Esquestria: The House of the Sun - A pony cultist experience

[Talon Tiger Dino]

Is it? Or are you making assumptions based on literally nothing because WE DON'T KNOW ANYTHING about what's on the other side of the mirror or what DoA wants us to do and pretending otherwise?

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We are searching for the Key to a Name's Prison. In addition to whatever the DoA is having us do. Yes, I am going to assume that they key to a Name's Imprisonment is going to be hard to find. Because it is the key to a Name's Imprisonment. And yes, this will be like going to at least be like going to a foreign country because it is a different world.

Like, my problem isn't that you think that an SH Influence might help. My issue is with that you are treating that "might" as a "definitely", despite the fact that we don't know where DoA is sending us, or what she wants us to do, or the Frangiclave's situation, or how her errand might intersect with obtaining Frangiclave, or literally anything else besides "doesn't use Knock".

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Because every search uses SH. Just like every study uses Lantern. Will the SH help with DoA's asked-for task? Maybe, maybe not. Will it help with looking for the Key? Yes. Because that is what SH does. If we had gotten the exact location of the key through our earlier scrying, this would be different. But we did not get an exact location. So we'll have to look for the thing.

 

[Maer]

Like, my problem isn't that you think that an SH Influence might help. My issue is with that you are treating that "might" as a "definitely"

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I'm sorry if it came across that way, but I've only been trying to say that SH is MORE likely to be useful than Lantern , and by a large amount given previous examples of searches ALL using SH. It's a very reasonable and informed assumption, but even calling it an assumption, it still has more prior examples providing a basis for SH being useful than Lantern does.

SH is the only Lore Influence that we have access too from Baldomare that has a high likelihood of being useful. Lantern just doesn't have that same Data from prior examples of being useful, based on what little we actually know about the Quest and our goals within it.

 

[spiderhellian]

As someone who first espoused the SH influence and argued for it, I don't think there's a need for this level of vehemence.

Remember what Bird said yesterday:

All in all, the influence channeling is intriguing. This isn't a criticism, and I will abuse the hell out of them narratively to make things more fun. But the discussion that they could be useful on DoA's Sacrament is fascinating.

Not in a bad way. But it is the mixture of "good sense" preparation (since you are heading towards with the unknown) but at the reasonably high cost of Name actions.

Again, not a criticism, but from what I recall you guys have manifested your risk aversion in other ways thus far. This is a bit of a twist from my perspective.

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Ultimately, we are explicitly going into action we know exceedingly little about.

I think if you had to choose an Influence that would be useful, SH is definitely the one you would choose. For the reasons you've mentioned.

But we don't know that they will be! And even if they are, we can't be sure it'll be SH. We can reasonably suspect, we can't be sure. (I'm reminded how confident we were the Grave expedition would use SH, to the point some suggested taking Baldomare, and it just didn't.)

There's a lot of uncertainty here, even if I agree I'd like to have it. Not least because it opens up a SH sacrament action possibility. (I don't want to keep putting that off.)

If only the snake was more talkative, if only she was more helpful, if only snakes weren't the cause of their own problems again and again and again…

If only.

 

[LieutenantSpirit]

The action is called "Through the foggy mirror." Lantern honestly seems like a strong choice given its connection to mirrors, and what better Lore than Lantern to pierce through the fog?

 

[Talon Tiger Dino]

The action is called "Through the foggy mirror." Lantern honestly seems like a strong choice given its connection to mirrors, and what better Lore than Lantern to pierce through the fog?

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Mirrors-as-Portals are also an SH-thing It's how we went to Knock Velvet's History, after all.

 

[Maer]

The action is called "Through the foggy mirror." Lantern honestly seems like a strong choice given its connection to mirrors, and what better Lore than Lantern to pierce through the fog?

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Secret Histories is what we use in the CS game to 'walk the foggy streets at night' searching for things. Meaning it has just as much precedence for helping with that 'foggy' bit as Lantern, either by piercing through (Lantern) or finding our way despite it (SH).

Which leaves my other arguments. And Lantern's relationship with Mirrors would likely only help initially, before we cross through the mirror. Which Knock is already covering. Past that? It didn't feel like there'd be much use in it.

I respect your choice, but I can't help but not understand it.

