Esquestria: The House of the Sun - A pony cultist experience

[angelsadvocate666]

Look, Old Warriors have shit all on Gamers nowadays. We've raised an entire generation on war-games, political simulations, social engineering, and munchkinry lessons and called it entertainment.

 

[Xoden]

On the other other hand, it's also explicitly about "testing her actual martial skill". So..

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Picking appropriate weapons is a very actual martial skill. Though even just using it "to instantly inflict a single wound" could be challenging when facing Biedde.

 

[angelsadvocate666]

You know, I think my favorite part of Biedde is that he doesn't have a friendship mission. We're not going to be forced to look for some artifact, or random book, or a person to kill or anything to keep him around. Hell, even if we run out of money we can just give him time for his religious duties, though that's probably less than optimal.

It's nice to not have another AP sink, and the automatic free guarding saves us even more time since we won't be worrying about Copper or some other enemy randomly murking us when we have no protection.

Also, wow, unless you're an Edge specialist Biedde has a terrifying chance of just… killing ponies in one round. With the maximum Influence he would have a +120, so unless you're a master throwing at least +21, he just needs to match you roll for roll to deal 4 damage in a round.

 

[Sveta08]

You know, I think my favorite part of Biedde is that he doesn't have a friendship mission. We're not going to be forced to look for some artifact, or random book, or a person to kill or anything to keep him around. Hell, even if we run out of money we can just give him time for his religious duties, though that's probably less than optimal.

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Yup!
Shoot, if you want to look at it that way, Rarity pays for Biedde being summoned with her job.

 

[DelightedOne]

You know, I think my favorite part of Biedde is that he doesn't have a friendship mission. We're not going to be forced to look for some artifact, or random book, or a person to kill or anything to keep him around. Hell, even if we run out of money we can just give him time for his religious duties, though that's probably less than optimal.

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That is good mechanical wise, but narrative wise it is very upsetting having confirmation we have someone's slave working for us(ah, when people tried to justify the Colonel saying he wasn't a tyrant or that he wouldn't get slaves even when Comet Feet was almost taken by him).

We... probably shouldn't let him do religious duties. A Name preaching about an Hour or their ideals does not sound like a good idea(Mareinette is a good example of that) and the Colonel is also not the best Hour to have being more active in the Wake.

 

[Earth-Destroyer]

I figure he would be restoring the Edge shrines, you can find in the Exile DLC.

 

[Venerable Ro]

That is good mechanical wise, but narrative wise it is very upsetting having confirmation we have someone's slave working for us(ah, when people tried to justify the Colonel saying he wasn't a tyrant or that he wouldn't get slaves even when Comet Feet was almost taken by him).

We... probably shouldn't let him do religious duties. A Name preaching about an Hour or their ideals does not sound like a good idea(Mareinette is a good example of that) and the Colonel is also not the best Hour to have being more active in the Wake.

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An immortal serving a god of conflict specifically defined by his attention to duty and antipathy towards revolutionaries, Biedde's loyalties were always going to be ironclad and non-negotiable. Honestly I'd rather have The Colonel than The Lionsmith, less monsters this way, and the active combat comes from both of them striving against each other. I don't believe it's in the Colonel's nature to start conflict, he's the one that tries to end it.

 

[Iustus Vitea]

We know from Issus, and a few more things besides, that the Hours while defined by their aspects and concepts aren't only that. Mortals have the most slack while Hours have the least but that doesn't mean it isn't there or that what they are described as is all that they are. In his own way the Colonel cared for the Lionsmith and he most likely cares for the Mother of Ants too but beyond all of that I really don't think the Hour of duty would take a Name as a slave. No I think Biedde is either a willing slave (as is almost every Name really, it's just the Colonel's bindings are most apparent and most tight) of the Colonel or merely a slave to his nature/duty. Which, again, every Name is.

 

[Turamarth]

[X] [BIEDDE] Ask for an Influence of Edge.

Does this bring you joy? sure, it's a neat little thing in the moment but when you stop to look theres nothing there to enjoy.

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Depending on the image, it does bring me joy. I've created some AI images that I really like, and I've seen many more from others that I've really enjoyed. It doesn't matter that much to me how an image was created.

