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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Reader mode
If I didn't know how awful he was I would pity the old man, it is just not fun picking on powerless old people. Granted he was made powerless but still.

Also I wonder who gets to keep demi-plane full of magical items? I hope Paul plans to split it and hand stuff out.
 
Buggy123 said:
Agreed. Breaking into someones residence and violently awakening and restraining them would prompt a violent response/defense from any reasonable person.

Now, granted, some rather suspect things have happened in his home. But still.
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Oh, yea, they also stole his stuff.

They really should have waited on that till he pulled out a weapon. Because now he can argue that he was going to pull out something like a cane to help him walk or maybe a medical artifact since "do you require assistance and a wheelchair" was what OL asked him about when it occurred.

Which basically means a court ordered return of his property.

And just to head something off, he's been sleeping for 40,000 years, which means the legality of those items is grandfather clause protected.

Unlikely, I'd say. Long term, maybe, but for short term, precedent is that no one gives a second glance to harm/injury/negative health effects caused by restraining techniques used during arrest. Long term, it would probably come down to a argument of risk of flight/attack, and he hasn't been particularly cooperative so far.
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Keep in mind that they only identified themselves as having any legal authority after he waved his hand at them.




FeepingCreature said:
Just because the gun isn't loaded doesn't mean that pointing it at you and pulling the trigger isn't attempted murder. So long as the method is credible, intent rules.
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Except that loaded gun is identical to a hand wave and you need to be able to prove that it was a gun and not just a hand wave.

And there's no such thing as a right to damage other people's health to sustain yourself, period, no matter how minor.
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It was already established in story that at a low level life energy draining will only make a person a little tired so arguing that it meaningfully damages a persons health is a rather loosing battle.

But even if it did, it would be easy enough to find volunteers who would do so for small amounts of money or even free out of pity.
 
Vaermina said:
Which he wouldn't serve anyways because he has a self defense claim due to you breaking into his place of residence and violently waking him up.
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Buggy123 said:
Agreed. Breaking into someones residence and violently awakening and restraining them would prompt a violent response/defense from any reasonable person.
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US courts are very permissive when it comes to letting police officers go wherever they want in the pursuit of an ongoing investigation. They also tend to be very skeptical of self defense claims against police officers. This is particularly the case when the suspect is recorded as saying that he intends to kill and eat the officer in question. Moreover, Connecticut law does not permit self defense claims when resisting an unlawful arrest except in cases of excessive force. Where 'excessive force' is defined as being more force than a reasonable police officer, in that situation, would feel is necessary. At the time, all OL had done was stick anti-magic cuffs on Mr. Gotham. That would be very easy to argue as a reasonable level of force against a known magic user.

E: As for taking his things, the part of the Justice League charter authorizing affiliates to confiscate dangerous magical artifacts is apparently very broadly worded. Strega could apply to have them returned at a later date, but that'd be after he's out of prison, assuming he finds a willing life force donor, gets permission to perform the transfer and thereby survives his inevitable term in prison.
 
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Grek said:
US courts are very permissive when it comes to letting police officers go wherever they want in the pursuit of an ongoing investigation. They also tend to be very skeptical of self defense claims against police officers. This is particularly the case when the suspect is recorded as saying that he intends to kill and eat the officer in question. Moreover, Connecticut law does not permit self defense claims when resisting an unlawful arrest except in cases of excessive force. Where 'excessive force' is defined as being more force than a reasonable police officer, in that situation, would feel is necessary. At the time, all OL had done was stick anti-magic cuffs on Mr. Gotham. That would be very easy to argue as a reasonable level of force against a known magic user.
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You're forgetting something important, they aren't actual police officers.

And they didn't even identify themselves as having any authority to arrest Doctor Gotham until after he waved his hand at them.

Also don't forget that that's not all Orange Lantern did, he smashed open what would legally be considered a magical cryogenic unit, that he could not scan inside, using a deadly weapon.

It would be very easy to argue reckless endangerment there.
 
Er, one of the first things Doctor Mister Gotham said was "Ah. Well, in that case I'm going to have to kill you and use your life force to restore her. Nothing personal, but I've woken up early and I'm rather hungry." (underline for emphasis). I think that is probably sufficient evidence for "attempted murder" in most states.

Thanks
Luc "Subtly Obvious" French
 
And you're all forgetting that this is DC, where excessive violence against criminals is the norm. That means there are probably specific laws that allow vigilante action under specific circumstances. Real life laws don't apply. Don't argue politics.
 
