With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[Idkusername]

I just noticed something.

This episode is called Plutonian.

In the comics there is an evil Superman expy called the Plutonian.

In an episode named after an evil version of a good character we are introduced to an evil version of this stories MC.

As long as we get to see him get taken down then I'm all for seeing him again.

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These snippets of alternate Pauls get their own titles, and this is named after Voltaire's 'When you're evil'. The chapter name has nothing to do with these snippets.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Gonna be honest my reaction is mostly "This is so far from Uplift I can't see it through all the gravity wells therefore I request that you die and would make you do so should you not comply."

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Oh... He's uplifting the place. Amazing what happens when no one can refuse you. This alt is ahead of the Renegade when it comes to space infrastructure and human on human wars don't happen any longer.

 

[Darko]

These snippets of alternate Pauls get their own titles, and this is named after Voltaire's 'When you're evil'. The chapter name has nothing to do with these snippets.

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Zoat introduced an evil version of Paul in an episode whose title sounds like the name of an evil version of Superman.

That may not be a complete coincidence.

In the last episode, that was titled Low Politics, he showed several versions dealing with political issues, like Lord Protector with Thunderan rule and Anti Green with Kaznian safety.

 

[The Unaligned Player]

Oh... He's uplifting the place. Amazing what happens when no one can refuse you. This alt is ahead of the Renegade when it comes to space infrastructure and human on human wars don't happen any longer.

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This is not Uplift. A magic child soldier has realized what this grown man hasn't: Do not make your world an extension of you.

 

[Darko]

This is not Uplift. A magic child soldier has realized what this grown man hasn't: Do not make your world an extension of you.

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Especially when you're an evil and self deluded bastard.

 

[CTrees]

I really want someone to put a bullet or serval in to that Paul's head.

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Putting a serval in someone's head would just be cruel, both to the person and to the cat.

 

[Darko]

Putting a serval in someone's head would just be cruel, both to the person and to the cat.

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Hey this version deserves to be mauled to death, and if they can find a serval that mauled some innocent person to death then I don't think a lot of people will care about its treatment.

 

[Soul Shocker]

I give it a year before the Guardians send Blue Lanterns to kill him and free all the beings he enslaved.

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As he said... they're dead, there is nothing to free.

 

[Darko]

As he said... they're dead, there is nothing to free.

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They may still be floating in the back of their minds and he just believes he completely got rid of them, so it still may be possible to bring them back.

Even if that isn't the case they can still stop him from doing it to other people.

This version is most likely less powerful than paragon and paragon thought that the Guardians could beat him.

 

[Idkusername]

They may still be floating in the back of their minds and he just believes he completely got rid of them, so it still may be possible to bring them back.

Even if that isn't the case they can still stop him from doing it to other people.

This version is most likely less powerful than paragon and paragon thought that the Guardians could beat him.

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Look, the Guardians cannot afford to fight this Paul. Sure, America could nuke Russia. I could break a KitKat sideways. It's just not worth the manpower they would have to expend. You have to remember that these Greenies have no resistance to assimilation.

 

[LurkingInTheDeceit]

I kind of get what Paul was saying with the 'I'm a very bad person, but not Evil' thing. If he's been stopping basically all human war, making technological/medical advancements come quicker and combining earths manpower(and combat power) more effectively through his actions, then maybe he's more of a positive force for Good than one for Evil. Still doesn't make him a good person though, but I'm kinda fine with characters being bad people.

 

[TheMidnightRook]

Since no one wants to coin a name for this version of Paul, I am suggesting Lighter Shade of Darkseid, or LSD for short.

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Ciber actually had a possibility:

Paul (in name only)

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So we have either Lighter Shade of Darkseid (LSD), or Paul in name only (PINO).

I personally prefer PINO, as it sounds silly and mocking when used in acronym form. Whereas Lighter Shade of Darkseid sounds like an installment in a fusion of DC and Fifty Shades of Grey.

 

[WereDragon]

You're fucking evil."

"No." I shake my head. "No. I'm.. bad. Perhaps very bad. But I'm not evil."

"You mind control people and rape them."

"If I were 'evil', I'd be doing it for the sake of causing suffering. As it is, I'm doing it for my own selfish benefit. To efficiently realise my goals. And often that means that other people benefit as well.

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I can think of a great many morality systems that would classify such as more or less the definition of Evil.
Including that of Sir Terry Pratchett.

For all the shit Gravy got at the very start, his actions were understandable to a degree. We have all likely raged against the stupidity of the "no kill" rule supers follow, when easily preventable, evil plotline of the week occurs and innocents die in their droves. However he stuck to the spirit of the law, rather than the letter and ensured the incontrovertibley guilty got punished, rather than wigging out when they try the ole diplomatic immunity or insanity defence.