If you're feeling creative, pick up a pen.
The best time to start is now.

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Unfortunately, I have neither the time nor the ability (as my art lessons at school showed me).

 

[Venerable Ro]

We know from Issus, and a few more things besides, that the Hours while defined by their aspects and concepts aren't only that. Mortals have the most slack while Hours have the least but that doesn't mean it isn't there or that what they are described as is all that they are. In his own way the Colonel cared for the Lionsmith and he most likely cares for the Mother of Ants too but beyond all of that I really don't think the Hour of duty would take a Name as a slave. No I think Biedde is either a willing slave (as is almost every Name really, it's just the Colonel's bindings are most apparent and most tight) of the Colonel or merely a slave to his nature/duty. Which, again, every Name is.

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It's worth contemplating how much of The Colonel's nature is defined by his conflict with The Lionsmith. Originally The Colonel was Edge, of course, and also Moth due to his willingness to Change and Adapt in order to overcome his enemy The Seven-Coiled. Likewise I would surmise this is where his nature as a hunter of monsters comes from. However, his specific association with order and duty came later I think. The Lionsmith is Edge and Forge, Forge due to his breaking of his oath/loyalty/sword and by extension his nature as a rebel. The Rebel, inscribed into his bones by the nature of his ascension as it is with every Hour.

Therefore, since his Enemy is the Rebel, the Colonel by definition must be the Authority. Likewise, since The Lionsmith is the Oathbreaker, The Colonel must be the one who demands all oaths be upheld.

As a final note, I believe adepts naturally gravitate towards service to the Hours most aligned to them, hence the whole business of temptations in the base game and the various other win conditions in the expansions. Therefore those who seek and find meaning in sworn service are the ones who would seek out The Colonel, as we did indeed see with Comet Feet, who was looking for a reason to, well, be. Lots of callings swear lifetime oaths, Biedde would probably describe his service as a duty and a vocation, in the old sense.

Edit: What's wrong with me, The Colonel isn't Moth... Just ignore that part, the rest of it's solid though.

 

[angelsadvocate666]

The Colonel was Edge, of course, and also Moth due to his willingness to Change and Adapt

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…What are you talking about? The Colonel is Edge/Lantern/Winter. I don't recall him ever having been Moth.

 

[Venerable Ro]

…What are you talking about? The Colonel is Edge/Lantern/Winter. I don't recall him ever having been Moth.

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You're right, I completely threw that shoe, total conceptual failure. Dishonor on myself, my family, and my cow.

 

[angelsadvocate666]

On the other hand, a Moth/Edge Hour would be really fucking cool.

Actually, with both of the rivals being triple aspected—Lionsmith is Edge/Heart/Forge IIRC—I'm kinda imagining Velvet as an Edge Hour. More specifically, Edge/Moth/SH. I wonder what her thematic would be in that case.

 

[DelightedOne]

Actually, with both of the rivals being triple aspected—Lionsmith is Edge/Heart/Forge IIRC—I'm kinda imagining Velvet as an Edge Hour. More specifically, Edge/Moth/SH. I wonder what her thematic would be in that case.

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Chaos somehow helping random actions succeed? With past actions compounding to build better situations?

Maybe she would be like: I did this, now my enemies are burning in Wolf fire. Did I plan this? Of course not. Do I know what I'm doing? Nope.
But I still win and cause a lot of death and destruction as a consequence.

 

[Venerable Ro]

On the other hand, a Moth/Edge Hour would be really fucking cool.

Actually, with both of the rivals being triple aspected—Lionsmith is Edge/Heart/Forge IIRC—I'm kinda imagining Velvet as an Edge Hour. More specifically, Edge/Moth/SH. I wonder what her thematic would be in that case.

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I honestly thought he was Moth because the way he beat the Seven-Coiled was such a Moth thing to do, changing himself until his enemy couldn't hurt him.

Velvet is all about understanding and adapting to challenges, victory through expertise rather than brute force. She's also one to make friends out of enemies, or at least accrue friends rather than enemies. I'd definitely peg her as a Moth hour with Edge and Secret Histories (Or Rose if you prefer BoH's handling) as secondary aspects.