Honestly, I would think that Dr Gotham could overpower a chain that can suppress a lord of order.

The impression I got is that being a lord of order or chaos, when it comes to magic power, is like water out of a hose. It's not that they can use all the power at once, but rather that the power is effectively infinitely renewable.

Dr Gotham, from what I remember, has like tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of magical artifacts in his timelord trenchcoat, which he taps for magic like a magic the gathering player tapping land.

I would therefore while his magic reserve isn't infinitely renewable, I see no reason why he couldn't tap as many of those artifacts as he needs for the task at hand.

In DnD 3x terms, Lords are like warlocks, they can cast their spells 24/7 without their mojo going dry, but I would think that Dr Gotham would be like a psion- His mojo runs out, but he can "go nova" by spending all of his mojo at once.
 
Stsword said:
Honestly, I would think that Dr Gotham could overpower a chain that can suppress a lord of order.

The impression I got is that being a lord of order or chaos, when it comes to magic power, is like water out of a hose. It's not that they can use all the power at once, but rather that the power is effectively infinitely renewable.

Dr Gotham, from what I remember, has like tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of magical artifacts in his timelord trenchcoat, which he taps for magic like a magic the gathering player tapping land.

I would therefore while his magic reserve isn't infinitely renewable, I see no reason why he couldn't tap as many of those artifacts as he needs for the task at hand.

In DnD 3x terms, Lords are like warlocks, they can cast their spells 24/7 without their mojo going dry, but I would think that Dr Gotham would be like a psion- His mojo runs out, but he can "go nova" by spending all of his mojo at once.
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Yeah, but they had John overpower his trenchcoat with Lord of Order powers separately. He couldn't use them without time to prepare, or a chance to enter his pocket space (which he did open).
 
Stsword said:
Honestly, I would think that Dr Gotham could overpower a chain that can suppress a lord of order.

The impression I got is that being a lord of order or chaos, when it comes to magic power, is like water out of a hose. It's not that they can use all the power at once, but rather that the power is effectively infinitely renewable.

Dr Gotham, from what I remember, has like tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of magical artifacts in his timelord trenchcoat, which he taps for magic like a magic the gathering player tapping land.

I would therefore while his magic reserve isn't infinitely renewable, I see no reason why he couldn't tap as many of those artifacts as he needs for the task at hand.

In DnD 3x terms, Lords are like warlocks, they can cast their spells 24/7 without their mojo going dry, but I would think that Dr Gotham would be like a psion- His mojo runs out, but he can "go nova" by spending all of his mojo at once.
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Like mquz said, they caught him in bed so he wasn't wearing his trenchcoat of power.
 
Hehehe. This chapter was just fun.
So this means the positive changes to Gotham will actually stick?
This guy's influence probably explains guys like that rat controlling dude just showing up.
 
Vaermina said:
You're forgetting something important, they aren't actual police officers.

And they didn't even identify themselves as having any authority to arrest Doctor Gotham until after he waved his hand at them.

Also don't forget that that's not all Orange Lantern did, he smashed open what would legally be considered a magical cryogenic unit, that he could not scan inside, using a deadly weapon.

It would be very easy to argue reckless endangerment there.
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OL's a league affiliate, which counts as police for the purposes of investigations and arrests. You only need to identify yourself as a police officer if you're going to use your police authority to do something (like arrest someone), and OL was only asking Gotham for his name prior to being attacked, not arresting him. Legally, cryogenic vaults are an expensive form of coffin and cryogenic patients are legally corpses. The magic sarcophagus is more like this guy's bed, and in the US if the police can absolutely get away with destroying your furniture during a search.
 
Mquz said:
Yeah, but they had John overpower his trenchcoat with Lord of Order powers separately. He couldn't use them without time to prepare, or a chance to enter his pocket space (which he did open).
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That's not how his trenchcoat works.

He opens a portal to go all Gilgamesh, all he has to do to tap his artifacts like lands in MtG is have the trenchcoat.

iamnuff said:
Like mquz said, they caught him in bed so he wasn't wearing his trenchcoat of power.
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Then how exactly did he use magic to open his personal portal while having his magic suppressed by magic suppression chains that can suppress a Lord's magic?
 
Stsword said:
Then how exactly did he use magic to open his personal portal while having his magic suppressed by magic suppression chains that can suppress a Lord's magic?
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Maybe it suppressed his powers, but the trenchcoat was considered separate, and only required his intent to be used? Then it was suppressed by Fate.

