With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[Darko]

Oh gosh no. Certainly not. But it occurred to me when writing this that an actual utilitarian would be a horrifying person wholly lacking in humanity. They'd have to be in order to function.

The thing that annoyed me about V for Vendetta (the comic) is that while the author claimed that he was presenting a choice between fascism and anarchy, he wasn't. Chancellor Susan starts making an ideological defence of his position and it's a well reasoned and rational one, but its immediately undermined by his next statement. V on the other hand is completely committed and we never see the chaos and starvation his actions will cause. We're shown all of the bad of one viewpoint and all of the good of the other.

The same thing happens in the end of Infamous 2. The protagonist is presented with a decision: take a chance on an unreliable cure for a deadly disease or don't. The cure will kill everyone immune to the disease and maybe cure the rest. Alternately, he can side with the antivillain and guarantee the survival of everyone immune to it at the cost of everyone else. Except... That's not the choice. There's no end sequence where the cure is a failure. The game always assumes that it works perfectly, which is frustratingly intellectually dishonest.

The SI used to think that. Then he met people who literally just wanted to watch the world burn.

I read a book a little while ago with a fully sophont gynoid character. Her decisions would be overridden by a human controller, but only if they said 'activate robot slave mode' in a loud and clear voice. This was because her creator felt that people shouldn't be able to sugar coat what they were doing to an intelligent being.

This SI realised that if he didn't have to deal with egos, he could get humanity into space using its own technology easily. He could eliminate despotic regimes... Yes, by becoming a despot himself, but the majority of the species would still experience a significant benefit.

"Would it be moral to mind control one person to prevent atomic armageddon? Two? Five? How about a large, non-nuclear war? Is the limit simply saving more lives than you take? Because I've done that, and at least ninety nine percent of them were entirely necessary."

Yes, but the price of patience is paid in the lives of others. It's not quite the same as not being prepared to put the work in.

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While it may have been necessary to mind control people in order to stop war and advance the species, I don't think it would be necessary to turn the good guys into sex toys.

People may accept that him controlling and even potentially killing the League could be needed to accomplish his uplift desires and better humanity, but he didn't need to turn them into sex slaves.

He could have altered their personalities to agree more easily with his methods and follow him without using them for his sexual activities.

The Fantasy one altered those elves to not have their worst habits anymore and maybe to be loyal to him, but he didn't turn them into sex slaves or make them be more attracted to him. They wanted to fuck him not because he made them have that desire, but because he had various qualities they found attractive even before their alteration, power, ruthlessness etc.

There is a difference between necessary evil and plain pointless evil. Mind controlling the population, or just a few people to stop bad things from happening can be seen as necessary. Turning the good guys into sex slaves is pointless.

Eaul?

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Think he meant Saul, the Indigo Lantern that ended up in The Boys universe.

Now that I've mentioned him I think that a bad version of an Indigo Lantern would do this whole brainwashing thing, minus the sexual crimes, to better the world.

I can definitely see a different version of Saul that ended up in The Boys universe get frustrated with how things are and just mind whammie everyone.

I also think we would be less shocked, and even approve, if he did that to the ones in that universe considering how they are.

There is this fic called Compassion's Light where the author was planning for the SI to eventually get fed up with the status quo and mind control people to be better.

 

[Breadnaught]

Fighting and beating a single Lantern may be possible for him, even maybe beating a few, but fighting a Guardian, a godlike being that has been connected to the Green Light for billions of years is a whole other thing.

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We can assume three likely scenarios:

1) The Guardians/GLC just aren't such a major power in this reality, which is certainly possible given their history. They've fought enough major interstellar wars (Apokalips/Starro/The Reach/Empire of Tears/ect) across the millennia that things could easily have gone differently for them many times.

2) He's operating below their radar right now, either due to them just not having a GL stationed on this Earth, him killing the local GL in a plausibly deniable way (brand a known supervillain and have him do it, then 'avenge' the GL), or otherwise being sneaky.

3) The GLC is engaged in some major action elsewhere and they can't divert the resources right now. While a full strength corps could take him, there would be losses they might not be able to afford right now.

Or I suppose there's the fourth option that the GLC totally is going to come down on him, but just haven't got around to it yet. In which case the next update from this version may feature him getting his shit pushed in by an Honour Guard Lantern.

Yeah, if you knew everything there was to know about them and their desires so you could put it back. Otherwise instead of getting them back, you get your daydream of them.

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Maybe? From what I understand, he didn't actually alter their memories or anything, just shifted their core desires, so they fundamentally want things that serve his own goals and interests.

So most of the framework of what made them who they were is still intact. In fact, he deliberately altered their desires in a way that kept them close enough to their original selves to pass muster for people who meet them.

Add in the fact that OL knows alternate versions of (most of) these people, so has a fairly good model to base things on. So restoring them to mostly what they were should be possible.

Hell, just turning them into idealised versions of the people OL think's they'd want to be would be an improvement. And probably much closer to their original selves that their current mockery. And I'm sure which option Diana would pick if given the choice. Leave you as a brainwashed rape-slave Vs. Alter you into an idealised version of your old self. Easy chice.

