With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[0zymandias]

I can't help but side with Commander Scott here, is what he did the most morally righteous thing to do? No. But what alternative did he have? It's easy for Lord of Balance John to come in and judge him but I'm thinking of what options he had. If the options were a) give meta-criminals to the Dominion, b) give meta-heroes, c) defiantly refuse and then lose the whole planet. I really don't see any decision that wouldn't make John pissy. And the coverup issue seems more coincidental more than it is damning.

'Ends justify the means' is a very harsh philosophy but for a role like Protector of the entire planet, it makes perfect sense why the JSI exec board would agree with option a). And I don't think this can really be compared to the Justice Lords, they took power over the US forcibly; as far as we can tell the JSI answer to the UN and they were handed powers to protect the planet.

It seems that Alt-Alans are really interesting characters, I wonder how a conversation between Capo Scott, Commander Scott and Blue Lantern would go. Some kinda side story would be fascinating to read.

He knows what he wants. He doesn't necessarily know how to get it. The issue here is that he's now uncertain if his approach will actually get him what he wants.

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I think he wants a stronger more efficient Justice League that has more involvement in global affairs but feels that copying the JSI might not be the way to go about it.

No, it's about something completely different.

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I really hope he gets a sidekick or companion to ground him and remind him of human empathy. Or maybe a Motherbox since he's nearing New Godhood

 

[Nero200]

I can't help but side with Commander Scott here, is what he did the most morally righteous thing to do? No. But what alternative did he have? It's easy for Lord of Balance John to come in and judge him but I'm thinking of what options he had. If the options were a) give meta-criminals to the Dominion, b) give meta-heroes, c) defiantly refuse and then lose the whole planet. I really don't see any decision that wouldn't make John pissy. And the coverup issue seems more coincidental more than it is damning.

'Ends justify the means' is a very harsh philosophy but for a role like Protector of the entire planet, it makes perfect sense why the JSI exec board would agree with option a). And I don't think this can really be compared to the Justice Lords, they took power over the US forcibly; as far as we can tell the JSI answer to the UN and they were handed powers to protect the planet.

It seems that Alt-Alans are really interesting characters, I wonder how a conversation between Capo Scott, Commander Scott and Blue Lantern would go. Some kinda side story would be fascinating to read.


I think he wants a stronger more efficient Justice League that has more involvement in global affairs but feels that copying the JSI might not be the way to go about it.

I really hope he gets a sidekick or companion to ground him and remind him of human empathy. Or maybe a Motherbox since he's nearing New Godhood

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I don't think the point is John being annoyed, the goal/reason for this was showing OL a possible result of the means he has been working towards.

This reality-roadtrip was synchronicity putting OL where he needed to be to learn a lesson that needed to be learned.

 

[topin89]

I love this chapter.
First, OL power was countered and we got something more than another nearly-Godman adventure. But that, of course, was just a warm-up.

OL looking in a moral mirror was just priceless. It even has these classic opposite-but-same vibe, I mean old Green Lantern veteran vs young Orange Lantern upstart. What's more interesting, Scott is even more moral than OL. It's not "just squeamishness", it's not OK to be at piece with the situation. It's a trolley problem where you have to throw a 10000 big guys you can choose hoping it will stop the trolley from killing billions. I bet OL would do the same, but, until this very conversation, he won't feel even slightly sorry (as was shown on him killing brainwashing brownies). Alan at least hated it has to be done, if not who was sacrificed.
And Paul did not like what he saw.
I think that's first time we saw him being unable to decide some morally ambiguous question. To the point he said Constantine should decide, because he's a responsible guy who mostly makes good decisions, yes.
Whatever comes next, I'm excited to see.

I can't express how much I disliked this. OL being a psychopathic nutcase carries this story, and any change to that will just diminish it.

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Still not sure why lots of people call him sociopath. He does have conscience, it just works in a mysterious ways. Blue and orange morality is much closer to the truth. That would never go away.

If this arc causes him to second-guess himself and and dither around for the next ten arcs then I'll be very disappointed.

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For next ten arcs -- sure. And yet, something should change, like approach to problem solving or self-awareness of how he sound to everyone around, or, you know, being actually sad he had to kill those brownies even if he had no real choice (while still not being sad at all for extermination of inherently villain species). Maybe something completely different, but no change at would be strange.

 

[Windona]

Oh that was great. I love Constantine getting one up on Paul, and showing him a mirror to look at the way he goes about things. Because he does tend to go 'sure but we're doing it my way'

 

[Wheenesss]

Most interesting episode I've read in a while. Hats off to you, Zoat.

Although does this universe have a Paul?

 

[dw7thdoctor]

What I don't get is if they gave them the most murderous people in their prisons or just the people in their prisons how they'd get Todd Rice? From the way they were acting, I'd thought he had his episode of scizo and was back in society.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Although does this universe have a Paul?

