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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

All I could think of was this moment (spoilered for length):



Agreed. Breaking into someones residence and violently awakening and restraining them would prompt a violent response/defense from any reasonable person.
That said, the violent response/defense defense (heh) would only work for a mostly-instinctive/act of passion response that comes in the heat of the moment, before ascertaining that the person doing it indeed had the authority to do so. Doc Goth's rather clear and lucid statement of intent beforehand indicated that he not only was fully conscious (and thus not operating on instinct), but also aware of the situation and had full control over his actions, so it wasn't an act of uncontrollable passion.

Basically, it might not hold up in court as attempted murder, but it'd sure as hell qualify as sufficient for an initial arrest, even if he ends up not being arraigned on that particular charge.

Er, one of the first things Doctor Mister Gotham said was "Ah. Well, in that case I'm going to have to kill you and use your life force to restore her. Nothing personal, but I've woken up early and I'm rather hungry." (underline for emphasis). I think that is probably sufficient evidence for "attempted murder" in most states.
Again, it might not hold up enough for an attempted murder charge... but that statement of intent would legally constitute assault in any US state. (Short version: Assault is doing something that makes them think you're going to try to hurt them; battery is actually attempting to hurt them physically.)

OL's a league affiliate, which counts as police for the purposes of investigations and arrests. You only need to identify yourself as a police officer if you're going to use your police authority to do something (like arrest someone), and OL was only asking Gotham for his name prior to being attacked, not arresting him. Legally, cryogenic vaults are an expensive form of coffin and cryogenic patients are legally corpses. The magic sarcophagus is more like this guy's bed, and in the US if the police can absolutely get away with destroying your furniture during a search.
Better would be to say "while subduing you if you resist arrest." For them to get away with destroying your furniture during a search, they need a search warrant (or exigent circumstances such as reasonable cause to believe that a kidnap victim is trapped inside your mattress); otherwise, they're legally on the hook for any damage they cause (not to mention having any evidence they find that wasn't in plain view thrown out as an illegal search). Even with a warrant, they have to be able to demonstrate that it was strictly necessary to the search and seizure of evidence. For example, a search warrant would allow the police to cut a bloodstained portion out of your mattress to seize as evidence; a search warrant for evidence of drug smuggling would allow them to cut open your mattress to search inside it for a hidden stash, but a search warrant for evidence of auto theft wouldn't, as there's no real reasonable way that one could hide a stolen car inside a mattress, and thus cutting the mattress open would be seen as purely vengeful vandalism.

Trivia note: in most jurisdictions, police departments are legally required to financially compensate property owners for any and all damage done during the execution of a warrant or an arrest. So every time a SWAT team breaks down a door and throws tear gas grenades into the room before entering on a high-risk warrant service, the cops will have to reimburse the homeowner for replacement of the door, lock, and frame, and for decontaminating/extracting tear gas residue from everything inside the room. (This is one of many reasons that SWAT teams only make entry as a last resort, preferring to have a hostage negotiator "bore them to death" over the phone so that the suspect comes out voluntarily and peacefully.)

No idea. I think that you can assume that the SI making ferret poo coffee as a joke probably doesn't indicate a preference.
Jet lag is a right bitch. Probably even more so when you're teleporting instantly from one side of the world to another instead of having to actually physically move from one place to another...
 
Apollo is the god of prophecy and has an oracle among the Amazons to this day.

I would presume that the Legion of Superheroes included Dream Girl, who comes from an entire planet of people who can see the future, but she never got mentioned that I'm aware of, so I might certainly be wrong there.
The prophecies that we've seen from Apollo in-story have been about present circumstances, which is certainly a meaningful sort of divination, but it's not future sight. And even if his oracles can predict the future, the question I asked is if they can do it reliably and intentionally. Catching glimpses of destiny when events align just right isn't reliable (you can't count on events always aligning) or intentional (you didn't ask a question, you responded to information given to you unbidden).

No, it was making a threat and waving his hand.

