With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[Ngamer11]

Yes, I should probably change the name.

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Now that the name has gone from Deicide to Fraticide, I have no clue as to what it might be about. Does anyone have any good ideas? It has to be something that can work with both names.

 

[Darko]

The title Fratricide squad could have something to do with red lantern, though I doubt it.
Maybe God of War?

 

[Mr Zoat]

The title Fratricide squad could have something to do with red lantern, though I doubt it.
Maybe God of War?

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No, it's Suicide Squad. One of the animated ones.

 

[Darko]

If you mean animated television series then Justice League Unlimited, though if you mean a movie animation then it could be several.
Still it could include Raul.

 

[WereDragon]

A marvellous chapter.

I feel insufficiently levelled
for this boss encounter

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If you feel sufficiently levelled then it isn't worthy of being a boss.

"I'm not actually Grayven! Something stopped me being able to use my actual name and I.. didn't worry about it until the Forever People mistook me for someone called Grayven and I played along to try and get access to their technology! I actually-."

I look down at my body and I'm not.. completely surprised to see that I've regained the form I had when I first arrived on Earth 16. Pyjamas and all.

"Yes, I looked like this, and everything's rather gotten away from me since. I think I'm coping and I'm sure that Darkseid would have turned his attention to Earth before too long anyway, but I've got no idea whether I'm actually ahead on the deal or not and I'm constantly scared that my worst case scenario is happening all around me and I'm just not seeing it!"

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Interestingly this is less "I'm not who I say I am" and more "I am not nearly as in-control as I like to pretend."
Wonder when he last thought of the Ciaphas Cain books.

"Celestia!"

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Not unexpected. Think Gravyen did a better job than Starlight Glimmer at bringing this issue to light.

It's corny, but…

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Bah, narrative causality cares not for corny-ness. It cares only for the story and for the theme.

with my own face.

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He has some serious body-image issues if he genuinely thinks that.

 

[Idkusername]

Mantling did not originate in the Dresden files. What we have here is a homophonic/namespace collision, because what Grayven is doing is very similar to mantling in the Elder Scrolls setting, where a character chooses to follow the path of an existing god long enough to acquire their power before slanting off in a direction of their own with it. Which has metaphysical implications for both the god being mantled and the person doing the mantling.

I believe that, even if we can say with any degree of certainty that this isn't what is actually happening, this is the source of the confusion because the form of mantling described in the FAQ and referencing the Dresden Files is not the form of mantling people are referring to when they talk about Paul mantling Grayven like Tiber Septim mantled Lorkhan to become Talos. The mantled god is not so much replaced (though that can happen in some cases because ES is very metaphysically messy) so much as used as a spark to kindle something new, and both mantle and mantler will tend to be altered in the process. Same word, same sound, and similar but pertinently different meaning and implications due to different metaphysical frameworks.

New Gods aren't set roles, and neither are the gods of the Elder Scrolls. The Eight/Nine Divines were not always the Divines before Saint Alessia imposed herself on them. Mannimarco seeks to mantle Molag Bal and usurp him as the God of the Undead, but not necessarily in any other capacity. And even if he succeeds (which it is implied he at least partially accomplished during the Warp in the West), it doesn't remove 'undeath' as a thing Molag Bal has power over.

So as I've said before, I believe this is where the confusion is coming from because Grayven looks an awful lot like he's mantling conquest in such a manner, even to the point of duplicating and expanding upon domains/embodied concepts without replacing the original entity he was impersonating.

If we can't understand that, we're just going to keep having this come up because people are going to keep not talking about the same thing past each other, and people are going to keep ignoring the FAQ when they make this connection because what's described in the FAQ doesn't describe what they're referencing.

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Thing is, you're the first person on the Internet I've heard use it in that context. Everyone else, well, most everyone else uses it in the context of the Dresden files. Or so I assumed, without further clarification.

Also, since the whole Grayven shebang started, people were talking about Jim Butcher's cash cow, not Tod Howard's, so it's an entirely reasonable mistake.

I haven't read through the whole thread (obviously), but I think you might be the first person here to reference Elder Scrolls in this context.

P.S. Do I sound like an ass at times? I'm afraid my humour doesn't always carry over well to text.

 

[Coda]

If it turns out that a white lantern ring could cure an anti-life infection all along Grayven is gonna be so pissed when he finally gets one. I just can't wait for his inevitable "HOW DID I MISS THIS" freakout.

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I'm pretty sure Grayven knew it would work from the beginning but he didn't (and really, still doesn't) have a good way to pursue that idea. Just because he knows the Life Entity is on Earth doesn't really give him a way to forge a White Ring; he'd still need to build up the emotional compatibility with all of the other concepts and figure out how to merge them, and doing that with a fragment of Anti-Life polluting his soul might not be possible. At the very least, there's a real risk that it would have broken containment before he could pull it off. Grayven was wise to look for alternatives.

