Esquestria: The House of the Sun - A pony cultist experience

[Maer]

Oh wow...

This was delightful.

No, really, this was very, very good! Thank you so much for sharing it with us!

This was good in a "I actually want more of it" kind of way. I have a few notes, if you absolutely don't mind, but I definitely want to know where this is going.

Now, about those notes, I am only mentioning these things because I understand you to say that you want to improve your writing. So although I am not an authority in any of this, these are my two cents of what stuck out while I was reading.

First of all, these next few points aren't "negatives". But they definitely stuck out while I read through it:
-Sometimes you reversed to using "people" and other human describers. Especially closer to the end of the story. Seeing this always puts a smile on my face, because I can TELL that you were typing so quickly and so excitedly that those things just ran through the cracks. However, reading about a "person" with a "cutie mark" was definitely a small bump on the reading road.
-You also mentioned... I will have to go back and check, but I swore Weaver's story took place in a larger city. And here, he definitely returns to his "apartment", which I don't think exist in Ponyville yet. So, that definitely made me raise an eyebrow when Granny Smith was mentioned. Now, I completely understand mentioning named characters to give the readers something to ground themselves on. But for city-dwellers to have "Granny Smith" in their vocabulary without further explanation. I know she is an important figure in Ponyville, but if you weren't born and raised there, that wouldn't be a bonding point between you and your boss.

Now, for the things that I loved!
I seriously enjoyed the bleakness of the world. And I don't mean this in a "doom and gloom" way, but that felt like it was even bleaker than the Equestria of this quest.
I would expect that level of Overpowering Depression immediately after the Catastrophe. But after Cadance's wedding, the world in your story was one I would expect from maybe after we reach 4 or 5 Stains. Still, it was awesome.
You mentioned that using less Lore colors made it feel more bleak and sad, and I agree. But it was ina very atmospheric way.
I also absolutely loved the way you described his circumstances. I won't try to invent new vocabulary like "he had a Wolf Wound" or anything like that. But you managed to make it more visceral and personal even from the point of view of a character who didn't know what he had. The description of "I am exhausted and in pain, and it is so much that I can't even feel empathy anymore" struck a very deep chord. And that was awesome!

All in all, I unironically read this latest version while I had the previous version open in another tab, and I wholeheartedly agree this was an awesome improvement!

And again, "I liked this and I would like more of it, please "

So thank you for sharing it! And have a good one.

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Thank you! I'll edit this one, and then work on the next.

Now, to the points that you mentioned:

1. I didn't notice those. I'll go through and fix them in the editing. Thank you for pointing it out to me!

2. I imagine he's living in Manehatten, so that is true. From the show, I was under the impression that the Apple family apples are one of the BIG NAMES of food in Equestria. Kind of like Round Up and Monsanto was THE big name in the farming and weed-killing industries until relatively recently. If that's not true, or not canon for this Quest, I'm happy to change it, but that was my understanding. Especially with their 'zap apple' stuff.

For the Love section…

1. Bleakness. In this case, it's a mix of the sheer difference between Manehatten and Ponyville in the show, and in-quest darkness. Ponyville and similarly small towns in the show were shown to be bright, cheerful, and the best of the ideals of Equestria, with some exceptions. Manehatten by contrast, and even Canterlot in many episodes- feel significantly cooler and more 'realistic'. Friendliness isn't as common and people are generally less supportive of each other. Mix that in with the added paranoia and Evil, and the general emotional downturn caused by The Catastrophe, and I'm viewing this place as both already darker by nature, then hit by a grand tragedy, and then not many people trusting one another to have a support system. It's only so bleak here because they aren't pulling together like Ponyville and other more tightly knit communities have been. Or… that's the biggest reason. The presence of Cultists with no leash isn't exactly helping, though…~

2. A second reason it's so bleak right now, is that Ashen himself is dealing with 'Wolf Wounds'. That makes it harder to empathize with others, but he also got his Winter and Heart poisoned by a Wolf insight. That's tainting the very way he views the world in very dark ways. That's better now that his Heart is better, but it'll traits him some time to get back to his more Harmony-focused view. It will still be pretty bleak, but Ashen was always going to be a person slowly clawing his way up with both a learning disability (better suited to Harmony than The Lores), no proper teacher, active attempts to poison his understanding (Wolf), the government after people like him, and a world actively fighting his ascension (again, Wolf). Compared to Velvet, he's… I wouldn't say he has it worse, but he's certainly not going to have a good time of things.



Overall, thank you so much! If any of my logic or reasoning doesn't feel correct, feel free to point it out so I have a better understanding of the world when writing the next part, but it is so wonderfully encouraging to see both praise and constructive criticism. Thank you!

 

[Bakkasama]

[X] Plan: Goodbye Uncle Steppes

 

[Pittauro]

So having Jade progress Memory of Light won't have her use her Lore because she doesn't have any Knock on her. (But if you are fine not one-shotting things, which is how normal ponies face their day-to-day activities, then you could throw Jade at it just to see some progress).

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sounds like normal ponies sounds like a terminal condition known as skill issue.

You do have to remember though that our daughter and her little friends are on our side.

They're not going to go out of their way to sabotage us or cause us problems which given our job takes away of lot of people concerns.

If anything they're probably going to be able to help with things when we go All In.

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no idea about All In, but I'll just point out that people can be "on our side" and still do things we don't want them to, or even things that would explicitly be against our wishes.

