Dead

[Scorpion 3-²]

[X] Being a detective

 

[edale]

[X] Go talk to your Dad about Emma
-[X] Before leaving, ask Diviner about Emma.

We really should get multiple points of view on this one, and Lisa is the only one who can accurately predict the PRT's reaction.

No, Tattletale gets more detailed information but at no point does the stuff her shard gives her let he do things like keep a group of psychopaths peaceful enough with each other when they by all rights should hate each other and try their hardest to kill half of the group on general principle.

Click to shrink...

So tattletale gets more info and more detailed info. All she doesn't get is the warnings of how a parahuman will act (the bit that lets Jack avoid getting hit, AKA why an unpowered human had to kill him).

So is Accord a Master too, for making everyone be polite and orderly around him?

How about Contessa? She can make anyone act anyway she likes, is she a Master?

You can not be a Master without taking control of something purely though your power. If Jack was a Master, then everyone he talked to would have to go through M/S protocols. DO they? Nope, because he's NOT A MASTER!!!

And exactly where did Sophia suggest anything? She simply displayed dislike of Taylor in their first meeting. Emma then immediately turned on Taylor to appease Sophia and seeing as Sophia liked it, she kept going further and further against Taylor of her own initiative to keep Sophia pleased with her.

Sophia didn't really care who it was and she's not an angel either, but the majority of the torments the Trio did to Taylor were Emma's idea, especially the ones that went beyond petty bullying. Neither Sophia or Madison really cared enough to bother when she wasn't right there in front of them.

Click to shrink...

For both this -- and for why Jack ISN'T a Master -- I strongly suggest you do a bit of research on how cult-leaders operate. Especially the methods they use for social control.

Really, at this point your ignorance is showing.

 

[Snake/Eater]

I don't mind you guys debating things, but I would really appreciate if you quit it with the personal attacks.

Click to shrink...

ok, i can give staying classy a shot.

 

[Fishyface]

[X] Go talk to the Hollow Man about Emma

 

[Snake/Eater]

[X] Go talk to your Dad about Emma
-[X] Before leaving, ask Diviner about Emma.

 

[Drak4806]

[X] Go talk to your Dad about Emma
-[X] Before leaving, ask Diviner about Emma.

 

[Nai]

[X] Go talk to your Dad about Emma
-[X] Before leaving, ask Diviner about Emma.

 

[Dromeosaur]

[X] Go talk to your the Hollow Man about Emma
-[X] Before leaving, ask Diviner about Emma.
Because asking Dad is not going to be helpful. It's not like he has any experience dealing with something like this. Oni lee should be at least a bit helpful.

 

[Budda002]

[X] Go talk to your the Hollow Man about Emma
-[X] Before leaving, ask Diviner about Emma.

 

[Snake/Eater]

We could talk to Squealer, she could replace Emma's brain with a engine.

 

[OverReactionGuy]

I haven't caught up yet, but snake?

Please stop suggesting the blood rituals or shit like that. It's not very helpful.

 

[Snake/Eater]

I haven't caught up yet, but snake?

Please stop suggesting the blood rituals or shit like that. It's not very helpful.

Click to shrink...

Everyone doesn't want to cure a mentally damaged girl because of her past actions , i'm taking a 3rd option by turning this liability into a fighting asset. but i have stopped with the blood ritual.

 

[OverReactionGuy]

Everyone doesn't want to cure a mentally damaged girl because of her past actions , i'm taking a 3rd option by turning this liability into a fighting asset. but i have stopped with the blood ritual.

Click to shrink...

And what your suggesting doesn't really make sense though. Making Emma's brain into an engine wouldn't help anything besides being unnecessary cruel.

If you want her dead, go for quick and painless suggestions.

As for people not wanting to cure her, well. I've read through some of the comments and they kinda made me shake my head.

The bullying wasn't worth S9 candidacy... but that is another discussion all together that probably doesn't belong here.

I honestly only seen that level of fanon hatred for Akane from Ranma or Sakura from naruto.

Besides, Emma wasn't in full control of her actions when she contacted the bee spirit and now she is even more mentally insane and can only speak in bee.

We should get Lisa to speak to her. I've been lead to believe that she can speak bee because of her power.

 

[Snake/Eater]

And what your suggesting doesn't really make sense though. Making Emma's brain into an engine wouldn't help anything because being unnecessary cruel.

