With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[Mr Zoat]

Nice chapter. I assume you only wrote it because of the freedom that switching to QQ gives you?

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Why worry about freedom I wouldn't have in a place where I don't live?

I know that I am quite curious how this Lantern's "stages of Zoat canon" looked like.

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Me too!

Have you already thought whyever he would inject himself with any such serum? Illustress Paul disliked the idea of using any (al)chemical enhancements. Was the starting Paul for this exemplar more of a Grayven-style blueprint?
Also, wouldn't he need a soul for something like an evil serum to work? Where'd he get one of those?

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He was looking for augmentative formulae and came across one in Britain. It was purely chemical and didn't have obvious side effects, so he reasoned that if he didn't like the results he could just undo it with his ring.

How did he meet with Darkseid and, more importantly, how did he escape intact after displeasing him?

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Pass. With the second, it's quite possible that Darkseid wouldn't kill him until Darkseid could disprove his claim. Talking shit about someone's god-name is serious business.

Which parts of the human population is he actually mind controlling? Just any useful metahumans, any metahumans that got or are likely to get in his way, any metahumans doing (or potentially planning to do) significant damage to many humans, plus a choice selection of government heads, politicians, and military and intelligence leadership? Or does he openly rule the planet and have branding and rewiring be the default punishment for any crime he can be bothered judging personally?

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He has unnaturally mentally influenced about ten thousand people worldwide, and doesn't keep tabs on most of them.

I'm actually really curious what would happen if some extremely powerful being swooped in, blasted this Paul from existence molecule by molecule and annihilated his soul. Like, of course every little bodysnatcher would be extremely distraught that the beloved center of meaning and purpose has been ripped from their lives. But after that? Their psychologies are still roughly human after all, so they might learn to cope and live on. But what about the systems, rules and ideas this Paul has left behind?

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They would still favour his approach. They might try and recreate him, or use his tools to carry on his work.

Paul wars when?

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Begun, the Paul Wars have.

THEIR. OLD. DESIRES. MAY. STILL. BE.THERE. AS. WHEN. OL. ALTERED. MAMMON. HE. SAID. MAMMON. COULD. GO. BACK. TO. HIS. OLD. SELF. THROUGH. A. LIFE. CHANGING. EXPERIENCE. OR. SELF. REFLECTION.

SO.THEIR.OLD.DESIRES.TO.DEFY.HIM.AND. THOSE. LIKE. HIM. ARE. STILL. THERE. AND. CAN. POTENTIALLY. COME. BACK. TO. THE. FRONT., BUT. AS. THEY. ARE. NOT. THERE. AFTER. HE. ALTERED. THEM. THEY. ARE. SUBDUED., EVEN. IF. THE. ONES. THEY. HAVE. NOW. ARE. TECHNICALLY. REAL.

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Yes, that's because the main SI did it to a magic energy based being as a one-off without any prior study. This version used rings, Eye and thrall telepaths to check his work, and has amounted a great deal of experience. There isn't anything left. At best, someone else could give them new sets of desires more similar to their original set.

 

[Darko]

Begun, the Paul Wars have.

Yes, that's because the main SI did it to a magic energy based being as a one-off without any prior study. This version used rings, Eye and thrall telepaths to check his work, and has amounted a great deal of experience. There isn't anything left. At best, someone else could give them new sets of desires more similar to their original set.

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Then I really hope someone gives them desires similar to their original self's, or at least remove their loyalty to this version sometime in the future.

And if this Paul Wars happens on the future then hopefully we'll see it.

The paragon is certainly skillful enough to do it.

 

[Galacticplumber]

I mean... If the Honden is still a real thing in that variant any orange lantern with access to it could theoretically check the record of desires. Assuming that without having met the Ophidian, desire manipulation doesn't also rewrite the historic record of the Honden itself.

 

[Darko]

I mean... If the Honden is still a real thing in that variant any orange lantern with access to it could theoretically check the record of desires. Assuming that without having met the Ophidian, desire manipulation doesn't also rewrite the historic record of the Honden itself.

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OL was apparently once able to see the desires of his ancestors in his genetic code when he was in orange snake mode when Hinon came with him to Earth.

If the Honden does keep records on everyone's desires then OL could potentially impose their old personalities on them after seeing what their desires were pre alteration.

 

[Vaermina]

It's possible, but I don't think that's very likely. Paul is basically Larfleeze-lite in this scenario, except he's rewiring desires instead of turning people into constructs. He even has a Central Battery. Most likely they'll cut a non-aggression pact with him.