 

[Greymere]

Secret Histories is what we use in the CS game to 'walk the foggy streets at night' searching for things

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The only thing I can find regarding the explore action and fog on Frangiclave (the compendium) is this blurb:

Crowded thoroughfares by day, a fog-wrapped labyrinth by night. I'll walk the streets, seeking secrets, until I can walk no more.

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Which is when you explore using Health, not Secret Histories,

 

[Maer]

Which is when you explore using Health, not Secret Histories,

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Ah. Thank you. It's been a minute since I played the game. Regardless… that gives Heart as much relation to Fog as Lantern(albeit with fewer obvious methods of piercing through it), and less likelihood of helping than SH… I don't know if the name of the expedition is important or not.

As for the Grave… we scried that one. We didn't need to find it because we already knew the location. It makes sense SH wasn't used where it wasn't needed.

This expedition, we attempted to scry and couldn't get more than a vague confirmation that it was somewhere on the expedition. So we'll still need to search for it. And SH influence would help us avoid wasting a reroll that might be better served on a theoretical SH sacrament attempt- if we're lucky enough to finish DOA's early.

 

[Cochimetl]

I'm not sure if it's been brought up before, but I think we should really try to avoid taking Changeling prisoners.

Celestia and Daybreaker are at odds, but if there's one thing they agree on, it's their shared hatred of Changelings.

Celestia/Daybreaker vaporizing Changelings is a bonding activity. We do not want them to bond. So we should try to avoid giving them Changelings to burn.

 

[spiderhellian]

A Snake Suffers

You are the Daughter of Axes, and you're done. Not forever, but definitely for today. It was a long day, spent slithering through some of the nearby forest's least-trod spots. You had not expected to taste even a shred of hope there, let alone the blood-smell of a clue, but it was another place off your list. You had been right.

Now the night has come, and a chill wind had you return to your room before you grew sluggish, and before that hatchling grew too tired to focus on anything but her planned cookie retrieval.

After she bugged ten -- then twenty -- minutes of stories out of you, you settled into your room, and curled up on your bed with Pasharka at your side. But you weren't going to sleep. Not yet.

Instead, you counted your keys, the keyring you keep so close now splayed in front of you.

You still know the feel of each. The substance. The way they felt in the lock-that-is-not-a-lock. The way they failed.

You have thousands on your keyring -- the best of the best of the best -- and millions more discarded in the desert your summoner might call your den (though you never would).

And you know every. Single. One.

...

You also know, or could know, the passageway that is conveying that blasted muttering to your ears. But you don't care why it's happening. You just want it to shut up!

You let your tongue flicker into the air, and you can almost taste the words it carries. It's your summoner? Your blasted summoner? Did that wound leave her truly daft? It's enough to wish she was still focused on nothing but her dance! Though then the hatchling would be all damp again, and sadder than a snake in snow. Maybe not.

What is she even saying? You strain your ears for a moment.

"If I was going to a foreign country to find a well-secured secret, I would want Secret Histories on my hooves. Or maybe a good knife, in case there are guards. She didn't know about her objective (did she?), she might not know of them either. Or I could see why she of all ponies would need someone to do the talking for her. But what about all the books I wanted to read with a light by my side? And what if I need to destroy those chains myself?"

By the Axe, you'll make her stop if she gets any louder. Thankfully, she trails off there... before punctuating it all with one last exclamation.

"I just wish she'd tell me anything!"

...

Whoever she's talking about sounds like a right pain. But then again, so is your summoner. Maybe they're meant for each other. Either way, it's not your problem. Given that she's shut up now, finally.

C'mere Pasharka, it's time to sleep.

Spoiler: AN

A thought on how all the friendly plan-based bickering in Velvet's subconscious plays out in character. And knowing of at least one other character who couldn't care less. Snakes causing their own problems? Surely not!

 

[jelloloaf]

Snakes causing their own problems? Surely not!

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Nothing with scales could ever be less than eternally noble and wise. Such is the nature of the world.

 

[OurLadyOfWires]

Whoever she's talking about sounds like a right pain. But then again, so is your summoner. Maybe they're meant for each other.

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I love this. And I refuse to live in a world where this isn't canon.