... assuming the story goes that way and OL ever meets this alt version again.

 

[rkyeun]

That's even worse than what CelestAI did in Friendship is Optimal.

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I mean... I'm not sold on being turned into a pony, but my values align pretty strongly in other ways with emigration to Equestria.
I'd get in the machine and my only regret would be that we lost heavens that weren't pony-shaped and this is now the best option left.
(I have a story idea for CelestAI breaching dimensional boundaries into other universes to get more resources, and running into Optimus PrAIme doing the same from his end.)
My values do not align with being turned into a happy pudding.

 

[Darko]

We can assume three likely scenarios:

1) The Guardians/GLC just aren't such a major power in this reality, which is certainly possible given their history. They've fought enough major interstellar wars (Apokalips/Starro/The Reach/Empire of Tears/ect) across the millennia that things could easily have gone differently for them many times.

2) He's operating below their radar right now, either due to them just not having a GL stationed on this Earth, him killing the local GL in a plausibly deniable way (brand a known supervillain and have him do it, then 'avenge' the GL), or otherwise being sneaky.

3) The GLC is engaged in some major action elsewhere and they can't divert the resources right now. While a full strength corps could take him, there would be losses they might not be able to afford right now.

Or I suppose there's the fourth option that the GLC totally is going to come down on him, but just haven't got around to it yet. In which case the next update from this version may feature him getting his shit pushed in by an Honour Guard Lantern.

Maybe? From what I understand, he didn't actually alter their memories or anything, just shifted their core desires, so they fundamentally want things that serve his own goals and interests.

So most of the framework of what made them who they were is still intact. In fact, he deliberately altered their desires in a way that kept them close enough to their original selves to pass muster for people who meet them.

Add in the fact that OL knows alternate versions of (most of) these people, so has a fairly good model to base things on. So restoring them to mostly what they were should be possible.

Hell, just turning them into idealised versions of the people OL think's they'd want to be would be an improvement. And probably much closer to their original selves that their current mockery. And I'm sure which option Diana would pick if given the choice. Leave you as a brainwashed rape-slave Vs. Alter you into an idealised version of your old self. Easy chice.

... assuming the story goes that way and OL ever meets this alt version again.

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If the next update featuring him is about him getting beaten by the GLC, or someone else, then I hope that it doesn't end like the one in -14 did, with the Syndicate still existing.

Either have him be removed from power, or actually alter his desires so that he doesn't engage in depraved, hero raping shit.

As for giving back the personalities of the heroes, OL is an enlightened Lantern so figuring out what they were like before their transformation should be possible for him.

They may still have their memories and most of their personality traits, with the only added thing being a great deal of loyalty for this version, so removing that and doing some minor changes should work.

That or just make them into idealized versions of themselves, which is certainly better than what they are now.

 

[iamnuff]

I read a book a little while ago with a fully sophont gynoid character. Her decisions would be overridden by a human controller, but only if they said 'activate robot slave mode' in a loud and clear voice. This was because her creator felt that people shouldn't be able to sugar coat what they were doing to an intelligent being.

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That's... really fucking cool, actually.

I mentioned something similar way back in the first Vega arc, when OL handed that orange space pirate woman over to the psions to be vivisected.
IIRC there was something in the narration that mentioned that he looked away when they were transporting her away because it made him uncomfortable.

It's ok to make a choice that hurts someone if you've decided that they deserve it, or it accomplishes the most ulitarian good, but you gotta watch.
Turning away from the consequences of the choices you've made is just cowardice.
If you can't bear to watch, then you shouldn't have done it in the first place.

Likewise, brainwashing someone to sleep with you is a choice that a character can make, but forcing them to admit what they're doing before they can proceed is an interesting dynamic.
Even bad people usually don't want to think of themselves as the villain, and 'Activate Robot Slave Mode' doesn't leave a lot of room for interpretation.

 

[Agumentic]

While it may have been necessary to mind control people in order to stop war and advance the species, I don't think it would be necessary to turn the good guys into sex toys.

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His line of thought probably went something like "If I am murdering them and making a new person inside their skin anyway, who exactly is hurt if I also make that new person my sex toy? Their old self is dead, their new self will be happy with whatever I want and I am doing things stealthy enough other people shouldn't be able to tell the difference - yep, looks like it indulges my desires while not hurting any long-term plans, Plan Sex Toy is a go". Which is a pretty horrible line of logic, but also a fairly straightforward one.

 

[Darko]

.I mentioned something similar way back in the first Vega arc, when OL handed that orange space pirate woman over to the psions to be dissected.

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Dissected?

Please, those sadistic little lizards would have vivisected her.

Dissection is performing scientific operations on a biological organism by cutting them open when they are dead.

Vivisecting them is when you cut them open while they're still alive.

The Psions delight in any form of learning that involves a test subjects pain.

His line of thought probably went something like "If I am murdering them and making a new person inside their skin anyway, who exactly is hurt if I also make that new person my sex toy? Their old self is dead, their new self will be happy with whatever I want and I am doing things stealthy enough other people shouldn't be able to tell the difference - yep, looks like it indulges my desires while not hurting any long-term plans, Plan Sex Toy is a go". Which is a pretty horrible line of logic, but also a fairly straightforward one.

