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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

"John Constantine, the Hanged Man. You gave me more power than he could bear. Parts of him could cope with the power of Chaos, and parts could cope with the power of Order. But his whole self couldn't cope with both together."

"He used you and the Demon to offload it?"

"No. That wouldn't have worked, but it would have been far less dangerous. Instead, he used us to split himself in two."
So rather than pursue the wiser Alchemical path of strengthening/improving himself to handle that power, he divides and thus weakens himself.

John's basically pulled a Voldemort.
 
So rather than pursue the wiser Alchemical path of strengthening/improving himself to handle that power, he divides and thus weakens himself.

John's basically pulled a Voldemort.
You're falling into the same trap as LePaul and assuming it's actually possible to be a stable Lord of Balance.
 
The second "Demon" John who traveled with Paul/Alan/Mist/Sandy was about to marry Kit, the love of John's life, when they found him. That seems like a clue.

I would imagine the one trying to marry Kit is actual John.
 
1. Sickly Boy + Golden Boy = Combined John
2. Combined John - Demon John = Fic Start John
3. Fic Start John + Klarion Sauce = Chaos John
4. Chaos John + Nabu Sauce = Overload John
5. Overload John / (Golden Boy + Demon John) = John Quinn + False Demon

I think that's everything.
 
I believe the official Vertigo/DC Tarot has John as the Fool, actually :).
Hellblazer 39.
So there should be 4 Constantines right now, I believe? Original John, Demon Constantine, Golden Boy, the latter two being used as magical foci to split Original John into Quinn and the second Demon. Though I think I'm getting the sequence of events wrong (4 John Constantines, anyway, we also have his sister, Morgana's daughter, Gemma and John's long-lost nephew, though I don't know if 2 people can be the Laughing Magician at the same time or anything).

And then there's Anti-Life around just to make this even more fun. If only John had taken a metaphysical day trip and run into Hawk and Dove's patrons or something, maybe a lot of this mess could have been avoided. He probably wouldn't be a Constantine if that happened, though.
According to The Golden Fogey, there are four. Himself, The Demon, and the two halves of John, one of whom is probably infected with Anti-Life.
Thank you, corrected.
 
Chop off all the bits that aren't working right and shove them into a homunculus of yourself and see what's left...

Maybe he could end up making his own little Rogu.

Then when he eventually betrays Rogu, Rogu can make him pay.

And thus the Constantine line can be ended.

...Okay, guess he is. :confused: Why does this suddenly explain some things about him?

Because it just does.

Oh, yeah, Sandy's still down below, isn't he? Joy of being the only non-flier (Well, the Doctor is being carried, but...)

Mist can fly but maybe he's not doing it now due to fear of being detected or because the magic in the place is interfering.

Besides make for the world's most complicated hookah? :p ...What, you're gonna say John wouldn't try and smoke some of Dream's sand if he could?

He already snorted Santa Claus.

Well, that sounds like heavier restraints than what the Demon got. Evidently, whatever's in there has a lot more mystical oomph.

Or is just more dangerous even without magic.
 
The second "Demon" John who traveled with Paul/Alan/Mist/Sandy was about to marry Kit, the love of John's life, when they found him. That seems like a clue.

I would imagine the one trying to marry Kit is actual John.

I think the point is that either there is no "actual" John right now, or "actual" John is both Quinn and the shapechanging other demon, depending on how you define "actual."

I'm reading 4x Constantine right now.
 
Damn it John. If he couldn't cope he should have found someone who could, but then he wouldn't be Constantine now would he.

Presumably a Lord of Balance would be possible, but it would require someone very wise and good at harmony. Which Constantine is not. Theoretically Balewa or Richard Dragon or someone like them could pull it off, but I don't think that will happen here.
 
Damn it John. If he couldn't cope he should have found someone who could, but then he wouldn't be Constantine now would he.