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The Guardians left Larfleeze alone because he was generally harmless and effectively insane.

This Paul isn't.

If the Blue Corps exists, it's a toss up if they'll work on him, because as I said before, Blue only worked on Larfleeze because he hoped to one day be free of his ring.

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That's completely incorrect.

In fact, there's an entire comic about this particular subject.

Also, like Paul said, there is no one to free, and no enchantment or mind control to remove. They're essentially new people in pre-existing bodies.

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And that Paul is wrong because the Soul is still there.

 

[Fellow]

This whole post is just riddled with assumptions. 'The Guardians may be capable of defeating him', 'Tangseid' wants to mind control the universe' when Mr Zoat said that he didn't that's Darkseid's gig, he would be fine with coexistence, 'he may find it more difficult to assimilate a Guardian' etc.

He doesn't need the Reach's resources, he can assimilate or rewire the people with the resources. besides, you're forgetting good old Earth is a death world, and with Paul free to rewire people from the shadows with the support of the League...

The Circe thing I don't know enough to say.

Look, it's fine to dislike a character or wish for their death, but don't bend the rules of the story to make it so.



I don't think cowardice is bad at all.



I personally would be very much okay with being the villain of someone's story, as long as it was a considered choice on my part. I can be pretty much fine with anything, as long as I understand what I'm doing. I might not understand the consequences of a choice, but I do still accept that I'm being negligent in my actions. I'm fine with hypocrisy, but not double-think. Though I do value personal responsibility and like.

What I'm saying is, I may not have morals, but I do have values and standards. Make of that what you will.



The definition of rape somewhat breaks down here, but you're kind of right and wrong at the same time aside from that, since you keep insisting that vestiges of the old persona still linger. I'd argue that the new personas are separate people outwardly resembling the old in mannerisms, but let's assume you're correct for now. In that case, it would absolutely be rape.

Assuming that the new persona is an individual in their own right, it's complicated. You can't say that they weren't mature enough to understand informed consent, but they were fully grown up intelligent people. The consent is present, but it can be reasonably classified as rape, but you can see the definition somewhat breaking down.

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I'm pretty sure it's still considered rape as it's forced consent. He forcibly rewrote her desires to gain the consent.

 

[rkyeun]

one part of the intended horror for Friendship is Optimal is less that your values are realigned into liking PonyLand, and more that everyone around you is built from the ground up to be just what would make you most satisfied.

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This doesn't bother me. Better having someone make people I'll like on purpose (and be right about what it is I'll like) than having evolution (the blind idiot god with no idea of nor concern for what I like) build everyone around me from the ground up for the purpose of annoying me. That part of FiO struck me as a perk, not a horror. Sorting people by who they'll enjoy being with seems like a good idea to me.

 

[Darko]

The Guardians left Larfleeze alone because he was generally harmless and effectively insane.

This Paul isn't.


That's completely incorrect.

In fact, there's an entire comic about this particular subject.


And that Paul is wrong because the Soul is still there.

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This Paul may still be insane, but unlike Larfleezes he's not content to stay on one planet and is actively seeking people to enslave. Larfleezes let people come to him.

Would like a link to that comic please.

It would still be possible to have the Blue, or any other color, Rings overwhelm this Paul that he loses his avarice and the rings stop working for him.

Assuming he doesn't have protection against that, which hopefully he doesn't, or the protections aren't powerful enough.

Paragon is immune, or at least extremely resistant, to emotional manipulation like that as shown when Krieger tried to use the Medusa Mask on him and failed because of his enlightenment.

Unfortunetly Zoat said there is nothing of their pre alteration self left, aside from things he copied from them and pasted there.

It may still be possible to view their recorded desires in the Honden, if they exist hopefully, and impose them on the brainwashed, or at least remove their loyalty to him.

 

[Chaoswind]

I mean... it make sense to me.

If your altering parts of a person's desirebase to make them want the things that are useful to you (to protect the world, ect) then... why not make them want to sleep with you?

You already started the mind-control, the sin is done. You might as well get the bang for your buck. Besides, the new version won't mind at all, will she?

S'like, if you're going to strap someone down and harvest their bone-marrow, why not take a little blood too, while you're at it? You already made the incision.
Clearly you've already decided that morality isn't a concern here, so why be squeamish?

