With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[Chaoswind]

Seems like a far more plausible explanation, honestly.




You're both missing the point. The fact of the matter is that Sinestro-ring has proven that it can leave Grayven whenever it wants, yet it still chooses to stay with him even when he uses his orange ring instead. And yes, he was using both of them at the exact same time at some point, because both of these rings had their basic manual functions (like the scans or the environmental force field shield) fully available and active at all times when Grayven was wearing them, which requires their respective emotions to be used at minimum. Ergo, Grayven was using both fear and avarice at the same time.

Also, there's still the matter of the white light. The white light requires all colors to be used and an ecstatic desire to live, so if one person needs to use a white lantern ring, they would have to somehow be able to channel all emotions at once while also feeling incredibly ecstatic at the prospect of life itself (which Zoat himself has described as being incredibly rare). This also wouldn't be possible either if the colors/emotions weren't compatible with each other.

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Grayven also cheats by being a newgod and having his soul initially 'rebuild' with the aid of the orange light and fatherbox using OG grayven scans as templates. Then his soul was repaired with orange light, yellow light and violet light and reinforced and stabilized with a pure friendship and raw harmony blast.


Grayven isn't enlightened like some of the other Pauls, but he is cheating and is not representative of what non cheating Pauls can achieve.

 

[CrazyNoVa]

Grayven also cheats by being a newgod and having his soul initially 'rebuild' with the aid of the orange light and fatherbox using OG grayven scans as templates. Then his soul was repaired with orange light, yellow light and violet light and reinforced and stabilized with a pure friendship and raw harmony blast.


Grayven isn't enlightened like some of the other Pauls, but he is cheating and is not representative of what non cheating Pauls can achieve.

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That doesn't matter. You forget that Paragon Paul's soul is made of pure orange light, yet that doesn't prevent him from using rings of other colors (like how he used Ghiata's ring), so there is no reason why Grayven can't use other colors either. The composition of one's soul and physical body does not impact one's ability to use a power ring.

 

[Ryumancer]

Should this really be in orange instead of red?

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"I want this guy dead because he's a backstabbing dumbass, and has proven that he'll continue to be a backstabbing dumbass if given the opportunity" is potentially rather orange, yeah.

 

[Mr Zoat]

To the best of my recollection, Grayven only actively used one ring at a time.

 

[Steelplaza]

Wait, what? How does that even make sense? We've seen other orange Pauls try to either inflict or feel those emotions, and they were fine. Why is this specific Paul having this problem?

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Paul aside, we have seen other Orange Lanterns in this story have an issue where when they feel a strong emotion that is not Avarice their ring shuts down.

Here, I did a quick search and Paul is demonstrating to one of his recruits how a fear of having her wing cut off will make the shield construct she created to protect it collapse.

My sword flies towards her right wing, her eyes widening and armoured cowl collapsing as it stops a millimetre from the flesh of her ulnare.

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[CrazyNoVa]

Paul aside, we have seen other Orange Lanterns in this story have an issue where when they feel a strong emotion that is not Avarice their ring shuts down.

Here, I did a quick search and Paul is demonstrating to one of his recruits how a fear of having her wing cut off will make the shield construct she created to protect it collapse.

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Yeah, but that lantern is a noob. Paul has more experience than her. And Jannissary Paul has more experience too.

To the best of my recollection, Grayven only actively used one ring at a time.

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What about passively, then? I mean the basic functions like flight, scanning and environmental shields. Don't you need to feel the corresponding emotions to make use of them? If so, wouldn't that mean Grayven was using both fear and desire at the same time, since we saw him use those functions while he was wearing the two rings? Plus, by your own rules, if he didn't have enough yellow in him at all times, wouldn't Sinestro-ring have ditched Grayven sooner?

 

[Steelplaza]

Yeah, but that lantern is a noob. Paul has more experience than her. And Jannissary Paul has more experience too.

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You notice that Janissary's ring did not in fact shut down. What happened was that he had a brief flashback to a time when he was a noob when he screwed up and the ring shut down, and this time he carefully didn't let that happen.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Yeah, but that lantern is a noob. Paul has more experience than her. And Jannissary Paul has more experience too.