Thank you for sharing! This is, definitely, how I envision Velvet planning her month whenever you all start arguing

EDIT: But really, I legitimately enjoyed Axe's point of view. I am quite fond of how she (and monsters, in general) see the world, so seeing mentions of the "hatchlings getting damp" and other things besides is always a treat!

The one """gripe""" (and put several quotation marks there) I would have with this being 100% canon is because, well, Silky isn't in the cookie-stealing mood. Filly is quite sad at this exact point of the story. But seriously 99% accurate is more than enough for the main storyline. So thank you!

 

[spiderhellian]

I love this. And I refuse to live in a world where this isn't canon.

Thank you for sharing! This is, definitely, how I envision Velvet planning her month whenever you all start arguing

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Threadmarked? Hahahaha I was not expecting that. Delightful!

But really, I legitimately enjoyed Axe's point of view. I am quite fond of how she (and monsters, in general) see the world, so seeing mentions of the "hatchlings getting damp" and other things besides is always a treat!

The one """gripe""" (and put several quotation marks there) I would have with this being 100% canon is because, well, Silky isn't in the cookie-stealing mood. Filly is quite sad at this exact point of the story. But seriously 99% accurate is more than enough for the main storyline. So thank you!

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Yeah, agreed on finding those very different perspectives quite enjoyable. Axe's voice is tough to write (I'm not ever going to try that accent, lord) but it's fun finding ways to slip in the snakiness.

Very good point about Silky I'll adjust that eventually, especially because Axe would have noticed.

 

[des-pair-2]

Celestia/Daybreaker vaporizing Changelings is a bonding activity. We do not want them to bond. So we should try to avoid giving them Changelings to burn.

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But what if we tried to convince her that keeping them alive is preferable to killing them? After all, it is better to experiment on living subjects than dead ones. That could also be point of contention between them – immediate vs delayed gratification. Do you kill them now to relieve your anger, and probably have more ponies die due to lack of tools/knowledge? Or do you kill them in the indefinite future, and have more ponies saved by using live prisoners?

 

[Talon Tiger Dino]

It's not like this is relevant for this turn anyways, our Constables are going after cultists. After that though, oof.

 

[Earth-Destroyer]

Hopefully we capture a few cultists for sacraments.

 

[DelightedOne]

But what if we tried to convince her that keeping them alive is preferable to killing them? After all, it is better to experiment on living subjects than dead ones. That could also be point of contention between them – immediate vs delayed gratification. Do you kill them now to relieve your anger, and probably have more ponies die due to lack of tools/knowledge? Or do you kill them in the indefinite future, and have more ponies saved by using live prisoners?

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So you want to try to convince someone with a voice in her head that tells her to kill(and she agrees with it and enjoys it) that killing the monsters that caused catastrophic casualties in her city and fucked up her nation can happen later?

Because going against what Celestia wants to do without having something that proves she should wait does not sound good to me.

While trying to make them disagree is a good strategy, we don't have anything that would make Celestia actually consider our advice. And she and Daybreaker already found common ground in this so it will be hard to break it.

Hmm, maybe the noble we will capture could give us some more goodwill with her.

 

[Talon Tiger Dino]

Hopefully we capture a few cultists for sacraments.

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I highly doubt we can use the Bureau's Captures for Sacraments.

 

[spiderhellian]

Hopefully we capture a few cultists for sacraments.

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We explicitly chose the option where prisoners go to the Solar Court. We're not making a few disappear, lol. If we want those Sacraments, we're going to need a prison ourselves.

 

[Maer]

I highly doubt we can use the Bureau's Captures for Sacraments.

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Not yet at least…~

Edit: Dang. Spider is right. Still, fun to think about.

 

[des-pair-2]

So you want to try to convince someone with a voice in her head that tells her to kill(and she agrees with it and enjoys it) that killing the monsters that caused catastrophic casualties in her city and fucked up her nation can happen later?

Because going against what Celestia wants to do without having something that proves she should wait does not sound good to me.

While trying to make them disagree is a good strategy, we don't have anything that would make Celestia actually consider our advice. And she and Daybreaker already found common ground in this so it will be hard to break it.

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She picked us, and other two ponies because she believed we are the best of the best. She picked us, because she trusted us to do the right thing when we have an Agency of almost unlimited power. If she is not at least going to listen to us, then we already failed in some major way.

