With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[Mr Zoat]

I thought he was joking, is there actually a FAQ?

Click to shrink...

Yes. It's in the first post in the thread, near the top. Just under 'Fan Art' and 'Omake Index'.

 

[Sceptic]

I thought he was joking, is there actually a FAQ?

Click to shrink...

It's in a spoiler box on the first post of the thread. Just search for "FAQ".

 

[RichardWhereat]

From the FAQ


You have an FAQ?
The first rule of the FAQ is 'don't talk about the FAQ'.

The second appears to be 'don't read the FAQ'.

 

[Impatient_Quill]

Sorry, I found a story only thread and followed it until a ban notice came up. Did not spot a faq and no one talked about it...

 

[Coda]

I thought he was joking, is there actually a FAQ?

Click to shrink...

First post! </abbot and costello>

 

[Vaermina]

So... he's a character in a story, then.

Click to shrink...

No, he's a badly written character in a story.

There's a difference.

 

[Sceptic]

No, he's a badly written character in a story.

Click to shrink...

And yet somehow he's still a more sympathetic character than you are.

 

[Maxx Crowley]

And yet somehow he's still a more sympathetic character than you are.

Click to shrink...

There are more interesting Daedric princes to be certain.

No, he's a badly written character in a story.

There's a difference.

Click to shrink...

I'm rather confused though. At this point, it really appears that you don't enjoy a single element of the story. Yet here you are. Your criticism never seems all that constructive and at this point I really don't see what your deal is.

 

[Mquz]

Wait... so does that mean Renegade has always been Actually! Grayven? He didn't get cosmically retconned into it as a result of claiming to be him? He was Grayven even before he claimed to be so to the New Gods who came to Earth?
Basically if the situation is he wasn't born Grayven - which even he claims that he was simply born FROM a part of Grayven, being his clone/spiritual successor/son but he is now pretty much fully Grayven (getting some of his memories/thoughts/identity from somewhere other than himself, including faking it - which he did at one point), it is essentially the idea of mantling by a different name. Compulsions aren't necessarily a part of mantling - especially if it's a cosmic retcon/ personality merge (especially since a personality is essentially at some level a group of compulsions normally developed by a person themselves through responses to their experiences.)
Note: I haven't read the Dresden Files either and get my idea of mantling secondhand from the Elder Scrolls 3: Morrowind fanon/ forums, where the main idea is that the way the prophecy in that game works isn't through literal soul reincarnation, but through essentially making your soul look enough like Nerevar through your actions and seeming luck/chance to fool his ring (which kills everyone else), and thereby mantling Nerevar and fulfilling the prophecy.

 

[Sceptic]

Wait... so does that mean Renegade has always been Actually! Grayven? He didn't get cosmically retconned into it as a result of claiming to be him? He was Grayven even before he claimed to be so to the New Gods who came to Earth?

Click to shrink...

Not so much. He told a father box to fix his lack of soul while also telling it that he was Grayven. The end result of that was never going to be an unmitigated and complete win for the renegade-SI.

Also, mantling is for fireplaces

 

[Mquz]

Not so much. He told a father box to fix his lack of soul while also telling it that he was Grayven. The end result of that was never going to be an unmitigated and complete win for the renegade-SI.

Also, mantling is for fireplaces

Click to shrink...

The metaphor is that you put stuff on the mantle of a fireplace to transform it into a Holiday! fireplace / family photo! Fireplace/etc... It's like putting on an extra layer of clothing which doesn't change what is inside/ under but gives it some extra features that normally give it some extra meaning/ abilities.
In this fic, with your explanation, you are putting a soul inside/ on top of Renegade to give him some of the properties of that soul. If father box were to change his soul to look like that of another new god (maybe not now but earlier) he might get the domains of that new god.
Either way, I'd say this sort of soul-washing (like brain-washing) is close enough to mantling (though forced by external means) to use the term, since he does get the abilities/memories of Grayven in addition to part of his soul.
PS: not sure but I've always assumed that the term comes from mantling a person with heraldry, as in a ceremony where one assumes a noble position, maybe like the scarf-like draping thing some Christian priests wear (not sure there is an actual term for this). This could just be astounding idiocy/ misunderstanding on my part.
PPS: If my idea of mantling is just wrong, which it may be, please correct me.