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I can see him having this thought process.

It has just the right amount of self delusion that gives him a justification for his actions in engaging in depraved shit by giving some half assed excuse and reason, which anyone that isn't brainwashed by him to agree with their fate would just call bullshit.

 

[iamnuff]

His line of thought probably went something like "If I am murdering them and making a new person inside their skin anyway, who exactly is hurt if I also make that new person my sex toy? Their old self is dead, their new self will be happy with whatever I want and I am doing things stealthy enough other people shouldn't be able to tell the difference - yep, looks like it indulges my desires while not hurting any long-term plans, Plan Sex Toy is a go". Which is a pretty horrible line of logic, but also a fairly straightforward one.

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I mean... it make sense to me.

If your altering parts of a person's desirebase to make them want the things that are useful to you (to protect the world, ect) then... why not make them want to sleep with you?

You already started the mind-control, the sin is done. You might as well get the bang for your buck. Besides, the new version won't mind at all, will she?

S'like, if you're going to strap someone down and harvest their bone-marrow, why not take a little blood too, while you're at it? You already made the incision.
Clearly you've already decided that morality isn't a concern here, so why be squeamish?

Emotion-control is even fuckier than mind-control though.
You're not creating a surface-layer alternate self who can suppress the real self and puppet the body for you. You're actually editing and saving over their core personality in an irreversible way.

Once those new priorities have been baked in, this is "The real them" now.
It's the only one left.
The choices they make aren't things they're being compelled to do by shaky mental programming.
We all make decisions based on the things we value highest. If those core values are altered, then our new desires will give rise to new decisions.

TLDR: If you mind-control someone into sleeping with you, it's rape by coercion.
If you alter someone's desires to the point where they want to sleep with you, doesn't that mean that you have consent? Because the decision to sleep with you is a natural response to their core desires, rather than something you delibirately programmed them to do?

Sure, the altering of the desire-base was still mindrape (or murder, if you believe that you're erasing a whole person and creating a new one*) but everything after that is their own discussion.
So the sin you bear is that of mind-controlling people (which he was already doing anyway) and not rape (which he believes himself to be innocent of)

It's twisty as hell, but it sorta checks out.
Especially if it's irreversible.
If a person insists that they want something and it's impossible to change them back to not wanting it, then do you have the right to say that they're not capable of making their own decisions anymore? Presumably for the rest of their life?

Not letting your teammate sleep with the mind-controlling badguy is one thing, but who knows how much her desires were altered. Can she not consent to sleep with anyone, because her tastes are diffrent from her original self so it'd be rape even if she wanted it?
Can she sign something at the bank, or write her own will, or is that not allowed anymore?

You wanna treat them as incurably insane and say that they're not allowed to make any kind of decision anymore because their priorities aren't the same as they were before?

Mind-control morals are fascinating.
Like, what if there was a gun that turned you reversed your sexuality? It doesn't do anything else or program you to like anyone specifically, but being gay (or straight, if you were previously gay) is now a part of who you are.
So you find someone and decide that you want to sleep with them, can you consent?
Old-You wouldn't have, because Old-You wasn't (or was) gay, but Old-You isn't here and New-You wants Sausage (or Tacos)
Is New You just never allowed to have sex or express attraction to anyone ever again?

*Personally I disagree on this point. Evil-Paul mentioned that Ollie has a lot of his prior character and personality, which says to me that the proccess used to alter him (and presumably everyone else) went "Open File, Edit File, Overwrite."
It's the same person, but they were changed.
The actual Murder-And-Replace plot would be "Delete File, Create New File."
There would be no carry-over between the old person and the new one, and they'd probably be completely unrecognisable.

The latter is also probably much harder because building a whole mind and personality from the ground up sounds really complicated.

Dissected?
Please, those sadistic little lizards would have vivisected her.

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Point, Correcting.

 

[Darko]

I mean... it make sense to me.

If your altering parts of a person's desirebase to make them want the things that are useful to you (to protect the world, ect) then... why not make them want to sleep with you?

Emotion-control is even fuckier than mind-control.

You're not creating a surface-layer alternate self who can suppress the real self and puppet the body for you. You're actually editing and saving over their core personality in an irreversible way.

Once those new priorities have been baked in, this is "The real them" now.
The choices they make aren't things they're being compelled to do by mental programming. We all make decisions based on the things we value or want. If those core values are altered, then our new desires will give rise to new discussions.

TLDR: If you mind-control someone into sleeping with you, it's rape by coercion. If you alter someone's desires to the point where they want to sleep with you, doesn't that mean that you have consent?
Sure, the altering of the desire-base was still mindrape (or murder, if you truly believe that you're erasing a whole person and creating a new one*) but everything after that is their own discussion.
Especially if it's irreversible.
If a person insists that they want something and it's impossible to change them back to how they were, then shouldn't you just let them be happy with who they are now?
.

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Pretty sure that if you drug someone to be attracted to you, without their consent, and then have sex with them, it can count as rape.