Now that Fate has really been helping OL a lot, I hope he is legit and isn't secretly evil.
 
Buggy123 said:
Agreed. Breaking into someones residence and violently awakening and restraining them would prompt a violent response/defense from any reasonable person.

Now, granted, some rather suspect things have happened in his home. But still.
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Wasn't there human trafficking going on in his home, I kinda feel like that's illegal? not to mention the evidence of human sacrifice around him.
 
Lubaf said:
Er, one of the first things Doctor Mister Gotham said was "Ah. Well, in that case I'm going to have to kill you and use your life force to restore her. Nothing personal, but I've woken up early and I'm rather hungry." (underline for emphasis). I think that is probably sufficient evidence for "attempted murder" in most states.

Thanks
Luc "Subtly Obvious" French
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Well, to be fair, he had just had his home broken into by a glowing orange christmas tree and his glowing yellow ankh of a christmas tree topper, and when he asked about his caregiver, was told she was busy 'trying not to bleed out.' Which sounds like she is the one in danger of dying and the night glo duo were bragging/ taking credit for it. Even the damning quote was about wanting to use their life force to save their victim.

If the ancient sorcerer can find the local equivalent of Wolfram & Hart he really should get off scot free, perhaps even rightly so. Blame nefarious happening in the basement everything on Strygia, he having spend most of the last several millenium trapped and unable to be an active participant in anything bad that happened.

Senevri said:
Just mentally add "in America" to every post.
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Or New Zealand. The most recent mod to post was from there.
 
Wait a second. What sort of self respecting Brit prefers coffee over tea? :D
 
Vaermina said:
So you're admitting that the magic suppressing chains are negatively effecting his health.

Which is all the argument any half way decent lawyer will need to have them removed so long as Doctor Gotham can assure them there isn't any permanent side effects of the short term minor life draining he would need to stay alive. Which in story has already been established as being true.
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... no? his poorly-conceived attempt at parasitic immortality is whats killing him-the implication is that he'll be dead from age within a decade if he's prevented from killing someone else to maintain his current state- it isnt OL's fault that the idiot chose a means of life-prolongation that required him to magically kill people to stave death off a few more years at a time >.<
literally all the chains do is make him unable to use his "talents" (originally had "offensively" here, removed it after discussion)- that argument would not stand up in court, as you are LITERALLY saying "stopping this man from murdering people and eating their souls to stay alive is morally wrong!"

.....maybe you should just be patient and wait for the next time he does something genuinely morally-dubious like the the psychological torture+genocide combo he used to exterminate the citidelians? >.<
 
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Dragonvx100 said:
You know, it's moments like this that remind you of how powerful Paul really is. With all the times he faces enemies that can no sell his abilities it makes it really easy to forget how powerful he actually is.
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Superman comics have a similar problem. Always so powerful that the encounter is trival or made powerless.
 
Ngamer11 said:
Maybe it suppressed his powers, but the trenchcoat was considered separate, and only required his intent to be used? Then it was suppressed by Fate.

Now that Fate has really been helping OL a lot, I hope he is legit and isn't secretly evil.
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It's been somewhat hinted at that he's the version of John from the live action series. Definitely in appearance, and he might be considered the most orderly non-evil version.
 
Interesting resolution to this episode...

And is Vaermina using RL to debate things that have been fleshed out in the fic?

In this universe, vigilantes and people that preform civilian arrest have a lot more leway than the real world equivalent, unless wanton violence is used or several laws are broken, vigilante arrest are taken in good faith by the police so long the vigilante in question cooperates with the authorities when they show up (in short depends entirely on the results).

Hostile magic users are now under the purview of laws that were enacted in response to the Roanoke global incident, the degree of harshness changes on a country to country basis (and paragon and renegade have different levels of laws at least in the US), but he is unlikely to be treated as an "old man with a gun", he is a ppwerful malefic arum and he and his minions are unlikely to get much clemency once the extent of their crimes are known.

Finally OL has remarked that the Justice League and their affiliates are granted full authority to confiscate dangerous technologies AND magical artifacts on pretty much all UN signatory countries, the governments of these countries can demand or keep the artifacts confiscated, but only if they have the facilities to secure them.


So as far as the IN universe laws go there are NO problems with the arrest of Mister Gotham and his minions, real life US law is mostly irrelevant as we have already been told most of the mechanics in place that make the entire operation lawful and the violence against these magic users and their collaborators justified.
 
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