Presumably a Lord of Balance would be possible, but it would require someone very wise and good at harmony. Which Constantine is not. Theoretically Balewa or Richard Dragon or someone like them could pull it off, but I don't think that will happen here.

Zoat seems to have made it harder in his cosmology here than it is in the comics.

The Hector Hall Dr Fate was a Lord of Balance, not because of any great enlightenment, but just because he was reincarnated as Hawk and Dove's son, who were blessed collectively by the Unity- The Lord of Order Terataya and Lord of Chaos T'Charr who are in love (yes, the Unity is their couple name!), and so blessed Hank Hall and Dawn Granger so that their children would embody cooperation between order and chaos.

The fact that they originally blessed two brothers either shows they were a little fuzzy on how human reproduction works or they changed their minds on the end goal at some point.

Likewise back when Power Girl was Atlantean her grandfather Arion arranged for his great grandchild to be fathered, artificially thank goodness, by a chaos demon so said child would be both Order and Chaos- Equinox. Although the Brave and Bold version seems more inspired by the In-Betweener though.

And in one of the possible futures of Armageddon 2001, Hank and Dawn's daughter inherited their blessing and took up the identity of the Unity, and although the issue ended before her fight with Monarch ended, it actually looked like she was winning when the vision ended. Which considering Monarch supposedly killed all the supers of Earth to establish his reign, suggests truly impressive power levels.

Edit- Oh and post flashpoint, Harley was approached by the Lords to become an Angel of Chaos and Order, she ended up convincing them to give the job to a Tamaranean gal she met, Mirand'r.
 
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It seems that John Constantines' are somewhat like buses, we've been waiting long while for one and then 4 come round all at the same time.

I wonder if we could lure in Zatanna into this clusterfuck if promise that he could murder at least one John, maybe throw the shapeshifting demon Constantine under that bus.
 
Zoat seems to have made it harder in his cosmology here than it is in the comics.

The Hector Hall Dr Fate was a Lord of Balance, not because of any great enlightenment, but just because he was reincarnated as Hawk and Dove's son, who were blessed collectively by the Unity- The Lord of Order Terataya and Lord of Chaos T'Charr who are in love (yes, the Unity is their couple name!), and so blessed Hank Hall and Dawn Granger so that their children would embody cooperation between order and chaos.

The fact that they originally blessed two brothers either shows they were a little fuzzy on how human reproduction works or they changed their minds on the end goal at some point.

Likewise back when Power Girl was Atlantean her grandfather Arion arranged for his great grandchild to be fathered, artificially thank goodness, by a chaos demon so said child would be both Order and Chaos- Equinox. Although the Brave and Bold version seems more inspired by the In-Betweener though.

And in one of the possible futures of Armageddon 2001, Hank and Dawn's daughter inherited their blessing and took up the identity of the Unity, and although the issue ended before her fight with Monarch ended, it actually looked like she was winning when the vision ended. Which considering Monarch supposedly killed all the supers of Earth to establish his reign, suggests truly impressive power levels.

Edit- Oh and post flashpoint, Harley was approached by the Lords to become an Angel of Chaos and Order, she ended up convincing them to give the job to a Tamaranean gal she met, Mirand'r.

Fair enough. Though hopefully a child doesn't need to be specifically conceived to become Unity here, and it can follow in the steps of some of the other examples.
 
What happens in the issue? Someone calls him that or he's put in the physical/metaphysical position of the Hanged Man?
No, they use a tarot deck and the Hanged Man represents him. In issue 40 he merges with the Golden Boy and the text on the card gets overwritten with 'Magus', which was Golden Boy's card.
 
That would require any version of Constantine to have some kind of communication skills more developed than pissing off everyone around himself.

Utterly impossible.
Well, he also happens to be capable of getting women to sleep with him. Even looking like Sting, there's only so much that hatesex can explain.
 
Tower Offence (part 19)
8th November 2012
12:25 GMT -5




"That makes a horrible amount of sense. So, what was the plan?"

