to face much punishment beyond giving the dogs an apology and payment for the gems she extracted. The thing with spike is a nothing burger for the most part, the extermination of magical clones is a much bigger issue in regards to morality, but I am unsure if pony legislation and laws are build to handle them, thus twilight isn't going to face legal troubles but more like moral ones. Grayven better speed down a notch otherwise he is going to break the maggufin he wants to use to kill the anti-life.

In short, 'you broke it hero'.

 

[Orabilis]

I think the idea is that not even they believed the diamond dogs had a claim to that land until they were made aware of a very old law in regards to the status of tribal species and their rights and its even implied most other species had integrated to equestria and their laws. So the issue is that the diamond dogs didn't and the bureaucracy kinda forgot about it. That is understandable because even if they have a lot of departments their record keeping is extremely medieval.

Rarity is unlikely to face much punishment beyond giving the dogs an apology and payment for the gems she extracted. The thing with spike is a nothing burger for the most part, the extermination of magical clones is a much bigger issue in regards to morality, but I am unsure if pony legislation and laws are build to handle them, thus twilight isn't going to face legal troubles but more like moral ones.

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Wait, wait, wait. Why do Flim and Flam need machinery then? They could just find a nice hardworking person and then mirror pool a few hundred more people with no rights and either dispose of them at the end of the day or sell them as slaves. Again Mayor Mare and all other townsfolk for as long as the mirror pool was known about now have to be dumb enough to not think of this idea, and if they are innately more social or moral than humans in general then most ponies would never do something like this but supposed "adult intelligence ponies" would legislate about this, or at least put big warning signs or fill in the pool.

I think the answer here is that the Elements of Harmony or Harmony itself is in cahoots with Boss Smiley the avatar of writers being unable to process magic in their settings.

 

[Doccer]

Twilight "Serial Killer" sparkle... I LIKE IT!!

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I like 'Twilight Killer' for a murder pony name better.

 

[Impartial Panic]

Seriously, just... threaten to blow up the city unless they blast you. This is needlessly cruel and complicated.

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His cutie mark is ham and the containment is failing on the anti-life fragment.
Diabolical and Desperation lead to interesting situations.

well there is only one force in equestrian that can stop Grayven now.

So you finally brought out the Elements.

No We brought out the Cutie mark crusaders!

You know we could avoid all this if you'd just use the elements.

 

[Chaoswind]

Wait, wait, wait. Why do Flim and Flam need machinery then? They could just find a nice hardworking person and then mirror pool a few hundred more people with no rights and either dispose of them at the end of the day or sell them as slaves. Again Mayor Mare and all other townsfolk for as long as the mirror pool was known about now have to be dumb enough to not think of this idea, and if they are innately more social or moral than humans in general then most ponies would never do something like this but supposed "adult intelligence ponies" would legislate about this, or at least put big warning signs or fill in the pool.

I think the answer here is that the Elements of Harmony or Harmony itself is in cahoots with Boss Smiley the avatar of writers being unable to process magic in their settings.

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You speak as if the ever free forest is a city park in the middle of town. Instead to being wild lands with many dangerous creatures and dangers.

 

[Orabilis]

You speak as if the ever free forest is a city park in the middle of town. Instead to being wild lands with many dangerous creatures and dangers.

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Fair enough, so there are no spells that make clones and no natural magic that mimics this effect anywhere else in the principality. I can also believe that nobody before Pinkie had ever used the mirror pool as well but its another thing to strain my suspension of disbelief. In fact I suspect that any of the bearers other than Pinkie and perhaps Dash would have used the mirror pool to improve their productivity.

Totally legal, also everyone would think it was cheating and would want some kind of legal ruling. If Applejack knew how to make like 30 copies of herself to increase the size of her farm thirtyfold do you think she would do it? Here's first party confirmation on Rarity at least from earlier in the thread.

 

[Doccer]

Someone forgot that Power Rings can't detect magic.

Side note, you're doing that bashfic thing again.

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No but can detect a pony with color and dimensions. Also finding another with her DNA would be more proof they're real.

 

[Doccer]

Someone forgot that Mother Boxes have a tiny scanning range.

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Hence why Mr Zoat said Grayven had to boom tube around instead of scan the planet.

 

[Mr Zoat]

No signs to indicate the boundary.

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Neither did the buffalo, yet the local ponies admitted that they used to run through where they built their orchard.

Attacked from ambush.

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Police are not obliged to let criminals duel for their freedom.

'Sentenced' without trial of any sort.