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I haven't reached a firm decision, but I'm leaning toward 'no'.

What I don't get is if they gave them the most murderous people in their prisons or just the people in their prisons how they'd get Todd Rice? From the way they were acting, I'd thought he had his episode of scizo and was back in society.

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Schizophrenia isn't something you have an episode of and then it clears up. He was in a secure facility while he was being treated.

 

[Darko]

I hate this conversation. And from the looks John's giving me, I've got a sneaky suspicion that I know what this whole thing was in aid of

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Well you helped him get his shit together, so he's now returning the favor.

"What do you think he'll do

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I wonder if he'll undo the spell.

Is this supposed to be implying Constantine is the reason why they went to the wrong parallel? He didn't need to be back long to start causing mischief again.

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He did throw that crystal, so maybe.

I am massively confused by Paul's reaction here. I thought he's Orange Enlightened, no? How is he so confused and experiencing cognitive dissonance over this? Shouldn't he clearly know what he wants and then deal with it? In this case, a world where goody two-shoes have input, because it makes him feel safer on his own path, and where he doesn't have to see someone with Grandpa Scott's face be the voice of cold hard logic, because he's sentimental like that

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He may know what he wants, but that doesn't mean that he knows what the outcome will be like, but now he does.

 

[Darko]

Probably true. The Dominators are not nice people as a culture, even if a single one might be.. an okay person.

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I think the know good Dominator in the comics was one from the n52 that worked for Starfire in liberating slaves.

And not all of them were convicted super-criminals.

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And even the ones that were probably weren't monsters.

...You are going to surrender that to the local authorities, right, John

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Chojin, stop asking dumb questions.

 

[Stsword]

I think the know good Dominator in the comics was one from the n52 that worked for Starfire in liberating slaves.

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Off the top of my head- The Electric Warriors, a post flashpoint prequel to Legion of Superheroes but a sequel to Kammandi the Last Boy on Earth has a Dominator who is part of the good guys, gladiators who were responsible for settling conflicts between planets who decided to go Spartacus.

The Blasters, a group of supers whose meta powers were activated by Dominator experimentation, had a Dominator. He named himself Gunther.

Looking it up on comicvine, there's also a member of WW's space pirate crew, and a member of the United Planet's sponsored team the United Order. So I guess the Dominators are now members of the United Planets.

 

[Lone Courier 6]

One of the big problems with making Superheroes more 'efficient' is that it can become a very slippery road to this JSI or Injustice's Regime.

Super Heroes are not meant to be soldiers as a whole, they're meant to be icons.

Paul wants to improve them without actually having a real understanding of how he wants to do that.

Here we have him confronted with a Super Organization that follows much of the advice he would have given, and he hates the end result, though perhaps that's only because it's an Alt Alan Scott telling him about it.

Mr Zoat would Paul still be so bothered by it if the one in charge and telling him this was someone he had no emotional connection to?

 

[Mr Zoat]

Mr Zoat would Paul still be so bothered by it if the one in charge and telling him this was someone he had no emotional connection to?

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It wouldn't hit him quite so hard, but he wouldn't be happy about it.

 

[Stsword]

Oh and get this- The JSI is not even the worst "Justice Society never disbanded timeline."

In DC Comics Two Thousand Morrow tried to cheat by sending modern technology to himself in the past and the JSA ends up with it, cue an alternate present with the Justice Squadron, made with genetic science. LEGO genetics to give people abilities I think.

Green Lantern/Hawkmen with emerald gauntlets and wings of green fire.

Dr Fates/Spectres

Flashes/Atoms

Dr Midnight/Starmen complete with cosmic staves.

Hourmen/Sandmen

Armies of them.

They took over the Earth and their crimes included destroying Atlantis, so yeah apparently they went full on fascist.

 

[xSieg]

Funny how Paul still came back to the Orange Enlightenment even after being soul-sucked by Qwamatter. While it's an ideal mindstate for his plans of eventually reenacting the Empire of Mankind, it's clearly not enough to make him completely inhuman in thinking, considering his whole episode with Wombworld and now him second-guessing his want the ends, want the means philosophy.

I'm guessing it limits him from using a White Ring too, because it colours his every emotion in orange tint, but that isn't extremely relevant as we will probably never see a WL onscreen

 

[Mr Zoat]

I'm guessing it limits him from using a White Ring too, because it colours his every emotion in orange tint, but that isn't extremely relevant as we will probably never see a WL onscreen

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Technically, you'll see one for about a paragraph.

 

[AmericanNumbers]

ParagonPaul being enlightened means he's clear about his thoughts and motivations and is not about self recriminations or doubt.
It does not mean he's infallible. Hell, his enlightened state means he'll do things which normal people wouldn't do simply because of social pressure. He's a little too much "ends justifies the means". Which is the point John's trying to get across.