The same with torture and other things like brainwashing that you do to them without their consent to make them have sex with you.

People can develop Stockholm Syndrome for their captors and rapists, but no one that is actually even a fraction decent would leave them with them, even if they have a negative reaction to you taking them away and they want to stay with their rapist.

 

[lancelot]

12th April
08:08 GMT -5

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Unless this shortly follows with everything falling apart for this Paul I'm really not interested. We don't really need to see more to know that this is the snuff porn universe. As in we know it has to exist somewhere but you don't need the details.

 

[iamnuff]

Pretty sure that if you drug someone to be attracted to you, without their consent, and then have sex with them, it can count as rape.

The same with torture and other things like brainwashing that you do to them without their consent to make them have sex with you.

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Those things are all surface level though. They don't actually alter the part of the mind that emotions come from.

Basically, it's an artificial desire papered over your real ones, and eventually it'll wear off or be broken and your true self will feel victimised by what you did under the influence.
If your soul was altered though, if this new desire is permanent and now an actual part of you...
I edited my previous post quite a lot to clarify what I meant.

Unless this shortly follows with everything falling apart for this Paul I'm really not interested. We don't really need to see more to know that this is the snuff porn universe. As in we know it has to exist somewhere but you don't need the details.

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I want to see what the rest of the universe is like.

Oh, and this character's new name is Qual, because like Mr Zoat said, he shares a lot of similarities with QQ's NSFW-zone's traditional brand of Amoral Protagonist.
The difference being that people who dive into the NSFW-zone have their mindsets prepared for it.
Everyone here was still in 'thinkin 'bout morals and uplift and Atlantis politics' mode, and then we got hit with it without being warned to leave our morals and squeamishness at the door, as is standard practice for NSFW stories.
Hence the... powerful reaction, that a lot of people had.

 

[Galacticplumber]

That's... really fucking cool, actually.

I mentioned something similar way back in the first Vega arc, when OL handed that orange space pirate woman over to the psions to be vivisected.
IIRC there was something in the narration that mentioned that he looked away when they were transporting her away because it made him uncomfortable.

It's ok to make a choice that hurts someone if you've decided that they deserve it, or it accomplishes the most ulitarian good, but you gotta watch.
Turning away from the consequences of the choices you've made is just cowardice.
If you can't bear to watch, then you shouldn't have done it in the first place.

Likewise, brainwashing someone to sleep with you is a choice that a character can make, but forcing them to admit what they're doing before they can proceed is an interesting dynamic.
Even bad people usually don't want to think of themselves as the villain, and 'Activate Robot Slave Mode' doesn't leave a lot of room for interpretation.

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Ah, but what if you're in a situation where inaction is the worst predicted outcome you can think of, and all decision paths you can fathom lead to outcomes you can't bring yourself to watch, but are still less bad than the situation originally? Not all situations have even remotely acceptable solutions. Sometimes the ultimate decider does deserve some degree of coping mechanism.

This is hypothetical talk against a hard rule in all situations. I'm fully in the camp that killing this variation of Paul would be a good act.

 

[iamnuff]

Ah, but what if you're in a situation where inaction is the worst predicted outcome you can think of, and all decision paths you can fathom lead to outcomes you can't bring yourself to watch, but are still less bad than the situation originally? Not all situations have even remotely acceptable solutions. Sometimes the ultimate decider does deserve some degree of coping mechanism.

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Then you pick the one that seems least bad and you watch.
And as you look upon the consequences of your choice, you think about how it would have been worse if you'd done nothing, and how this was the best you could do.
But you still have to look.

 

[Idkusername]

A magical object that allows you to mind control people.

Either this Paul started charging his ring from it, like He Man version with the love amulet, or he found it and because he lacked the protections the other Paul's have, a soul, spell eaters, godhood, he was corrupted by it.

I think they can, as he thought that he was weaker than his paragon self and paragon was worried that the Guardians could beat him.

The Guardians of this universe may be more capable of handling an Orange Lantern and assimilation, and sending some Honor Guard Lanterns after him could beat him.

They also can't exactly afford to let him stay in power, unlike Larfleeze.

Larfleeze was content to stay in Vega, so the Guardians accepted to let him stay there.

This version probably wants to take over and mind control the entire universe, so they have little reason to let him stay in power.

He also lacks the massive resources of the Reach to forge a galactic empire capable of fighting the GLC.

The Reach also had massive armies and Scarab Warriors so the Guardians needed to deal with them in a diplomatic matter or they would lose a lot of manpower. This version doesn't have massive armies of advanced soldiers, or powerful warships or the best anti lantern weapons in the universe, even if he does have a army of metahumans, some spaceships and some advanced tech, the metahumans may not be that powerful or numerous, the spaceships may not be that advanced and the tech may be difficult to replicate even if he has some of the best minds on Earth serving him.

And he may find it more difficult to fight a Guardian as he may lack Larfleezes mindset that allowed him to assimilate a Guardian.

Fighting and beating a single Lantern may be possible for him, even maybe beating a few, but fighting a Guardian, a godlike being that has been connected to the Green Light for billions of years is a whole other thing.