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The dogs are a tribal society and she was caught red-hoofed.

If your only law is might-makes-right then you forfeit any legal standing when faced with someone stronger.

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So you agree that Rarity doesn't have the right to what she stole?

 

[SebazuD]

So you agree that Rarity doesn't have the right to what she stole?

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You say she stole it after finding it with her own magic and having Spike help her dig it up.
Nowhere in canon it says she did.

Hell, when she was asked to help them find some with her magic she was happy to oblige.
Even more, we only ever see like 5 of them, that's not even representative of a potential goverment.
They could have been asshole teenagers for all we know.

 

[Doccer]

That's how he found Talia Al'Ghul in the first place, and then from that found Ra's.

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How about scanning for pink ponies in party-adjacent careers? I would have said DNA but I'm not sure if rings can scan for that.

Soft agree on the second part though.

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Also Bane's father.

 

[Doccer]

You'll note that she didn't make any effort to help the fully realised characters in the comic either.

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What comic?

 

[Chaoswind]

Fair enough, so there are no spells that make clones and no natural magic that mimics this effect anywhere else in the principality. I can also believe that nobody before Pinkie had ever used the mirror pool as well but its another thing to strain my suspension of disbelief. In fact I suspect that any of the bearers other than Pinkie and perhaps Dash would have used the mirror pool to improve their productivity.

Totally legal, also everyone would think it was cheating and would want some kind of legal ruling. If Applejack knew how to make like 30 copies of herself to increase the size of her farm thirtyfold do you think she would do it? Here's first party confirmation on Rarity at least from earlier in the thread.

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As far as the wiki seem to imply visiting the forest is taboo and many dangers exist in it, I see no reason to believe anyone aside its residents would visit it more than when it is absolutely necessary. Also since the harmony tree is in the forest the forest could very well be considered restricted to anyone outside those granted special dispensation by the "crown", that minimizes the pool of 'people' that could use the magic clone pool to less than a dozen at this point in the timeline, ergo its completely believable for pinkie to be the only person to have used the pool recently.

In regards to no one using it to their advantage, we would have to assume doing so without Celestia permission would be a breach of trust, the forest is under the administration of the crown... It would be like going to a national park to set an oil extraction operation to be rich... You can try, but don't expect the law to go easy on you after such a breach.

 

[Enochi]

Guys there is no point in arguing with Zoat about this. He is going to use whatever interpretation he feels like best fits his story whether it is remotely correct or not. He is perfectly okay with smashing the setting and ruining characters you should have seen that by now all over the paragon side. Yes we had hope that the renegade was better and more enjoyable but like all authors everything eventually returns to form. So we just have to enjoy what we can and what it is.

 

[AngelicKnight.]

Wait wait wait! It took a while to hit me but well... it strikes me there a pinkie pie who just found out no where in equestria is far enough away to avoid Twilight, who was picked up and protected by Grayven. Maybe earth would be far enough away? And grayben has already shown willingness to recruit ponies. And protect her.


Grayven might just have got himself an element bearer of his own.

 

[Vaermina]

Wait, wait, wait. Why do Flim and Flam need machinery then? They could just find a nice hardworking person and then mirror pool a few hundred more people with no rights and either dispose of them at the end of the day or sell them as slaves. Again Mayor Mare and all other townsfolk for as long as the mirror pool was known about now have to be dumb enough to not think of this idea, and if they are innately more social or moral than humans in general then most ponies would never do something like this but supposed "adult intelligence ponies" would legislate about this, or at least put big warning signs or fill in the pool.

I think the answer here is that the Elements of Harmony or Harmony itself is in cahoots with Boss Smiley the avatar of writers being unable to process magic in their settings.

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To reiterate something I pointed out about the actual episode a few hours ago.

The Mirror Clones weren't stable.

 

[Mr Zoat]

I have decided that this episode will end with a musical number.

 

[Chaoswind]

I have decided that this episode will end with a musical number.

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Why are you punishing me....

I guess if Grayven uses ring aid to improve his showmanship that could make it interesting.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Wait, wait, wait. Why do Flim and Flam need machinery then? They could just find a nice hardworking person and then mirror pool a few hundred more people with no rights and either dispose of them at the end of the day or sell them as slaves. Again Mayor Mare and all other townsfolk for as long as the mirror pool was known about now have to be dumb enough to not think of this idea, and if they are innately more social or moral than humans in general then most ponies would never do something like this but supposed "adult intelligence ponies" would legislate about this, or at least put big warning signs or fill in the pool.