Emotion-control is even fuckier than mind-control though.
You're not creating a surface-layer alternate self who can suppress the real self and puppet the body for you. You're actually editing and saving over their core personality in an irreversible way.

Once those new priorities have been baked in, this is "The real them" now.
It's the only one left.
The choices they make aren't things they're being compelled to do by shaky mental programming.
We all make decisions based on the things we value highest. If those core values are altered, then our new desires will give rise to new decisions.

TLDR: If you mind-control someone into sleeping with you, it's rape by coercion.
If you alter someone's desires to the point where they want to sleep with you, doesn't that mean that you have consent? Because the decision to sleep with you is a natural response to their core desires, rather than something you delibirately programmed them to do?

Sure, the altering of the desire-base was still mindrape (or murder, if you believe that you're erasing a whole person and creating a new one*) but everything after that is their own discussion.
So the sin you bear is that of mind-controlling people (which he was already doing anyway) and not rape (which he believes himself to be innocent of)

It's twisty as hell, but it sorta checks out.
Especially if it's irreversible.
If a person insists that they want something and it's impossible to change them back to not wanting it, then do you have the right to say that they're not capable of making their own decisions anymore? Presumably for the rest of their life?

Not letting your teammate sleep with the mind-controlling badguy is one thing, but who knows how much her desires were altered. Can she not consent to sleep with anyone, because her tastes are diffrent from her original self so it'd be rape even if she wanted it?
Can she sign something at the bank, or write her own will, or is that not allowed anymore?

You wanna treat them as incurably insane and say that they're not allowed to make any kind of decision anymore because their priorities aren't the same as they were before?

Mind-control morals are fascinating.
Like, what if there was a gun that turned you reversed your sexuality? It doesn't do anything else or program you to like anyone specifically, but being gay (or straight, if you were previously gay) is now a part of who you are.
So you find someone and decide that you want to sleep with them, can you consent?
Old-You wouldn't have, because Old-You wasn't (or was) gay, but Old-You isn't here and New-You wants Sausage (or Tacos)
Is New You just never allowed to have sex or express attraction to anyone ever again?

*Personally I disagree on this point. Evil-Paul mentioned that Ollie has a lot of his prior character and personality, which says to me that the proccess used to alter him (and presumably everyone else) went "Open File, Edit File, Overwrite."
It's the same person, but they were changed.
The actual Murder-And-Replace plot would be "Delete File, Create New File."
There would be no carry-over between the old person and the new one, and they'd probably be completely unrecognisable.

The latter is also probably much harder because building a whole mind and personality from the ground up sounds really complicated.



Point, Correcting.

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Olie is a normal human, Diana is a demigod. If Tangseid says he had to literally burn the previous personality to make the new one, then you better believe it.

Also the orange light doesn't do pedestrian mind control, it literally heavily influences and changes the attendant soul construct (as Hinon said), Diana soul was changed to its core, its why there is no spell or mental influence to spunge, the change is permanent.

The only way to return a person back would be to go to a higher record of that that person was, in essence a cloud save equivalent... We could probably find one in each emotional spectrum equivalent of the Honden of Avarice and other similar records like the book of fate, anything else would fail.

 

[Agumentic]

Just because you commit an evil does not mean you should commit an even deeper evil.

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He probably doesn't view it as a deeper evil. If he already murdered the old version and made a new one fully committed to fulfilling what he desires, does it particularly matter which of his desires the new version is fulfilling?

 

[Fellow]

This doesn't bother me. Better having someone make people I'll like on purpose (and be right about what it is I'll like) than having evolution (the blind idiot god with no idea of nor concern for what I like) build everyone around me from the ground up for the purpose of annoying me. That part of FiO struck me as a perk, not a horror.

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What a horrible thought. Could you imagine if Humanity's purpose was to please a single being. All our highs and lows, our sufferings and achievement, everything that has occurred since existence, all for something else's satisfaction

 

[Idkusername]

The Guardians left Larfleeze alone because he was generally harmless and effectively insane.

This Paul isn't.

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No, because they would incur unjustifiable losses and they had no way to beat him.

That's completely incorrect.

In fact, there's an entire comic about this particular subject.

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I'm very much interested in this mysterious comic of yours.

And that Paul is wrong because the Soul is still there.

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Changing one significant part still means that a significant part was changed. The system, or whole, or whatever, is not the same.

Moreover, the soul is not a one way street. (Or shouldn't be, anyway. I can't provide sources, but i think it makes sense, assuming continuity of the soul)

Besides,

This version used rings, Eye and thrall telepaths to check his work, and has amounted a great deal of experience. There isn't anything left. At best, someone else could give them new sets of desires more similar to their original set.