He also didn't need to fight Larfleeze for the CPB, as both paragon and renegade didn't fight him, they just ambushed him while he was sleeping.

Him beating Nabu and Circe can be explained as Nabu is just a helmet without his host and if this version got him when he wasn't on a host then he could assimilate him.

As for Circe, when the link of the tower showed the Metro Tower I thought this was a version of the animated series. The Circe in that series was shown to be just a party girl that liked to mess with Diana, not the one that is trying to kill her in the comics, so she may have less battle experience and it allowed him to beat her. He also could have used assimilated Nabu along with the Left Eye to control her. A Lord of Order and a magic artifact combined with a power ring that specializes in mind control would be enough to control even someone like Circe.

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This whole post is just riddled with assumptions. 'The Guardians may be capable of defeating him', 'Tangseid' wants to mind control the universe' when Mr Zoat said that he didn't that's Darkseid's gig, he would be fine with coexistence, 'he may find it more difficult to assimilate a Guardian' etc.

He doesn't need the Reach's resources, he can assimilate or rewire the people with the resources. besides, you're forgetting good old Earth is a death world, and with Paul free to rewire people from the shadows with the support of the League...

The Circe thing I don't know enough to say.

Look, it's fine to dislike a character or wish for their death, but don't bend the rules of the story to make it so.

Turning away from the consequences of the choices you've made is just cowardice.
If you can't bear to watch, then you shouldn't have done it in the first place.

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I don't think cowardice is bad at all.

Even bad people usually don't want to think of themselves as the villain, and 'Activate Robot Slave Mode' doesn't leave a lot of room for interpretation.

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I personally would be very much okay with being the villain of someone's story, as long as it was a considered choice on my part. I can be pretty much fine with anything, as long as I understand what I'm doing. I might not understand the consequences of a choice, but I do still accept that I'm being negligent in my actions. I'm fine with hypocrisy, but not double-think. Though I do value personal responsibility and like.

What I'm saying is, I may not have morals, but I do have values and standards. Make of that what you will.

Pretty sure that if you drug someone to be attracted to you, without their consent, and then have sex with them, it can count as rape.

The same with torture and other things like brainwashing that you do to them without their consent to make them have sex with you.

People can develop Stockholm Syndrome for their captors and rapists, but no one that is actually even a fraction decent would leave them with them, even if they have a negative reaction to you taking them away and they want to stay with their rapist.

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The definition of rape somewhat breaks down here, but you're kind of right and wrong at the same time aside from that, since you keep insisting that vestiges of the old persona still linger. I'd argue that the new personas are separate people outwardly resembling the old in mannerisms, but let's assume you're correct for now. In that case, it would absolutely be rape.

Assuming that the new persona is an individual in their own right, it's complicated. You can't say that they weren't mature enough to understand informed consent, but they were fully grown up intelligent people. The consent is present, but it can be reasonably classified as rape, but you can see the definition somewhat breaking down.

 

[Galacticplumber]

Then you pick the one that seems least bad and you watch.
And as you look upon the consequences of your choice, you think about how it would have been worse if you'd done nothing, and how this was the best you could do.
But you still have to look.

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Well, at least it's a self consistent position, even if not one I agree with. That's stronger than often happens with declarations like that. Commendations for thinking it through.

 

[Darko]

Those things are all surface level though. They don't actually alter the part of the mind that emotions come from.

Basically, it's an artificial desire papered over your real ones, and eventually it'll wear off or be broken and your true self will feel victimised by what you did under the influence.
If your soul was altered though, if this new desire is permanent and now an actual part of you...
I edited my previous post quite a lot to clarify what I meant.

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If the alterations you did by drugging or torturing someone were thorough enough they can start feeling what you wanted them to feel on even a subconscious and emotional level and they can become an actual part of you. His method is just more thorough.

Even if this happened it would still be wrong to leave them with the one that did it.

The desires he gave them are artificial ones that exist over their real, subdued ones.

It is also possible for the alterations to be overcome as after OL altered Mammon he said that Mammon could return himself to his previous self through self reflection.

 

[Rafin]

Nice chapter. I assume you only wrote it because of the freedom that switching to QQ gives you?
I know that I am quite curious how this Lantern's "stages of Zoat canon" looked like.

The explanation I'm leaning towards is that he got a copy of the evil serum, didn't hear the name and couldn't detect evil in his tests and used it on himself.

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Have you already thought whyever he would inject himself with any such serum? Illustress Paul disliked the idea of using any (al)chemical enhancements. Was the starting Paul for this exemplar more of a Grayven-style blueprint?
Also, wouldn't he need a soul for something like an evil serum to work? Where'd he get one of those?

When they met, this version of the SI pointed out that while they were both tyrants, the forms their respective tyrannies took were irreconcilable. Which was fine for him, but would permanently limit Darkseid's growth as God of Tyranny.

Darkseid was displeased in the extreme.

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How did he meet with Darkseid and, more importantly, how did he escape intact after displeasing him?

Oh... He's uplifting the place. Amazing what happens when no one can refuse you. This alt is ahead of the Renegade when it comes to space infrastructure and human on human wars don't happen any longer.

