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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

The problem where scientific papers are reviewed and published, but then other researchers can't replicate the results.
In this setting this will, no doubt, produce colourful explosions. :)

She should be safe as long as she avoids Colt Fusion research. :)

(For extra speculation, what happens if Grayven uses his ring to Danner-ize an Earth Pony? Of course, he'd probably have to learn pony physiology to do that...)
 
The socratic method may work somewhat, but it is still an incredibly risky method to use, especially when it concerns such a big act as trying to become a god.

The Alicorn transformation is an enlightenment superpower.

You can't teach enlightenment like one can teach knitting or engine mechanics, there's no 'Do A, B, and C, and you have enlightenment."

It's an emotional transformation.

If someone wants to improve on that, get Celestia an army of psychotherapists.

Celestia telling Sunset "Stop being a brat and then you'd make progress on transforming into an alicorn" would not have gotten Sunset to stop being a brat.

Now, Sunset (supposedly) figuring out how to turn herself into an alicorn?

That's terrific.

Doesn't change the fact that what is really happening is that Sunset came up with a cheat because she isn't actually qualified to become an alicorn.
 
It's called the socratic method. Making someone figure shit out on their own (while being there to answer further questions) is a hell of a better method than just telling them information. You tell children information, you ask adults questions to make them think through the questions and come to their answers themselves. It makes people wiser.

Yoda has never been hard to understand, or all that convoluted. Nor has Albus Dumbledore.

Okay, first of all, that is not the Socratic Method. Dialogue between individual to facilitate critical thinking is what is called the Socratic method. What Celestia did was basically boot her out of her home for not understanding something she wasn't here to learn, without being told what it was she was supposed to take away from the lesson.

Developing critical thinking requires stuff more like what Grayven has done. Application and discussion, not the sink and swim approach. Comprehending and retaining knowledge work best through paying attention, concise explanations and reiteration, along with some degree of discussion.

Don't even fight me on this, I will break out my psychology textbook.
 
The Alicorn transformation is an enlightenment superpower.

You can't teach enlightenment like one can teach knitting or engine mechanics, there's no 'Do A, B, and C, and you have enlightenment."

It's an emotional transformation.

If someone wants to improve on that, get Celestia an army of psychotherapists.

Celestia telling Sunset "Stop being a brat and then you'd make progress on transforming into an alicorn" would not have gotten Sunset to stop being a brat.

Now, Sunset (supposedly) figuring out how to turn herself into an alicorn?

That's terrific.

Doesn't change the fact that what is really happening is that Sunset came up with a cheat because she isn't actually qualified to become an alicorn.

There's no 'cheat' because in end, she's a full fledged Alicorn. The enlightenment is one way of doing it, but no one said it's the only proper way to do so. Simply because it's not widespread or new doesn't make it any less valid.

The Fear Enlightenment the Terror Thing/Siskin hybrid went through was no less an enlightenment even if it wasn't with his own initiative, but rather with OL guiding him.

Did you mean 'Celestia'?

Thanks. Changed it.
 
I can hardly believe that Celestia didn't realise how Sunset would feel about there being another alicorn around, particularly after what Starswirl's mirror showed her.
This shows a rather startling lack of insight on Grayven's part. Celestia didn't realise because unlike people who have seen the Equestria Girls movie she didn't how it would turn out.

Side note: I was rather under the impression that Cadance moved to Canterlot before Sunset got a look at the mirror. Indeed Cadance's accension may well have been what prompted Sunset's obsession in the first place. If nothing else than by informing her that it was possible.

How limited. Just because not all magic is friendship does not mean that all friendships are not magical.

"Is there somepony in there you don't want me to see?"
"No, of course-."
"Yes!"
In fairness to Twilight, she has every reason to not want Grayven anywhere near anyone she doesn't want emotionally scarred and traumatised.
 