Click to shrink...

It's tinkertech, it never makes sense. it's still cruel to not cure a mental cripple when a person has the means.

If you want her dead, go for quick and painless suggestions.

Click to shrink...

The truth is that i don't want her dead.
but the truth is that she's useless albatross as a cripple, at least Labyrinth was useful.
I'm a guy trying to make lemonade without suger, but damn it! there will be lemonade. one way or the other.

As for people not wanting to cure her, well. I've read through some of the comments and they kinda made me shake my head.

Click to shrink...

It's the turtle majority, they aren't known for making smart or rational decisions on this quest.

The bullying wasn't worth S9 candidacy... but that is another discussion all together that probably doesn't belong here.

Click to shrink...

that's a dangerous move, your going to ignite that sophistic inane debate if you keep shaming the Turtlers.

 

[OverReactionGuy]

that's a dangerous move, your going to ignite that sophistic inane debate if you keep shaming the Turtlers.

Click to shrink...

I wasn't shaming anyone with my post though.

-edit-

[X] Go talk to your the Hollow Man about Emma
-[X] Before leaving, ask Diviner about Emma.

This is probably going to backfire spectacularly, but meh. I still think Lisa can speak bee with her power.

Hollow Man would probably just say mercy kill her or something. Lisa will probably freak out at the information she gains from this.

Kitsune the shard would be salivating at the new data possibilities though! So that is a good thing!

 

[GiftofLove]

It's tinkertech, it never makes sense. it's still cruel to not cure a mental cripple when a person has the means

Click to shrink...

I'm pretty sure we didn't use that magic because it was given to us by The Betrayer, actually.

Other than that, what other options do you have? Because scooping out the girl's brain and replacing it with something else isn't exactly lining up with your stated goals.

Now you could try getting Squealer to see the brain as an engine that powers the body, and maybe get something useful out of that. It probably has a low chance of success, but we can see how her shard reacts. If it's holding out on her you can suggest the idea of trying to talk it into going along with it.

Just don't try to pimp slap it. Because there's a good chance it will kick our ass after being exposed to Oni Lee.

 

[OverReactionGuy]

Honestly I'm beginning to think the betrayer isn't that bad of a guy. But as soon as we finally trust him he will shift personalities.

He just seems like someone that is really bored. And considering that he was probably locked away with no one to talk to or betray for a very long time, then yeah. I could see why he would be bored.

Anyway, his goal is probably to become our friend until we would rely on him being our friend and then he would strike with his betraying ways.

We could probably have haggled some free gifts from him before that point though.

But it might not be worth it.

But then again that is a moot point since he left for the city. Probably to drink beer... well, try to find beer since Murphy drunk all the beer in the entire planet.

You can't punch someone who waggles their butt at you to say hi, even if you really want to."

Click to shrink...

That is a rather funny rule.

 

[edale]

We could talk to Squealer, she could replace Emma's brain with a engine.

Click to shrink...

Why, oh why.... Why can't we dislike posts?

We should get Lisa to speak to her. I've been lead to believe that she can speak bee because of her power.

Click to shrink...

That's Contessa, not Lisa.

The truth is that i don't want her dead.
but the truth is that she's useless albatross as a cripple, at least Labyrinth was useful.
I'm a guy trying to make lemonade without suger, but damn it! there will be lemonade. one way or the other.

Click to shrink...

Worm is a story about a world of shades of grey, where almost everyone views it as black and white. The entire story revolves around this concept, and you're FORCED to see it in the shades of grey it really is by the shear fact that things like Endbringer truces happen, where both sides work together against something truly 'evil'.

So why do you, and some unnamed others, insist on painting Emma as the most evil character in Worm, save Jack Slash himself?

I mean, I know bullying can be a trigger for some people, in fact for a LOT of the people that frequent this type of forum have experienced bullying to one degree or another -- myself included (think what happened to Taylor, including the frequency of events; but without a 'lead' bully and without anything as extreme as the Locker... though starting LONG before high school; I was just the one everyone picked on, and got a similar level of indifference from those in authority) -- but seriously? The whole 'come down on Emma like the hand of God, for she is forever irredeemable because of one set of actions she took that in the end will only make up like 3-4% of her total lifespan' spiel? It makes you sound like the type of person who's gonna snap and go on a rampage somewhere (note this is NOT limited to things like shootings, it could also be things like beating someone half to death in a rage).