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Not in combat. He's mostly been building stuff while people cheer him on. It's far less stressful and requires different mental skills.

What about passively, then? I mean the basic functions like flight, scanning and environmental shields. Don't you need to feel the corresponding emotions to make use of them? If so, wouldn't that mean Grayven was using both fear and desire at the same time, since we saw him use those functions while he was wearing the two rings?

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No, he uses one or the other. Focusing on one causes the other to recede or shut off.

Plus, by your own rules, if he didn't have enough yellow in him at all times, wouldn't Sinestro-ring have ditched Grayven sooner?

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Sinestro ditched Grayven because there was a better bearer available. Yes, in theory he could fly off at any time, but Sinestro is capable of reason and knows that in the long run it's hard to find a better bearer than Grayven.

 

[Vaermina]

You do realize that the canon of this story is based on the lore from the comics, right?

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Only in the loosest sense, and Mr Zoat has added a handful of new capabilities onto Power Rings for his story.

Has it even been mentioned how he was recharging it at all? There'd be no personal lantern in the image comics universe.

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Yes, he was recharging off of some fixed bit of biological supertech that he discovered at one of the wrecked bases on his world.

 

[thebishop8]

No, he uses one or the other. Focusing on one causes the other to recede or shut off.

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I can't remember if there are any other examples, but he seems to use both at the same time when fighting Mordru.

I'm knocked off my feet, dismissing the snake-eaten shield as I go and raising another to replace it. The sensation of pain cuts out as the fire around me finally fails. I raise my left hand- "Assimilate!" -and an orange beam flicks out from the orange ring, only to decay into nothing a good metre from Mordru's skin.

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I bring my left arm up and generate a new shield while pulling my daiklave into my left hand.

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Two guns appear on my forearms, one a singularity projector and the other a bleed overlay cannon.

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I could see ways to explain the first and third examples, but not the second.

 

[Mr Zoat]

13th July 2013
12:35 GMT -5

I stare into the depths of my pint glass, watching the bubbles making up the foam on the head gradually burst. On the television in the corner of the room Batman is introducing the first few Global Peace Agency officers to a broadly positive reception, both from the audience and from the few people in the bar watching it.

National sports leagues haven't really restarted yet. They could, in theory, but the money isn't there to pay the participants what they're accustomed to so there have only been a few exhibition games.

"Hey."

I don't look up.

"Miss Grant. How can I help you?"

"Depends. How many of those have you had?"

My eyes ascend to the top of the glass. "Looks like about half of one."

"According to the social media posts I've been following, you got here three hours ago."

"I like to nurse my drinks." I sit up and turn to face her. "I've never really been drunk before. I don't think I'm doing it right."

"Never?"

I shake my head. "The closest I ever got was 'tipsy', and all that really happened was that I went to bed early. Didn't even have a headache the next day."

She frowns. "What brought this on?"

"Political legitimacy."

"Are you a secret political science major?"

"Philosophy."

"Want me to get you some laudanum, then?"

"Best you didn't." I pick up my glass and take a sip, the twenty or so minutes since my last one not having noticeably improved the taste. "You know… How, originally, the Vice President was the person who came second in the Presidential Election?"

"And it got changed almost immediately because no one wants to work with the guy they just campaigned against?"

"Right, but… You've got an ideal, and everyone shares it, and you might disagree about what the best way to realise it is, but you're all working to the same goal… And then someone comes along and says 'I've got a new ideal'…"

"The U.S. Constitution can be changed."

I shake my head. "That's just top tier laws. I'm talking about something fundamental. The assumption that people have rights and as such there are things a state must do and things that it cannot do. And within that paradigm you can disagree about what those rights are and how far they extend… But that faith in intangible rights is the same."

"… Just half?"