Thank you, corrected.
If I correct it before you post then it doesn't count.
This confused me, a bit, as bookcases weren't previously mentioned, nor the number of them. Would 'rises off a bookshelf and unrolls itself' read better?
Modified.
Glad to see Sunset doing practical interaction, though I do wonder if she can come up with a simple magical experiment which Atlantean theory predicts a different result from Equestrian... Maybe an observation of the world? Einstein's Relativity predicting the location of Mercury giving different results to Newtonian Mechanics is the RW science one that comes to mind... Using becoming an alicorn, succeed/fail, as your test seems... unwise.

Does Equestria have any theoretical thaumaturgists? Is that was what being taught in the lecture theatre? One that's also a rock star would be good. :)
Yes, but they're so far behind that there's not much point including them without complete retraining.
(For extra speculation, what happens if Grayven uses his ring to Danner-ize an Earth Pony? Of course, he'd probably have to learn pony physiology to do that...)
They'd become slight ill, but unless they were allergic they should make a full recovery.
Celestia telling Sunset "Stop being a brat and then you'd make progress on transforming into an alicorn" would not have gotten Sunset to stop being a brat.
It would be a start. It would be more than Celestia actually did.
Doesn't change the fact that what is really happening is that Sunset came up with a cheat because she isn't actually qualified to become an alicorn.
If she becomes an alicorn then she is tautologically qualified to become a alicorn. Are people who build their house rather than buying it unqualified homeowners?
 
Okay, first of all, that is not the Socratic Method. Dialogue between individual to facilitate critical thinking is what is called the Socratic method. What Celestia did was basically boot her out of her home for not understanding something she wasn't here to learn, without being told what it was she was supposed to take away from the lesson.

Developing critical thinking requires stuff more like what Grayven has done. Application and discussion, not the sink and swim approach. Comprehending and retaining knowledge work best through paying attention, concise explanations and reiteration, along with some degree of discussion.

Don't even fight me on this, I will break out my psychology textbook.
Not once did Inmention Celestia. We were talking about Yoda.
 
There's no 'cheat' because in end, she's a full fledged Alicorn. The enlightenment is one way of doing it, but no one said it's the only proper way to do so. Simply because it's not widespread or new doesn't make it any less valid.

The end on cheating on a test is still a test completed. The end on cheating in a race is still reaching the finish line. The end on cheating in an election is still an office assumed.

The entire freaking point of cheating is to achieve a result without earning the outcome.

And who gives a shit if the method is new or not as widespread?

Princess Luna turned into Nightmare Moon because she thought no one liked her (and that's despite her being able to achieve the alicorn apotheosis in the first place), in this very last episode Sunset showed she has more issues than National Geographic.

The issues that led to Shimmer's literal demonization in Equestria Girls.

Hate and fear turned Sombra into a living shadow.

Stygian's despair turned him into the Pony of Shadows.

In the MLP franchise, the answer to "What could possibly go wrong when someone who doesn't have the required emotional wherewithall has godlike emotion based magical powers?" has been answered multiple times.
 
Enjoying the story as always but would really enjoy another couple warhammer fantasy vignettes; maybe even fully fleshing that one out; thought it was super interesting!
 
The friendship and enlightenment thing seems to be more a safeguard of Celestia's against someone with an evil personality becoming an Alicorn than an actual requirement.

If anything, it seems like some ultimate expression of your special talent that is above and beyond what one would normally expect somehow triggers the transformation. Cadence just defeated and redeemed an evil bitch who had the power to steal the love of others and that was enough for her. She never learned any enlightenment bullshit or even received any tutelage from Celestia until after she transformed.

I think Celestia and Luna had their transformations as some expression of their ability to move the sun and the moon.

Celestia claims that Twilight's transformation is because she created a new form of magic when she completed Starswirl's spell. Not sure why Starswirl never changed when he supposedly created a bunch of the magic Equestria uses, and was one of the few unicorns that could handle sun and moon duties without burning out his magic, but whatever.

And then you have Flurry Heart, who was literally born as an Alicorn. I somehow doubt she was born enlightened.

So just do your special talent hard enough and you might turn into an Alicorn. If you didn't you weren't half as good as you thought you were at doing the thing that makes you special.
 