The more you let your bullies affect you, the more power you give to them. Learn from the lessons of Taylor: When she saw Emma later in the story... She just didn't care about her; she had gotten over Emma, and the bullying she had been put through. It just didn't matter anymore.

 

[edale]

Oh, and Flabbyknight.

I think there was a miscommunication somewhere. I thought, and I assume at least some others though, we were talking to dad / Hollow Man / Diviner about using the time reversion spell to fix her, when to revert her to, and what the likely repercussions of that would be. Not just dropping by and saying "oh, Emma's still alive btw, thought you should know."

I had thought we were still trying to decide if she should use it or not, and when to set it for, and seeking advice about that from said characters. We HAD agreed not to use the crystal for now.

Or am I just jumping the gun, and that was just going to be the in next chapter? Since it looks like there's room for the conversation to continue...

 

[Snake/Eater]

So why do you, and some unnamed others, insist on painting Emma as the most evil character in Worm, save Jack Slash himself?

Click to shrink...

I'm not part of the Emma is the anti group, but i'm trying look for a solution and no else is stepping to the challenge.

• there are people who want Emma to stay damaged, this is the majority
• there people who want Emma to have a second chance at life, this is sadly the minority.
• I want Emma to be cured, but i doubt that will ever come to pass. so I'm trying to create options that appeal to both groups that both want her whole but punished.

 

[edale]

I'm not part of the Emma is the anti group, but i'm trying look for a solution and no else is stepping to the challenge.

• there are people who want Emma to stay damaged, this is the majority
• there people who want Emma to have a second chance at life, this is sadly the minority.
• I want Emma to be cured, but i doubt that will ever come to pass. so I'm trying to create options that appeal to both groups that both want her whole but punished.

Click to shrink...

You fail at logic... and common sense. ESPECIALLY if you're being serious.

And to my knowledge, the majority has NOT said not to use the time-reversal ritual, just the crystal.

 

[OverReactionGuy]

That's Contessa, not Lisa.

Click to shrink...

No, Lisa could divine what Emma says with her power and use it to speak back. If she can figure out what an endbringer is, she could figure out what the hell Emma is saying.

 

[Snake/Eater]

You fail at logic... and common sense. ESPECIALLY if you're being serious.

And to my knowledge, the majority has NOT said not to use the time-reversal ritual, just the crystal.

Click to shrink...

Coming from you, isn't that like the pot calling the kettle black.

 

[edale]

Coming from you, isn't that like the pot calling the kettle black.

Click to shrink...

I bow to the master.

 

[doomlord9]

As for people not wanting to cure her, well. I've read through some of the comments and they kinda made me shake my head.

The bullying wasn't worth S9 candidacy... but that is another discussion all together that probably doesn't belong here.

I honestly only seen that level of fanon hatred for Akane from Ranma or Sakura from naruto.

Click to shrink...

So why do you, and some unnamed others, insist on painting Emma as the most evil character in Worm, save Jack Slash himself?

Click to shrink...

I do not understand why people can't understand this. The locker itself is what pushes Emma from dedicated bully into S9 candidate.

Let's break it down.

First thing required was she needed the used sanitary products. This was not a one day job, or even a one week job. The locker was filled over half-way full, but closer to all the way full since the muck was in her face even though it had the entire holday to settle, and since not every girl would be menstruating at the same time, she would have to patiently collect what little were thrown away over a long period of time. Given that in my experience many girls flush their tampons and some pads that are designed for it, this would have been rather slow so I'll say a 2-week time span at bare minimum, probably closer to a the full time they backed off on Taylor was spent collecting for that one act which is a couple months.

Seriously, think about that. She would have to have been collecting used tampons and pads, putting them in a bag, and letting them rot all for months. And for what? To delude herself that she is stronger than Taylor for some absolutely insane reason that only makes sense in her mind?

The locker alone would have Jack Slash approving even though it failed to kill Taylor, and make no mistake is WAS a murder attempt even if none of the Trio thought it was. Taylor should not have survived the locker at all because it was lethal is multiple different ways.