Thing is, you're the first person on the Internet I've heard use it in that context. Everyone else, well, most everyone else uses it in the context of the Dresden files. Or so I assumed, without further clarification.

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I think that may have been an invalid assumption -- the two ideas are close enough together that it's hard to tell the difference outside of the specific points of deviation.

Do I sound like an ass at times?

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Not any more than anyone else.

 

[Siskulous]

Maybe he'll just send Steppenwulf

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Completely unrelated, but does anyone else think of this instead of a comic book character whenever Steppenwulf is mentioned?

Theres always the possibility that OL mantled Graven so hard he became him.

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*coughfaqcough*

Holy fuck, did actual character development for Grayven just actually happen!??!?!?!?!

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Be fair. It's not a common thing, but this is very far from the first time Grayven's experienced serious character development. He is capable of learning from his mistakes. Sometimes. Ok, rarely, but still, it happens.

Ok, while I admit I have no idea what the power levels for MLP:FiM are, having never watched it, I fear you are gravely underestimating Darkseid.

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Eh, Pinkie Pie evens it out. I've not seen a LOT of MLP - mostly I've just been in the room not really paying attention while my kids watch it - but Pinkie Pie seems to me to be able to tap into the Toon Force. That's some serious power, enough to rival Darkseid all on its own. Provided it's funny.

Mantling is totally a thing here Mr Zoat said he didn't know what it meant and then that it wasn't intentional, but the actual description of what renegade-Paul did to become a god by claiming the name of someone who already exists, then somehow ended up taking that person's God Domain and getting memories of growing up As that person, on a planet that he had never actually been to...

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That's not at all what happened. Fatherbox made a soul for him by copying Graven's soul, which makes him quite a lot like Graven. That's a far different process than pretending to be a god so hard that you actually replace said god.

Ugh okay look. Mantling, from the Dresden Files from where it originates, or was codified, means raking over a role in a story-and-theme based power system such as the Fae Courts in the Dresden Files. The Roles from A Practical Guide to Evil fit mantling as well.

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The concept people are referring to is mantling from The Elder Scrolls. I've no idea where Zoat got the idea that it was from Dresden Files, given that those mantles bear absolutely no resemblence to anything in this story.

 

[rdfox]

Completely unrelated, but does anyone else think of this instead of a comic book character whenever Steppenwulf is mentioned?

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No. It's not just you. Though for me, it alternates with this...

 

[Handlewithcare]

Re: Mant(e)ling

Look people. You will just have to accept our headcanon of a fanfic of a fictional multiverse, okay?

 

[PDV]

Thing is, you're the first person on the Internet I've heard use it in that context.

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It's been mentioned multiple times just within this thread.

 

[iamnuff]

That's not at all what happened. Fatherbox made a soul for him by copying Graven's soul, which makes him quite a lot like Graven. That's a far different process than pretending to be a god so hard that you actually replace said god.

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Like I repeated multiple times. Renegade started picking up memories frm a childhood he never had. Possibly inheriting traits from the person he was pretending to be, and stole the powerset/godly domain of the person he was pretending to be.

That's not just copying someone. There's bleedover from the real Grayven into him.
Which is a core part of the mantle-gaining process.

The concept people are referring to is mantling from The Elder Scrolls. I've no idea where Zoat got the idea that it was from Dresden Files, given that those mantles bear absolutely no resemblence to anything in this story.

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I mean, this is atleast partially wrong, because I'm talking about the mantles from The Dresden Files, because that's a settling that uses the phrase 'Mantle' to describe a fae or divine role.

I have no idea what elder-scrolls stuff you're talking about.

 

[Siskulous]

I mean, this is atleast partially wrong, because I'm talking about the mantles from The Dresden Files, because that's a settling that uses the phrase 'Mantle' to describe a fae or divine role.

I have no idea what elder-scrolls stuff you're talking about.

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In Dresden Files "Mantle" is a noun refering to a metaphysical thing you wear (or, more accurately, is usually forced onto you, usually following the death of the previous person to wear it) that gives you a role and the powers to go with it and exerts some influence on your moods and whatnot, but the person wearing the mantle is still themselves. The Winter Lady may be constantly horny now (and possibly being driven slowly insane by her inability to do anything about it), but she is the same person she was before. The Winter Knight may be more prone to anger, but he's not a fundamentally different person than he was before. And, most notably, nowhere in any of the books is it used as a verb.

In Elder Scrolls "mantling" is a verb. Vastly oversimplified, a mortal pretends to be a god so hard that the universe actually turns them into that god and replaces the original with them. There are two really good examples in the lore, but one in particular gives us a very good example of how not-the-same-person someone who has accomplished this feat becomes. The Hero of Kvatch - the main character from Oblivion - mantles Sheogorath in one of the Oblivion DLCs and then shows up in Skyrim so we get a good before-and-after image of them. Now while being a main character means that the before could have been just about anything, in the process of mantling Sheogorath he has completely become Sheogorath, the Daedric Prince of madness, and there is very little left of whoever he was before. While the comparison is not quite perfect, this much more closely resembles what has happened to Grayven.