 

[Mquz]

Hm... in terms of computer talk (though obviously probably wrong, speaking as a computer Science student with little engineering experience), mantling would be a robot writing code on the computer that has admin access to it that causes (when run/ doing action) the CPU/ part of the computer (world/father box) to write back into the source of the code (the robot writing it) code from another robot, giving the robot more functionality. The main CPU and the robot's are not necessarily directly connected.

 

[Stsword]

The metaphor is that you put stuff on the mantle of a fireplace to transform it into a Holiday! fireplace / family photo! Fireplace/etc... It's like putting on an extra layer of clothing which doesn't change what is inside/ under but gives it some extra features that normally give it some extra meaning/ abilities.
In this fic, with your explanation, you are putting a soul inside/ on top of Renegade to give him some of the properties of that soul. If father box were to change his soul to look like that of another new god (maybe not now but earlier) he might get the domains of that new god.
Either way, I'd say this sort of soul-washing (like brain-washing) is close enough to mantling (though forced by external means) to use the term, since he does get the abilities of Grayven in addition to part of his personality.
PS: not sure but I've always assumed that the term comes from mantling a person with heraldry, as in a ceremony where one assumes a noble position, maybe like the scarf-like draping thing some Christian priests wear (not sure there is an actual term for this). This could just be astounding idiocy/ misunderstanding on my part.

Click to shrink...

The term mantling comes from Harry Dresden, I presume that Butcher got the term from the definition "an important role or responsibility that passes from one person to another."

In Dresdenverse, knight of summer, lady of winter, queen of summer, Santa Claus, Lord of the Wild Hunt, etc, are mantles, roles that possess the office holder and move on when someone else gets the position.

Which is not the case in this story, Zoat has the domain (to use the DnD term) of New Gods come from the shape of their souls.

Gravy is conquest because that's the shape of his soul, if he dies and someone else becomes a new god of conquest that doesn't make them Gravy reborn.

That should be obvious from the fact that Gravy ran into the actual Grayven and they weren't actually the same person.

Grayven and Gravy are both new gods of conquest because the Fatherbox shaped Gravy a soul based on Grayven's, Zoat has indicated that New Gods don't normally share a domain though.

 

[Mquz]

The term mantling comes from Harry Dresden, I presume that Butcher got the term from the definition "an important role or responsibility that passes from one person to another."

In Dresdenverse, knight of summer, lady of winter, queen of summer, Santa Claus, Lord of the Wild Hunt, etc, are mantles, roles that possess the office holder and move on when someone else gets the position.

Which is not the case in this story, Zoat has the domain (to use the DnD term) of New Gods come from the shape of their souls.

Gravy is conquest because that's the shape of his soul, if he dies and someone else becomes a new god of conquest that doesn't make them Gravy reborn.

That should be obvious from the fact that Gravy ran into the actual Grayven and they weren't actually the same person.

Grayven and Gravy are both new gods of conquest because the Fatherbox shaped Gravy a soul based on Grayven's, Zoat has indicated that New Gods don't normally share though.

Click to shrink...

He hasn't run into Graven 16. Graven 16 is gone from Universe 16, and according to Renegade's conversation with Jade at one point was reborn as himself. This isn't the case with OL's universe apparently. At the very least the universe seems to have reshaped itself so that it makes sense for Grayven to have been Grayven 16 all along.

 

[Vaermina]

And yet somehow he's still a more sympathetic character than you are.

Click to shrink...

This site has a thread for that sort of thing, and it's not here.

I'm rather confused though. At this point, it really appears that you don't enjoy a single element of the story. Yet here you are. Your criticism never seems all that constructive and at this point I really don't see what your deal is.

Click to shrink...

Of Grayven's story, no, I don't really enjoy anything about it.

As to criticism, since this isn't SV you're right, we can actually give it here.

So to wit, Grayven's a black hole sue with everything that entails.

To paraphrase and expand a bit.

Grayven as a character is blatant author favoritism in effect, where Zoat uses his effective position as the God of the story to carry the character through by his hands. In the rare cases when Grayven fails at something it's at most a temporary setback that either proves advantageous in the long run or else just serves to hammer in the point of how special Grayven is. On top of which, Grayven's failures almost always involve just as much Deus ex Machina as his successes, setting up events in which he just logically shouldn't fail.

