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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Reader mode
Hmm, I still don't know what episode it was actually in, but given what Paul says at the beginning of this episode...

Vaermina said:
Paul found out about it when he was told about the First returned to life as a human.
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You're probably right here, both Grayven and Paul know about the sword reincarnating, my bad.
 
helios said:
I wouldn't say no jury. If I were on the jury I'd be advocating pretty hard for a guilty verdict. All it takes is the right jury full of people who share my viewpoint.
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At which point the judge would overule your verdict due to the clear mitigating circumstances of her not being in her right mind and not fully in control of her own actions due to the forced reincarnation, the demonic binding ritual that forced her into Linda, and the effects of Linda's mental corruption on her own faculties.

Also you're kind of forgetting public prosecutor vs best lawyers church money can buy.
 
Bramble Thorn said:
His his spoken accent it makes you type words with the wrong spelling?
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Huh?
Wow, that's cockney.
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Your grammar is cockney.
Yes. However, the US doesn't seem to recognise anyone as an enemy soldier when the attack is on US soil. They get classified as an illegal combatant and no protection given to armed forces apply. So I don't think being a deputized agent of a foreign government/non-state religion actually matters.
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Jon Horne doesn't hold with any of that baloney.
...wait. Where they geographically when she attacked him? If this was during the battle where the Ice Fortress was destroyed, that was probably in international waters and an act of piracy. And with OL being an citizen of Themyscira, that might be where a trial should properly occur.
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I think it's the last port the ship called at, which would probably be New York.
 
Vaermina said:
At which point the judge would overule your verdict due to the clear mitigating circumstances of her not being in her right mind and not fully in control of her own actions due to the forced reincarnation, the demonic binding ritual that forced her into Linda, and the effects of Linda's mental corruption on her own faculties.

Also you're kind of forgetting public prosecutor vs best lawyers church money can buy.
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Except the prosecutor might be either OL or Idol, in which case, they're probably as good as most any hired lawyer (for the sake of plot convenience at that point).
 
helios said:
I wouldn't say no jury. If I were on the jury I'd be advocating pretty hard for a guilty verdict. All it takes is the right jury full of people who share my viewpoint.
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ok so hypothetically you are on the jury in the context of this story. You KNOW hell is real you Know God is real and you KNOW demons are evil and a fallen angel was attempting to redeem herself by killing demons/demon worshipers who could be about to cause another Fawcett city and you still go for a guilty verdict? are you an actual demon worshipper IRL or something?
 
Vaermina said:
At which point the judge would overule your verdict due to the clear mitigating circumstances of her not being in her right mind and not fully in control of her own actions due to the forced reincarnation, the demonic binding ritual that forced her into Linda, and the effects of Linda's mental corruption on her own faculties.

Also you're kind of forgetting public prosecutor vs best lawyers church money can buy.
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You are forgetting about the possibility of her pleading "guilty" in order to atone for her actions.
 
Bramble Thorn said:
Yes. However, the US doesn't seem to recognise anyone as an enemy soldier when the attack is on US soil.
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Paul flying fortress isn't the US soil, and it wasn't even flying over US soil at the time.

I am with Vaermina on this one, there are so many mitigating circumstances in this mess that I doubt Noriel would even be sentenced to community service let alone jail time, all that would happen after the trial (that won't be conducted) is that whoever was involved in charging Noriel would lose their career and Paul would get fairly negative PR out of the deal.
 
Chaoswind angels advocate.

Case points.

Noriel is an angel that was made fallen not by her sins, but by a stab of Paul using a demonic weapon. Guilty verdict chance 5%

Noriel is a woman/girl. Guilty verdict chance - 5% IE no one will even charge her.

Noriel attempted to burn demon worshipers, but was also most likely mentally influenced into the attack by the demon worshipper that wanted to get rid of evidence. As per the canon example of the trial results of the Cadmus researchers that is an innocent verdict almost by default. Chances of being allowed to walk out of custody in a matter of days if not hours 100%.


The attack Noriel carried against Paul was:

Against a legal target, the angels had even announced to the world their intent to Punish a sinner (terms of declaration of intent in the international courts could even apply, like the US seeking to punish snowden for breaking US law, if the US catch Snowden in international waters then the guy is fucked by default, the same would be applying in these circumstances as Paul at the time was an acknowledged criminal under the eyes of heaven and he was over international waters) and for all intents and purposes the guy that fights evil using GREED is certainly an adequate target and angels wouldn't have reason to suspect they were working under unlawful orders.

Paul fortress was flying over international waters and is considered property of themesira, themesira isn't a signatory of any of the freedom of navigation charters so there is no crime taking place under international law.

Noriel isn't going to be charged with ANYTHING, and will be allowed to walk post haste, the ONLY chance Paul has to make her face some sort of legal censure is to try her in the courts of Themesira for helping destroy the property of a citizen and minor MALE hero... And good LUCK with that considering Noriel is a woman.


In short there is absolutely NOTHING to see here, nothing at all.
 
AidanMorgan said:
Isn't Icon a defense attorney? And Paul not on the bar at all because he's neither a US citizen nor interested in attending law school?
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I believe he's a corporate lawyer in the comics (and on his home planet he was a Judge), and that YJ never went into details on his earthly career as far as I'm aware.

He acted as a defense attorney on an alien planet when the JL was on trial, perhaps that's what your thinking of?

Although now I'm picturing Kate Spencer showing up in this story. Although since the Darkstars are still around it's either too early for her vigilante career, or she'll have to get another armor. She's the granddaughter of Iron Monroe.