As a counter example? Renegade Paul has way more limits on his actions thru peers and trusted confidantes.

 

[PDV]

"If you're in charge, and you know something is necessary to do something good, and you refuse to do it, that's just… Just squeamishness."

"No, it's… Normal morals that don't fit the situation. Normal morals are there to guide you through individual interactions. They don't work when you try applying them to a population of billions. I'd worry about someone who could make this sort of decision and not be troubled at all, but at the end of the day, if you can't say 'exitus ācta probat' then you're in the wrong job."

I hate this conversation. And from the looks John's giving me, I've got a sneaky suspicion that I know what this whole thing was in aid of.

I mean… I agree, though I'm really uncomfortable hearing it from an Alan's mouth. But no one spoke against it? I make a point of surrounding myself with people who disagree with me for a reason. I want them to find a better way to do things. I give them opportunities to do that. Because I generally wouldn't mind being wrong.

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If someone admired [you] and saw what you were trying to do, and set themselves to trying to do it too, but they were not quite as careful or quite as clever, what would happen?"

["They would make mistakes. If I lost some small part of what I am and what I care about, many such small steps leave a monster. I know that."]

"And you know also that it is very very hard for anyone to tell from the outside whether that is already true, that it requires an expenditure of their time and attention that very rarely are they going to be justified in paying. And so you cannot be followed, and should not be followed, and would not benefit from transmitting your worldview except under exceptionally unusual circumstances, and set bad precedents, and the resources of Good people and institutions are wasted on trying to stop you, and you risk losing the bits of yourself that make it even conceivably worth it."

"It means that people die when they could have lived, not because you could not have saved them but because you would have had to cut off part of yourself to save them, and you decided to hold it instead, for yourself and for everyone who looks up to you and will try to do what you've done. [It means], sometimes, seeing a way to solve your problems and not taking it, and not knowing if another way will come up."

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[jonasquinn]

I may be being an idiot but I really don't understand what OL learned here, Commander Scott's actions are completely reasonable and OL already takes every reasonable precaution he can to not have to make decisions like that while still being able to operate at the scale he does

if anything I feel like his takeaway from this should be "Commander Scott was right, it's just a shame that he didn't have the resources needed to go save people sooner"

 

[Windona]

I may be being an idiot but I really don't understand what OL learned here, Commander Scott's actions are completely reasonable and OL already takes every reasonable precaution he can to not have to make decisions like that while still being able to operate at the scale he does

if anything I feel like his takeaway from this should be "Commander Scott was right, it's just a shame that he didn't have the resources needed to go save people sooner"

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They were only in that situation because Earth didn't want the GLC to help, or make any diplomatic overtures to potential allies. And as a result, Commander Scott gave up a bunch of people including his own son to be used and experimented on.

Ends justify the Means is great, until you use it as an excuse to justify even the most monstrous means or as an excuse to not figure out a better way.

 

[jonasquinn]

They were only in that situation because Earth didn't want the GLC to help, or make any diplomatic overtures to potential allies. And as a result, Commander Scott gave up a bunch of people including his own son to be used and experimented on.

Ends justify the Means is great, until you use it as an excuse to justify even the most monstrous means or as an excuse to not figure out a better way.

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I don't think that's right? I'm pretty sure that the JLI's enmity with the GLC comes from them not helping with the Dominator invasion not some weird pre-existing dislike

Especially since the JLI wouldn't have had the authority to reject GLC help prior to the invasion and Commander Scott is pragmatic enough to accept their help in a dire situation even if he did have a pre-existing dislike of them. Plus when the hell were they supposed to contact and negotiate with potential allies when their planet is under attack and the Dominators had total control over space travel?

Even if what you say was the case that reflects absolutely nothing on OL who actively goes out of his way to gather as much information as he can, hear dissenting opinions, listen to the professionals and gather allies

 

[Deadring]

I don't think that's right? I'm pretty sure that the JLI's enmity with the GLC comes from them not helping with the Dominator invasion not some weird pre-existing dislike

Especially since the JLI wouldn't have had the authority to reject GLC help prior to the invasion and Commander Scott is pragmatic enough to accept their help in a dire situation even if he did have a pre-existing dislike of them. Plus when the hell were they supposed to contact and negotiate with potential allies when their planet is under attack and the Dominators had total control over space travel?

Even if what you say was the case that reflects absolutely nothing on OL who actively goes out of his way to gather as much information as he can, hear dissenting opinions, listen to the professionals and gather allies

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All the other stuff aside, I'm pretty sure the JSI doesn't like the GLC because they claim to have the authority to police Earth. I didn't look too hard, but the only reference I found to why they don't like the green boys is because "They don't get this isn't their planet". Not something Interceptor would say if they were mad about not being helped. Also, rather antagonistic, for people who could have saved them from being enslaved.