After all, until the moment we killed them, the Master considered themselves on OUR side... or us on theirs, I suppose. Or at least not opposed.

Damn, she probably didn't even see putting Copper against us as something BAD, she was basically just giving us a rival to sharpen us.

I don't think there was a consensus in which Forge Sacrament we wanted to take, but this is otherwise what I remember the lineup being, yeah.

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You're right, I forgot about that.

I'm pretty sure personal Forge Sacrament is cheaper in bits and given how the thread has been insisting on keeping us as poor as possible we'll probably be going for our personal Forge Sacrament.

Our lantern Sacrament could go either way, Baldomare AP are very valuable so going for our personal sacrament that only uses one Velvet AP is probably preferable. Especially if we want Moth 6.

I personally hate our personal Winter Sacrament but really we should get all the sacraments we can. A real shame how people aren't going for the best Winter Sacrament but we probably should hunt down Neighnia anyways.

Also on the topic of Winter I don't know what treasures were behind that Winter Sacrament locked area but we really should beat up our old friend Windy for them.

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I THINK personal Lantern is unlikely unless we get lucky in having an easy guilt-free target for it.

At least thus far we've TRIED to have Velvet only do truly evil things when she either didn't have another choice, or the cost of failure was too high to risk. Baldomare's Lantern isn't really THAT much more expensive AND it's basically guilt-free, while personal lantern is basically draining someone of their soul (or, well, "reading" them to death, but I'm not sure there's a difference). I'd rather avoid it if possible.

Even with Mareinette's grail there's an argument that we need power desperately, and even if cannibalism is wrong, having Mareinette on our side is just too important, especially with the otherwise escalating costs. And also our personal Grail is in some way even worse, I see it as a betrayal of who Velvet is trying to be because it's basically permanent brainwashing of people she considers her closest friends.

I really don't get why/how you can hate the personal winter sacrament but STILL want the Wolf's. If we're lucky enough to get Neighnia in time I'd definitely consider hers unless it turns out to be somehow the worst one requirement-wise.

Yes, but my view is that this is already all bad shit, and that's not going to change.

Softy is a Wolf Apostle and we've got a Wolf Cult in Ponyville! If this was turn 2 it would be something to focus on, if it was turn 12 it would be a ball in the air, but it's turn 22.

Even if we start to lead them? They're still going to be a wolf cult. That's not going to go away, and it's still going to be bad shit.

We've got bigger problems, like Celestia, and the Glory. Taking over the cult because we want to limit it is playing not to lose.

And plus, it's really not being a supportive mother

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I tend to agree. I think it's a bit too late to focus so heavily on the wolf cult. I don't think they're worth 1 full AP each turn when we're actually so pressed for actions to get the Name friendships, the Sacraments, finish the mansus explorations and artifact/book study and acquisition, and so on.

So, back then, the Lores were "Laws" the same way that gravity is a law. And also the same way that your local legislation is a law.

Nowadays, since there are no longer any active Hours (that you know of) the Lores are ONLY a Law. There are no longer any number of Godlike entities twisting and turning it to their desires.

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...wait, are you saying that if the Wolf became active, he'd be the de-facto overlord of Edge and Winter, being able to stop anyone else from using them?

Like, potentially including Neighnia and Biedde (and Axe for her minor Edge)? They're NOT Hours, after all.

I admit I didn't consider the interpretation of "Hours could stop someone from accessing a lore" though. I thought it would require active changes to a Law to allow that (if it was even possible), so if anything it would take ALL the Hours of the same principle to stop a cultist from using that lore... and mortals are for the most part beneath the attention of hours, so I could only imagine that becoming a problem AFTER they become Long, if at any time.

But then again Long already suffered from the "swear to an Hour or you get killed (or go to Port Noon)", so they already have limitations in that sense. And actually the fact they're just killed (at least in CS, if they don't exile themselves) implies they can't just be stopped from practicing the Lores.

I get the feeling that the Master probably could have gatekeeped Moth but Velvet gave her the Wheel treatment so that's not a thing anymore.

Actually since the Master was able to have level 5 in all lores except for Moth does that mean that our Names could increase their lore knowledge?

Velvet could teach her beloved friend Mareinette about the delights of Edge for instance.

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The hubris of wanting to teach a NAME the lores

As for the Master, I'm not sure they could have. they were STILL only a Name, after all, not an Hour.

and they don't have an elevated position in the Mansus from which to rule, they stayed in (and were) the Woods after all.

Recall that Baldomare is also a friend of Mareinette's and Baldomare is not a compulsive baby-muncher.

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I'm not quite sure I'd call them friends, but they're also both... well, monsters, really.

The fact Baldomare is a friendlier monster doesn't mean she's not one. It's really not possible to be a Name and NOT be a Monster in some ways, I think. the path to Name-hood is usually littered in corpses after all. Velvet is not even a Name yet, and there's many people that could make an argument that she IS becoming more and more monstruous, at least by the standards of ponykind.

Even if definitely not as bad as... really, even the average cultist of the old times.

Right choice is always relative. People have different goals. Besides frankly considering how things tend to go, whatever the gift is will probably be tinged with some downside. When given an option to guide that, I'd rather have it.
Also to be perfectly frank, one of your plans involves studying the beacon and flowers which very likely won't do anything and I doubt needs a lantern influence if it does.

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To be fair though, Shaper has a point.