"Each part of himself would grow into their power, and then at some point in the future the two would be brought back together. When they were more accustomed to their power."

"Why doesn't the Demon version remember that? Why did he end up in Belle Reve? And where-? Are they?"

"There wasn't much I could see from here, and the Order aura makes it hard to me to perceive what was happening with my magic. If you're asking for my best guess, it would be that John Constantine doesn't much like John Constantine at the best of times."

"Okay, Quinn beats The Other Demon down and sticks him in Belle Reve in place of the original. Then he carries on with his project of learning to use Order magic fully. At… Some point he gets exposed to the Anti-Life, and without specific protections he gets infected. So if he ever intended to reassemble himself, he certainly isn't going to do that now."

"Oh? Why not?"

"Adding new thoughts would risk throwing off the Anti-Life's control. At least for long enough for him to either use his own magic to expunge it properly or teleport to us."

Except… This whole structure is live.

Xander.

"This thing is stopping them becoming a single person. It didn't force them apart; it's keeping them apart. And killing him… Ah… He's still plugged in, so they'd probably just merge again."

The Golden Man nods. "John Quinn would have to expose him to the Anti-Life first."

Sanderson takes a closer look at the booth. "Do you want us to break you out?"

The Golden Man shakes his head. "I never existed. This edifice is dedicated to maintaining my paradoxical existence."

"Could you exist in the Dream?"

"Possibly, but I like to think that I had a positive effect on John after joining with him. When we merged he was on a very miserable path." He shakes his head. "The world is more than my existence. Do not concern yourself with me unless every other problem is dealt with first."

But we don't know where Quinn or Demon 2 are. If that 'void in the world' person is the ultimate source of the Anti-Life infection-.

I fly down, then up towards The Demon.

"Mist, Demon, can we use this machine to bring Quinn and the other Demon here? Because it can't take that long for Quinn to take him to his Anti-Life source and we don't know where that is."

"Not easily. John Quinn is a mortal man, and his connection to Order is not strong enough to reliably bring him here with this beacon."

The Demon doesn't say anything.

"The Golden Boy is locked up at the other end of the machine. According to him, John Constantine used this to turn himself into two people using Demon One and him as counterweights, or… Something." Dr. Balewa nods thoughtfully. "The machine is holding them apart. Which I'm hoping means that they're still tied to it in some sort of magic sense you can use."

"Let… Let me… Think."

"Demon, I know that you hate John Constantine as much as John Constantine does at his worst, but if he gets Anti-Lifed then he won't exactly be himself any longer. And if he's not himself then he's not suffering because there's no him."

"I worked that out. Thing is, I've also worked out how to make this thing do what you want."

"If you want to do some sort of trade, there's a pretty hard limit on what I'm prepared to offer. The other Demon was getting a pot plant."

"Not the problem. There's probably some dead clever way to make this work, but you're on the clock. You don't have time. Or there's the quick way."

"Talk faster."

"That's the thing, isn't it? I don't know if I want to." He smiles at me with a mouth full of broken teeth. "'course, we both know you could fix that."

"John Quinn has already been exposed to the Anti-Life. As such, the situation isn't severe enough to-."

"I didn't see him using the full power of a Chaos Lord. Which we both know John was. So why might that be?"

"I'd been assuming that The Other Demon got the Chaos magic. If John made him forget about it-."

"Give over, mate. Being a Chaos Lord is pretty fucking obvious. Even if he forgot everything he knew about Chaos magic-."

"Yeah, yeah, okay. Go on then. Show me how clever you are."

"Chances are, John Quinn is all of John Constantine's wisdom, and skill with higher concepts." He looks around for a moment. "Demons aren't really creatures of Order or Chaos, so there's no real reason to split them down the middle. Not when the whole point is to learn to use them together. If he channels most of the power into this place, Quinn could learn to use mid-level Order and Chaos magic."