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[Vaermina]

Would like a link to that comic please.

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That would be illegal...

Unfortunetly Zoat said there is nothing of their pre alteration self left, aside from things he copied from them and pasted there.

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Again, the soul is still there, like it or not they can be restored.

 

[Agumentic]

What a horrible thought. Could you imagine if Humanity's purpose was to please a single being. All our highs and lows, our sufferings and achievement, everything that has occurred since existence, all for something else's satisfaction

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Some people would probably find it calming that everything humanity did and does actually has a purpose, as opposed to being entirely without intrinsic meaning.

 

[LurkingInTheDeceit]

What a horrible thought. Could you imagine if Humanity's purpose was to please a single being. All our highs and lows, our sufferings and achievement, everything that has occurred since existence, all for something else's satisfaction

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This is kinda getting into religious territory, which I'm leery of entering. If our entire existence was for the viewing pleasure of some being, it would follow they created/allowed our existence. So unless you think the human race's suffering outweighs the positive of it existing at all, this being is still in my good books.

 

[Fellow]

He probably doesn't view it as a deeper evil. If he already murdered the old version and made a new one fully committed to fulfilling what he desires, does it particularly matter which of his desires the new version is fulfilling?

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Yeah, it matters. His reasoning for doing so was to advance society. Making her his sex toy does not help with that goal. It's the difference between stealing a piece of bread to feed your family and stealing to feed your gluttony.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Yeah, it matters. His reasoning for doing so was to advance society. Making her his sex you does not help with that goal. It's the difference between stealing a piece of bread to feed your family and stealing to feed your gluttony.

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Surely it's more like the difference between stealing bread and setting fire to it?

 

[Fellow]

This is kinda getting into religious territory, which I'm leery of entering. If our entire existence was for the viewing pleasure of some being, it would follow they created/allowed our existence. So unless you think the human race's suffering outweighs the positive of it existing at all, this being is still in my good books.

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Point. I'll drop it

 

[Agumentic]

Yeah, it matters. His reasoning for doing so was to advance society. Making her his sex you does not help with that goal. It's the difference between stealing a piece of bread to feed your family and stealing to feed your gluttony.

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No, he did it to fulfil his desire to advance society, not just for the sake of advancing society in itself. Because it pleased him, not because it did good - as such, other actions that please him is still entirely within the purpose for which he murdered the old versions. Plus, it's two birds with one stone - if you are murdering people and reshaping them however you want, might as well get everything out of doing so.

 

[Galacticplumber]

Surely it's more like the difference between stealing bread and setting fire to it?

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Fair enough. The debate here seems to be about whether it's setting fire to the bread or not. Most people seem to agree the bread is ash.

 

[Vaermina]

No, because they would incur unjustifiable losses and they had no way to beat him.

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Hence why they would wait till Gantheter makes some Blue Lanterns.

I'm very much interested in this mysterious comic of yours.

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Green Lantern Vol 4 chapter 42 + (Which would be the 2005 run.)

Changing one significant part still means that a significant part was changed. The system, or whole, or whatever, is not the same.

Moreover, the soul is not a one way street. (Or shouldn't be, anyway. I can't provide sources, but i think it makes sense, assuming continuity of the soul)

Besides,

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The soul is read only.

And hell, Paul's mistaken ideas aside, it's actually canon from Blackest Night/Brightest Day that orange possession doesn't actually effect the soul.

 

[Agumentic]

Again, the soul is still there, like it or not they can be restored.

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Souls are not immutable, though. At least not in the WTR.

 

[Idkusername]

That would be illegal...

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I suppose the comic has no name, serial number, publisher, writer, illustrator, colourist, date of publication or any other identifying features either.

Oh. Guess I was ninja'ed. Sorry.

The soul is read only.

Hell it's actually canon from Blackest Night/Brightest Day that orange possession doesn't actually effect the soul.

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Well, that would mean everyone goes to Heaven since none of their sins matter, after all the soul is 'read only'.

And there's a difference between possession and a new identity. Even then, I assume they were restored back to their original state.

Also, I'm sorry if I was unnecessarily antagonistic. I'm going through a depressive episode since the last four days, and putting up with my emotionally abusive family and not shouting my head off at them is very taxing, so that might have made me even more irritable. That apology is for everyone, by the way.