"Philosophy degree. But then I look at Greater Kahndaq, right? Adom wanted a democratic system that he could oversee in a… Hands off sort of way. And then Mannheim sent in robots to murder most of the people who could make that work so he ended up needing to make a far more centralised state. There's still… Voting, but it's more of a test to see whether appointed officials have enough popular support locally to do their jobs, rather than a source of independently minded representatives. Their constitution guarantees a few things to its citizens, but it's more procedural rather than a high-minded metaphysical claim. Like… 'So that we may best enact good order and public safety, citizens will receive fair trials'. Rather than 'citizens have an innate right to fair trials'."

"And when the Anti-Life broadcast happened, barely any Kahndaqis died. Because Adom could use his magic to shield them. And obviously, that's not something any elected politicians could do. You can't vote Anti-Life away, so..."

I smile unhappily.

"How did the Ron Jeremy sketch go? 'All men are created equal? What bullshit'. So maybe my problem is that I'm working with outdated schema? My expectations are wrong?"

She waits a moment to see if I'm going to ramble about anything else. When nothing else comes out she sits down next to me. "Is this about the Justice League taking over the world?"

A burst of laughter escapes my lips, then I lean forwards until my forehead touches the surface of the bar.

"'Taking'? Well, I can't talk about that, but it looks like I don't need to."

I… Straighten back up… Most of the way.

"And Accalacan didn't do as well as Kahndaq, but they did pretty well. Short supply lines, dispersed population… They didn't get any city boss equivalents. And I… I want people to have the opportunity to improve themselves, but maybe people don't want to? Do you know what s-? High school attainment rates are like in the U.S.? How many people, living in an advanced society, can't read that well? People from a hundred years ago would kill for that opportunity, and a lot of people today just can't be bothered? So maybe people don't want that."

"Ah… Don't want to read?"

"Don't want to push themselves. And think about how many people don't bother voting in elections. I know there's an assumption in the United States that people are put off voting if they don't think it will make a difference, you know, if a place always returns a candidate from a particular party. But maybe they don't care? Maybe one person in power is pretty much like another at such a deep psychological level that it's a fools errand to try and engage… A lot of people. Maybe it's not the party but the decisions they decide they can't really affect… Whoever they vote for, and that's what turns them off."

"I guess? Are you okay?"

I gesture to her with both hands. "I mean… Would you prefer a sweet merchant, or a dentist?"

"I… Guess that depends what for?"

"No, no, no. It's a thing from Ancient Greek philosophy. The guy was arguing against democracy, on the grounds that people will always vote for someone who gives them nice-tasting food over someone who stabs holes in their mouth for a living. Most… Modern democracies don't have qualifications beyond 'is a citizen' and 'isn't in prison', but the Greeks had other requirements, Rhodesia had other requirements and even the Founding Fathers discussed a property requirement before deciding against it. So… Adom rules Kahndaq, and there's no point giving people the opportunity to vote against him because, one, they wouldn't, and two, even if they did, there isn't anyone else who could do what he does."

"So are we getting to a point where the well-know flaws in democracy have… Reached the point where human civilisation needs something radically different? Where..? Some other form of legitimacy is..? Coming to the fore? Should I be working towards bringing about meritocratic rule instead of trying to make new opportunities available to a broader base? I can, it would be a lot simpler once I had a way of identifying the best motivated people in the population. I hadn't done that… Other than sharing things with self-selecting people who can use them now to make it easier to get results, but my intent was always to move to something with mass appeal."

"Is this about the Global Peace Agency? The Justice League's police officers?"

"Yes. Or… Maybe 'no' but it comes from the same place. Batman is the best detective on the planet. What does holding him accountable to a body far less capable than him do except waste his time? Or Superman? 'Accounts audit? Sure, I guess those Nepalese villagers can just dig themselves out of that mudslide.' And when we have telepaths and truth lassos, we don't need systems to ensure that people are staying trustworthy because we can directly test it in advance."

"Maybe oligarchy is the way to go." I shrug with both hands. "Maybe it is. Maybe I've been on a hiding to nothing. But I can't help but feel a bit despondent about it."

 

[Mr Zoat]

I can't remember if there are any other examples, but he seems to use both at the same time when fighting Mordru.

I could see ways to explain the first and third examples, but not the second.

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Gosh darn it, past me. Why do you always have to make my life difficult?