 

[LostPath]

I feel like Pony Metron should come and observe all of this weirdness.

 

[DrThoth]

On the other hands, DC's gods might work like that. I could easily imagine a storyline where Wonderwoman beats up Ares and unintentionally ends up taking his title as the God of War. Eventually the role starts to effect her and make her more and more warlike until she goes evil, gets beat up by the justice league and has to renounce her godhood so she can go back to being Wonder Woman again.
I think Marvel's Gods already work like that. Sort of, anyway.

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I believe there is a storyline where Wonder Woman becomes a War god, she can spiritually/psychically commune with every soldier and stuff (which reminds me that I'm looking forward to seeing Ares appear in the story; I don't think this'll happen but Renegade is already Conquest, so him assembling a team of deities resembling the Four Horsemen could be fun, if New 52 stuff hasn't tainted that idea for Zoat).

I'm less familiar with Marvel stuff, in terms of actual comicbook source material and not adaptations. The closest referent I have is some of the divine metaphysics in Thor: Ragnarok, though sadly that movie was, in my opinion, basically undone by everything that happens in subsequent Avengers films.

 

[Idkusername]

It's been mentioned multiple times just within this thread.

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Might well be true, except I was using that as an explanation for my assumption and not anecdotal evidence of who referred to what. I made it clear I hadn't read the whole of the thread and my knowledge could very well be incomplete.

 

[Coda]

That's not at all what happened. Fatherbox made a soul for him by copying Graven's soul, which makes him quite a lot like Graven. That's a far different process than pretending to be a god so hard that you actually replace said god.

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If you handwave away the concrete details of the mechanism by which it happened, the overall process matches pretty darn well.

 

[Valint]

That's not just copying someone. There's bleedover from the real Grayven into him.

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Wasn't there a theory at one point that Paul might actually be the real Grayven?

The idea being that original Grayven from the YJ universe either (a) was doing the xianxia thing where they live a lifetime as an ordinary human as a way of gaining another perspective on life and strengthening their particular philosophical path, and did too good of a job sealing away his original memories, or (b) something happened in the Bleed that caused him to think he was just an ordinary human, but all of the SI's memories were just fictions created by his fractured mind trying to put itself back together and make sense of what he had learned in the Bleed.

 

[Huttj509]

In Dresden Files "Mantle" is a noun refering to a metaphysical thing you wear (or, more accurately, is usually forced onto you, usually following the death of the previous person to wear it) that gives you a role and the powers to go with it and exerts some influence on your moods and whatnot, but the person wearing the mantle is still themselves. The Winter Lady may be constantly horny now (and possibly being driven slowly insane by her inability to do anything about it), but she is the same person she was before. The Winter Knight may be more prone to anger, but he's not a fundamentally different person than he was before. And, most notably, nowhere in any of the books is it used as a verb.

In Elder Scrolls "mantling" is a verb. Vastly oversimplified, a mortal pretends to be a god so hard that the universe actually turns them into that god and replaces the original with them. There are two really good examples in the lore, but one in particular gives us a very good example of how not-the-same-person someone who has accomplished this feat becomes. The Hero of Kvatch - the main character from Oblivion - mantles Sheogorath in one of the Oblivion DLCs and then shows up in Skyrim so we get a good before-and-after image of them. Now while being a main character means that the before could have been just about anything, in the process of mantling Sheogorath he has completely become Sheogorath, the Daedric Prince of madness, and there is very little left of whoever he was before. While the comparison is not quite perfect, this much more closely resembles what has happened to Grayven.

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The problem with terminology from other fiction sources is that it carries with it a lot of implications about what's going on, and what will be the result, that are not relevant to the story at hand.

Renegade's soul was "patched (in the software sense)" by Father Box with parts of Grayven's soul. This has had, and will have ramifications. Those ramifications may have similarities, or be completely different from what a similar process would do in the Elder Scrolls.

Thus, using a term from TES without comparative context, when the same term is used in other popular media to mean different things and not used by the author of this Fic to provide a baseline point of reference, is at best ambiguous, and potentially misleading, causing people to draw incorrect conclusions about how things are expected to work in this Fic.

 

[Mr Zoat]

The problem with terminology from other fiction sources is that it carries with it a lot of implications about what's going on, and what will be the result, that are not relevant to the story at hand.

Renegade's soul was "patched (in the software sense)" by Father Box with parts of Grayven's soul.

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No it wasn't. It was built in the likeness of Grayven's soul. Grayven still has all his own soul. Grayven didn't even know that the Renegade existed until the last Citadelians informed him.