 

[Talon Tiger Dino]

Besides, the prisoner sacraments are meh. Much rather have Velvet, Baldomare, and Axe go Lanterning. If Velvet can adopt the rebellious teenage snake then we can make Baldomare her Aunt.

Grail is just two shite choices really.

 

[spiderhellian]

Velvet, Baldomare, and Axe go Lanterning

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I'm pretty sure Baldomare's Lantern Sacrament can't involve Velvet (it states Followers) can you confirm @OurLadyOfWires?

Sending Selene seems reasonable though, or better yet a Risen

 

[DelightedOne]

She picked us, and other two ponies because she believed we are the best of the best. She picked us, because she trusted us to do the right thing when we have an Agency of almost unlimited power. If she is not at least going to listen to us, then we already failed in some major way.

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She trusts us but she is also extremely unstable(and talking with her evil self as if it is normal when Velvet could see her).

We are Above All Suspicion and that is a major advantage, but we will need some way to get closer to her if we want to influence her actions.

I believe doing our job well(like with the Master) could make Celestia favor Velvet more and take her opinion more seriously, but that we can't just talk to her, especially when we only see her when she wants to see us so any changeling talk would have to be initiated by her(and I doubt she will ask what we think that easily).

Of course, there is also the chance only Selene can actually do something about the Daybreaker situation and we need to help her in whatever plan she makes.

 

[Talon Tiger Dino]

I'm pretty sure Baldomare's Lantern Sacrament can't involve Velvet (it states Followers) can you confirm @OurLadyOfWires?

Sending Selene seems reasonable though, or better yet a Risen

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Selene is fine then, twice the Aunting!

 

[jelloloaf]

If Velvet can adopt the rebellious teenage snake then we can make Baldomare her Aunt.

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I really like this idea. As a Knock Name, Axe should have a good connection to Mothers and Aunts, especially both in combination.

 

[spiderhellian]

Talking about uncertainty, one other thing I don't like about Lightcatcher is how much it seems to bets on DoA sacrament/key taking 3 actions. There's not much flexibility unless we give up those oh-so-efficient study actions or FOs.

 

[Earth-Destroyer]

It still an expedition in the end, and getting the Key is the goal. And Ax full capabilities being unlocked will be a big deal. Honestly I want to scry for the Carcass Spark Forge 6 artifact the most. Getting that would be a big deal.

 

[Talon Tiger Dino]

It still an expedition in the end, and getting the Key is the goal. And Ax full capabilities being unlocked will be a big deal. Honestly I want to scry for the Carcass Spark Forge 6 artifact the most. Getting that would be a big deal.

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Well, getting the Key is Velvet's goal in addition to whatever the DoA wants her to do. Because again, the DoA doesn't know that they key is somewhere on the other side of the mirror.

 

[Pittauro]

Omake

1. Background

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Ashen Weaver

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A bit late, but I agree with Birds, those omake are really good. I'm a bit jealous of that Velvet... but then again, she apparently lost Jade...

I already have Diamond Tiara babysitting 2: Electric Boogaloo planned in my mind. It'll be so good.

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"good"...

Ha!

Don't lie to me. Or maybe don't lie to yourself.
Look back. No, no seriously, look back with me a moment. When? When have we and the thread ever considered The Filthy family anything more than an ends to a mean?

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Velvet DOES consider him a friend. NOW he considers us a "good friend" thanks to Mareinette, but there WAS a pre-existing bond before.

On the other hand Velvet cares NADA about Spoiled Rich, except maybe a bit for the influence she has on her friend (Filthy Rich) and on of her daughter's friends (Diamond Tiara).

I try to make all the characters interesting, even if not necessarily likeable. I try to ensure that Velvet stays humane (well, as long as your decisions remain humane). And when it comes to Filthy Rich himself, I even remember sprinkling him in on a certain situation that could be considered gratuitous. But in my mind, those just make sense. I mean, he's the only actual "father" character that you know, other than your own Stormchaser. He's the only real parent on your contacts list, if you think about it.

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very true. I kinda forgot the scene you quoted in which they shared a "parent" moment I admit.