First off the locker being too small means she was compressed, which is well documented to cause blood clots to form in the legs. This is not an 'oh that's awful but good thing it's not anything serious' reaction, blood clots in the legs are insanely dangerous, enough so that if you knew you have a clot in your leg somehow, it wouldn't be a bad idea to tourniquet the leg and get to a hospital ASAP so that they could surgically remove it. The are dangerous because the return vessels from the legs are major veins, very wide and on a direct route to the heart. This means that if a clot comes loose in the legs, it will make it to the heart completely intact.

This alone isn't a problem but the fact that 100% of the blood the heart pumps goes directly into the lungs, which does NOT have large open veins and in fact has the smallest blood vessels in the body, is where the problem happens. The clot hits those nice small vessels and being intact, blocks them off entirely. Now you can have up to an entire lung completely non-functional, and if more than one clot broke lose then both lungs could have no blood pumping to them at all.

This leaves the victim to asphyxiate with a completely unobstructed respiratory system because no oxygen can make it to new blood to be pumped. This is a 100% lethal condition because brain damage will begin within 5 minutes and total brain death will be around the 10 minute mark, and there is absolutely nothing that can be done because of where the blockages are occurring, barring Panacea being right there when it happens.

Next we have the disease potential. She was shoved into and left marinated in rotting menstrual blood, which contains bits of the uterine lining which is an insanely fertile breeding ground for bacteria, means she could have easy gotten blood poisoning and her entire blood stream could have been turned septic within as little as 30 minutes if she had even a small scratch to let the rampantly reproducing diseases in.

Then we have the air quality. She was pushed in face first and there was no room to turn around to get to the vents for fresh air. Rotting matter like that produces alot of methane and given Taylor's panic she would have rapidly used up what little oxygen was left, leaving nothing but a miasma of methane and CO2 for her to breathe in as little as 5 minutes given the size of the locker and her own body blocking any form of air flow from the vents.

Make no mistake, any reasonable court would declare the locker incident as attempted murder, conspiracy to commit murder, unlawful imprisonment, and several other things that I know I'm not remembering right now.

Now, given the sheer amount of effort, time, and dedication this took, would Jack Slash approve of Emma for the locker incident?

Yes, he would be delighted to meet such a dedicated murderous psychopath. Don't think that because she only targeted a single person that the severity of her actions were not equal to what the S9 get up to in their spare time.

Besides, Emma wasn't in full control of her actions when she contacted the bee spirit and now she is even more mentally insane and can only speak in bee.

Click to shrink...

I've discounted that because flabby explained that she was little more than a sock-puppet from the second she contacted the hive, now I'm back down to merely loathing her for her canon actions rather than for her trying to become an unrestrained Nilbog imprsonator.

I mean, I know bullying can be a trigger for some people, in fact for a LOT of the people that frequent this type of forum have experienced bullying to one degree or another -- myself included (think what happened to Taylor, including the frequency of events; but without a 'lead' bully and without anything as extreme as the Locker... though starting LONG before high school; I was just the one everyone picked on, and got a similar level of indifference from those in authority) -- but seriously? The whole 'come down on Emma like the hand of God, for she is forever irredeemable because of one set of actions she took that in the end will only make up like 3-4% of her total lifespan' spiel? It makes you sound like the type of person who's gonna snap and go on a rampage somewhere (note this is NOT limited to things like shootings, it could also be things like beating someone half to death in a rage).

Click to shrink...

This actually is not a factor for me. I had a couple people attempt to do so but by the time they got to me I was already deep into my teenage apathy and just could not give a fuck about them, making them get bored and find someone else.

What is getting to me is that people seem to be glossing over what Emma has done, like she was just a mischievous scamp and the juice scene was the worst thing she did.

That and the situation stinks of the "You tried to kill everyone we knew, me personally, and betrayed everyone multiple times but don't worry, because you're my friend and I'm a good person I'll convince everyone to forgive you...again, even though this is the 3rd time and you betrayed us those first two times as well" shonen bullshit that makes me utterly disregard Naruto canon as the work of a hack prepubescent fanfiction writer.

That situation alone is what set me off in the first place because it should NOT have happened.

Beyond offending my sensibilities, it was mindbogglingly stupid. By keeping her alive we are now sitting on a PR nuke worse than Sophia ever was for the PRT, and we already don't have the best reputation so this is something the will squee in happiness about because we have essentially handed them a free pass to paint us as whatever they want.