"Okay, but-?"

"What's my double for?" He shrugs, the chains not allowing him a great deal of movement. "Don't know for sure, but I'd guess that John wanted a bit of him to stay weak. To keep his unwise personality somewhere safe so it wouldn't get overwhelmed."

That… Might explain why he wanted to soak up John's psychic residue… If his whole function is to maintain John's personality…

"And Quinn stuck him in prison because that's the wisest thing he could do." Sounds… Plausible. I glance at Dr. Balewa, who gives me a tentative nod. "So?"

"So it's not just that this place is holding them apart, it's literally where most of the magic is going. So you've got a few choices. You could blow the whole thing up. Do that, they merge back together with the full power of Order and Chaos." Another attempt at a shrug. "Might get rid of the Anti-Life. Might not. Or you can just wait here. He-. They, are gunna want their full power back some time, and they'll have to come here for that. You're a bright lad, you could probably find someone else to channel all that power into."

"Or we could do some sort of ritual with you and The Golden Man."

"The other two were created using us. There's an ongoing thaumic link through this machine." His eyes seem to glow slightly. "Get it right, you might not even have to fight him."

"I.. don't know-" I glance at Dr. Balewa again, but he's deep in thought. "-what sort of ritual that would be."

"Me an' Goldy would merge together. Dead easy to make it ritually equivalent, an' doing it here can easily bring them right back." He looks away for a moment. "John asked about that once, y'know. Merging the two of us back together. I said 'no', but that's probably when I hated him least."

"Are you willing?"

"Am I willing to die for John Constantine? Hm." He relaxes into his chains. "Do I want him to suffer so much that I'm willing to cease existing to give him back my misery?"

He grins fiercely.

"Fuck it. Let's do it."
 
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"That makes a horrible amount of sense

It really doesn't.

. If you're asking for my best guess, it would be that John Constantine doesn't much like John Constantine at the best of times."

No shit.

probably fine someone else to channel

"find someone"

"I.. don't know-" I glance at Dr. balewa again, but he's deep in thought. "-what sort of ritual that would be

"Balewa"
 
So is this a reversal of fortune where it's Constantine's friend (Paul) that ends up fucking him over?

Lets be honest, 1 Paul kind of fucked him over with the results of the Nabu showdown and 2 this situation is so off and convoluted that anyone would struggle not to screw over constantine in some way in the course of resolving things.
 
Paul. This is the same Demon who led you and Constantine by the nose and helped arrange the death of 5/6ths of the SABBAC sponsors AND the 1st of the Fallen. He arranged for that damnably clever outcome AND for Human-Constantine's planning.

This guy, though he is stuck in a jar, is smarter than you… and is pressuring you to make a snap decision. Plus you already know there has been a mental effect manipulating your thoughts away from contacting Constantine. Who knows who is on the other end of that spell? Glares at Demon Constantine
 
Lets be honest, 1 Paul kind of fucked him over with the results of the Nabu showdown and 2 this situation is so off and convoluted that anyone would struggle not to screw over constantine in some way in the course of resolving things.

I mean it seems like it has gotten to the point where it is so convoluted that he screwed himself over. I am only surprised that this held together for about 16 months.

Actually looking back I am surprised it has only been a bit over a year. It feels like longer. But we are just at the end of season 5 now. And 3 episodes after this big one, so should be interesting.
 
8th November 2012
12:25 GMT -5




"That makes a horrible amount of sense. So, what was the plan?"
And boy, it's gonna have to be a royal doozy to make all of this make any sense. It feels like someone's been playing Xanatos Speed Chess with the Constantines... And even if it does all make sense, there's still the matter of who Anti-Lifed Quinn.

"Each part of himself would grow into their power, and then at some point in the future the two would be brought back together. When they were more accustomed to their power."