But mind raping, then raping the good guys, just because you don't like the way things are being done is a whole nother level of fucked up.

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Grayven is an unrepentant arsehole. However he doesn't inflict much actual damage on undeserving targets.
This morally bankrupt piece of flesh openly admits to having utterly destroyed everyone around him for his own personal benefit.

 

[Darko]

The fuck is the left eye of Zoltec?

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A magical object that allows you to mind control people.

Either this Paul started charging his ring from it, like He Man version with the love amulet, or he found it and because he lacked the protections the other Paul's have, a soul, spell eaters, godhood, he was corrupted by it.

Look, the Guardians cannot afford to fight this Paul. Sure, America could nuke Russia. I could break a KitKat sideways. It's just not worth the manpower they would have to expend. You have to remember that these Greenies have no resistance to assimilation.

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I think they can, as he thought that he was weaker than his paragon self and paragon was worried that the Guardians could beat him.

The Guardians of this universe may be more capable of handling an Orange Lantern and assimilation, and sending some Honor Guard Lanterns after him could beat him.

They also can't exactly afford to let him stay in power, unlike Larfleeze.

Larfleeze was content to stay in Vega, so the Guardians accepted to let him stay there.

This version probably wants to take over and mind control the entire universe, so they have little reason to let him stay in power.

He also lacks the massive resources of the Reach to forge a galactic empire capable of fighting the GLC.

The Reach also had massive armies and Scarab Warriors so the Guardians needed to deal with them in a diplomatic matter or they would lose a lot of manpower. This version doesn't have massive armies of advanced soldiers, or powerful warships or the best anti lantern weapons in the universe, even if he does have a army of metahumans, some spaceships and some advanced tech, the metahumans may not be that powerful or numerous, the spaceships may not be that advanced and the tech may be difficult to replicate even if he has some of the best minds on Earth serving him.

And he may find it more difficult to fight a Guardian as he may lack Larfleezes mindset that allowed him to assimilate a Guardian.

One of Jevek's look-alikes. "How do you intend to remove the Orange Light Fountain from Larfleeze's control? Your equations indicated that after so much direct exposure he will have become even more powerful than he was when he enslaved our brother Ogandu Onna Oslan."

"I'm glad you ask." Hinon raises her right hand and generates… I think that's the Maltus version of Atlantean rune equations. "I won't know for certain until we can observe him directly, but I believe that I have a model for how Larfleeze could survive his experiences, even remaining capable of coherent speech. The most likely possibility is that he had what we might call a natural affinity for avarice, for seeing everything in terms of wants and needs. Without anything very much to get in the way of it, the orange light could form a most intense bond with him. At this point I'm not certain he needs either ring or lantern."

A glimmer from Jevek. "But his link can be severed."

"Yes. With difficulty. Over time. In the short term we're going to attempt to neutralise his capacity to focus his desires on any one object, and so paralyse him. That should enable us to transfer the Light Fountain into a proper Central Power Battery housing."

"And we can control the link. Cut him off."

"Perhaps. Eventually. If we actually want to do that, we'd have to wean him off it and then feed in other colours gradually. It wouldn't be a quick process."

I form an orange gem on my own chest and forehead and flash it before anyone else can get in. "Yes, we do want to. Orange light damage is something we're going to end up having to treat amongst Orange Lanterns. We don't need crazy ones running around the place and making the rest of us look bad. Anything we learn from treating the worst case in existence would be invaluable in that regard."

"If it is inevitable, how did you manage?"

"I didn't-."

"Very weak desires, possibly aided by his lack of an attendant arcane construct. There was so little opportunity for the egress of orange energy that he had nearly enough time to learn to channel it without being overwhelmed." She brings up another chart. Me, presumably. "Then he had a construct created in such a way that it would encourage proper interfacing. Unfortunately, for those future Lanterns not fortunate enough to spend a great deal of time in high magic regions, it won't be practical to use it on others."

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Fighting and beating a single Lantern may be possible for him, even maybe beating a few, but fighting a Guardian, a godlike being that has been connected to the Green Light for billions of years is a whole other thing.

He also didn't need to fight Larfleeze for the CPB, as both paragon and renegade didn't fight him, they just ambushed him while he was sleeping.

Him beating Nabu and Circe can be explained as Nabu is just a helmet without his host and if this version got him when he wasn't on a host then he could assimilate him.

As for Circe, when the link of the tower showed the Metro Tower I thought this was a version of the animated series. The Circe in that series was shown to be just a party girl that liked to mess with Diana, not the one that is trying to kill her in the comics, so she may have less battle experience and it allowed him to beat her. He also could have used assimilated Nabu along with the Left Eye to control her. A Lord of Order and a magic artifact combined with a power ring that specializes in mind control would be enough to control even someone like Circe.