 

[Darko]

If some Citadelians escaped the renegades genocide on their race then did some Citadelians also escape on the paragon side and join Grayven, aside from those Citadelians the paragon "recruited" for Amalac, after shooting 800 of them and leaving, like what, eleven?
Does paragon Grayven know about Paul?

 

[Mr Zoat]

If some Citadelians escaped the renegades genocide on their race then did some Citadelians also escape on the paragon side and join Grayven, aside from those Citadelians the paragon "recruited" for Amalac, after shooting 800 of them and leaving, like what, eleven?

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I think that sentence needs a little work.

The Renegade thinks he got all of the Citadelians. There weren't all that many of them and this Corps and the Imperials were looking pretty darn hard.

Does paragon Grayven know about Paul?

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Yes.

 

[Darko]

Are Paul and paragon Grayven going to meet anytime in your story?

What happened to Savitar when Kid Flash went on that mission?

Did they recover that speedster woman that was kidnapped?
I only remember reading that Wally talked her down from giving her powers to those cultists.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Are Paul and paragon Grayven going to meet anytime in your story?

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Yes.

What happened to Savitar when Kid Flash went on that mission?

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He wasn't there, and was occupied.

Did they recover that speedster woman that was kidnapped?
I only remember reading that Wally talked her down from giving her powers to those cultists.

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Yes.

 

[Sceptic]

Theres always the possibility that OL mantled Graven so hard he became him.

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No... No there isn't... Because that's not actually a thing...

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Wait, so... hypothetically speaking, if I just beat a guy to death with a piece of fireplace, you're saying I haven't just trivially stolen his identity‽

Anyone got any advice for hypothetical body disposal?

 

[Mquz]

Might well be true, except I was using that as an explanation for my assumption and not anecdotal evidence of who referred to what. I made it clear I hadn't read the whole of the thread and my knowledge could very well be incomplete.

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It's mentioned almost every time mantling is in this thread. The elder scrolls version is borrowed from Dresden files to explain how the PC can be the Nerevarine, and several other similar "reincarnations" in the lore.

 

[TheMidnightRook]

If it turns out that a white lantern ring could cure an anti-life infection all along Grayven is gonna be so pissed when he finally gets one. I just can't wait for his inevitable "HOW DID I MISS THIS" freakout.

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Except that that would require actually getting his hands on one. I'm not an expert on the various Lantern Corps, but I don't think white power rings even existed until Brightest Day, which is still some time in the future.

I think Apokolips has like three minor gods of war right now, or something.

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IIRC, it was explained in a prior Renegade segment that Darkseid split the domain of war between his sons. Orion got the Glory of War, Grayven got Conquest, Kalibak got... something, I forget what it was.

 

[Ideomancer]

Except that that would require actually getting his hands on one. I'm not an expert on the various Lantern Corps, but I don't think white power rings even existed until Brightest Day, which is still some time in the future.



IIRC, it was explained in a prior Renegade segment that Darkseid split the domain of war between his sons. Orion got the Glory of War, Grayven got Conquest, Kalibak got... something, I forget what it was.

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The Brutality of War, I believe. Kalibak embodies pretty much everything about warfare that gives people PTSD.

 

[Mquz]

Except that that would require actually getting his hands on one. I'm not an expert on the various Lantern Corps, but I don't think white power rings even existed until Brightest Day, which is still some time in the future.



IIRC, it was explained in a prior Renegade segment that Darkseid split the domain of war between his sons. Orion got the Glory of War, Grayven got Conquest, Kalibak got... something, I forget what it was.

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Cats?

 

[DrThoth]

The Brutality of War, I believe. Kalibak embodies pretty much everything about warfare that gives people PTSD.

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I believe it was called the Horror of War (in Renegade's first onscreen interactions with the Amazons), but the meaning is pretty much what you said.

Except that that would require actually getting his hands on one. I'm not an expert on the various Lantern Corps, but I don't think white power rings even existed until Brightest Day, which is still some time in the future.

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Renegade has explicitly referred to his plans, or at least the beginning of plans, for white light manipulation; it came up in his internal narration in one of Ghi'ata's first appearances as a reason for involving himself with her (moreso than just obligation to Aga'po would entail). He has Red (Inspector Talbot), Orange (his original ring and his Corps), Yellow (Sinestro-ring) and is on roughly good terms with some Green Lanterns, and now Ghi'ata. The Indigo Corps should be out there in his timeline, staying under the radar, so while it probably won't be easy, it's still a possibility to get an ally from them. All that leaves is Blue.

I don't remember if it came up again, but @MrZoat what did Diana/the League end up doing with the power battery lantern that Renegade recovered from Apokalips? (I may have asked this already, so I apologize if so- I'm assuming they just returned it to the Guardians but that might be me remembering your answer).