(For extra speculation, what happens if Grayven uses his ring to Danner-ize an Earth Pony? Of course, he'd probably have to learn pony physiology to do that...)
The Danner formula has a genetic (or at least epigenetic) component. Equestrian ponies aren't anywhere CLOSE to humans.

Grayven couldn't Awaken them either. They're not Earth life.

How limited. Just because not all magic is friendship does not mean that all friendships are not magical.
Equality is a transitive relationship. (a = b) <=> (b = a). The set of integers is not equal to the set of real numbers, even though every integer is a real number.

If she becomes an alicorn then she is tautologically qualified to become a alicorn. Are people who build their house rather than buying it unqualified homeowners?
Could be, actually. Building the house doesn't automatically mean you're its owner -- indeed, MOST people who build houses are building them for OTHER people. And if you build a house for yourself on land you don't own, then you're a squatter, not a homeowner.
 
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Wonder if renegade can manipulate the souls of other people who are not from Earth, or an Earth where the White Entity doesn't reside?
Not a full Awakening, but just some soul modifications.
 
Enjoying the story as always but would really enjoy another couple warhammer fantasy vignettes; maybe even fully fleshing that one out; thought it was super interesting!


I did not and considered them mostly a waste of time.

The friendship and enlightenment thing seems to be more a safeguard of Celestia's against someone with an evil personality becoming an Alicorn than an actual requirement.

If anything, it seems like some ultimate expression of your special talent that is above and beyond what one would normally expect somehow triggers the transformation. Cadence just defeated and redeemed an evil bitch who had the power to steal the love of others and that was enough for her. She never learned any enlightenment bullshit or even received any tutelage from Celestia until after she transformed.

I think Celestia and Luna had their transformations as some expression of their ability to move the sun and the moon.

Celestia claims that Twilight's transformation is because she created a new form of magic when she completed Starswirl's spell. Not sure why Starswirl never changed when he supposedly created a bunch of the magic Equestria uses, and was one of the few unicorns that could handle sun and moon duties without burning out his magic, but whatever.

And then you have Flurry Heart, who was literally born as an Alicorn. I somehow doubt she was born enlightened.

So just do your special talent hard enough and you might turn into an Alicorn. If you didn't you weren't half as good as you thought you were at doing the thing that makes you special.


Well said, emotional maturity has nothing to do with being an alicorn, same as enlightenment. They are at best, ways to TURN into one, but you can BE one without them and most certainly there are other ways to become one as well.
 
Wonder how Raul would be like around children?
We know he doesn't have problem killing ones that are sufficiently evil, but what about if he tried to adopt any, or had them with Komandr?
While renegade is a surprisingly good parent i don't think Raul and Kom should be allowed to raise children, not without Auntie Kori around at least.
One is powered by rage and the other has... weeellll.....issues.
 
Not once did Inmention Celestia. We were talking about Yoda.

It doesn't matter whether you explicitly mentioned Celestia or not, the conversation was about her. Putting Yoda and Dumbles at the end makes them seem like examples rather than the topic, which is what they appear to be on a second read.

Plus, I don't see a response to any of the pints I made.

Oh, and btw, Dumbly wasn't any kind of reasonable mentor for Harry, he is literally Gendo Ikari but friendlier.

The end on cheating on a test is still a test completed. The end on cheating in a race is still reaching the finish line. The end on cheating in an election is still an office assumed.

The entire freaking point of cheating is to achieve a result without earning the outcome.

And who gives a shit if the method is new or not as widespread?

Princess Luna turned into Nightmare Moon because she thought no one liked her (and that's despite her being able to achieve the alicorn apotheosis in the first place), in this very last episode Sunset showed she has more issues than National Geographic.

The issues that led to Shimmer's literal demonization in Equestria Girls.

Hate and fear turned Sombra into a living shadow.

Stygian's despair turned him into the Pony of Shadows.

In the MLP franchise, the answer to "What could possibly go wrong when someone who doesn't have the required emotional wherewithall has godlike emotion based magical powers?" has been answered multiple times.

Except alicornisation isn't a test now, is it? It's simply a state of being. You can get there any number of ways, and as long as they don't have drawbacks, they're all equally valid.