The Danner formula did weird things to her family. All the men in her family inherited superhuman strength and durability, but Kate herself has borderline superstrength and durability, if not just comic book/cinematic action hero "let's pretend this is possible without superpowers," which implies that somehow inheriting Danner formula effects is a sex linked trait.
 
More asshole angels. Why are 90% of angels complete assholes.

Listen genderless guy I don't care if you think you sang the universe into being, I time traveled and saw a giant hand. There wasn't any singing, or air for sound to move through.
 
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DAT_NOOB said:
ok so hypothetically you are on the jury in the context of this story. You KNOW hell is real you Know God is real and you KNOW demons are evil and a fallen angel was attempting to redeem herself by killing demons/demon worshipers who could be about to cause another Fawcett city and you still go for a guilty verdict? are you an actual demon worshipper IRL or something?
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No, but i am a misotheist.
 
Zig said:
"I was only following orders: isn't a defense, it's a confession.
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That has absolutely nothing to do with anything.


Heaven announced to the world/the international community that Paul was a criminal.

Paul was intercepted in international waters on board a vessel of a country that isn't a signatory to any of the treaties and provisions related to freedom of Navigation.

Paul didn't seek Asylum with any polity of earth, at best he went to seek Asylum in HELL.

2+2+2

As much as Paul may dislike how he was killed there is absolutely nothing wrong in the sequence of events as far as all the countries not named Themesira are concerned.


Stop letting the PoV bias blind you guys to what is self evident, Noriel isn't guilty of much of anything as far as the known facts are concerned, even her illegal immigrant status has the caveat that she didn't come to the US willingly (so Paul is a human trafficker now).
 
DrThoth said:
It disappoints me that most other characters don't emulate him, though I can understand their reasons in most cases.
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My favorite example of how this sort of thing can go badly wrong is in early Superman. Superman was going around solving social issues all the time when his creators were working on him. And at one point, he beats up foreign athletes for making anti-American comments. (They were spies, but he didn't know it, so that didn't justify it.) The creators of Superman, with the best of intentions, had Superman do something downright fascist, all in the name of using his superpowers to better society rather than just catching criminals, and it went completely unnoticed at the time. That's why you don't want superheroes to go around remaking society unless they have a lot of humility about what they're doing and limit it to nonviolent methods like providing technology.
 
Vaermina said:
Yea... Paul... No prosecutor in the US is going to charge her... And even if Paul somehow finds one willing to destroy their career by doing so... No Jury would convict her...
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So...if Zoat writes a prosecutor charging her, and then a jury convicts her, what then? Tell us once more how Zoat will be wrong with his own shit, oh all knowing one.

Mquz said:
Doesn't matter - she's still an angel, so a lot of people will say she did right no matter what. The Southern US is religious like that.
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While I can confirm that Religious in the US, southern or not, are pretty insane (often murderously so) that's not quite what matters. This IS Earth 16 and things could be different.

If Zoat writes it, than that's how it is.

I'd convict her in a heartbeat. "I was just following orders" didn't work with the Nazi's and it ain't working now. Not to mention when the Silver City murdered U.S citizens on U.S soil. Ted's resurrection notwithstanding.
 
DAT_NOOB said:
ok so hypothetically you are on the jury in the context of this story. You KNOW hell is real you Know God is real and you KNOW demons are evil and a fallen angel was attempting to redeem herself by killing demons/demon worshipers who could be about to cause another Fawcett city and you still go for a guilty verdict? are you an actual demon worshipper IRL or something?
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I also KNOW that all the other God's are real, which is interesting in and of itself. So why would I believe that the Middle Eastern Hebrew flavored magical sky daddy has precedence?

Because he can? Might makes right? I've read his book, he's a downright evil fuck when he wants to be. Between his abuse of his creations and the fact that he admits to genociding the entire human race, minus the one family he liked apparently. (Of course, many other cultures had boats and such but that's not the point.) I see little difference between this "god" and his supposed evil counterpart "satan."
 
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Maxx Crowley said:
I also KNOW that all the other God's are real, which is interesting in and of itself. So why would I believe that the Middle Eastern Hebrew flavored magical sky daddy has precedence?

Because he can? Might makes right? I've read his book, he's a downright evil fuck when he wants to be. Between his abuse of his creations and the fact that he admits to genociding the entire human race, minus the one family he liked apparently. (Of course, many other cultures had boats and such but that's not the point.) I see little difference between this "god" and his supposed evil counterpart "statan."
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Unfortunately the sunk cost fallacy is a thing and people are averse to having their mental models of the world's structural integrity violated by a sledgehammer.
Though you obviously know this as you are intelligent.
 
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Mr Zoat said:
No, his evil counterpart is 'Satan'. Statans prevent cardiovascular disease.
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Thank you, corrected.

Of course, the fact that "The Satan" was originally portrayed as the divine prosecutor who worked for yahweh....well pop culture fucks shit up I guess.

The Unaligned Player said:
Unfortunately the sunk cost fallacy is a thing and people are averse to having their mental models of the world's structural integrity violated by a sledgehammer.
Though you obviously know this as you are intelligent.
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Honestly? I have a hard time believing that a world populated by as many Demi-gods as a DC earth is (Your average metahuman is basically a demi-god) would be half as religious as Earth prime.
 
Mr Zoat said:
No, his evil counterpart is 'Satan'. Statans prevent cardiovascular disease.
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Statins not 'statans'

Also an angel especially one that would want to repent should admit that they killed humans unjustly under manipulation of an angel that Fell.
 
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