I think the answer here is that the Elements of Harmony or Harmony itself is in cahoots with Boss Smiley the avatar of writers being unable to process magic in their settings.

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As far as I remember, Pinkie Pie learned about the Mirror Pool from her granny and no one else knew about it.

You say she stole it after finding it with her own magic and having Spike help her dig it up.

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If I walk into your house because you left the door unlocked your TV doesn't become mine because I had to carry it out.

Also, in America, if you were in there then you could legally shoot me dead.

Hell, when she was asked to help them find some with her magic she was happy to oblige.

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A prisoner doesn't get to choose which parts of the sentence they complete.

Even more, we only ever see like 5 of them, that's not even representative of a potential government.

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True, but that group are all the Diamond Dogs we ever see.

They could have been asshole teenagers for all we know.

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Possible. However, some of their henchhounds had steel armour. That's not a small expense in the time period of the setting.

What comic?

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In one episode the Bearers and Spike are sucked into a magical comic and given the parts of a superhero team. This creates the old holodeck issue: how intelligent are the NPCs I'm interacting with?

 

[Coda]

They were just magic construct, with no real internal life.

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constructs

The sooner I do this, the least harm will be done.

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less

Rule zero of absolute monarchies. Other forms of monarchy may have their own final arbiters; for example, in the UK the law is whatever Parliament (or more specifically the House of Commons) says it is.

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Parliament only has that power because the monarch said they do.

The post you were replying to also specifically did say 'actual' monarchies, as opposed to e.g. democratic monarchies.

 

[Mr Zoat]

constructs
less

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Thank you, corrected.

Parliament only has that power because the monarch said they do.

The post you were replying to also specifically did say 'actual' monarchies, as opposed to e.g. democratic monarchies.

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That's not exactly true in the British context. There was a civil war, which made the next monarch a lot more inclined to listen to parliament. And then Queen Victoria stopped working after Prince Albert's death, resulting in a lot of royal powers being assumed by parliament.

 

[SotF]

His cutie mark is ham and the containment is failing on the anti-life fragment.
Diabolical and Desperation lead to interesting situations.

well there is only one force in equestrian that can stop Grayven now.

So you finally brought out the Elements.

No We brought out the Cutie mark crusaders!

You know we could avoid all this if you'd just use the elements.

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Why do I see this leading to the Cutie Mark Crusaders getting godhood in the end and making things even more crazy to deal with since Grayven can ascend people. Think of the tree sap mess that would cause...

 

[Vaermina]

Gotta be honest, now that you said it I'm seeing a lot of that in the recent story arcs.

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It's the lazy writer trap.

See, at the end of the day it's just a lot easier for a writer to use their powers as the writer to tear a setting down so as to make their SI look awesome then it is to work within a setting to do the same.

 

[King of Frost]

Wait, wait, wait. Why do Flim and Flam need machinery then? They could just find a nice hardworking person and then mirror pool a few hundred more people with no rights and either dispose of them at the end of the day or sell them as slaves. Again Mayor Mare and all other townsfolk for as long as the mirror pool was known about now have to be dumb enough to not think of this idea, and if they are innately more social or moral than humans in general then most ponies would never do something like this but supposed "adult intelligence ponies" would legislate about this, or at least put big warning signs or fill in the pool.

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It's not clear how well-known the Mirror Pool is. There's no real path leading to it, it's hidden away in a cave underground, and the only reason Pinkie knew about it was because her grandmother (who is mentioned a few times in the early seasons but stops getting mentioned basically after this) told her a fairy tale kind of story about it when she was a child. She was going off of those.

It's also not clear if Pinkie actually told anyone other than Twilight where the pool was. And I can see Twilight keeping that a secret for various reasons.

 

[Valint]

Side note, you're doing that bashfic thing again.

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Kind of this.

I mean, Paul's thing has always been being an asshole. The thing is, he usually sticks around dealing with the effects of his assholery, so being an asshole to Superman for his costume or Artemis for using a pointy stick launcher is mitigated a bit by it being an ongoing storyline and character development.

A drive-by "Let me rub the characters' noses in how a children's cartoon has logic issues" just feels pretty gratuitous, especially as it seems so unnecessary to me. Making a real attempt to get across to them the seriousness of the matter, going over their heads to Luna, or just flat-out actually threatening them, all seem like the much more obvious choices.

Considering he actually knows the psychological levers to push, pushing the levers that traumatize them rather than pushing the ones that get him what he wants seems moustache-twirling villain dumb.