 

[angelsadvocate666]

Ah, sort of a "I don't want to destroy the world, or even really achieve any particular goal. I just stir the pot to keep people sharp, and have fun while doing it.

Sort of a Tzeentch-like god I guess, where their "plan" is basically every possible end state can count as a win if you just look at it in the right way.

I'd definitely peg her as a Moth hour with Edge and Secret Histories (Or Rose if you prefer BoH's handling) as secondary aspects.

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Nah, SH is her main, because it's her brand, though Moth is almost definitely a secondary, and Edge would make sense for the third, which is why it occured to me. Hell, it might even be one of our first few Sacraments. If the Influence keeps winning it will at the very least be our second highest Lore.

 

[Talon Tiger Dino]

If the Key does end up being a viable way to strip a Wound for the Sacrament, I'd be willing to drop an action in order to throw hooves immediately while under that Max Influence. Let's fucking do this Grandpa, I got an idiot stallion to absolutely flex on this turn.

 

[DelightedOne]

That would be fun and at least Comet wouldn't think we came to kill him for a Sacrament. He would still think we came to kill him, but for another reason.

 

[Bakkasama]

On the other hand, a Moth/Edge Hour would be really fucking cool.

Actually, with both of the rivals being triple aspected—Lionsmith is Edge/Heart/Forge IIRC—I'm kinda imagining Velvet as an Edge Hour. More specifically, Edge/Moth/SH. I wonder what her thematic would be in that case.

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The Hour of "Ooops". Great tragedies follow in her wake, a series of coincidences to convenient to be such and she has no freaking idea how they happened. The Colonel is the Hour of duty, the Lionsmith of betrayal and the Covers of winging it and making it look intentional.

 

[Cochimetl]

The four roots of victory are Cunning, Strength, Agony and Accident.

-[BIEDDE] There is something in Canterlot that you simply must find. Look for it.

 

[angelsadvocate666]

The four roots of victory are Cunning, Strength, Agony and Accident.

-[BIEDDE] There is something in Canterlot that you simply must find. Look for it.

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I would call it Luck or Fortune rather than Accident. And to be fair, the best generals really should acknowledge that sometimes sheer dumb luck and the conditions of the fight carry through more than any amount of good planning or raw strength.

Also then we could abuse the saying "Fortune favors the Bold."

 

[Pittauro]

WE DIDN'T EVEN NEED THE FUCKING REAGENT. Why the fuck Velvet's bullshit luck is so random?

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when I see those rolls, I console myself that, you know, butterfly effect. If we didn't use the edge reagent maybe Bird would have rolled a couple seconds earlier or later, resulting in a different roll.

Oh my glob he does free guard actions? And we can't befriend him? And we can pay for him to stay?
Murder Grandpa is the best, there, I said it.

But I am sad we can't save him from the Colonel like Comet Feet.

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It's sad that we can't befriend him, but don't say his situation is sad. We don't even know what he thinks of it.

For all we know he's perfectly fine being the Colonel's soldier/slave.

I mean, the difference is basically 100 bits for two actions—since one of the three is spent—or 120 for two. Except the 120 bits means we not only get those actions immediately, but also that we don't lose the guard action in the meantime.

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it's not even really 120 for two. it's 120 for FOUR.

It's just that two of the four are always guard actions... but 60 bits for 1 guard action (from someone that at max power is stronger than Celestia) IN ADDITION to an extra action that can be either him attacking someone for us (COPPER, WINDY, EXPEDITIONS FULL OF COMBAT) OR even just a "our level" edge lesson, which will soon be lvl 5, and would in book form be worth 120 bits...)...

well, it's an extremely good deal IF we can afford it.

We really need to get in touch with Steppes to sell our unneeded loot for us though, or for Cadance to give us some more funds. Expenses are piling up, and while we can afford 60 bits per turn on Biedde (we get 160 income, 40 to 60 from Rarity, and then 100+ from Rarity every 3 turns on average, so conservatively something like 230 or 240 bits per turn on average...), that's still quite a bit.