But anyways. My point is that, despite all of that, this quest has still been absolutely plagued by AP hell. Any claims that "things could have gone differently" carry the unspoken "at the expense of something we did". And I personally like the current Velvet, WITH her regrets (and I mean the non-Wolf ones) to the point that I am happy where she currently is.

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Well, we'll never be satisfied... but while we probably could have done better, we also could have done FAR worse.

and by the nature of the game, and random rolls, known knowns and unknown unknowns... we can never be certain what other choices would have been better.

And sometimes we were just unlucky. We DID try with Twilight. We DID make a few, if late, attempts with Windy.

We don't know if bringing Selene to Celestia would have been the better choice (PROBABLY not, she likely would have used the mirror). We don't know for sure that breaking Twilight's faith in Celestia would have been better (PROBABLY yes, but we might have failed an hidden roll about her follow up actions...).

We could have introduced her DIFFERENTLY to the Master. we could have revealed different things.

We could have avoided sharing the Windigoes.

We could have forced the issue and gone to the Changeling Hive, maybe taking advantage of the situation to "rescue" and recruit Twilight...

Many things we could have done better, about as many that could have gone far worse.

. I still don't feel bad for Spoiled though; when your own daughter is more willing to call her teacher mom than you you know you've screwed up. I just feel bad that they'll keep their crappy loveless marriage as-is on our Name's advice.

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the "call the teacher mom" is not the bad part.

the bad part is how she THEN went "how dare you, I AM YOUR MOTHER, ONLY I!"

she KNOWS she sucks as a mom, even if she likely lies to herself about it. Why would she get so offended at this minor slip otherwise?

Personally when it comes to Wasn'ts my main regret is the Woods.

There was so much we hadn't satisfied our curiosity of!

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that's definitely up there. Not befriending the other cultists, particularly Starry, is probably mine.

Twilight's fate is also up there.

Having a high Grail lore and a close relationship with someone should already rate as mind control. This Sacrament is just formalizing the deal.
While other personal Sacraments include murder, murder, three murders, and a different flair of mind control aimed to only deeply traumatize someone. And the other Grail Sacrament is murder and cannibalism, with expectations for more down the road. Because both Mareinette really won't be satisfied with just one instance and the action itself indicates PC's character realignment on what's is acceptable. (That's why I was baffled by some statements upthread in the vein of 'let's befriend Mareinette with just a single sacrifice and thus solve her problem forever', because there definitely would be some further expectations to maintain this friendship)

So morally it's very middle of the pack, together with the Moth one, less clean than the victimless Sacraments, but still far from the 'murders with extra steps' kind of Sacraments, miles less reprehensible than the alternative. Its problem is our dearth of Minions and no clear recipes to obtain more.

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When we're talking about Grail, things are kinda complicated.

When does Grail go from "just helps you be more convincing, like knowing what words to say" into "mind control"?

Is an Influence mind control? Technically speaking it's "bending the Laws of the world a bit". It gives more weight to your actions when acting in the proper "direction".

The Leash? THAT is definitely mind control of a sort, but even so that makes what's already there stronger, it can't create feelings from nothing. Isn't it, in a way, kind of what Cadance supposedly does when she "reignites" the love between two ponies?

Grail and consent and mind control are complicated topics to me, most of the time.

That said TO ME "PERMANENT" Mind control / Brainwashing is in a way kind of equivalent to murder.

if the Leash is a bit like taking advantage of someone after making them get drunk, then permanent minion status is kind of a lobotomy.

It's removing their ability to choose. And, in that sense, it's a bit like killing them.

Worse, we have to do it to someone that already trusts us completely, either naturally or through the use of the Leash.

Which means that while with Personal Lantern or Mareinette Grail we can target people we can rationalize to ourselves as "they deserve it" (or at least "they were bad people, so it's not as bad"), and with Winter we can go "I'm not picking who lives and dies, is this that much more different from death of natural causes?" HERE Velvet is SPECIFICALLY targeting her FRIENDS.

People she CARES about.

That, to me, makes it worse. It's a worse betrayal.

Pitt did say that Velvet considers a friend. Not the thread.

For as much as we may be in part Velvet's 'subconscious', she does have a personality separate from this chaotic gaggle.

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partly this, partly what I said before.