Because of this, Grayven is boring to read about. And while yes, this might be a setting where Hero's are naturally predisposed to winning and some villains might never seem to be taken care of. Grayven's story deals with this not via Watsonian reasoning but via Doyalist logic that basically amounts to everyone else in the setting being some form of an idiot.

And while yes, watsonian reasoning requires a lot more work, the payout you get from answering questions like "how come the police don't just arrange an accident for the Joker" is massively different and more satisfying to the reader if you go with something like "someone tried that the Joker improbably survived and his gang did horrible things to the loved ones of the police officers involved in retribution" then if you go "it just never occurred to them so it's a great thing Officer Sue was here to think of just killing him for us".

Now could Zoat fix these problems with Grayven's story without a re-write, yes. But doing so at this point in the story would basically require having Grayven lose in a clear and definitive way and then spending a "book" dealing with the aftermath of that loss where Grayven has to claw his way tooth and nail back from the loss.

 

[Sockmonkey]

Well. A Martian with a power ring. That's... hilariously overpowered.

Click to shrink...

You want overpowered? She could also learn magic from Karmang on top of the ring and martian abilities. Then she has All The Things.

 

[Buggy123]

This site has a thread for that sort of thing, and it's not here.



Of Grayven's story, no, I don't really enjoy anything about it.

As to criticism, since this isn't SV you're right, we can actually give it here.

So to wit, Grayven's a black hole sue with everything that entails.

To paraphrase and expand a bit.

Grayven as a character is blatant author favoritism in effect, where Zoat uses his effective position as the God of the story to carry the character through by his hands. In the rare cases when Grayven fails at something it's at most a temporary setback that either proves advantageous in the long run or else just serves to hammer in the point of how special Grayven is. On top of which, Grayven's failures almost always involve just as much Deus ex Machina as his successes, setting up events in which he just logically shouldn't fail.

Because of this, Grayven is boring to read about. And while yes, this might be a setting where Hero's are naturally predisposed to winning and some villains might never seem to be taken care of. Grayven's story deals with this not via Watsonian reasoning but via Doyalist logic that basically amounts to everyone else in the setting being some form of an idiot.

And while yes, watsonian reasoning requires a lot more work, the payout you get from answering questions like "how come the police don't just arrange an accident for the Joker" is massively different and more satisfying to the reader if you go with something like "someone tried that the Joker improbably survived and his gang did horrible things to the loved ones of the police officers involved in retribution" then if you go "it just never occurred to them so it's a great thing Officer Sue was here to think of just killing him for us".

Now could Zoat fix these problems with Grayven's story without a re-write, yes. But doing so at this point in the story would basically require having Grayven lose in a clear and definitive way and then spending a "book" dealing with the aftermath of that loss where Grayven has to claw his way tooth and nail back from the loss.

Click to shrink...

See, you're right that more than a few times, Grayven's decisions make him seem like the only smart person in a world of idiots. And you're right that normally, that would be a pretty clear sign of a universe that resolves around a Sue. But there's just one problem. DC is a world of idiots.

Sorry, let me rephrase that. The DC universe is stupid.

Hmm, no, let me try again: The DC universe is mind-bogglingly, pants-on-backwards stupid.

Imagine that you had a army of hundreds, no, thousands of writers. Imagine that you gave them all a century, and told them to write most nonsensical, inconsistent, unrealistic, and just plain stupid stories that they possibly could write and still sell. And imagine that you also locked them all in soundproof boxes so that they couldn't cooperate with each other, and then at the end of the century you told them to take everything they had written, and jam it all into a single universe like a compost heap after a buffet.

That's the DC universe.


I mean, credit where credit's due, it's not terrible. They've made plenty of well-drawn, entertaining, emotionally engaging comic books. But they don't make sense. It's a horrid amalgamation of a century of rule-of-cool, unplugged fridges full of spoiled logic, and one-uppmanship written by countless different writers with no coordination, all under the pressure of a multi-billion dollar company to SELL SELL SELL SELL SELL!