We have two alternatives here

1) Uncontrolled Gift + 1 AP on something else

vs

2) Controlled Gift.

so, the question is if getting a change to "aim/affect" the gift, which should still be of roughtly equivalent (objective, but not subjective) value, is worth the opportunity cost of, for example, 2-3 rolls to study at +40 from the lantern influence, or whatever else we could use the AP on.

So going back and mining locations for scraps* has explicitly been a thing for a while.

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from my understanding going to a previously explored mansus location gives a random reward, kinda like in CS.

so it COULD be a Lantern scrap.

Or it could be a low-rank influence of any kind. or a scrap of another kind.

or dread

or fascination

or a "secret"

or nothing.

so, it's very much a bet in which lantern is an option, and there's a large variety of OTHER options too.

The easy answer is "no". You can't use a personal action to do the "Get your hooves dirty" Commissioner Action.

HOWEVER, I am amenable (if there is interest in it) for you to use a personal action to ONLY participate in the assault on Tall Tale.

See below for my discussion on Shaper's plan.

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mh... I'm interested. I wanted to go there anywhere, and we might be able to... cough cough... appropriate some loot

I have edited my rationale. Check out my previous edited message.

Joining the assault on Tall Tale is fine, but I want you all to know what you will NOT be getting. (As in, its not a perfect equivalent of "Getting your hooves dirty".)

Please see above, and thank you for your patience as I edited my post.

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To be fair we mostly wanted to go there to steal the loot, and potentially to help with some obstacles. so not helping in the prep would likely be acceptable to most.

-The Most Precious Treasure Hunt Ever (Selene's Expedition)
50 bits spent. Obtained alicorn moon princess daughter. Payoff priceless, at least worth 500 bits.
-Crepuscule Jailbreak
36 bits spent. Obtained the sun princess's personal student and main character of the show (us fucking it up afterwards wasn't the expedition's fault). Let's say that saving Twilight was worth at least 360 bits (We gave up 500 bits at the wedding just for a chance at saving her)
-Beneath the Royal Castle, pt. 1
15 bits spent. Knock 2 artifact, Heart 4 reagent. 100 bits for a Knock 2 artifact and 80 bits for a Heart 4 reagent for 180 bits of loot.
-Beneath the Royal Castle, pt. 2
63 bits spent. Level 4 artifact, level 4 reagent, 2 level 5 books obtained. Obviously more than 630 bits of value.
-The Grave on the Hill
20 bits spent. A freaking level 6 book obtained.
-Copper Secateur The Amazing Grail Pinata
Exploded into 700 bits worth of blackmail plus a Winter 4 artifact plus like 300 bits worth of assorted lower level artifacts.

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This makes me cry for how few expeditions we've done. They all pay back so damn well!

only reason books were better, and really only at the low levels (so up to 3), is because we payed for them in relatively low bit costs (still higher than a good expedition though) AND we mostly had servants search for them... and they were kinda useless for anything else.

---

I'll read the last two pages of comments (and the actual plans) tomorrow.

oh, by the way side note @OurLadyOfWires you might want to consider watching hazbin hotel (and after that maybe even helluva boss).

the pilot for hazbin hotel is on youtube, the rest is on prime video.

it's, guess, a "for adult" animation cartoon show with lots of incredibly good musical numbers, set in hell, about the daughter of Lucifer wanting to redeem sinners to get them into heaven.

and the songs are actually BETTER than the best ones in my little pony in my opinion too.

You might enjoy it. I'd recommend it to everyone here who actually watched my little pony but would like something more "mature" that's still basically "animated musical show".

Side note: The Pilot is actually the show at its worst. It's all uphill from there. I'll put a not-that-spoilery song from the show down here too just to... show what it becomes like later on.

Spoiler: the pilot and a song

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sVoglgJjRg


View: https://youtu.be/Zlmswo0S0e0?si=rhQwaUB7Qt0NlxIP

 

[Solace2117]

To be fair though, Shaper has a point.

We have two alternatives here

1) Uncontrolled Gift + 1 AP on something else

vs

2) Controlled Gift.

so, the question is if getting a change to "aim/affect" the gift, which should still be of roughtly equivalent (objective, but not subjective) value, is worth the opportunity cost of, for example, 2-3 rolls to study at +40 from the lantern influence, or whatever else we could use the AP on.

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Sure in a vacuum it's just that, but it all depends on how valuable the other action is. If it was something like a Sacrament sure, I'd be down to try our personal SH, but that didn't get much traction. We're already studying the items of worth, unless you want to study the level 2 and 3 artifacts, and I disagree with Shaper on the beacon. I think it'll be a wasted action.
So then it comes down to training Rarity, taking part in the raid after the QM's clarification, or Uncle Steppes.

The raid is interesting because of the potential loot, though the fact we're coming in after the prep and that it's Bureau sanctioned will probably limit it, the chance to find a worthy opponent even if low, and the off chance we could stumble on a special location with our Knock Sacrament. On the other hand it could potentially hinder our chance to get the Edge Sacrament if we're injured or have to use some of our AotLs which could be another major set back.
Rarity is useful, but I'm just not as interested this turn.
As far as Steppes goes, I just like his character. I also wouldn't be surprised if it was a bit of a monkey's paw situation. Probably still more good overall, but considering Biedde's role in this and how things have gone lately it's hard to trust it at face value. May be nothing though and probably not a big deal either way.