In short, Biedde eats a full 4th of our income to keep. It's worth it, and we can save some money by paying the "100 bits for 2 turns + 1 turn downtime", but ideally we won't do that often.

If we can afford keeping him, AND are not going to use him for anything else, we might even reach Edge 6 and even 7 (assuming quest lasts that long, which basically requires it to continue post-tricuspid).

...fun fact: Comet has +39 combat without AotL and influences. 10 more than us.

He also has 4 health.

This means that, IF WE WANT TO, we can basically gift him an Edge Sacrament. All he and us need to do is use Biedde's action on giving him an influence, AND for him to use some AotL rituals.

with 4 health, he should be able to do 1 health damage even without AotL if he used the Influence.

now, do we want to do that? I'm not against it, IF the talk with him goes well this turn AND he's still interested AND he can offer us something worthwhile in exchange.

The cost to us is fairly low, really. Biedde's action for one turn.

Ooooooooh, what do you guys think the odds of Comet succeeding at Biedde's Sacrament would be? I wouldn't want to do it before his secondary Lore is revealed, but I am curious as to the math.

Oh! Shining Armor too! I bet he's got an Edge Affinity as well!

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if we give him Biedde's influence for the attempt, he's near certain to make it. He has better odds than US, really, as he has +10 combat and +2 health compared to us (+1 if we first heal the scar).

It has been stated that Velvet just thinks that equalizing Grail levels will make Rarity no longer a minion. She's in denial about the situation.

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well, to be fair there ARE some things Rarity likely wouldn't do for us.

Things like, say, Asking her to kill Sweetie Belle for no reason.

so, the kind of things we'd never ask her to do.

so... yeah, she's EFFECTIVELY a minion. So is Jade.

Fluttershy I'd argue is ACTUALLY just a Confidant though, and so is Cadance.

Considering that his base roll for combat is +25 I'd say he'd have a very good shot, especially with AotL and a max Influence. If he's Edge primary (and therefore viable for Biedde's Sacrament) then he'd be rolling +45 base, +65 with AotL, and +105 with both AotL and max Edge Influence.

Shining Armor has the potential to be a very scary combatant if he's Edge primary.

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Very true.

though there's a decent chance Shining is Edge secondary instead of primary, which would make him a fair bit less impressive.

Then again I imagine if he was, say, Heart primary, his realization would likely translate to strengthening his shield barriers, maybe as a "apply heart to combat only for the purpose of defending" talent?

I do have to say, I also find the differences in how Biedde appears to Velvet between the Wake and the Mansus interesting. And I think that the main difference is that, well… he's an ally now. He's a subordinate. So of course he's not going to seem dangerous, or even scary, to someone who he is now bound to guard. All of his sharp edges are pointed away.

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a good way to put it.

and the way Steppes was terrified shows how it looks us from the knife's pointy end.

Now that we can see Baldomare's Lantern Sacrament, I think it's actually fairly "moral", in the sense that we would technically just need to blow the Bits required for two Mares-in-the-Light in order to do it, which is a good bit better than killing someone to drain them of the information their bodies and brains contain. If we do have the time for a second Sacrament after the SH one, Lantern with Baldomare would be a good choice.

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We've been able to see it for some time, but yes, it's relatively simple.

That said, we're closer to Knock and Edge than Lantern, as for Knock we're 3/4 scraps, for Edge 2/4 (and can get them both with an influence, which we ALSO need for Biedde's test anyway so we can do both at the same time) and for Lantern we're 0/4 (though we can get 2 from an influence from Baldomare at once).

I mean, we don't even really need Mares. We could send DoA and either of our other two Names. It doesn't cost their actions after all. It's pretty much just a question of having the scraps and a free Baldomare action.

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True, though Name actions are more valuable.

Frankly Baldomare Sacrament is kind of useless now, we can just pay scholars to translate stuff, if not just give the books to Cadance, and have her people translate it for free, she can call it the best experts in Equestra easily. We are in the upper echelons of power for a major country, stuff like tranlating text is for people with specialized knowledge, lower on the overall totem poll.

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we can't yet "use" Cadance for favours, and even so having scholars translate for us is a bit problematic as the books can contain sensitive stuff.