Zoat is a good writer. I'm sure if he wished to write about something without potential copyright issues, he could get something published. But he is mortal. He's just a man. He can't fix the DC universe. DC has a thousand writers and they can't fix it. I think I have read one story 'set' in the DC universe that made a decent amount of sense, and the author threw out literally everything, started from scratch with 1930's America, and threw in one very carefully thought out alien with powers and a moral compass very similar to Superman.


Starting with a actual DC setting, with dozens of DC characters? There's no hope. You can try, but there's no hope.

I can't even begin to list the issues... It's not "why don't they kill the Joker", it's:
"Why has no one used any of this damned shizotech? Do you see literally anything like that in real life, where if a revolutionary technology is even publicly hinted at and is immediately jumped on by dozens of corporations, philanthropists, billionaires, entrepreneurs, and speculative newspapers? For fucks sake, we tested the EM DRIVE, MULTIPLE TIMES, a device that should be thoroughly impossible according to modern physics."
"Wait, hold on, shizotech is bad enough, but you're telling me that magic exists?! A member of one of the most well known organizations in the world uses supernatural abilites, and there are thousands of witnesses and no clear mundane explanation?! Fucks sake, this could be huge, someone send him a invitation to the Randi Prize already!"
"W- the other member of this organization is a alien?! WHAT THE FUCK, WHY DID WE SPENT ALL THAT MONEY ON SETI IF THEY'RE ON MARS!? WE'VE SENT PROBES THERE, HOW DID WE NOT REALIZE THIS?!"
"HE TELEPORTED HERE?!?! DO YOU HAVE ANY FUCKING IDEA HOW EXPENSIVE THESE ROCKETS ARE, FUCKS SAKE WE LOST DOZENS OF PEOPLE TO THESE GIANT CANISTERS OF BOOM AND WE'VE HAD TELEPORTERS THIS ENTIRE TIME? HOW THE FU- *collapses*"


At which point, if you wheeled out that guy and brought in a physicist, they'd make it for about 3 seconds until you got to the "v" in "time travel". And then when they woke up, they'd make some very hasty calls to let the scientific community know that they need to redo everything.

And I assure you, just about every other profession would have some very choice words. Medical professionals would dedicate their lives to figuring out how that wizard just regrew someone's arm with magic.

Half the people with superpowers would be met by a business owner within the day because "Regulations say we need someone on-site 8 hours a day in case of a emergency, and you don't need a $3,000 single-use suit to rescue people from a chlorine spill.", or "You can see through walls? We'll pay you $500,000 a year to help find corrosion on the inside of our pipes.".

And the people in the media have more than a few ideas about how the other half could make money. You can make a show about anything nowadays, the weirder the better.

Historians would love to speak to any of the people who've been alive since the bronze age, even if some of them are kinda dicks. Sociologists wouldn't hesitate to travel to any of the dozens of miscellaneous societies have have been hidden away in some pocket dimension or another.

Oh and don't even get me started about supervillains. Yeah yeah, they did something bad, sure. Plenty of people do that in real life. But uh, the army has lots of strings, and that guy did build a giant mech with military grade armor in his garage...


You can't make sense of this. The superhero genre in general doesn't make sense, and DC is a especially egregious example of it. Some stories manage, like Worm, but Worm manages because

Spoiler: POSSIBLE SPOILER

the entity handing out all these powers wants to enforce a typical superhero world and kills anyone who starts making waves

. I think, anyway. I haven't read Worm.

So aside from copouts like "there's a super powerful crazy guy who's been trying to make the world like this", there's really no way to do it (which kinda diminishes the copout-ness).

And, turns out, that's exactly what Boss Smiley is doing in Zoat's universe. He just can't quite keep up with the SI, or get rid of them, so they're making waves like a whole lot of other people tried to, and it's working because they literally got dropped in from another fucking universe like a cog thrown by Murphy himself.


And all of that, all of that is just the foundation, on top of which you have the Renegade story, which is literally just the interesting bits of a universe built on top of another entire story, which is longer than the entire goddamn Harry Potter series.

So, yeah, no goddamn wonder he seems a lot like a Sue. Turns out that no matter how good at flying you are, you'll still fall into the ocean and get wet if you start from the bottom of the Marianas Trench. At least no matter what happens, it's entertaining.

 

[Cosmic_]

Hey new to the forums. Just made this account for this FF.