In the end though I'm okay with any of those three options winning even if I have a preference. All are useful and I doubt any of them will be too harmful if we've misjudged something. There are a few other plans that deviate from that, but they haven't gotten as much traction.

 

[Shaper47]

no idea about All In, but I'll just point out that people can be "on our side" and still do things we don't want them to, or even things that would explicitly be against our wishes.

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Fair enough.

Emotionally though I would like to trust our daughters.

I THINK personal Lantern is unlikely unless we get lucky in having an easy guilt-free target for it.

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I mean it's not that hard to pick up a foel peddler as prisoner.

Just have the Bureau detectives investigate normal crimes and have Velvet spend her Bureau action to get her hooves dirty and join in.

Sadly a perp resisted arrest and ended up dying will be the cover story and we get our guit free prisoner.

I really don't get why/how you can hate the personal winter sacrament but STILL want the Wolf's. If we're lucky enough to get Neighnia in time I'd definitely consider hers unless it turns out to be somehow the worst one requirement-wise

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Spoiler

Wolf protects the world from the worms which makes it a necessary evil for the greater good. The exact degree of danger may be unknown but it does exist. Velvet not wanting to take the gamble is understandable especially given Selene's history. It's putting love above morality character building wise.

Let's just leave it at that please?

Personal Sacrament is the equivalent of ritual sacrificing a baby for power.

The hubris of wanting to teach a NAME the lores

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If the horseshoe fits.

The Master implies it's possible afterall.

As for the Master, I'm not sure they could have. they were STILL only a Name, after all, not an Hour.

and they don't have an elevated position in the Mansus from which to rule, they stayed in (and were) the Woods after all.

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The Master was the Woods and Moth was the lore of the Woods. They defined the Lore of the Moth.

They were also the Heir of the Moth.

from my understanding going to a previously explored mansus location gives a random reward, kinda like in CS.

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I think it is influenced by the location, what Velvet is doing and what influences she has.

Like, if Velvet tried to put her hooves over and study the Dry Grail she would probably get Grail scraps and mights SH, Forge and Winter as well. (Should only risk it with a max Winter influence)

So on a max lantern influence studying lantern stuff the odds are probably leaning towards a lantern scrap as a reward.

DC is probably pretty high though.

 

[spiderhellian]

It's insane the things I would gamble to get to see the Silver Key in action. Genuinely insane.

...But not as insane as not knowing what our First Sacrament. Actually. Does. is driving me!

 

[Limabot]

I actually missed that this Quest came back. Anyways, hello everyone. Although I am a bit rusty, here are my tentative main votes for the current plan:

[X] Plan: Goodbye Uncle Steppes
-[X] (AotL) Edge
-[X] (Knock) Explore the Ashen Wastes
-[X] (Social) Fleeting Opportunity: Soft Sweeps
-[X] Study (2x), by priority: Moth 5 book, Lantern 4 artifact, Winter 4 artifact, Manehatten book
-[X] Uncle Steppes has been... distant, this month. But now, he asked for a moment of your time. "Just making sure everything is in order" he said, saying he has a gift for you. (Not picking this option will still net you his gift, but without your imput)
-[X] Sacrament: Challenge Biedde

[X] Plan: The Blade and the Crimson Quill
-[X] (AotL) Edge
-[X] (Knock) Explore the Ashen Wastes
-[X] (Social) Fleeting Opportunity: Soft Sweeps
-[X] Study (x2), by priority: Moth 5 book, Lantern 4 artifact, Winter 4 artifact, Moth 3 artifact, Manehattan book
-[X] Level up Rarity
-[X] Sacrament: Challenge Biedde

[X] Plan Reminder, Uncle is gone
-[X] [AOTL] Edge
-[X] [KNOCK] Ashen Wastes
-[X] [SOCIAL] Soft Sweeps FO
-[X] [STUDY] Moth 5 book Lantern 4 artifact
-[X] [STUDY] A Memory of the Path
-[X] [ACTION] Biedde Sacrament
-[X] Uncle Steppes FO

 

[Shaper47]

from my understanding going to a previously explored mansus location gives a random reward, kinda like in CS.

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Double checked and I found some stuff the QM has said on this topic.

(Exploring a known part of the Mansus will yield the most varied of rewards, through a hidden roll of a dice. But beware that most rewards will be temporary, such as an Influence or a temporary buff. It is possible, however, to learn fragments of Lore as well, or to be rewarded nothing at all. Proceed at your own risk.)

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Of course that was before we got our lantern revelation, without a max lantern influence and not having a specific write-in target.

 

[ses]

I don't think there was a consensus in which Forge Sacrament we wanted to take, but this is otherwise what I remember the lineup being, yeah.

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You're right, I forgot about that.

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I believe the current thinking is that if we fail the Biedde duel we can rush for the Personal Forge sacrament, as our Personal Forge perk is likely to offer buff potions to allow us much better odds on the rematch, while if we pass the Biedde duel we're likely to just skip taking Forge sacrament entirely (Forge Name's miniaturize ability means he's the only Name that can be brought into The Malleary and therefore Velvet will have access to a Forge 6 artifact overwriting her native Forge level anyway during the final mansus expedition)

 

[DelightedOne]

you might want to consider watching hazbin hotel (and after that maybe even helluva boss).

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I think he already does. He did link Hell's Greatest Dad a while back.