And for what? There is no moral high ground gained, there is no recovering her without extreme amounts of effort that isn't worth the time or resources for the negative gain having Emma around will be even in her right mind, and even if she does recover then we promptly have to deal with Canon Emma all over again. Even if it sends her back to before the ABB incident, exactly how are we planning on explaining her actions in the time-frame she is missing? The fact that she dedicated two years of her life torturing Taylor until she became Necros, then contacted an eldritch being and sacrificed her entire family and hundreds of others with plans to do the same to the whole world?

Emma doesn't have very much mental fortitude, she would just break, go insane again, and then we have to deal with that as well.

Saving Emma quite honestly has made this entire thing so much less interesting because for the foreseeable future, the whole thing is effectively about Sasuke Emma as the bleeding heart voters do everything in their power to help Sasuke Emma recover, just like the majority of Naruto fics I have dropped like the trash they became, including what is jokingly called canon.

My preferred solution to this is what I have wanted ever since Emma was revealed as the current protagonist. That is for Emma to just not be involved in this quest anymore, not even tangentially. The simplest way to have that happen would have been to just kill the omnicidal sock-puppet instead of having to deal with all of this extra bullshit for who knows how long, and we're not actually doing anything interesting during this time either because it's all focused on the husk that used to be Emma and all the shit that comes with having it around.

I don't think I'm alone in these feelings either if the large drop in the number of people actually voting since we saved her is any indication.

The more you let your bullies affect you, the more power you give to them. Learn from the lessons of Taylor: When she saw Emma later in the story... She just didn't care about her; she had gotten over Emma, and the bullying she had been put through. It just didn't matter anymore.

Click to shrink...

Why yes, this is the best plan, and the entire reason this whole thing pisses me off so much.

Because guess what we are explicitly not doing? We are not helping Taylor get over her conflicted feelings towards Emma at all, in fact this is just making it worse because now she has to constantly deal with the ruined husk of what was once her friend and constantly be reminded of what they had, what Emma then did to her specifically, and then what Emma did that forced Taylor to make her like she is right now.

There was a reason I called Emma the 'gangrenous festering wound on Taylor's psyche' because that is what she is. Everything about her degrades Taylor's mental fortitude and it was only when she finally got too busy in canon to even think about Emma that she finally started to recover.

Something that will not happen here because we decided to bring her back with us, keeping the damage fresh is Taylor's mind and making her that much less likely to be stable if she ever does surface as well as potentially destroying everything we have done thus far.

Something that would have been quite simple if we only had to deal with Taylor mourning over the corpse of what was once her friend and the recovering as that is the entire purpose of mourning.

THAT is what is pissing me off about this whole thing so much.

That's Contessa, not Lisa.

Click to shrink...

No, Lisa could divine what Emma says with her power and use it to speak back. If she can figure out what an endbringer is, she could figure out what the hell Emma is saying.

Click to shrink...

Lisa would be able to discover what Emma was trying to say, however she would not be able to communicate back.

Contessa would be able to get full 2-way communication like she did with Taylor at the end when no longer even had the brain structures required to understand most forms of communication.

 

[GiftofLove]

Lisa would be able to discover what Emma was trying to say, however she would not be able to communicate back.

Click to shrink...

Emma seemingly understands English, but can't speak it.

Also, every one of those points is good. Have many like.

 

[OverReactionGuy]

Yes, he would be delighted to meet such a dedicated murderous psychopath. Don't think that because she only targeted a single person that the severity of her actions were not equal to what the S9 get up to in their spare time.

Click to shrink...

Dude, when I said that this was not place to talk discuss it, I meant it. I made a thread to discuss canon events like this shit to prevent it from cluttering up other threads.

And besides, the S9 did worse, much much worse than Emma. Stuff that would have made the locker incident look like a child's game. So no, she is not in fact worthy of s9 candidacy. Her mentally is weak, her torture tactics are weak, and for the fact that she doesn't have god damn powers and thus not worth jacks time.

Besides that, the locker wasn't fatal. I know it should have been probably, I know you listed points leading to it supposed to be fatal. But it wasn't.

It wasn't in this story, it wasn't in over 400 other fanfics, and it wasn't in canon.