I'm caught up with the SI and on Episode 57 of Renegade and I was impatiently wondering when does Grayven patch things up with Jade.

 

[Vaermina]

Sorry, let me rephrase that. The DC universe is stupid.

Click to shrink...

Stop right there.

Because we aren't talking about the DC Universe as a whole, we are talking about the tiny little isolated corner of the DC Universe that Young Justice takes place in. And that tiny little isolated corner, due to the limited canon information available about it, only plays by the same "stupid" as New 52 and the like if the fan-fiction author writing the story in the setting actively chooses to make it that way.

 

[Sceptic]

And, turns out, that's exactly what Boss Smiley is doing in Zoat's universe.

Click to shrink...

There hasn't been independent verification of that yet, so we only have Smiley's word for it. Which is worth less than the paper it's written on.

 

[Buggy123]

Stop right there.

Because we aren't talking about the DC Universe as a whole, we are talking about the tiny little isolated corner of the DC Universe that Young Justice takes place in. And that tiny little isolated corner, due to the limited canon information available about it, only plays by the same "stupid" as New 52 and the like if the fan-fiction author writing the story in the setting actively chooses to make it that way.

Click to shrink...

"Eh, this thing came from Chernobyl, but it's not a piece of the core. I'm sure it's not that radioactive."

You can't fix DC. You can't. To fix DC, you have to throw out basically everything. If Zoat's universe was even remotely recognizable as DC, if it had even just the most basic things that all DC stories have, it'd be too late.

Zoat can't "choose" to fix it. If he wanted to fix it, he would just have to write in a completely new setting unrelated to DC. And then instead of being impossible, it's just really damned hard unless he also wants to write in a different genre, because there are a whole lot of superhero stories and not a whole lot that hold up under scrutiny.


So yeah, he set out to write more sensible DC fiction and he's doing it as best as he can. And he's doing a good job, but don't tell a man to mop the ocean and then rat him out when it's still wet and dirty. And then don't look at the dirtiest spot, and say that it's all like that when in actuality he managed to wash the sand and filter the water with nothing but a mop.

The Renegade story is explicitly just the interesting and entertaining bits of a alternate story line based on another story of interesting bits, with the baked-in assumption that you can, should, and must check back in with the main story to even have a idea of whats going on.

Of course it seems like everything revolves around him, you're looking at pictures of whirlpools in the ocean and thinking "wow, the ocean is nothing but stuff draining into a bunch of holes! Where's all the water coming from?!".

 

[Stsword]

He hasn't run into Graven 16. Graven 16 is gone from Universe 16, and according to Renegade's conversation with Jade at one point was reborn as himself. This isn't the case with OL's universe apparently. At the very least the universe seems to have reshaped itself so that it makes sense for Grayven to have been Grayven 16 all along.

Click to shrink...

Except he did meet Grayven 16.

His voice… Is actually quite a lot like mine. But he doesn't speak like I do. I've cultivated a classical English near-Received Pronunciation accent, and I generally try to speak in a relaxed mode. Even my insults are intended to sound like insulting jokes rather than threats. This… Grayven 16 I suppose I should call him. Everything I've heard him say is a threat. His tone is level and growly. I'd guess that our actual range is about the same, he just isn't using the rest of it. It's a little like how Father talks, only without the hints of self-satisfaction.

 

[Mquz]

Hey new to the forums. Just made this account for this FF.

I'm caught up with the SI and on Episode 57 of Renegade and I was impatiently wondering when does Grayven patch things up with Jade.

Click to shrink...

Spoiler

Never. He gets a so far light long distance relationship with Blackfire however and soon enough OL starts dating Jade.

If you want to see the author write a relationship scene, read the NSFW side fic posted by Zoat on this website. It's fairly good and is nearly unique among NSFW fics in that the NSFW part is written fairly realistically with lots of awkward moments. It's entertaining not because it's NSFW, but because it specifically injects a lot of real world awkwardness into it's plot.

 

[Mquz]

"Eh, this thing came from Chernobyl, but it's not a piece of the core. I'm sure it's not that radioactive."

You can't fix DC. You can't. To fix DC, you have to throw out basically everything. If Zoat's universe was even remotely recognizable as DC, if it had even just the most basic things that all DC stories have, it'd be too late.