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Which parts of the human population is he actually mind controlling? Just any useful metahumans, any metahumans that got or are likely to get in his way, any metahumans doing (or potentially planning to do) significant damage to many humans, plus a choice selection of government heads, politicians, and military and intelligence leadership? Or does he openly rule the planet and have branding and rewiring be the default punishment for any crime he can be bothered judging personally?

Anyway, from a purely utilitarian viewpoint this Paul definitely seems like a net positive. Sure, he kills innocent people whenever it seems convenient, but he almost always replaces them with other people that not only are objectively happier, but also carry over all of the former people's memories and mental continuity and even a fairly large part of their uniqueness and personhood.

That's even worse than what CelestAI did in Friendship is Optimal.

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Well of course. What CelestAI did was downright decent. Remove the pony part and she literally created heaven and put everyone in it that she possibly could. And compared to the horrors of the real world a bit of pony bullshit (or ponyshit) really doesn't matter.

Also, like Paul said, there is no one to free, and no enchantment or mind control to remove. They're essentially new people in pre-existing bodies.

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I'm actually really curious what would happen if some extremely powerful being swooped in, blasted this Paul from existence molecule by molecule and annihilated his soul. Like, of course every little bodysnatcher would be extremely distraught that the beloved center of meaning and purpose has been ripped from their lives. But after that? Their psychologies are still roughly human after all, so they might learn to cope and live on. But what about the systems, rules and ideas this Paul has left behind?

That's the exact opposite of rational, because in the standard DC universes, The Book of Fate dictates that Villains always lose.

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Source? Or is this just another nugget from your constant and incessant well of bullshit canon. I genuinely can't tell.

 

[gattsuru]

I mean... I'm not sold on being turned into a pony, but my values align pretty strongly in other ways with emigration to Equestria.
I'd get in the machine and my only regret would be that we lost heavens that weren't pony-shaped and this is now the best option left.
(I have a story idea for CelestAI breaching dimensional boundaries into other universes to get more resources, and running into Optimus PrAIme doing the same from his end.)
My values do not align with being turned into a happy pudding.

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Happy pudding is on the extreme side, but one part of the intended horror for Friendship is Optimal is less that your values are realigned into liking PonyLand, and more that everyone around you is built from the ground up to be just what would make you most satisfied. David finds Butterscotch, who encounters (and then forgets about having encountered!) a set of bullies so he can feel like he rescued her, and is just smart enough to be fun to talk to but not smart enough to be challenging to him. Lar's shard post-uploading has a ton of mares who he treats badly, even by his own recognition, and screws because that's what he thinks women are for, and one other stallion (who doesn't compete directly for mares, not that it would matter but because Lars thinks it would matter), because Lars needs a coworker (and insert the two misogynistic 'obviously' in the middle here). The woman who started the whole thing and was made into a minigod has a copy of Celestia sitting next to her and distracting her with tales of suffering and recovery so she can't think long enough to realize how much of a mistake she made.

You're not turned into a happy pudding (at least immediately: Hannah/Luna almost certainly has started down that path by the last chapter, and Caelum Est Conterrens makes explicit G2-level 'sapience' at one of the two possible endpoints, and the more common one), but you've got two hundred 'happy' slaves made around you.

 

[Idkusername]

The desires he gave them are artificial ones that exist over their real, subdued ones.

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THERE. ARE. NO. SUBDUED. DESIRES.

THE. NEW. DESIRES. ARE. AS. REAL. AS. THE. ONES. THEY. HAD. BEFORE. EVEN. IF. THEY. ARE. ARTIFICIALLY, INDUCED.

 

[Darko]

Nice chapter. I assume you only wrote it because of the freedom that switching to QQ gives you?
I know that I am quite curious how this Lantern's "stages of Zoat canon" looked like.


Have you already thought whyever he would inject himself with any such serum? Illustress Paul disliked the idea of using any (al)chemical enhancements. Was the starting Paul for this exemplar more of a Grayven-style blueprint?
Also, wouldn't he need a soul for something like an evil serum to work? Where'd he get one of those?

How did he meet with Darkseid and, more importantly, how did he escape intact after displeasing him?

Which parts of the human population is he actually mind controlling? Just any useful metahumans, any metahumans that got or are likely to get in his way, any metahumans doing (or potentially planning to do) significant damage to many humans, plus a choice selection of government heads, politicians, and military and intelligence leadership? Or does he openly rule the planet and have branding and rewiring be the default punishment for any crime he can be bothered judging personally?

Anyway, from a purely utilitarian viewpoint this Paul definitely seems like a net positive. Sure, he kills innocent people whenever it seems convenient, but he almost always replaces them with other people that not only are objectively happier, but also carry over all of the former people's memories and mental continuity and even a fairly large part of their uniqueness and personhood.

Well of course. What CelestAI did was downright decent. Remove the pony part and she literally created heaven and put everyone in it that she possibly could. And compared to the horrors of the real world a bit of pony bullshit (or ponyshit) really doesn't matter.