Personal Sacrament is the equivalent of ritual sacrificing a baby for power.

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Nah, at most it is possibly sacrificing a baby for power. We don't have specific targets of any type, the End is Beautiful regardless of your age.

 

[dcoconeo]

[X] Plan: IM FROM PONYVILLE AND I SAY KILL EM ALL

 

[AuthorTransient]

Welcome back, beloved.

Wait, hang on. Didn't we agree to do either [Moth Sacrament or study Artifact] and then either [Tall Tale expedition] OR [Edge sacrament], not both at the same time?

 

[Greymere]

Welcome back, beloved.

Wait, hang on. Didn't we agree to do either [Moth Sacrament or study Artifact] and then either [Tall Tale expedition] OR [Edge sacrament], not both at the same time?

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Artifact studying and Moth book studying was pretty close to consensus, if I remember. We need the Moth scrap for Sacrament, and we need the Lantern 4 artifact for Selene's scrying.

Tall Tale vs. Edge wasn't really a thing though, iirc. It was "getting our hooves dirty" vs. "more Bureau Lore". There was some talk about maybe finding a Worthy Opponent in the hive, but I don't really recall anyone advocating for going to Tall Tale instead of challenging Biedde. More of a, if we get lucky and find a strong enough opponent at Tall Tale then we don't have to challenge Biedde and get to reassign that AP to something else.

I believe the current thinking is that if we fail the Biedde duel we can rush for the Personal Forge sacrament, as our Personal Forge perk is likely to offer buff potions to allow us much better odds on the rematch, while if we pass the Biedde duel we're likely to just skip taking Forge sacrament entirely (Forge Name's miniaturize ability means he's the only Name that can be brought into The Malleary and therefore Velvet will have access to a Forge 6 artifact overwriting her native Forge level anyway during the final mansus expedition)

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I had suggested doing personal Forge before challenging Biedde, but iirc people didn't want to go for that.

 

[DelightedOne]

and get to reassign that AP to something else.

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Watch us choose the Uncle Steppes FO again.

 

[AuthorTransient]

Artifact studying and Moth book studying was pretty close to consensus, if I remember. We need the Moth scrap for Sacrament, and we need the Lantern 4 artifact for Selene's scrying.

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I can sort of remember that.

Tall Tale vs. Edge wasn't really a thing though, iirc. It was "getting our hooves dirty" vs. "more Bureau Lore". There was some talk about maybe finding a Worthy Opponent in the hive, but I don't really recall anyone advocating for going to Tall Tale instead of challenging Biedde. More of a, if we get lucky and find a strong enough opponent at Tall Tale then we don't have to challenge Biedde and get to reassign that AP to something else..

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Really? While I can remember that there was advocates for "getting our hooves dirty" so that we can give more Lore to the Bureau (I was one of them), and that there were also those who were hoping for a Worthy Opponent in the expedition, I sort of remember there being a discussion that we could end up getting injured in the expedition and then fail Biedde's Sacrament, though I might be mixing that up with our promise to Softy.

 

[Pittauro]

In fairness cannon has gone a bit off the rails in general. We can probably find a an expedition for him, but I don't know if it'll be something we need to worry about right now. I think he was mentioned as one of the potential false Outsiders if we had failed the roll that led us to Discord, though I don't remember for sure. I don't think there's any harm in having the Bureau search for outside threats, but probably not something we'll have to personally deal with soon.

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I mean, from the alternate timeline in the "Starlight Glimmer jumps and Twilight jump through parallelel worlds" season ender, we see that in one world Equestria is LITERALLY at War with Sombra's mind-controlled crystal empire.

Spike is dead, Twilight is out of commission, Celestia might very well not be in the mental shape to care or fight there.

That means if Sombra comes back it comes down to the Lunar Bureau, Velvet, and MAYBE Selene and Cadance. but stopping Sombra AFTER he comes back and has an army to protect him is going to be MUCH harder than completing an expedition early on to reach the Crystal Heart and power it with the love of the crystal ponies.

Which is to say, that if we get to the Crystal Empire right the MOMENT it reappears, we can probably solve the problem quickly as a "simple" expedition, with the main obstacles being

1. Learning about the empire's return, and Sombra as a threat
2. Learning about the Crystal Heart and how it works
3. Finding the secret passage in the palace's throne room in the crystal empire
4. getting through the "shows your nightmares" door
5. climbing those massive stairs to the top of the... tower? Spire? you know what I mean
6. getting the Heart out of the black crystals trap
7. use the heart against Sombra.

It's quite literally just an expedition, if one of unknown difficulty.

If Sombra gets the empire, its people, and its army... well, then it's no longer an expedition, it becomes a war.

Maybe, but right now what they have isn't a hammer, they're empty handed. If we hand over all of our rituals, sure we'll be handing them a screwdriver, and a knife, and a compass, and all sorts of handy tools, but we will also be handing them the keys to the pocket nukes. And I'm not certain that giving them the precision tools will be worth the risk of also handing them the pocket nukes when they are already part of a cult that considers nuclear fallout to be their "guiding brimstone", to really stretch the analogy. Its not that I think Soft Sweeps will be trigger-happy about the Windigo button, mind you. But I don't exactly have that level of trust for her cult's members when they're already culling their own members without her knowledge.

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Also I'll point out Soft Sweeps doesn't remember some of the "orders" she gave to the cult. Like that one time where she instructed them to burn keepsakes, eat their ashes, and use that as a way to get in the Mansus.