Zoat can't "choose" to fix it. If he wanted to fix it, he would just have to write in a completely new setting unrelated to DC. And then instead of being impossible, it's just really damned hard unless he also wants to write in a different genre, because there are a whole lot of superhero stories and not a whole lot that hold up under scrutiny.


So yeah, he set out to write more sensible DC fiction and he's doing it as best as he can. And he's doing a good job, but don't tell a man to mop the ocean and then rat him out when it's still wet and dirty. And then don't look at the dirtiest spot, and say that it's all like that when in actuality he managed to wash the sand and filter the water with nothing but a mop.

The Renegade story is explicitly just the interesting and entertaining bits of a alternate story line based on another story of interesting bits, with the baked-in assumption that you can, should, and must check back in with the main story to even have a idea of whats going on.

Of course it seems like everything revolves around him, you're looking at pictures of whirlpools in the ocean and thinking "wow, the ocean is nothing but stuff draining into a bunch of holes! Where's all the water coming from?!".

Click to shrink...

I think that this fic does a good job of providing watsonian explanations to issues it points out. There are a lot more holes, but the story skips over them completely, so they don't matter to readers as much.

As someone impartial who likes both stories - the Paragon story does the most in addressing these holes. In exploring the root causes of issues, it tries to provide Watsonian explanations for why stuff happens. Renegade does not repeat paragon stuff so he does not always do so. He doesn't introduce new technology (except for making the archers New Gods) because he doesn't seem to have the patience to deal with other people who are not subordinates. He tries to make broad social changes that he controls as opposed to narrow changes that cause people to fix society themselves. He is less of an idealist, and more affected by the role he has to play as a DC character than OL is (price of having Grayven's soul shape). He is also fairly forceful, but that's because he just isn't as patient as OL - he often tries to forcefully fix the consequences instead of going after the root of a problem. In this case being pragmatic turns out to not be the best idea.

He's also failed a lot more than OL. After he stopped the light, the editorial balance had to go into effect and his life was ruined by a. Losing Jade, and b. Being brainwashed by the Anti-Life formula to act more like a villain. Neither of these losses have proven very beneficial.

I don't think there has ever been many hey these people are idiots moments - though there have been moments where before Grayven gets involved people just don't care about solving a hard issue when they can. His biggest moment where he goes hey these people are idiots is when he joins the original light and points out Savage is useless. However, this is explained in both Paragon and Renegade as them being super villains - people who are slightly insane and incapable of always constructively interacting with society or simply using their goals to get others to ally with them. They aren't idiots - they're psychopaths and crazy people. The English government debacle - this is canonical, but it is also a magical situation where the highest authorities are murderous, corrupt, and capable of necromancy/brainwashing people. The Shade not getting a cure from Circe or a magical genius - he's been in hiding and mind controlled by an actual villain. So Grayven uses meta knowledge and doesn't care why people act the way they are, since he a. deals with supervillains, and b. has aspects of one himself. There aren't many idiot moments where the reason isn't at least hinted at if you remember previous chapters.

As for no higher usage of science / magic, you're forgetting that a - magic is studied already, there are books on magic, but witch hunting was also a thing so most people forgot about it. As for lack of schizotech - a lot of it has been mentioned as being owned by companies like Vandal Savage's who trademark it and specifically never use it, and the need to be a schozoscientist to make similar machines. It's not a matter of understanding the concept and applying it in a different way as most science is, but usually not being able to understand how something works, and only being able to reverse engineer it. We don't even know if exotic materials are required for use (and they might be, since OL can skip the need for those). Even on OL's side, we don't see random people building stuff with Captain Cold's freeze technology - when they could have at least built a cheaper quantum supercomputer like we would in real life.

 

[reddraggone9]

At times like this, Lantern-

The light strobes outwards, playing over the unresisting Prelate.

-Grayven, that I am reminded of your Apokoliptian origins.

Click to shrink...

Without the interruption:
At times like this, Lantern Grayven, that I am reminded of your Apokoliptian origins.

That doesn't read quite right. Maybe drop the "that"?
At times like this, Lantern Grayven, I am reminded of your Apokoliptian origins.

Or change the beginning?
It's times like this, Lantern Grayven, that I am reminded of your Apokoliptian origins.