Which is at most criminal menacing a criminal act with at maximum a 2 year sentence in the states said laws actually exist in. Which he wouldn't serve anyways because he has a self defense claim due to you breaking into his place of residence and violently waking him up.
Keep in mind that Gotham City is in Connecticut. The crime there isn't called "criminal menacing" (that's actually only on the books in a small number of places), it would be called brandishing a weapon. Which in and of itself is only a misdemeanor, but as a finding of fact such a crime can be used as an evidentiary or aggravating factor in the evaluation of another crime. The most obvious higher crime that comes with brandishing a weapon is assault with a deadly weapon -- and an assault charge (at least in Connecticut) doesn't require actual harm, only intent to commit harm. And if baleful magic isn't legally construed as a deadly weapon, Connecticut also recognizes "dangerous instruments" which can be anything capable of inflicting deadly injury even if it's not designed for it. (The classic example is trying to run someone over with your car -- the car is a dangerous instrument here.)

Connecticut also recognizes an aggravating factor for assault: if you know someone is a witness to a crime, and you assault them, then the minimum penalty is ten years.

The self-defense claim is invalidated by the circumstances of the event. Mister Gotham here was not in immediate mortal fear for his life or safety. The situation was under control. He might have been able to mount a legal defense based on an invasion of his home, but he screwed that up with his statement of intent -- he wasn't trying to stop a crime; he explicitly stated that he was intending to profit from the killing.

To be fair, it would be an interesting legal case. It's not obviously cut-and-dried and there are a number of ways a defense lawyer could approach this. It might even be possible to establish a reasonable doubt about some of the charges, such as the attempted murder charge. (Even if found not guilty, though, the threat of lethal force DOES give OL standing to use force to subdue him.) I don't see a good way of getting around the conspiracy charges, though.

So you're admitting that the magic suppressing chains are negatively effecting his health.

Which is all the argument any half way decent lawyer will need to have them removed so long as Doctor Gotham can assure them there isn't any permanent side effects of the short term minor life draining he would need to stay alive. Which in story has already been established as being true.
Now this, on the other hand, is actually a solid argument. It doesn't give him grounds to demand that the chains be immediately removed, but it does weigh into the required accommodations of his incarceration. Prisoners are required to be given reasonable health care. The prison would be obligated to find a reasonable means to protect him and his health. Of course, the prison is also obligated to keep him incarcerated, so it would probably involve removing the magic suppression while keeping him otherwise secured (perhaps by armed guards) for just long enough for him to draw some life force from livestock or something.
 
Oof, this was a brutal curbstomp.

Having said that, I do hope OL doesnt get too cocky living in Gotham for so long. All he has to do is blink, and the enemies are falling apart.
 
Blaze needs to show up and do a mass sanctification of Gotham or something; it might be a long-term project but there should be enough popular/political will for such a course of action (Which reminds me, any update/progress on finding the escaped G-Onis? Did they end up in Hell or something?).
The discussion of magic artifacts in this update reminded me of the MLP kelpie-amulets in Denmark in the Renegade timeline, which I believe should still be sitting there unprotected in the Paragon timeline. Of course, I'd hope that some trusted authority on magic learned some initiative from Paragon and is coordinating the search and evaluation of museum displays around the world for potential magical artifacts- Doctor Mist might be non-interventionist but I believe he'd consider something like that to be within his self-imposed purview.
 
Are the Chinese going to return Klarion chains to their owner.


And Paul won't blame them: He has others, and the things are only really useful in locking down magic users you already have ahold of (or have a speedster around, which usually amounts to the same thing). While they could be misused, given that killing is another option the Chinese don't shy away from, they probably won't by most reasonable standards.

Thanks
Luc "Together We'll Break These Chains of Love" French
 
Keep in mind that Gotham City is in Connecticut. The crime there isn't called "criminal menacing" (that's actually only on the books in a small number of places), it would be called brandishing a weapon. Which in and of itself is only a misdemeanor, but as a finding of fact such a crime can be used as an evidentiary or aggravating factor in the evaluation of another crime. The most obvious higher crime that comes with brandishing a weapon is assault with a deadly weapon -- and an assault charge (at least in Connecticut) doesn't require actual harm, only intent to commit harm. And if baleful magic isn't legally construed as a deadly weapon, Connecticut also recognizes "dangerous instruments" which can be anything capable of inflicting deadly injury even if it's not designed for it. (The classic example is trying to run someone over with your car -- the car is a dangerous instrument here.)