Also some languages are just likely to be forgotten, especially for the highest rank books.

That said... we're not aiming for Baldomare Sacrament because we expect it to be better, but mostly because it's less morally problematic. no sacrifice for it, you see.

Good fripping luck finding someone who can read Deep Mandic, or Fucine, or Killasimi. Or for that matter, explaining anything written in such languages. So far we've piddled around gleaning scraps of enlightenment from common sources, but now we're on the cusp of needing to find stranger insights. Universal comprehension would save us so much time, and allow us to maintain information security. Honestly, right now I'm pretty sure using our Lantern realization to comprehend books is giving us a malus or limited returns, that journal probably would have been even more effective if we could read it outright.

Ultimately though, we can't reach greater heights without first achieving the sacrament, so it needs doing.

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Nah, our realization mechanically just helps us study more stuff at once, nothing more, nothing less. 3 books, 2 artifacts, or 1 book and 1 artifact for one action.

I admittedly don't remember how many books/artifacts we could read BEFORE Lantern 3 though.


In any case, the "Baldomare Lantern let us bypass deciphering rolls" is only our guess. For all we know it outright removes the need for study rolls!

Called it, pure distilled Yamamoto energy, [One Who Is Terrible].

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As I said, Old Man Genocide.

Velvet: Wait, so you guard my family automatically?
Biedde: That is the bare minimum of what I do, yes.
Velvet: Sir, I don't care what else you can do, just please never leave!

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well, we DO Care, but just that alone would make him worth the cost!

Edge didn't help us in the red church last time. It seems silly to assume it will now? Unless bird said otherwise. And I missed it.

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eh, we're going deeper, and there WAS a roll or two using edge I think.

There.
Now that I've had a snack, expressed the weird expression about Biedde, let's move onto what we want him to do.

I see two options.
The first, is the one most people tend to be leaning right now. Ask for an Influence of Edge. It's useful, we are Manus exploring, and it gives flavor to the interaction with Comet.
The second, is sending Biedde to search for the outsider in Canterlot. This is something that needs to happen, and while, yes, we can expect Baldomare to get like... 70% of the way there, having the first 30% or so done for us more or less freely is very very useful.

Personally, I lean towards having him searching for the Outsider.
Thoughts from y'all?

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Sending Biedde to do that feels a bit like a waste, but I'm not SUPER opposed to it.

there's also option 3 though, send him to find expedition sites. Or to scout for Copper's Cult.



aaand I'll post this while I'm reading the rest!

 

[Bakkasama]

I would call it Luck or Fortune rather than Accident. And to be fair, the best generals really should acknowledge that sometimes sheer dumb luck and the conditions of the fight carry through more than any amount of good planning or raw strength.

Also then we could abuse the saying "Fortune favors the Bold."

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Ok, being fair though, for all that our plans can charitably called adaptable and realistically written with a question mark at the end, we do try to stack the deck as much as we can whenever we actually do anything. That is neither fortune nor boldness.

 

[angelsadvocate666]

True, though Name actions are more valuable.

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Uh… that doesn't matter? Like I said, it doesn't cost the actions of who we send at all except Baldomare herself, and that's true either way.

The expedition will not cost you funds, nor will they cost actions from the followers. But it will cost one action from Baldomare herself.

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See?

I admittedly don't remember how many books/artifacts we could read BEFORE Lantern 3 though.

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2 books or 1 artifact.

Ok, being fair though, for all that our plans can charitably called adaptable and realistically written with a question mark at the end, we do try to stack the deck as much as we can whenever we actually do anything. That is neither fortune nor boldness.

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Hey now, boldness doesn't mean being dumb. Even if we stack the deck, we're still taking some pretty dangerous actions. A gamble is a gamble, however tilted the odds.

 

[Earth-Destroyer]

we can't yet "use" Cadance for favours, and even so having scholars translate for us is a bit problematic as the books can contain sensitive stuff.

Also some languages are just likely to be forgotten, especially for the highest rank books.

That said... we're not aiming for Baldomare Sacrament because we expect it to be better, but mostly because it's less morally problematic. no sacrifice for it, you see.