As for responsible use of power, I'd say sunset is quite qualified in the use of her power as an individual after Grayven's lessons on being a responsible metahuman, since being responsible involves being aware of the consequences of your actions. Now, keep in mind my only exposure to MLP:FiM is this story and a crack fic I read a while back, but Celestia of all people does not seem to be doing so hot in that regard. As a ruler, she might be all sorts of awesome, but on the interpersonal level, she's all kind's of whack.
 
From the sounds of it, one of the most effective things Grayven could do in this setting is to set-up the PHS - Pony Health Service... And make quite sure it has an effective (free for all ponies) mental health aspect... (Which, the NHS arguably doesn't have.)

As the various ponies who've been empowered, by their own work, or accident, frequently look to have mental health issues this would look to be a major public good, and, as an act of 'Friendship', should get support from Celestia, etc...

In fact, anywhere there are super-powered beings this could be argued as being a smart move...
 
As the various ponies who've been empowered, by their own work, or accident, frequently look to have mental health issues this would look to be a major public good, and, as an act of 'Friendship', should get support from Celestia, etc...
In Stygian's case it was purely a result of being physically attacked by his six closest friends. Until that happened, yes, he felt that he wasn't pulling his weight but he was working on fixing that it a rational and methodical way.
 
The Danner formula has a genetic (or at least epigenetic) component. Equestrian ponies aren't anywhere CLOSE to humans.
Take a pony through the portal, so you get a human, Danner-ize, bring back. Study what changes have occurred to the pony (assuming that they remain improved)? If I recall right, the formulae worked on (Earth) lab rats and mice, as well as dogs, so being generally mammalian might be enough...
 
Have we seen Danner formula mixed with Venom Buster? Renegade couldn't use the former because he'd already Awakened before he discovered it (and I suppose he never thought to do a global ring-scan to locate other sources of the formula, which would have led to him finding Hugo Danner), and I think the same goes for Tawny/Michael, the only other Venom Buster-enhanced individual around.

What would happen if Renegade had Dannered Circe before Awakening her? Awwakening enhances the most 'special' aspects of you, and I think that her magic would still rank higher in that regard than her physical strength/stamina. Or would her magic aptitude be increased at a slower rate because the Awakening would also be occupied with boosting her Danner-strength?
 
Except alicornisation isn't a test now, is it? It's simply a state of being. You can get there any number of ways, and as long as they don't have drawbacks, they're all equally valid.
getting jacked it a state of being, using steroids to do it is cheating.
As for responsible use of power, I'd say sunset is quite qualified in the use of her power as an individual after Grayven's lessons on being a responsible metahuman, since being responsible involves being aware of the consequences of your actions. Now, keep in mind my only exposure to MLP:FiM is this story and a crack fic I read a while back, but Celestia of all people does not seem to be doing so hot in that regard. As a ruler, she might be all sorts of awesome, but on the interpersonal level, she's all kind's of whack.
I'm unfamiliar with MLP lore but I'd assume that people that aren't born alicorns or aren't happy-go-lucky types might get turned into monsters/evil. like Psykers in 40k if you aren't careful or covered in holy symbols you turn into a chaos spawn.
 
I'm unfamiliar with MLP lore but I'd assume that people that aren't born alicorns or aren't happy-go-lucky types might get turned into monsters/evil. like Psykers in 40k if you aren't careful or covered in holy symbols you turn into a chaos spawn.
Nope. Flim and Flam and that earth pony who ran a resort were pretty bad and completely failed to turn into monsters.
 
Have we seen Danner formula mixed with Venom Buster?
The SI mentioned that Blockbuster does work very well with the Danner formula, I'd assume adding Venom would help too.

What would happen if Renegade had Dannered Circe before Awakening her? Awwakening enhances the most 'special' aspects of you, and I think that her magic would still rank higher in that regard than her physical strength/stamina. Or would her magic aptitude be increased at a slower rate because the Awakening would also be occupied with boost
Likely, yes to the second one, at least that's the reason Renegade gave for not using thr Danner formula on Green Arrow.
 

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