Connecticut also recognizes an aggravating factor for assault: if you know someone is a witness to a crime, and you assault them, then the minimum penalty is ten years.

The self-defense claim is invalidated by the circumstances of the event. Mister Gotham here was not in immediate mortal fear for his life or safety. The situation was under control. He might have been able to mount a legal defense based on an invasion of his home, but he screwed that up with his statement of intent -- he wasn't trying to stop a crime; he explicitly stated that he was intending to profit from the killing.

To be fair, it would be an interesting legal case. It's not obviously cut-and-dried and there are a number of ways a defense lawyer could approach this. It might even be possible to establish a reasonable doubt about some of the charges, such as the attempted murder charge. (Even if found not guilty, though, the threat of lethal force DOES give OL standing to use force to subdue him.) I don't see a good way of getting around the conspiracy charges, though.
I think you have a bit of a misunderstanding in concern to the circumstances.

Doctor Gotham wasn't actually awake till Paul broke open his sarcophagus. If you want to be exact magically speaking he's been trapped in the dream for the past 40,000 years. There's no real conspiracy so much as Strega listening to the disconnected mumbling of a sleeping person and that sleeping person getting brief glimpses of her as she attempted to free him from his sarcophagus.

Further you're forgetting that HE didn't intend to profit from the killing. But instead was planning to use that energy to save someone else the people invading his home had just suggested they grievously injured. Which means while you might be able to argue there was no immediate fear for his own safety, and that's a big might, concern for the safety of others applies.

Now this, on the other hand, is actually a solid argument. It doesn't give him grounds to demand that the chains be immediately removed, but it does weigh into the required accommodations of his incarceration. Prisoners are required to be given reasonable health care. The prison would be obligated to find a reasonable means to protect him and his health. Of course, the prison is also obligated to keep him incarcerated, so it would probably involve removing the magic suppression while keeping him otherwise secured (perhaps by armed guards) for just long enough for him to draw some life force from livestock or something.
The funny thing is he could probably even argue "religious rights" over this given the sun god he follows.
 
Paul is a Space Cop. So anyone tries any legal trickery and he can just remove them by space law to go to space court for space hearing to be sent to space jail.

Also post Roanoke laws are in effect. They should be incredibly harsh to magic users seeing how so many Children were killed by magic users.
 
Paul is a Space Cop. So anyone tries any legal trickery and he can just remove them by space law to go to space court for space hearing to be sent to space jail.
Since the Sol System hasn't signed any treaties with the Orange Lantern Corps that would be kidnapping.

Also post Roanoke laws are in effect. They should be incredibly harsh to magic users seeing how so many Children were killed by magic users.
And I am sure they would be, if he had actually committed any criminal acts with magic.

But Doctor Gotham has been locked up for the past 40,000 years and was literally just broken out by Paul.
 
Doctor Gotham wasn't actually awake till Paul broke open his sarcophagus. If you want to be exact magically speaking he's been trapped in the dream for the past 40,000 years. There's no real conspiracy so much as Strega listening to the disconnected mumbling of a sleeping person and that sleeping person getting brief glimpses of her as she attempted to free him from his sarcophagus.
That's a valid point; his defense could argue that he wasn't a willing participant in the conspiracy. It might even work.

Further you're forgetting that HE didn't intend to profit from the killing. But instead was planning to use that energy to save someone else the people invading his home had just suggested they grievously injured.
No, this counts, for the same reason that you can't steal someone's kidney to save someone else's life.
 
T








2012










Thanks for sharing the sequence of links finally able to find it...!
 
That's a valid point; his defense could argue that he wasn't a willing participant in the conspiracy. It might even work.
I would honestly be a bit surprised if the prosecutor doesn't get to the "I broke open his sealed from the outside sarcophagus with a deadly weapon" part of Paul's report and go "It's very unlikely we would be able to win this case".