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A meaningless reason, Baldomare Sacrament is outright inferior to Velvet's personal. And we will soon have an unending supply of murders, cultists, and other problems cases filling our jail cells. And no translating the books either does nothing as the pony is not read into the lores, or they are and still nothing happens, as books don't matter until Velvet reads them. Being able to get stuff from Books is Velvet's special power, as the loremaster.

 

[Sveta08]

Uh… that doesn't matter? Like I said, it doesn't cost the actions of who we send at all except Baldomare herself, and that's true either way.

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Hilariously, I've been thinking on that. And, you know?

We could just send Baldomare, Ax, and Biedde when that time comes. That's near assured to handle.... Anything on that side.

 

[DelightedOne]

A meaningless reason, Baldomare Sacrament is outright inferior to Velvet's personal.

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Ahem. We have something that goes against that idea:

-Keep in mind that there are no superior options. The effort to achieve Sacrament through "actions of your own" will not make the direction your Lore studies take "better" or "superior".

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So yeah, there is no better option, just Sacraments we may like more than others and that may give a "flavor" that is more pleasant than the other.

Besides that, Baldomare's is easier to do and can't fail while Velvet's requires a prisoner, somewhere to keep them and it costs 1 Velvet action instead of a Baldomare one.

 

[Venerable Ro]

A meaningless reason, Baldomare Sacrament is outright inferior to Velvet's personal. And we will soon have an unending supply of murders, cultists, and other problems cases filling our jail cells. And no translating the books either does nothing as the pony is not read into the lores, or they are and still nothing happens, as books don't matter until Velvet reads them. Being able to get stuff from Books is Velvet's special power, as the loremaster.

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I'd love to know where you're getting the idea that Baldomare's option is inferior, or that there's even a difference at all beyond "method of acquisition".


For that matter, we don't have a jail cell at all, and stealing prisoners from the Bureau would be incredibly suspicious, not to mention destructively short-sighted after spending several turns improving our relations. Heck, the Bureau doesn't even have prisoners, won't have prisoners until we find someone to arrest, and we've already made arrangements with Fair Trial to expedite prisoner transfer/arraignment so we couldn't access them even if we wanted to.

On the subject of books, read into the lores or not, imagine if the translator is handed A Novel Method For Invocation & Contrition which reads:

Ingenious and rather beautiful techniques for entreating the Names of the Hours, developed by Rory Morrow, who styled himself 'the Sage-Knight'.

...The techniques rely on the unique qualities of the Ericapaean tongue. Morrow professes himself surprised that they serve better to entreat the Names of the Vagabond than the Names of Lantern or Winter Hours…

Morrow demonstrates that Preliminal Meter techniques can be used with sufficient Rose to invoke the Vagabond's Names, transforming an Enduring Reflection into 'something wider of sky.'

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Even if he wasn't read in before he would be after studying a book like that, and Baldomare affirms that translating a book counts as studying it.

 

[Earth-Destroyer]

Ahem. We have something that goes against that idea:

So yeah, there is no better option, just Sacraments we may like more than others and that may give a "flavor" that is more pleasant than the other.

Besides that, Baldomare's is easier to do and can't fail while Velvet's requires a prisoner, somewhere to keep them and it costs 1 Velvet action instead of a Baldomare one.

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All Sacraments are the same is they get you to level 5. They are all different in what power they you get which vary widely an both power and usefulness.

In case you missed it Baldomare secret history Sacrament is the ability to switch between the 3 pony races. Something that would be god like, if the situation of the quest favored it, but it does not, switching races, is just not something Velvet would befit from. But she will benefit greatly from pulling knowledge from other histories, admittedly that a super powerful ablity for any student of the Lores.

Being able to read any langue is great for a solo operative, not for a head of state that can put entire room of scholars to do that.

 

[Venerable Ro]

In case you missed it Baldomare secret history Sacrament is the ability to switch between the 3 pony races. Something that would be god like, if the situation of the quest favored it, but it does not, switching races, is just not something Velvet would befit from. But she will benefit greatly from pulling knowledge from other histories, admittedly that a super powerful ablity for any studant of the Lores.

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I did miss it, could I possibly get a citation on that?