If we take over Soft's cult they would not be able to recruit Twilight. Who will introduce her to Wolf then?

That said I think we had plans to heal Twilight and Shining's horns?Maybe after getting our Moth sacrament we can pretend to be some wandering witch and offer healing for large monetary reward. If Celestia becomes interested Marienete can pretend to be us pretending to be witch and distract her.

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As a reminder, Only Soft Sweeps can recruit people in this cult. Her obsessed "friend" maid said that whenever someone else tries it turns out they were not ready.

I don't want to hear any of this "us" talk in regards to Mareinette, I didn't and don't want that Sacrament. What I do want is incredible levels of violence against pony-eating monsters. I also want the chance to run into a Worthy Opponent in Tall Tale and not get the ever-loving shit beaten out of us by Biedde, though I am still willing to throw hooves with him if no such Changeling appears. BUT NO REGRETTABLE ACTIONS. Therefore I simply must choose:

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I'll be honest, I've been in the end persuaded that doing the Mareinette sacrament is worth the (admittedly evil) cost we pay.

We just need power THAT much. and if we can pick a relatively "acceptable" target for it I'll be... not quite satisfied, but at least acceptant of it.

as for worthy opponents in Tall Tale... I think it's really unlikely.

Keep in mind, the WEAKEST "worthy opponent" we know of was basically Shining Armor, arguably the best pony fighter in Equestria (that does not have access to Lores, obviously). The second weakest is I think Comet.

so, unless somehow a buffed Pharinx in Tall Tale... though it's not admittedly impossible. But we'd have to get really lucky.

That is one way of interpreting it; my interpretation is that meeting with Velvet is in and of itself a vital step to getting his affairs in order.

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are you assuming Biedde will NOT do whatever he's planning to Biedde if we don't meet him?

Weird assumption.

Biedde's story is... not quite ending, but he's basically going to lose all if not most of his free will, if not his life.

We are bringing a hilarious amount of overkill to Tall Tale and I love it.

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To be fair we've brought a hilarious amount of overkill to each and every expedition, and it usually works fairly well for us.

Like, the ONE time we didn't was basically the Depths of the Ruined Church. And we're more limited in the Mansus, not being able to bring Names with us.

We on average always took 40% of the "days" required for each expedition, so we always got massive refunds too, making them actually not that much more expensive even.

On the other hoof Mareinette is useful for raising our Grail lore and giving us more long term ap via friendmaking (also raising heart (prefer books for level 3 myself)).

Meanwhile the only thing Biedde is good for killing and teaching edge, and we probably want him on full health to be the best guard possible.

Besides Biedde is almost certainly good at demanding 'Protection money' i.e. pay me a bunch of bits and I won't kill you this month. It's a deal our uncle would have taken in a heartbeat.

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I don't like Mareinette "friending" people for us much, though I'm fine with it when it's with people we DON'T actually care about.

Like Spoiled Rich, for example. Doing it with ACTUAL close friends feels like a betrayal.

Besides using her for that and for lessons (and we'll NEED them to reach Grail 5, or Heart 4 probably), she's also good for the heart and grail influences (both very useful. Grail for all social things, Heart is actually valuable for ruined Church depths as it's the first obstacle), she can also basically solo expeditions for us.

I mean, She and Axe can take care of any mid-tier expeditions alone, really. even high tier ones with some artifact support or something like MitL support.

I mean, the only option that explicitly makes her worse is inspiration, everything else is... variable. Let's go with that word.

Also Soft is only half aware and sometimes half awake when she does cult stuff, so I wouldn't put that much trust in her capacity to "behave" or control her cult.

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Doing Nothing grants "Dire consequences" while Inspiration has Soft do what Velvet wants though.

All In all though I dislike Freedom and Nothing due to how they involve Velvet treating Soft in their relationship. Way too clingy and not nearly accepting enough

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My guess is that Inspiration will have Soft do things to our benefits, but in a somewhat more ruthless manner. Which might very well not be as bad as giving her cult Windigoes and Ash-Ghouls, admittedly. I'm just terrified of what the wolf might do with those if it nudged Soft to order their use to the cult.

Imagine Soft building an army of Windigoes to go and take care of Windy for us, or to use as protections for our house, or to prepare to try and protect us against Celestia. No idea if THOSE specific options are likely, but it's the kind of thing I think she might do for us.

and the off chance we could stumble on a special location with our Knock Sacrament

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oh, I forgot this! unlikely to happen, but hey, it HAS to happen sometimes, and we know near nothing about it.

Fair enough.

Emotionally though I would like to trust our daughters.

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I trust Soft Sweeps. it's the Wolf in her that I don't trust.

I mean it's not that hard to pick up a foel peddler as prisoner.

Just have the Bureau detectives investigate normal crimes and have Velvet spend her Bureau action to get her hooves dirty and join in.

Sadly a perp resisted arrest and ended up dying will be the cover story and we get our guit free prisoner.

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It kinda is, because they're not exactly common.

finding one would basically require two actions, one to scry and one to capture.

Still, I'll admit it's viable. It might be easier to do Baldomare's though.

I'm not sure we can just "read" someone mid-expedition, and we can't disappear prisoners I think. So unless we can capture a horrible criminal during a cult expedition and somehow stealthily carry them away to our prison to "drain" them later, I think the more realistic approach is basically "Jade scrying" + "Biedde capture". Which, again, not unviable. Might actually be mechanically better.