 

[Nekokaburi]

Yeah, I think that both ParaMegan and ReneMegan would be outright horrified and disgusted by a lot of what canonMegan did, especially what she did to Conner.

Click to shrink...

I'm not too familiar with Canon YJ to be honest. I read there was some mind fuckery, editing Connor's memories, but not the specifics. What all (else) happened that would be so horrifying?

 

[Prince Charon]

I'm not too familiar with Canon YJ to be honest. I read there was some mind fuckery, editing Connor's memories, but not the specifics. What all (else) happened that would be so horrifying?

Click to shrink...

The problem isn't just that she edited Conner's memories (though that would be bad enough), but that she knew that Conner had a serious, justified hang-up about having him mind messed with, and did it anyway, for her convenience. There's more to it than that, but I prefer not to think about it, and I'm not sure at the moment where to look it up to give you more details. Hopefully, someone else reading this will.

If you've seen Buffy the Vampire Slayer, it's similar to something Willow did to Tara that lead to them breaking up in Season Six.

 

[Mr Zoat]

10th January
17:41 GMT

T'Pexor holds his amulet up to apparently empty space, and the ancient citadel of Z'onn Z'orr shimmers into being as the wards stop affecting us. He keeps it in his hand as we float over a… Yes, I felt the edge of the warded area. Sinestro?

The atmospheric conditions here match what the Guardians recorded as being normal for pre-conflict Mars. Pressure and composition both.

Man does good work.

Though it does beg the question why he doesn't do this for the entire surface.

Maybe his acolytes were supposed to. Even ancient wizards have their limits.

T'Pexor stops, and turns his expressionless face-. Alright, it looks expressionless to me, to other martians it might be full of information. "This place is sacred to all Martians. Even the detestable Reds call it holy. I expect you to show respect both to it and to its master."

I nod and smile. "But of course."

So I don't comment on how Karmang apparently built his fastness on top of the tallest mountain on the planet, or that it's a miracle that no one has discovered it yet by accident. Presumably miracles come with the 'holy' part.

"Has it looked like this from the beginning..?"

"Some parts are newer. But the main tower is essentially unchanged. That's where he remakes us."

I nod. "And exactly how angry with me are you about-?"

"It doesn't matter." He turns away and heads towards the main tower. I follow at a slightly slower pace, taking in the whole place. "The Reds will never give away enough to satisfy us. If anything, I should thank you for casting them into disarray."

Enough disarray that J'emm somehow managed to get a face to face meeting arranged for today. The Marshal's been suspended and former City Commander R'oh K'arr has taken over Manhunter coordination efforts. Since he's from Mel'dilo'rn too I'm working on the assumption that J'emm is making sure that no one on his end is doing anything stupid by putting people he knows in charge of things. Cronyism at its finest.

"How's B'enn taking it?"

"He was angry about not being included in the meeting T'ronn engineered. Glad that Manhunters died during the attack. He thinks that more Whites will come to agree with him when they hear of it."

Ugh… Yes, possibly. But J'emm doesn't strike me as an idiot. The sensible thing for him to do is offer minor concessions immediately, either to buy the Manhunters time to reorganise or to give him time to clean house. Weirdly, Karmang might be the sorcerer he can trust most at this point. There's no way that he was the one who warded the Manhunter attack force.

"Is he going to join us out here, or do we need to find him?"

T'Pexor rises, heading for the top of the tower with the red ball suspended above it. I follow, and once I have a line of sight to the tower's roof I see Karmang waving his arms at the space beneath it. I'll record the shapes he's making for Circe and Sunset, but I don't feel all that much power so it's probably not an immediate concern. Karmang doesn't look around as T'Pexor lands, and continues to ignore us until he reaches what appears to be the conclusion of his ritual.

"Grayven. You have outdone yourself." His head turns to face us, while his.. eight hands hold their position for a moment before six of them merge with his body.

"Not unhappy with the increased prospect of a peaceful resolution?"

"No, no. I want a peaceful resolution. I approached them. They didn't approach me, or any other White."

"You're not exactly a White though, are you?"

"I've lived as a White for far longer than I have any other colour-." He hesitates as he turns to fully face me. "I think, at least. I still struggle to recall exactly what my life as a Burning Martian was like. It's not impossible that I lived longer like that. Unlikely, though."