"Why doesn't the Demon version remember that? Why did he end up in Belle Reve? And where-? Are they?"
One thing at a time, OL. Though that first part does make some measure of sense. It's still a bad plan, so it's perfect for a Constantine.

"There wasn't much I could see from here, and the Order aura makes it hard to me to perceive what was happening with my magic. If you're asking for my best guess, it would be that John Constantine doesn't much like John Constantine at the best of times."

"Okay, Quinn beats The Other Demon down and sticks him in Belle Reve in place of the original. Then he carries on with his project of learning to use Order magic fully. At… Some point he gets exposed to the Anti-Life, and without specific protections he gets infected. So if he ever intended to reassemble himself, he certainly isn't going to do that now."
To be fair, this plan wouldn't have taken much of a wrench to go completely tits-up.

"Oh? Why not?"

"Adding new thoughts would risk throwing off the Anti-Life's control. At least for long enough for him to either use his own magic to expunge it properly or teleport to us."
So they won't be likely to be facing a recombined Demon II/Quinn combo. Not if whoever's pulling the Anti-Life's strings has any say in it. Some small comfort...

Except… This whole structure is live.

Xander.
Ah, that eclectic collection of metaknowledge.

"This thing is stopping them becoming a single person. It didn't force them apart, it's keeping them apart. And killing him… Ah… He's still plugged in, so they'd probably just merge again."

The Golden Man nods. "John Quinn would have to expose him to the Anti-Life first."
In order to maintain the psychological balance. And effectively square the effect of the Anti-life against the remerged powers of Order and Chaos...

Sanderson takes a closer look at the booth. "Do you want us to break you out?"

The Golden Man shakes his head. "I never existed. This edifice is dedicated to maintaining my paradoxical existence."
Ha! I knew it. He's effectively John's imagined version of 'what would I be like if my life wasn't shit', in this scenario. Enough metaphysical weight due to the split timelines to be a separate person, but ultimately just a shade.

"Could you exist in the Dream?"

"Possibly, but I like to think that I had a positive effect on John after joining with him. When we merged he was on a very miserable path." He shakes his head. "The world is more than my existence. Do not concern yourself with me unless every other problem is dealt with first."
...Wow, a selfless Constantine. That's... Almost inconceivable, if he weren't standing right there.

But we don't know where Quinn or Demon 2 are. If that 'void in the world' person is the ultimate source of the Anti-Life infection-.

I fly down, then up towards The Demon.
Time for a second opinion, even if it's one that loathes the man.

"Mist, Demon, can we use this machine to bring Quinn and the other Demon here? Because it can't take that long for Quinn to take him to his Anti-Life source and we don't know where that is."

"Not easily. John Quinn is a mortal man, and his connection to Order is not strong enough to reliably bring him here with this beacon."
At best, you might end up with the helmet in hand. But I doubt the connection is that strong either...

The Demon doesn't say anything.

"The Golden Boy is locked up at the other end of the machine. According to him, John Constantine used this to turn himself into two people using Demon One and him as counterweights, or… Something." Dr. Balewa nods thoughtfully. "The machine is holding them apart. Which I'm hoping means that they're still tied to it in some sort of magic sense you can use."
Rule of Contagion. If something was part of something else, then it remains so, magically speaking.

"Let… Let me… Think."

"Demon, I know that you hate John Constantine as much as John Constantine does at his worst, but if he gets Anti-Lifed then he won't exactly be himself any longer. And if he's not himself then he's not suffering because there's no him."
Heh, appealing to his spite? That might get him on the same page, at least.

"I worked that out. Thing is, I've also worked out how to make this thing do what you want."

"If you want to do some sort of trade, there's a pretty hard limit on what I'm prepared to offer. The other Demon was getting a pot plant."
Great, so they're literally going to have to make a deal with a devil.

"Not the problem. There's probably some dead clever way to make this work, but you're on the clock. You don't have time. Or there's the quick way."

"Talk faster."
Quick. Safe. Effective. Pick any two, huh? There's that masochistic streak, I see.