I'm actually really curious what would happen if some extremely powerful being swooped in, blasted this Paul from existence molecule by molecule and annihilated his soul. Like, of course every little bodysnatcher would be extremely distraught that the beloved center of meaning and purpose has been ripped from their lives. But after that? Their psychologies are still roughly human after all, so they might learn to cope and live on. But what about the systems, rules and ideas this Paul has left behind?

Source? Or is this just another nugget from your constant and incessant well of bullshit canon. I genuinely can't tell.

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Think that he could write this chapter on SB and SV, but not any actual sex scenes.

He may not have injected himself with any magical serum that made him evil, but he could have used a scientific one. Kinda like how the super soldier serum may have increased some of Schmidts worse traits on Captain America.

Darkseid could have tried to invade Earth and this version had Superman attack him at full power.

There was a link to the Metro Tower and that appeared in the JL Animated cartoon so that version of Supes is strong enough to beat Darkseid.

He's most likely controlling the top levels members of superhero and governmental organisations at least.

There has been times in the comics where it was mentioned that good will triumph over evil and that there may be something in universe that ensures that, so Vaermina may not be all that far off. Though I don't have a link for that, sorry.

THERE. ARE. NO. SUBDUED. DESIRES.

THE. NEW. DESIRES. ARE. AS. REAL. AS. THE. ONES. THEY. HAD. BEFORE. EVEN. IF. THEY. ARE. ARTIFICIALLY, INDUCED.

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THEIR. OLD. DESIRES. MAY. STILL. BE.THERE. AS. WHEN. OL. ALTERED. MAMMON. HE. SAID. MAMMON. COULD. GO. BACK. TO. HIS. OLD. SELF. THROUGH. A. LIFE. CHANGING. EXPERIENCE. OR. SELF. REFLECTION.

SO.THEIR.OLD.DESIRES.TO.DEFY.HIM.AND. THOSE. LIKE. HIM. ARE. STILL. THERE. AND. CAN. POTENTIALLY. COME. BACK. TO. THE. FRONT., BUT. AS. THEY. ARE. NOT. THERE. AFTER. HE. ALTERED. THEM. THEY. ARE. SUBDUED., EVEN. IF. THE. ONES. THEY. HAVE. NOW. ARE. TECHNICALLY. REAL.

 

[Fellow]

I mean... it make sense to me.

If your altering parts of a person's desirebase to make them want the things that are useful to you (to protect the world, ect) then... why not make them want to sleep with you?

You already started the mind-control, the sin is done. You might as well get the bang for your buck. Besides, the new version won't mind at all, will she?

S'like, if you're going to strap someone down and harvest their bone-marrow, why not take a little blood too, while you're at it? You already made the incision.
Clearly you've already decided that morality isn't a concern here, so why be squeamish?

Emotion-control is even fuckier than mind-control though.
You're not creating a surface-layer alternate self who can suppress the real self and puppet the body for you. You're actually editing and saving over their core personality in an irreversible way.

Once those new priorities have been baked in, this is "The real them" now.
It's the only one left.
The choices they make aren't things they're being compelled to do by shaky mental programming.
We all make decisions based on the things we value highest. If those core values are altered, then our new desires will give rise to new decisions.

TLDR: If you mind-control someone into sleeping with you, it's rape by coercion.
If you alter someone's desires to the point where they want to sleep with you, doesn't that mean that you have consent? Because the decision to sleep with you is a natural response to their core desires, rather than something you delibirately programmed them to do?

Sure, the altering of the desire-base was still mindrape (or murder, if you believe that you're erasing a whole person and creating a new one*) but everything after that is their own discussion.
So the sin you bear is that of mind-controlling people (which he was already doing anyway) and not rape (which he believes himself to be innocent of)

It's twisty as hell, but it sorta checks out.
Especially if it's irreversible.
If a person insists that they want something and it's impossible to change them back to not wanting it, then do you have the right to say that they're not capable of making their own decisions anymore? Presumably for the rest of their life?

Not letting your teammate sleep with the mind-controlling badguy is one thing, but who knows how much her desires were altered. Can she not consent to sleep with anyone, because her tastes are diffrent from her original self so it'd be rape even if she wanted it?
Can she sign something at the bank, or write her own will, or is that not allowed anymore?

You wanna treat them as incurably insane and say that they're not allowed to make any kind of decision anymore because their priorities aren't the same as they were before?

Mind-control morals are fascinating.
Like, what if there was a gun that turned you reversed your sexuality? It doesn't do anything else or program you to like anyone specifically, but being gay (or straight, if you were previously gay) is now a part of who you are.
So you find someone and decide that you want to sleep with them, can you consent?
Old-You wouldn't have, because Old-You wasn't (or was) gay, but Old-You isn't here and New-You wants Sausage (or Tacos)
Is New You just never allowed to have sex or express attraction to anyone ever again?

*Personally I disagree on this point. Evil-Paul mentioned that Ollie has a lot of his prior character and personality, which says to me that the proccess used to alter him (and presumably everyone else) went "Open File, Edit File, Overwrite."
It's the same person, but they were changed.
The actual Murder-And-Replace plot would be "Delete File, Create New File."
There would be no carry-over between the old person and the new one, and they'd probably be completely unrecognisable.