I raise my left hand. "I meant no offence. Martian colour politics isn't something with an Apokoliptian equivalent. I don't grok it."

"No, I understand. But being… 'Colour free' is a new concept for so many martians, I think it best to remain like this. It will have a greater impact."

I nod. "True." I glance at T'Pexor. "Do your followers-?"

"I appreciate your effort at subtlety, but there's no need. I know that T'Pexor and I don't… Necessarily see eye to eye on everything. My followers are not my slaves."

I nod and turn my head to look at the Hyperclan member. "T'Pexor, we're going to be surrounded by Red Martians, and the main representative of the White Martians wants a peaceful settlement. Are you going to behave yourself?"

"Ye-."

"Quietly behave yourself, and not do anything that is going to require me to kill you."

"Yes. Karmang made his conditions for including me in this quite clear. Just do not expect me to engage them in conversation."

Alright then. I turn back to Karmang. "If you're ready, I'll open a boom tube-."

"Oh, no need." He raises his arms in a 'big box' pose, then swirls them around in a-. And we've moved, the Manhunters guarding the Martian government building taking a step back. Not raising their weapons, though. They're been firmly briefed. "I'm perfectly capable of teleporting us."

T'ronn and M'gann amble towards us, both of them staring at Karmang more than either me or T'Pexor.

"Ah, you must be M'gann." Karmang smiles as she approaches. "You're still Red, I see."

"Ah-. Yes. When I was on Earth, I pretended to be Green. I only turned Red after an alien telepath attacked me, and I assumed that removing the Guardian restrictions made us Red."

"Mm. Logical, if inaccurate. Hopefully after today colour restrictions will become a thing of the past."

T'ronn makes a gesture with his hand, the rings telling me that it's a sign of polite disagreement. "This is just a first meeting. It's more about proving that we can be in the same room without trying to kill each other than about anything else."

"It's still progress. That's the main thing."

"Oh, and… They're going to want proof that you're actually Karmang. Prince J'emm won't refuse to meet you if you don't, but… They're pretty unhappy about-."

"I quite understand. What's the best way-. Ah, I have it." He folds his arms across his chest for a moment, then his eyes light up. "A broadcast." All around us martians sway, a few clutching their heads. "Just a few of my most significant memories. It's been a while since I've been able to share things so freely."

M'gann shakes her head as his eyes dim. "That was… Incredible. I… Thank you."

"Oh, you've done far more for our people, M'gann M'orzz. This is all happening because you shared what happened on Earth with the rest of us. Our society can finally -whether by peace or by war- move beyond the stupid prejudices which have afflicted us for so long."

M'gann nods, smiling broadly.

"Now, young T'ronn. You are head of the delegation. Why don't you lead the way, so we can get the Council's grandstanding over with as soon as possible?"

"Yes." He turns towards the entryway into the council chambers, and the four of us follow him inside.

 

[Prince Charon]

I wonder how many of them are still going to refuse to believe that he's really Karmang.

 

[Chojin Patriarch]

Though it does beg the question why he doesn't do this for the entire surface.

Maybe his acolytes were supposed to. Even ancient wizards have their limits.

Click to shrink...

And no matter how powerful one wizard becomes, he can't change an entire planet. Not without considerable boosting...

Spoiler: Commentary spoilered for length

"Quietly behave yourself, and not do anything that going to require me to kill you."

Click to shrink...

"Quietly behave yourself, and not do anything that is going to require me to kill you."

Alright them. I turn back to Karmang. "If you're ready, I'll open a boom tube-."

Click to shrink...

Alright then. I turn back to Karmang. "If you're ready, I'll open a boom tube-."

I only turned Red after a alien telepath attacked me...

Click to shrink...

I only turned Red after an alien telepath attacked me...

"Jut a few of my most significant memories.

Click to shrink...

"Just a few of my most significant memories.

...move beyond the stupid prejudices which has afflicted us for so long."

Click to shrink...

...move beyond the stupid prejudices which have afflicted us for so long."

Well, that was all polite and friendly. Let's see how long it lasts in the face of thousands of years of raci-.. er, colorist.. indoctrination. I certainly don't see some Red martians being happy about any of this, regardless...