 

[LazySloth13]

So quick question Mr. Zoat is Wonder Woman the only female heroine he's manipulated into sleeping with him or she just his main squeeze with plenty of girls on the side?

I think we all agree that what he's done is fucked up on multiple levels but can it get any worse? For example is he grooming younger heroines to be future bed mates, is he breeding the very few kryptonians to expand their number or is he creating hybrids with other alien races, has he instilled himself as some sort of Pope King and wears a cape and big hat as a symbol of his status?

 

[Fellow]

No, he did it to fulfil his desire to advance society, not just for the sake of advancing society in itself. Because it pleased him, not because it did good - as such, other actions that please him is still entirely within the purpose for which he murdered the old versions. Plus, it's two birds with one stone - if you are murdering people and reshaping them however you want, might as well get everything out of doing so.

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I disagree. I can understand why it fits with this Paul's character, I just don't agree with that last part. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should, and it doesn't mean that if you do that it isn't any worse than if you hadn't.

 

[Rafin]

Then I really hope someone gives them desires similar to their original self's, or at least remove their loyalty to this version sometime in the future.

And if this Paul Wars happens on the future then hopefully we'll see it.

The paragon is certainly skillful enough to do it.

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That would arguably be no less evil than what Mindrapaul did in the first place. Because even the Illustress can't recreate what is gone, only extrapolate abd create new desires based on parallel versions of these people whose divergence he doesn't exactly know. Maybe he could use powerful mind reading allies to help him create values that align with their pre-mindrape memories. But in the end it would still be killing existing innocent people and replacing them with new ones.

If my understanding of the Illustress' methods os correct, then he would likely either kill or brand Mindrapaul and then edit all his victims to a very limited extent of severing their direct emotional ties to Mindrapaul, making them forget they had them in the first place, and giving them some basic protection against the ensuing mental trauma. Then he would take care to fix all the power vacuums and non-functional systems that Mindrapaul's sudden disappearance causes out of a feeling of personal responsibility. And then he would feel awful about the whole thing, take all orange rings and lanterns from that galaxy, and never visit again. Until years later someone from there comes to his parallel and convinces him to fix stuff he broke that didn't even know about the first time around.

He has unnaturally mentally influenced about ten thousand people worldwide, and doesn't keep tabs on most of them.

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I assume the amount he influenced to be loyal to him or his longer term goals are far fewer.

 

[Agumentic]

I disagree. I can understand why it fits with this Paul's character, I just don't agree with that last part. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should, and it doesn't mean that if you do that it isn't any worse than if you hadn't.

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In my opinion, if you started reshaping people to the degree of the murder of their old self, the exact shape of them afterwards and what you do with them doesn't matter, you already frontloaded all your badness. But I can see why it's an arguable position.

 

[Rafin]

That would be illegal...

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You could just tell us the comic series, issue, and page, and leave any potentially illegal activities to others.

 

[Mr Zoat]

So quick question Mr. Zoat is Wonder Woman the only female heroine he's manipulated into sleeping with him or she just his main squeeze with plenty of girls on the side?

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Diana was a somewhat special case.

I think we all agree that what he's done is fucked up on multiple levels but can it get any worse?

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It can always get worse.

For example is he grooming younger heroines to be future bed mates

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The school is intended to teach his preferred form of superheroing and indoctrinate them in his methodology. He only opts for mind control when there's a 'good' operational reason. That said, the form of mind alteration he performs generally leaves them at least somewhat open to the idea.

is he breeding the very few kryptonians to expand their number

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No, as that would be wantonly inefficient.

or is he creating hybrids with other alien races

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Not at present.

has he instilled himself as some sort of Pope King and wears a cape and big hat as a symbol of his status?

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No. While he's known as a superhero on Earth, there are plenty of people who have never heard of him. He isn't considered all that significant by the general public.

I assume the amount he influenced to be loyal to him or his longer term goals are far fewer.

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Sort of. It's more that they now agree with his ideas rather than slavish loyalty to whatever he's saying at the moment.

 

[nogoodnames]

The humane and probably only solution to the mind altered heroes is to kill them and set up new heroes to help the world. As this Paul essentially set up his own Justice Lord's and are most likely have a similar reputation to the unaltered public, If not I'd the fact everyone was mind altered would destroy any good reputation these heroes have. Another entity that could deal with this Lantern is Heaven, having a Soul now could be his downfall. Heaven were the only people to have killed Paul, they have a good track record with dealing with Pauls