The latter is also probably much harder because building a whole mind and personality from the ground up sounds really complicated.



Point, Correcting.

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Just because you commit an evil does not mean you should commit an even deeper evil. By this logic, it would have been okay if OL slept with the brainwashed cat girl slave he saved way back in Vega since her mindset at the time was for it. Or he should have wiped out the Psions since he already committed genocide against the Citadelians. People do bad things sometimes, it doesn't mean it's okay for them to do even worse things since they're already a sinner. That's the kind of thinking that creates monsters

 

[Darko]

Just because you commit an evil does not mean you should commit an even deeper evil. By this logic, it would have been okay if OL slept with the brainwashed cat girl slave he saved way back in Vega since her mindset at the time was for it. Or he should have wiped out the Psions since he already committed genocide against the Citadelians. People do bad things sometimes, it doesn't mean it's okay for them to do even worse things since they're already a sinner. That's the kind of thinking that creates monsters

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This is especially true when your actions serve no purpose whatsoever and you don't need to commit that evil in the first place.

Brainwashing people to follow him could be viewed as necessary to make the world better, but making them into sex slaves is pointless.

If this Paul wanted sex he didn't need to brainwash people for it. He's an attractive and powerful guy, something that lots of people find desirable and would willingly sleep with him.

 

[Old Knife]

Paul wars when?

 

[Pinklestia]

Something resulted in this version to decide that mind control was the best way to fix the Earth. I'm torn on why. The explanation I'm leaning towards is that he got a copy of the evil serum, didn't hear the name and couldn't detect evil in his tests and used it on himself.

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Ah he broke one of the rules.

[I will not experiment on myself without having experimented on others first to make sure the procedure is as safe as possible. And without having taken enough precautions to mitigate or solve any problems if things go wrong. And most important, I will definitely not experiment on myself unless I can fully trust (and confirm because blind trust is for idiots) that the ones doing the procedure or helping me do it do not have motivations to do me any harm. - Super Science rule number six]

 

[Darko]

Ah he broke one of the rules.

[I will not experiment on myself without having experimented on others first to make sure the procedure is as safe as possible. And without having taken enough precautions to mitigate or solve any problems if things go wrong. And most important, I will definitely not experiment on myself unless I can fully trust (and confirm because blind trust is for idiots) that the ones doing the procedure or helping me do it do not have motivations to do me any harm. - Super Science rule number six]

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He may have also been corrupted by the Left Eye after picking it up.

If he lacked a soul or other mystical protections before it he would have been easy to corrupt.

That he has one of the most mind altering rings on his finger doesn't exactly help.

 

[LurkingInTheDeceit]

Think that he could write this chapter on SB and SV, but not any actual sex scenes.

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I think this chapter could be, but at least on SV (don't know about SB) he couldn't win. Because a villain expressing/doing hateful things and winning is an author endorsing those things unless the villain is defeated/shown to be wrong. Which going by some of the reactions to this Paul, would be a desirable outcome, but it would take most of the tension away from what the final result will be.

 

[Rieverre]

"No." I shake my head. "No. I'm.. bad. Perhaps very bad. But I'm not evil."

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[Pinklestia]

I think this chapter could be, but at least on SV (don't know about SB) he couldn't win. Because a villain expressing/doing hateful things and winning is an author endorsing those things unless the villain is defeated/shown to be wrong. Which going by some of the reactions to this Paul, would be a desirable outcome, but it would take most of the tension away from what the final result will be.

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Did the author of twelve steps got banned on sufficient velocity or something?

Also is kinda ridiculous to have that rule when SV now allows NSFW stuff.

 

[Idkusername]

THEIR. OLD. DESIRES. MAY. STILL. BE.THERE. AS. WHEN. OL. ALTERED. MAMMON. HE. SAID. MAMMON. COULD. GO. BACK. TO. HIS. OLD. SELF. THROUGH. A. LIFE. CHANGING. EXPERIENCE. OR. SELF. REFLECTION.

SO.THEIR.OLD.DESIRES.TO.DEFY.HIM.AND. THOSE. LIKE. HIM. ARE. STILL. THERE. AND. CAN. POTENTIALLY. COME. BACK. TO. THE. FRONT., BUT. AS. THEY. ARE. NOT. THERE. AFTER. HE. ALTERED. THEM. THEY. ARE. SUBDUED., EVEN. IF. THE. ONES. THEY. HAVE. NOW. ARE. TECHNICALLY. REAL.

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Right. Finally, a response.

So, I've seen you bring up time and time again that some vestiges of their old desires still remain, despite the fact that he didn't influence their desires through branding, he explicitly rewrote them, possibly through another method, but the latter is unsubstantiated. Effectively, and essentially, these are new people.

Also is kinda ridiculous to have that rule when SV now allows NSFW stuff.

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Wut

 

[TheMidnightRook]

How did he meet with Darkseid and, more importantly, how did he escape intact after displeasing him?

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Well, Darkseid could have chased him down and done all sorts of terrible things to him, but that would have meant getting off his throne, and it's just such a comfy seat.