It's a shame, since I enjoyed the Grayven/Sunset interactions and had been looking forward to this arc.

This reads to me like the mindbogglingly dumb Harry Potter fics which are all about the author making up a bunch of laws, and then bashing the fuck out of the authority figures for breaking the laws that he just made up, all so that his favorite character can get "justice".

 

[Darko]

Remember when I described the renegades action in the previous chapter as a less horrifying version of what Rick's ship did to all those people?

This is what the ship would have done if it went to Equestria.

 

[Blackgutter]

Out of curiosity, did Zoat say he wouldn't include the Spectre and Lucifer in this fanfic? I think he mentioned it a while ago.

 

[Doccer]

As far as I remember, Pinkie Pie learned about the Mirror Pool from her granny and no one else knew about it.

If I walk into your house because you left the door unlocked your TV doesn't become mine because I had to carry it out.

Also, in America, if you were in there then you could legally shoot me dead.

A prisoner doesn't
In one episode the Bearers and Spike are sucked into a magical comic and given the parts of a superhero team. This creates the old holodeck issue: how intelligent are the NPCs I'm interacting with?

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Oh right I forgot about that. Thx

 

[TheEyes]

If I walk into your house because you left the door unlocked your TV doesn't become mine because I had to carry it out.

Also, in America, if you were in there then you could legally shoot me dead.
A prisoner doesn't get to choose which parts of the sentence they complete.
True, but that group are all the Diamond Dogs we ever see.
Possible. However, some of their henchhounds had steel armour. That's not a small expense in the time period of the setting.

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Look at all of the things that have to have happened in order for your interpretation of the Diamond Dogs situation to be correct:

• Sometime in the distant past, both the Equestrian and Diamond Dog governments would have to have been competent enough to sign a treaty demarcating territorial rights.
• In the intervening centuries, everyone in both societies would have to be incompetent enough both to forget the treaty existed (until the SI came around to be the Great White Emancipator and find this treaty) and to never maintain any sort of border signs.
• The Apple family, who have been farming Zap Apples near the Everfree for centuries and thus heavily invested in knowing all about who owns what territory, are also incompetent enough to not know about Diamond Dogs and their territory in the area.

When your extrapolation of events requires specific groups of people alternating between competent and incompetent at specific strategic points, none of which is indicated by the story you're extrapolating from, then it's fairly obvious you're introducing much more complexity than is required. Occam's Razor makes mincemeat of this whole storyline.

It makes much more sense to infer that the Diamond Dogs are itinerant miners, and that none of these territorial issues were ever considered until the Dogs and the Ponies came into contact a relatively short time ago. But of course that would mean that Grayven couldn't rub everyone's face in how much better he is at lawyering than a bunch of teenagers, so instead we have the tortured situation we have now.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Look at all of the things that have to have happened in order for your interpretation of the Diamond Dogs situation to be correct:

• Sometime in the distant past, both the Equestrian and Diamond Dog governments would have to have been competent enough to sign a treaty demarcating territorial rights.
• In the intervening centuries, everyone in both societies would have to be incompetent enough both to forget the treaty existed (until the SI came around to be the Great White Emancipator and find this treaty) and to never maintain any sort of border signs.
• The Apple family, who have been farming Zap Apples near the Everfree for centuries and thus heavily invested in knowing all about who owns what territory, are also incompetent enough to not know about Diamond Dogs and their territory in the area.

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Wrong.

In this story, the relevant law is an Equestrian law. No mention was made of the Dogs agreeing to it. No mention is made of any treaty. The best argument against such a law being canonical is that settlement of Appleoosa would have been illegal if it existed, but 700 years is easily enough time to forget a law. It only took 300 years for the British parliament to forget some rather important provisions in the 1689 Bill of Rights.



Ponyville was founded when Granny Smith was a filly. At most, the Apple family has been harvesting zap apples for four generations. We aren't provided with information on how long ponies live, but that's not centuries. More like seventy years.

The Dogs live underground and don't appear to build on the surface. How would the Apples have met them?

It makes much more sense to infer that the Diamond Dogs are itinerant miners, and that none of these territorial issues were ever considered until the Dogs and the Ponies came into contact a relatively short time ago/

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Certainly possible.

But of course that would mean that Grayven couldn't rub everyone's face in how much better he is at lawyering than a bunch of teenagers, so instead we have the tortured situation we have now.

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Well... Yes, that was why he went to see a lawyer and checked things.