Therefore it wasn't fatal as concluded by the fanbase and canon. With the exception of like 4 fanfics. One had her die because of an allergy of peanut butter. One had her die because she was stabbed with a pencil or something in her pocket. And I don't know how she died in Atomement and I don't care.

She was also only in there for a couple hours, 4 at the most.

I'm not trying to undersell Emma's actions, but I'm also not overselling the damn thing.

I agree that it should have had a murder charge to it. But the fact that they actually were not trying to murder Taylor and the fact that they didn't know that it could kill Taylor would have probably made it not a murder charge. Just accidental death.

Honestly I am just sick and tired of reading through posts that scream for Emma's death/ torture/ mindrape/ shit like that. It gets old, really fucking old reading through dozens of post containing such hatred for one character.

It also gets really ugly because half the time the posters suggest ways that are more fucked up than what Emma ever did, that would make Jack Fucking Slash green with envy everytime this shit is brought up in the first place.

Which makes me want to not meet any of those posters in a dark alley. Though I wouldn't want to meet anyone in a dark alley in the first place.

-edit-

Also Emma isn't a murderous little psychopath. She doesn't go out of her way to murder people. She probably never murdered someone at all but herself. She is just a stupid, broken little girl clinging to a stupid fucking philosophy that was made up on the spot by another stupid broken little girl.

 

[edale]

I'm not trying to undersell Emma's actions, but I'm also not overselling the damn thing.

Click to shrink...

This. And doomlord9... you are so massively overselling it that you make used car salesmen green with envy.

IRL people do worse than what Emma did on a regular basis, and are treated with less hostility.

Hell, in Brockton Bay alone there are multiple people who do worse. Coil, Kaiser, Skidmark (especially Skidmark, anything Emma did to Taylor pales at what he put Squealer through to get her to the point she was at in canon), Hookwolf. Most of them seem to get a pass on the shear benefit of the majority of their crimes only being alluded to, rather than outright stated.

 

[doomlord9]

This. And doomlord9... you are so massively overselling it that you make used car salesmen green with envy.

IRL people do worse than what Emma did on a regular basis, and are treated with less hostility.

Click to shrink...

And that is why I usually don't watch the news, it pisses me off that people like that hide behind flimsy protections put in place by others to protect themselves from their own crimes. I absolutely despise them, the people protecting them, and the bleeding heart retards who swallow the BS being fed to them that lets them get away with it.

This is not just a focus purely on Emma the character, although that does have a factor in it as I do like Taylor as a character, it is who she is and what she represents.

Hell, in Brockton Bay alone there are multiple people who do worse. Coil, Kaiser, Skidmark (especially Skidmark, anything Emma did to Taylor pales at what he put Squealer through to get her to the point she was at in canon), Hookwolf. Most of them seem to get a pass on the shear benefit of the majority of their crimes only being alluded to, rather than outright stated.

Click to shrink...

And what makes you think my reaction to them is any different? There was a reason my vote for Skidmark was 'kill him in his sleep'.

Just because other people are worse does not mean she gets a pass due to having a more narrow focus, she goes right up there on the firing line with them.

I am focusing on her because she is who is being discussed and is the one riling me up at this point in time. If those individuals came up in a similar situation, I would have a similar reaction.

Let's boil it down to a single statement.

Would the S9 think up and do something like the locker incident and enjoy it?

Yes, they would.

Now, reverse that. Would the S9 approve of Emma planning and going through with the locker incident?

Yes, they would.

It still wouldn't end well for her because nobody that has their attention comes out of it in good condition, the best she could hope for is being given to Bonesaw as a guinea pig to see if they can't give her some powers to make her a proper member, but that act alone puts them on their radar and the same level as them.

Smaller scale yes, but there is no real difference between an E88/Nazi/KKK guy burning a single black/jew/gay because they personally offended them and an E88/Nazi/KKK guy who burns down an apartment building full of their preferred targets.

Just because one is larger scale does not mean the smaller scale ones are not just as bad, they just get a slightly smaller sentence due to the smaller scale, but the sentence itself is generally the same.

 

[Cutesquid]

When they came to a place called the Skull, there they crucified him, along with the criminals – one on his right, the other on his left, Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."

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Jesus believed in forgiveness.

Emma is like a crippled toddler now. She can't hurt anyone and she doesn't have any marbles left to know what she did.

So there's no reason, ethical or practical, for a vendetta against her. Not anymore.