 

[jonasquinn]

All the other stuff aside, I'm pretty sure the JLI doesn't like the GLC because they claim to have the authority to police Earth. I didn't look too hard, but the only reference I found to why they don't like the green boys is because "They don't get this isn't their planet". Not something Interceptor would say if they were mad about not being helped. Also, rather antagonistic, for people who could have saved them from being enslaved.

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The issue is if that is the case then Commander Scott loses all legitimacy and becomes an even worse mirror to Paul because he let his pettiness get in the way of doing something that very well could have saved humanity without the sacrifice he made whereas If OL were in an equivalent situation he wouldn't hesitate to work with the Light or Truggs, his nemesis, before making any irreversible choices like that

Either this whole thing is an even worse comparison than I originally thought or it has nothing to do with the GLC

I also just realised I've been saying JLI when they're the Justice Society International

 

[Vaermina]

I may be being an idiot but I really don't understand what OL learned here, Commander Scott's actions are completely reasonable and OL already takes every reasonable precaution he can to not have to make decisions like that while still being able to operate at the scale he does

if anything I feel like his takeaway from this should be "Commander Scott was right, it's just a shame that he didn't have the resources needed to go save people sooner"

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Just because something is reasonable to do, doesn't mean it's the best thing you can do.

This was Constantine showing LePaul that, in the only way that would actually get through to him. IE taking him to a world where exactly what he wanted was done, and making him take a hard look at the end results of that.

 

[jonasquinn]

Just because something is reasonable to do, doesn't mean it's the best thing you can do.

This was Constantine showing LePaul that, in the only way that would actually get through to him. IE taking him to a world where exactly what he wanted was done, and making him take a hard look at the end results of that.

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But what about this is something OL wanted? Sure the JSI has some things that he believes are good and the League should adapt but that doesn't mean he agrees with the organisation as a whole and it arose from a wildly different situation than the League so any problems it has have no bearing on the League itself

 

[RoninSword]

So off top question, having only just binge read and caught up, how similar should I take the Renegade timeline is to the paragon (The Caligula club, or The Shade being possesed in renegade as opposed to Paragon?).

 

[jonasquinn]

So off top question, having only just binge read and caught up, how similar should I take the Renegade timeline is to the paragon (The Caligula club, or The Shade being possesed in renegade as opposed to Paragon?).

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It's probably best to consider them two completely separate things in my opinion, while renegade started as just a couple of differences here and there they've grown so separate that it's impossible to tell what they may have butterflied in or out of existence

 

[Stsword]

Even if what you say was the case that reflects absolutely nothing on OL who actively goes out of his way to gather as much information as he can, hear dissenting opinions, listen to the professionals and gather allies

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The story just addressed that, did you miss it?

21st November 2012

I mean… I agree, though I'm really uncomfortable hearing it from an Alan's mouth. But no one spoke against it? I make a point of surrounding myself with people who disagree with me for a reason. I want them to find a better way to do things. I give them opportunities to do that. Because I generally wouldn't mind being wrong.

It's not my fault if they don't have any better ideas. Or they just stick their fingers in their ears and hum loudly and hope it will go away.

I just-.

I-.

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[jonasquinn]

The story just addressed that, did you miss it?

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But that's my point, what is OL meant to have learned from this and why is it effecting him so much? Commander Scott is at absolute best a very half assed mirror of him and he is already taking every step he can to ensure he's making good decisions

What is the lesson here?

 

[Windona]

But that's my point, what is OL meant to have learned from this and why is it effecting him so much? Commander Scott is at absolute best a very half assed mirror of him and he is already taking every step he can to ensure he's making good decisions

What is the lesson here?

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Having a good apparatus to reduce error matters little if you don't actually take their advice into account and think you automatically know best and have considered everything they can possibly add. That the utilitarian choice isn't always the right choice (what's that line about good guys not being a shirt you wear but having to not do certain things?). That being able to rationalize terrible things, and even having a grain of truth to that, doesn't always a hero make.

We see a lot of this with how Paul mentions how some of the stuff the JSI does is stuff he's been trying to convince people to implement. How he tends to do things off on his own in grand enough ways that the League has a special code for him. This is supposed to be a cosmic 'check yourself before you wreck yourself' thing.

 

[BR549]

As an aside, finally figured out the continuity for the Transformers story. I'm pretty much OOTL on modern stuff, but I wikicrawl.
Anyhoo, for a while I wondered if this was the Animated continuity, and that... Would have been awkward.

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It was said early on. It's Aligned (Transformers: Prime) with some elements taken from the IDW2005 comics continuity.