2 Mares sent with Baldomare might be cheaper all things considered though. and presumably we keep the Mares later anyway.

I think he already does. He did link Hell's Greatest Dad a while back.

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I completely forgot that. in that case, @OurLadyOfWires I discovered Hazbin Hotel and I love it. I'm now S2 of Helluva Boss... which is not quite as good, but still fairly entertaining.

Nah, at most it is possibly sacrificing a baby for power. We don't have specific targets of any type, the End is Beautiful regardless of your age.

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yeah, it's kinda like that internet question "you get a button, if you press it someone dies, but you get a million dollars, nobody will ever know, would you press it"?

...Honestly I think most people would press it. It's easy to say they wouldn't when it's only a hypothetical, but anyone who truly lives in poverty would at least be tempted.

Not to say that there aren't people who wouldn't. I like to think I wouldn't, but I honestly don't know.

[X] Plan: IM FROM PONYVILLE AND I SAY KILL EM ALL

 

[DelightedOne]

That means if Sombra comes back it comes down to the Lunar Bureau, Velvet, and MAYBE Selene and Cadance.

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Not MAYBE Cadance, DEFINITELY Cadance. The Crystal Heart is literally her Cutie Mark and she got a sparkle in her eyes and a second wind when she saw it for the first time after spending a while protecting the Crystal Empire by herself, enough to catch Spike mid air.

If Sombra gets the empire, its people, and its army... well, then it's no longer an expedition, it becomes a war.

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And then we have to deal with Daybreaker and Sombra.

Realistically the only Names we need for that are Axe(general expedition), Baldomare(find the Crystal Heart) and Mareinette(make the Crystal Ponies happy). Cherenkolt could help with the preparations for the fair and Biedde could distract Sombra for us.

What bothers me most is that we don't know if the group Celestia put in charge of watching the Empire in canon is still working or not. If it is not, then that means we need to keep an eye on it, if it is either Celestia will tell us to mobilize the Bureau or Cadance will tell us why she needs to go away.

And restoring the Crystal Empire and the Crystal Heart is very important. Aside from being another victory for Harmony, the state of the Crystal Empire also influences the state of Equestria.

In the words of Celestia: "If the Empire is filled with hope and love, those things are reflected across all of Equestria. If hatred and fear take hold..."

We are already at 3 Stains and might have it higher in the future. The Crystal Heart could help mitigate the effects of the Sons.

 

[Solace2117]

I mean, from the alternate timeline in the "Starlight Glimmer jumps and Twilight jump through parallelel worlds" season ender, we see that in one world Equestria is LITERALLY at War with Sombra's mind-controlled crystal empire.

Spike is dead, Twilight is out of commission, Celestia might very well not be in the mental shape to care or fight there.

That means if Sombra comes back it comes down to the Lunar Bureau, Velvet, and MAYBE Selene and Cadance. but stopping Sombra AFTER he comes back and has an army to protect him is going to be MUCH harder than completing an expedition early on to reach the Crystal Heart and power it with the love of the crystal ponies.

Which is to say, that if we get to the Crystal Empire right the MOMENT it reappears, we can probably solve the problem quickly as a "simple" expedition, with the main obstacles being

1. Learning about the empire's return, and Sombra as a threat
2. Learning about the Crystal Heart and how it works
3. Finding the secret passage in the palace's throne room in the crystal empire
4. getting through the "shows your nightmares" door
5. climbing those massive stairs to the top of the... tower? Spire? you know what I mean
6. getting the Heart out of the black crystals trap
7. use the heart against Sombra.

It's quite literally just an expedition, if one of unknown difficulty.

If Sombra gets the empire, its people, and its army... well, then it's no longer an expedition, it becomes a war.

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You may be overthinking it a little considering how much has changed from cannon and how close we potentially are to Glory, but in fairness this is exactly what the Bureau was created for. I don't know that Velvet has time to waste her personal actions on it, and realistically she also has no reason in character for her to do so. On the other hand the Bureau does have an option to look for outside threats and depending on what it finds there's lots of potential in an expedition to the Crystal Empire or any of the leads that come up.

oh, I forgot this! unlikely to happen, but hey, it HAS to happen sometimes, and we know near nothing about it.

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Not going to lie, I don't think it'll happen, but it's one of the most tempting reasons to go to Tall Tale. Also the reason that whenever we do the third Canterlot expedition I think Velvet needs to go.

 

[Pittauro]

Not MAYBE Cadance, DEFINITELY Cadance. The Crystal Heart is literally her Cutie Mark and she got a sparkle in her eyes and a second wind when she saw it for the first time after spending a while protecting the Crystal Empire by herself, enough to catch Spike mid air.

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depends on if she knows to go there, while she keeps up the "love-shield" she still needs someone else to do the expedition itself.

Basically, is Celestia going to tell her? I don't know.

You may be overthinking it a little considering how much has changed from cannon and how close we potentially are to Glory, but in fairness this is exactly what the Bureau was created for. I don't know that Velvet has time to waste her personal actions on it, and realistically she also has no reason in character for her to do so. On the other hand the Bureau does have an option to look for outside threats and depending on what it finds there's lots of potential in an expedition to the Crystal Empire or any of the leads that come up.

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wait, did I ever say we need to do a personal action for it? Right now I'm just pointing out Sombra is a likely imminent threat, and agreeing that we should take the external threats bureau action.