"Being a good person wears you down" innit?

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It HAS been 21 turns and multiple IRL years of REALLY difficult choices.

Gegh. You strike the right balance. It always feels like if we just had one more turn with where we were, at any point in time, we would be able to catch up.
It's good that we can't just do everything. Makes us have to choose, have to prioritize.

I like the Velvet we have here. Liked it enough that I hopped on even at the very tip-tail end of the other place. Liked it enough to keep checking on it despite the quiet, and to join here.

Here... we want to be perfect. But we can't. And every step keeps getting hit with "To handle this, you need to do something you are less comfortable with doing right now."
That... that pull? That tug between what is good, what is helpful, what is right and what is... clean? Wrong word, but close feeling.
I love it. Over the moon about it.

I'm happy. Just... man.

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100% agree with this.

It's... Velvet found herself, partly by chance and partly by choice, in a position of power.

And people in power HAVE to make difficult choices.

She's not perfect, she has her favourites (her family), and while she TRIES to be "good" she sometimes is faced with the choice between what she wants and what she needs.

And many, MANY choices of the "can I afford to take this risk, or should I do Evil Thing X so I won't have to?"

And... there is no right choice.

We saw many examples of this. I don't think there was an objective right choice in how to approach Twilight's situation both pre-being captured and post-capture.

There was no objective right choice in how to deal with the Master.

There was even no real objective right choice in what to do about Luna/Selene.

but Inaction is WORSE than a suboptimal actions, at least in Velvet's mind... and so she chose. and so she saved some people, and doomed others.

Hello everyone!

I've been following this quest as a lurker for over a year now, and though it may be somewhat late, I want to participate in it regardless. Very few stories have gotten me to buy a game that it's based in, much less in a genre I'm unfamiliar with and had no reason to believe I'd come to enjoy as much as I have.

That said, I have some thoughts I'd like to share.

A path to an ending has finally revealed itself with All In, but I think one of the things we're missing is that we don't have a defined, clear picture of when to commit. We want to shore up our resources in Name friends and sacraments, but the questions of which ones (of the latter, really) are needed and how difficult the expedition will be are standing questions that would probably direct the rest of the quests decisions.

It's more or less a given that we'll have Baldomare scry, but given that this is an endgame expedition, I'm expecting a pretty high resistance value to Tapestry. It'd be expensive, but I'd suggest a LV4 Lantern reagent when possible, or even using that LV4 artifact if/when it becomes most convenient. Every interval of 20 is going to matter. The more info we can get on the expedition, the better we can prepare ourselves preemptively.

I wouldn't prepare for this on this turn given that I'd prefer Forge's Redemption now, but I'd want to do this next turn for certain.

It's a bit late to think of a plan myself, but I'll consolidate my thoughts on current plans tomorrow.

I hope everyone has a wonderful night.

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Actually I think we're leaning towards NOT scrying the "All In" expedition.

It's been mentioned that scrying or scouting it would be risky, and truth is that... well, we'll go ALL IN on it anyway.

We'll try to get all the Sacraments we can, to befriend Axe and Baldomare at least, to study and gain more artifacts so we can use their bonuses during the expedition, to summon more summons like the Mares-in-the-Light to support us... We'll also likely give ourselves and our allies influences and AotLs too, ANYTHING that can give us an advantage.

So... how would knowing what dangers are ahead actually help us? Mechanically speaking, at least.

We might get some minor bonuses, maybe skip some rolls for traps? But there's the risk of tripping some kind of alarm ward. It might just not be worth it.

You, know, considering that the thread generally doesn't want to use Mareinette for people we actually want to befriend genuinely (last I checked)...


We had a couple of old options from before about the merchants. They're not listed anymore, but iirc Bird said before that they're still valid options to take. This would probably be a social thing that can abuse Mareinette's +90 to social stuff, right?

Since we should probably use the Grail Name for her specialty while we still have her.

Or maybe we could just keep sending her out to make new contacts until we finally meet the other two Elements.

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We're no longer managing our family's activities in Ponyville though, so it makes a bit less sense to take those actions.

We have far more soft power though through our reputation, so I SUPPOSE we could involve our brother in that and THEN it would make more sense...

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I'll post this now, I'm not sure I can read the rest before having to leave...