 

[iamnuff]

Huh, until the bit with Diana showing up, this didn't seem too bad.

Sure he's a mind-controlling tyrant, but benevolent tyranny is so interesting. Tweaking people's desires to make them do things that are in their own best interests. To make them better superheroes, or in the case of Circe and her lot, just better people.

I'd love to see a version of OL who just snapped one day and decided that everyone was going to be sensible, whether they liked it or not.

And then he cheerfully explained about the rape-murder.
Ah, oh. Actually evil then.

 

[OrigamiPhoenix]

So this is a universe where he went Maximum Antihero™?

I'd make a 90s comics joke, but this is actually worse than generic guns n' leather and rage.

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Unless this is a reference I'm not getting, he's definitely more of a big and bold Anti-Villain with a pragmatic bent.

Kinda neat to read Vaermina's interpretation of the main story.

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This got me a good chuckle. It almost makes me want to unblock them just to see their reaction.

Doesn't exactly roll off the tongue. What's wrong with Orangeseid? Or Tangseid?

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I vote for Tangseid.

The fuck is the left eye of Zoltec?

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The counterpart to the Right Eye of Zoltec, which makes you invincible. Renegade encountered it back when he was dealing with Evil Britain.
The Left is a mind control device. As another said already, presumably it corrupted this alternate. (Or, you know, just made them worse.)

 

[MadMarx420]

It's always sad to see evil win, hope this Paul eventually gets taken out. Not really a big fan of this Paul, hope we get back to the main Paul soon.

 

[Lazurman]

Not gonna lie, that's kinda hot—and also horrifying at the same time. Pretty sure this is what an endgame QQ Mind Control Quest protagonist in DC would look like.

 

[dogbertcarroll]

A Paul who lacked patience and went with ends justified the means. Yeah, a great character if a horrible person and probably pretty effective on the hero front, much more so than the standard DC universe allows I'd bet.

I wouldn't say he killed the person and made a clone, because then you could claim that for any time anyone changed their mind or priorities to a great degree, he simply brainwashed them changing very little, orange light is effective that way, but the soul remains the same even if the mind doesn't.

 

[Wheenesss]

Zoat introduced an evil version of Paul in an episode whose title sounds like the name of an evil version of Superman.

That may not be a complete coincidence.

In the last episode, that was titled Low Politics, he showed several versions dealing with political issues, like Lord Protector with Thunderan rule and Anti Green with Kaznian safety.

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Excuse you I think you mean GOLD Lantern. That Paul happily smashed the Anti-Green Ring he'd been stuck with.

 

[Galacticplumber]

A Paul who lacked patience and went with ends justified the means. Yeah, a great character if a horrible person and probably pretty effective on the hero front, much more so than the standard DC universe allows I'd bet.

I wouldn't say he killed the person and made a clone, because then you could claim that for any time anyone changed their mind or priorities to a great degree, he simply brainwashed them changing very little, orange light is effective that way, but the soul remains the same even if the mind doesn't.

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One's voluntary on the part of the subject while the other isn't. Do I really need to explain the importance of consent?

 

[dogbertcarroll]

One's voluntary on the part of the subject while the other isn't. Do I really need to explain the importance of consent?

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Oh please do, I always like hearing people talk down to me and virtue signal about things that have nothing to do with my point.

 

[Ace Dreamer]

Left Eye of Zoltec

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Wow. Kelly's Eye, that's really 'retro'.

I'm guessing Evil OL spotted the Left Eye, maybe after it regenerated itself from Diablo getting it broken (artefacts like this tend to do that sort of thing...). But, failed to acquire the Right Eye, which would have been a much better target. Maybe he used the Left Eye to try and get the Right Eye, and got corrupted without realising it? Either of them should be able to recharge an Orange Ring, if you put sunlight through them, or something.

I liked the hint that both Eyes are alien artefacts, so you then get to wonder what alien civilization they might have come from...

Of course, awkward people, like me, might wonder if Zoltec had three Eyes, and what the third Eye might do.

I wouldn't say he killed the person and made a clone, because then you could claim that for any time anyone changed their mind or priorities to a great degree, he simply brainwashed them changing very little, orange light is effective that way, but the soul remains the same even if the mind doesn't.

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There's probably some print-through on to the soul, after the mind has been messed with for long enough. After all, even if the body and mind are lost it's generally assumed the soul retains a copy of the mind, and at least the appearance of the body.

The author Fritz Leiber (better known for fantasy) wrote Conjure Wife, which has a soulless body that wants its soul back. Rather creepy. Old enough you can probably read it online.

 

[rkyeun]

That's the exact opposite of rational, because in the standard DC universes, The Book of Fate dictates that Villains always lose.