In that case, duel wielding is possible if you've got exactly the right mindset, but your constructs are going to be significantly weaker.

 

[Lazurman]

Damn. You can really taste the bitter depression.

 

[Thundersmight94]

I will say about OL's argument I do think it does make less sense to have a justice system in a world where you could spend time figuring out how to mass produce a lasso of truth like object to be able to be used in courts to determine if someone is innocent or guilty of a crime. There wouldn't be a need for lawyers, only judges or maybe juries to determine the length of the punishment for the crime.
Since OL is so cozy with Greek Gods, you could get Themis & Nemesis to preside over cases and use their power to force people to tell the truth and maximize the proper punishment.

 

[Ngamer11]

"Miss Grant. How can I help you?"

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Is there any specific reason why Cat Grant is the one talking to Paul rather than anyone actually close to him?

"So are we getting to a point where the well-know flaws in democracy have… Reached the point where human civilisation needs something radically different? Where..? Some other form of legitimacy is..? Coming to the fore? Should I be working towards bringing about meritocratic rule instead of trying to make new opportunities available to a broader base? I can, it would be a lot simpler once I had a way of identifying the best motivated people in the population. I hadn't done that… Other than sharing things with self-selecting people who can use them now to make it easier to get results, but my intent was always to move to something with mass appeal."

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That should say 'known'.

 

[boo600]

Gosh darn it, past me. Why do you always have to make my life difficult?

In that case, duel wielding is possible if you've got exactly the right mindset, but your constructs are going to be significantly weaker.

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To be fair, he's a New God with a domain - Conquest - that works reasonably well with both Fear and Avarice. Maybe he was cheating - not as hard as a NG like Orion could with Rage, but enough to bend a few Absolute Rules.

 

[The Froggy Ninja]

I will say about OL's argument I do think it does make less sense to have a justice system in a world where you could spend time figuring out how to mass produce a lasso of truth like object to be able to be used in courts to determine if someone is innocent or guilty of a crime. There wouldn't be a need for lawyers, only judges or maybe juries to determine the length of the punishment for the crime.
Since OL is so cozy with Greek Gods, you could get Themis & Nemesis to preside over cases and use their power to force people to tell the truth and maximize the proper punishment.

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Eh, you might still want lawyers to determine whether and to what degree something is against the law, and maximizing punishment has historically failed to significantly deter crime. I don't think even Paul could convince Nemesis to switch to a rehab model of Justice.

 

[Cool10007]

Stellar dialogue there, Zoat- I can't wait for the transcript of this conversation to break world news and cause more headaches for the JL

 

[ForeverShogo]

For a way to explain why Invincipaul's ring went wonky when he tried to promote fear . . . You could just say that it was a clash of intent with desire? That even if he went in intending to use fear to keep people in line so they wouldn't be killed, he didn't really want to do that and the dissonance was severe enough to impact his ring's functions.

===

Also, for that thing about the ability of the average person to read . . . That's actually quite common in pretty much every country. (Though there are some overachievers, like Finland.) It's not that they're illiterate. Most people in developed nations are perfectly capable of reading things just fine. It's more reading comprehension that suffers. The OECD breaks it down into levels. From below level 1 to level 4 and above. The United States is, plus or minus some points per level, in line with the world average. (Which is effectively 50% of any given nation's population being at Level 2 or lower.)

For reference . . . Level 2 literacy means they can read, but have a hard time synthesizing knowledge from multiple sources, inferring things that weren't explicitly stated in the text, or getting the information they need from sources that weren't intended to provide that information.

But if it makes you feel better, the French are worse than America. And really, all English speaking peoples should come together as a family and partake in that time-honored tradition. Shitting on the French whenever possible.

 

[Bigking321]

As far as truth lassos go, there would still need to be more investigation to confirm things.

Someone could tell the truth with the lasso, think that they were completely guilty of the crime and feel horrible about it, and then it's found out that they were set up. Someone else set up the situation and is actually guilty while the other just honestly thinks it's their fault.

So lassos could absolutely make information gathering easier and get confessions easily. But they only confirm what the person thinks is the truth. Not what the truth actually is.