"That's the thing, isn't it? I don't know if I want to." He smiles at me with a mouth full of broken teeth. "'course, we both know you could fix that.

"John Quinn has already been exposed to the Anti-Life. As such, the situation isn't severe enough to-."
I mean, what does the Demon want? John suffering, that's a given. His freedom? Unlikely. So what else can they offer?

"I didn't see him using the full power of a Chaos Lord. Which we both know John was. So why might that be?"

"I'd been assuming that The Other Demon got the Chaos magic. If John made him forget about it-."
That'd be like trying to pour an ocean into a teacup. And while Utgard-Loki might have managed that with a drinking horn, I don't think it's possible here.

"Give over, mate. Being a Chaos Lord is pretty fucking obvious. Even if he forgot everything he knew about Chaos magic-."

"Yeah, yeah, okay. Go on then. Show me how clever you are."
True, his ego probably wants some stroking. Since he's not likely to get any other kind in this situation.

"Chances are, John Quinn is all of John Constantine's wisdom, and skill with higher concepts." He looks around for a moment. "Demons aren't really creatures of Order or Chaos, so there's no real reason to split them down the middle. Not when the whole point is to learn to use them together. If he channels most of the power into this place, Quinn could learn to use mid-level Order and Chaos magic."

"Okay, but-?"
So this machine is partly functioning as a siphon. Keeping the power from overflowing its vessels.

"What's my double for?" He shrugs, the chains not allowing him a great deal of movement. "Don't know for sure, but I'd guess that John wanted a bit of him to stay weak. To keep his unwise personality somewhere safe so it wouldn't get overwhelmed."

That… Might explain why he wanted to soak up John's psychic residue… If his whole function is to maintain John's personality…
And we've already seen how unwise the other Demon is, with the Baghdad thing. Not the smartest plan at the best of times.

"And Quinn stuck him in prison because that's the wisest thing he could do." Sounds… Plausible. I glance at Dr. Balewa, who gives me a tentative nod. "So?"

"So it's not just that this place is holding them apart, it's literally where most of the magic is going. So you've got a few choices. You could blow the whole thing up. Do that, they merge back together with the full power of Order and Chaos." Another attempt at a shrug. "Might get rid of the Anti-Life. Might not. Or you can just wait here. He-. They, are gunna want their full power back some time, and they'll have to come here for that. You're a bright lad, you could probably fine someone else to channel all that power into."
Though I doubt you're hesitating to put yourself forwards for that, the answer would be a hard 'no.'

"Or we could do some sort of ritual with you and The Golden Man."

"The other two were created using us. There's an ongoing thaumic link through this machine." His eyes seem to glow slightly. "Get it right, you might not even have to fight him."
...And what's the bet the Demon already has something in place to shift things in his favour when their plan goes off?

"I.. don't know-" I glance at Dr. balewa again, but he's deep in thought. "-what sort of ritual that would be."

"Me an' Goldy would merge together. Dead easy to make it ritually equivalent, an' doing it here can easily bring them right back." He looks away for a moment. "John asked about that once, y'know. Merging the two of us back together. I said 'no', but that's probably when I hated him least."
Well, he was probably a little worried about what you were getting up to, so it was understandable.

"Are you willing?"

"Am I willing to die for John Constantine? Hm." He relaxes into his chains. "Do I want him to suffer so much that I'm willing to cease existing to give him back my misery?"
Right, stupid question. Moving on...

He grins fiercely.

"Fuck it. Let's do it."
...Oh, fuck, he almost certainly has something planned.

Well, this is going swimmingly, then... For a 'Hellblazer' plotline. Which means someone is going to get fucked over a barrel, and it won't be a Constantine. I would really counsel for more study and preparation, but Quinn and Demon II are likely already en route, along with their black sponsor. Because whoever it is, I don't see them being happy about losing their golden goose.
 

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