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Except guess who ain't in that book.

Meaning, someone with equal or greater skill at altering a persons core desires with the Orange Light could alter them back.

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Yeah, if you knew everything there was to know about them and their desires so you could put it back. Otherwise instead of getting them back, you get your daydream of them.

Well then. Congratulations on managing to combine necrophillia and pedophillia.

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Eh, the body's not dead, the body's of age, and the mind inside is capable of informed consent, just not free will. It's some kind of rape by coercion or brainwashing, just not sure what the actual term is.

Since no one wants to coin a name for this version of Paul,

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Saul. [sarcasm]Yaay[/sarcasm] biblical references.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Still doesn't make him a good person though, but I'm kinda fine with characters being bad people.

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Oh gosh no. Certainly not. But it occurred to me when writing this that an actual utilitarian would be a horrifying person wholly lacking in humanity. They'd have to be in order to function.

The thing that annoyed me about V for Vendetta (the comic) is that while the author claimed that he was presenting a choice between fascism and anarchy, he wasn't. Chancellor Susan starts making an ideological defence of his position and it's a well reasoned and rational one, but its immediately undermined by his next statement. V on the other hand is completely committed and we never see the chaos and starvation his actions will cause. We're shown all of the bad of one viewpoint and all of the good of the other.

The same thing happens in the end of Infamous 2. The protagonist is presented with a decision: take a chance on an unreliable cure for a deadly disease or don't. The cure will kill everyone immune to the disease and maybe cure the rest. Alternately, he can side with the antivillain and guarantee the survival of everyone immune to it at the cost of everyone else. Except... That's not the choice. There's no end sequence where the cure is a failure. The game always assumes that it works perfectly, which is frustratingly intellectually dishonest.

I can think of a great many morality systems that would classify such as more or less the definition of Evil.
Including that of Sir Terry Pratchett.

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The SI used to think that. Then he met people who literally just wanted to watch the world burn.

Grayven is an unrepentant arsehole. However he doesn't inflict much actual damage on undeserving targets.
This morally bankrupt piece of flesh openly admits to having utterly destroyed everyone around him for his own personal benefit.

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I read a book a little while ago with a fully sophont gynoid character. Her decisions would be overridden by a human controller, but only if they said 'activate robot slave mode' in a loud and clear voice. This was because her creator felt that people shouldn't be able to sugar coat what they were doing to an intelligent being.

This SI realised that if he didn't have to deal with egos, he could get humanity into space using its own technology easily. He could eliminate despotic regimes... Yes, by becoming a despot himself, but the majority of the species would still experience a significant benefit.

"Would it be moral to mind control one person to prevent atomic armageddon? Two? Five? How about a large, non-nuclear war? Is the limit simply saving more lives than you take? Because I've done that, and at least ninety nine percent of them were entirely necessary."

A Paul who lacked patience and went with ends justified the means.

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Yes, but the price of patience is paid in the lives of others. It's not quite the same as not being prepared to put the work in.

 

[infinityDivided]

Saul. [sarcasm]Yaay[/sarcasm] biblical references.

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Fairly certain that one's been done.

 

[Diraniola]

They may still be floating in the back of their minds and he just believes he completely got rid of them, so it still may be possible to bring them back.

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If the true OL does cone here to help, I imagine the Honden will be a key part of helping anybody he can. If this version of mind control is based on altering desires, the original may be left dormant in the Honden and give OL a chance to put them back.

 

[rkyeun]

"Happy Pudding" is a thought experiment about an AI designed naively to maximize human happiness, and about a particular branch of utilitarianism.
This AI becomes a form of paperclipper. In order to maximize happiness it cuts away all parts of the brain that it can without destroying its definition of human or happy, to get materials and make room to create more happy humans. The resulting puddings aren't very capable of thought, don't have external senses, don't have a body, but they certainly are happy, having been designed that way and lacking any other parts that make unhappiness. They are happy puddings. The AI then goes on to tile as much of the universe as it can with undecillions of them.

 

[rkyeun]

Fairly certain that one's been done.

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Eaul?

 

[Mr Zoat]

"Happy Pudding" is a thought experiment about an AI designed naively to maximize human happiness, and about a particular branch of utilitarianism.
This AI becomes a form of paperclipper. In order to maximize happiness it cuts away all parts of the brain that it can without destroying its definition of human or happy, to get materials and make room to create more happy humans. The resulting puddings aren't very capable of thought, don't have external senses, don't have a body, but they certainly are happy, having been designed that way and lacking any other parts that make unhappiness. They are happy puddings. The AI then goes on to tile as much of the universe as it can with undecillions of them.

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That's even worse than what CelestAI did in Friendship is Optimal.