No, this counts, for the same reason that you can't steal someone's kidney to save someone else's life.
I am not sure that would work given "stealing a kidney" would be a separate act that would occur after defending others from them.
 
does doctor gotham have money to get a lawyer. Public defenders in america are so overworked that I expect his lawyer would have less than an hour to review the case before the court time. So no way is an overworked underpaid public defender gonna be able to go with the new magic laws to get Mister Gotham out of a jail sentence.
 
Interesting resolution to this episode...

And is Vaermina using RL to debate things that have been fleshed out in the fic?

In this universe, vigilantes and people that preform civilian arrest have a lot more leway than the real world equivalent, unless wanton violence is used or several laws are broken, vigilante arrest are taken in good faith by the police so long the vigilante in question cooperates with the authorities when they show up (in short depends entirely on the results).

Hostile magic users are now under the purview of laws that were enacted in response to the Roanoke global incident, the degree of harshness changes on a country to country basis (and paragon and renegade have different levels of laws at least in the US), but he is unlikely to be treated as an "old man with a gun", he is a ppwerful malefic arum and he and his minions are unlikely to get much clemency once the extent of their crimes are known.

Finally OL has remarked that the Justice League and their affiliates are granted full authority to confiscate dangerous technologies AND magical artifacts on pretty much all UN signatory countries, the governments of these countries can demand or keep the artifacts confiscated, but only if they have the facilities to secure them.


So as far as the IN universe laws go there are NO problems with the arrest of Mister Gotham and his minions, real life US law is mostly irrelevant as we have already been told most of the mechanics in place that make the entire operation lawful and the violence against these magic users and their collaborators justified.
Also, the human trafficking and human sacrifice going on in his 'house' I think that give OL a valid reason to detain him and confiscate weapons.
 
...So how does the Joker keep avoiding the death sentence?
Despite OL's statement....by comic book writers seriously not understanding insanity pleas or how arrests actually work.

Joker is stated to have a "Dream team" of lawyers that keep him off death row for one.

Of course, as Joker has no legitimate income, every single penny and asset he has would be seized by the state upon his arrest. You can't use funds you obtained illegally to fund a legal defense after all. The IRS would be all over that shit.

I also believe that he has been executed by the state once, but revived somehow.
 
wait doctor Gotham is the reason the whole city is loony insane and corrupt right.

So you can also charge him with city wide posion/toxic attack. He posioned the city with an undetectable magical posion. That can now be detected. So thats hundreds of years of magical posioning of the city.
 
Despite OL's statement....by comic book writers seriously not understanding insanity pleas or how arrests actually work.

Joker is stated to have a "Dream team" of lawyers that keep him off death row for one.

Of course, as Joker has no legitimate income, every single penny and asset he has would be seized by the state upon his arrest. You can't use funds you obtained illegally to fund a legal defense after all. The IRS would be all over that shit.

I also believe that he has been executed by the state once, but revived somehow.
People could donate to his defence fund.

I seem to remember that he was once due to be executed for a crime he didn't commit, but Batman got him off.
wait doctor Gotham is the reason the whole city is loony insane and corrupt right.

So you can also charge him with city wide poison/toxic attack. He poisoned the city with an undetectable magical poison. That can now be detected. So that's hundreds of years of magical poisoning of the city.
If they could prove that was happening, and that is was deliberate. He was there first.
 
Of course, as Joker has no legitimate income, every single penny and asset he has would be seized by the state upon his arrest. You can't use funds you obtained illegally to fund a legal defense after all. The IRS would be all over that shit.

That rings a bell.....
 
..So how does the Joker keep avoiding the death sentence?

I've never really understood why this is a sticking point for so many.

The DC universe is a place where facing a deadly threat is a standard means of getting superpowers. All it takes is one guy who gets up and walks away from the electric chair as The Electrocutioner, and I'd imagine that the death penalty would start losing some of its luster.

This is particularly true when you're talking about a guy with no apparent superpowers, who reasonably could be assumed to be perfectly safe to be locked up for the rest of his life.

That series also showed that the Joker doesn't know the difference between a trademark and a patent.

Thank you!

Yes, IP law joins insanity defenses and diplomatic immunity as legal fields that comic book writers seem to take delight in just babbling nonsense about.
 
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