AFTER THAT, there's an argument we might want to do a personal action to deal with it instead of bureau, but I'm leaning Bureau.

...not that stealing the HEart for ourselves isn't tempting, it might very well be a lvl 7 artifact, but we'd be dooming the city in that case. Maybe we can at least get a chance to study it for scraps.

 

[Shaper47]

I trust Soft Sweeps. it's the Wolf in her that I don't trust.

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I think your dislocating on this and that their not as separate as you think.

Like, remember Soft Sweeps helping that fellow maid when she befriended them. More that kind of thing.

I'm not sure we can just "read" someone mid-expedition, and we can't disappear prisoners I think. So unless we can capture a horrible criminal during a cult expedition and somehow stealthily carry them away to our prison to "drain" them later,

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Definitely can't read mid-expedition we need them as a prisoner.

But with Moth 5 and absolute Bureau loyalty arranging thing so we can grab a prisoner is probably possible.

I think the more realistic approach is basically "Jade scrying" + "Biedde capture". Which, again, not unviable. Might actually be mechanically better.

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At most we could just send Biedde to get them himself.

He's a Name, he doesn't need Jade to hold his hand for gathering information.

Hell even if he does we could probably just get the information on the target from the Bureau.

And restoring the Crystal Empire and the Crystal Heart is very important. Aside from being another victory for Harmony, the state of the Crystal Empire also influences the state of Equestria.

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You do remember that Velvet is aiming for the Glory victory right?

Besides setting up a worm calling Beacon feels very out of character. Maybe even we had investigated the Wards it might be possible but as is I don't see Velvet risking the world.

 

[Greymere]

Biedde's story is... not quite ending, but he's basically going to lose all if not most of his free will, if not his life.

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I think you mean Steppes here?

What bothers me most is that we don't know if the group Celestia put in charge of watching the Empire in canon is still working or not. If it is not, then that means we need to keep an eye on it, if it is either Celestia will tell us to mobilize the Bureau or Cadance will tell us why she needs to go away.

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Which is why we should have our detectives look for outside threats next turn, so that Velvet can know IC that the Crystal Empire reappearing is something she might need to have the Bureau keeping an eye on in case of mad sorcerer-tyrant reappearance. Edit: Or some other 'foreign' threat that we don't know about but Bird has hidden away, ready to become a Problem if we start getting too comfortable.

 

[DelightedOne]

You do remember that Velvet is aiming for the Glory victory right?

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Velvet aims for whatever the players want... and with the amount of curses I have been putting in All In I would be surprised if she makes it out alive.

Besides setting up a worm calling Beacon feels very out of character. Maybe even we had investigated the Wards it might be possible but as is I don't see Velvet risking the world.

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I agree that setting up a worm beacon is out of character for Velvet, so she won't be doing that. But doing her job and helping one of her best friends save the Empire she is supposed to rule is out of character for Velvet Covers? No, it isn't.

And the wards are broken and you know it, I have said that several times already.

Which is why we should have our detectives look for outside threats next turn, so that Velvet can know IC that the Crystal Empire reappearing is something she should consider the Bureau keeping an eye on in case of mad sorcerer-tyrant reappearance.

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Isn't that option a wildcard and a turn by turn thing?

 

[Solace2117]

wait, did I ever say we need to do a personal action for it? Right now I'm just pointing out Sombra is a likely imminent threat, and agreeing that we should take the external threats bureau action.

AFTER THAT, there's an argument we might want to do a personal action to deal with it instead of bureau, but I'm leaning Bureau.

...not that stealing the HEart for ourselves isn't tempting, it might very well be a lvl 7 artifact, but we'd be dooming the city in that case. Maybe we can at least get a chance to study it for scraps.

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There's other threats than just Sombra. I'm all for searching for outside threats, but there's no guarantee the action will find a Crystal Empire expedition.

 

[Shaper47]

And the wards are broken and you know it, I have said that several times already.

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And where are you pulling this information from?

Because I'm pretty sure IC and OOC we know almost nothing about what's going on there.

I agree that setting up a worm beacon is out of character for Velvet, so she won't be doing that. But doing her job and helping one of her best friends save the Empire she is supposed to rule is out of character for Velvet Covers? No, it isn't.

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Your contradicting yourself.

 

[Greymere]

Isn't that option a wildcard and a turn by turn thing?

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Yeah but it's pretty much our only IC way of learning about Sombra being a threat we might have to deal with. Like, we technically know that Sombra exists...

SECRET HISTORIES
-Level 3 – "A curious scroll, a copy from the original of course, detailing the appearance of King Sombra, centuries ago."

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...but I don't know if that included the detail of "he will reappear at some point". @OurLadyOfWires not sure whether that book would be good enough IC reason for Velvet to justify telling the Bureau to look into Sombra specifically?

 

[DelightedOne]

And where are you pulling this information from?

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-On the Worms...

"Ah, yes. The Worms. Worrying about them is a tale as old as time, Velvet, trust me. I'll have to look around the Wake for a little bit, but I can tell at a glance that things are... different, than they were back then. I won't say that they were simpler, quite on the contrary, but at least it was a system that I was used to. But now? Well, the fact that the Wake still exists shows us that something must have put a ward in place, or taken some action about it.

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Baldomare. We already had this conversation before, by the way.

Your contradicting yourself.

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Medicine can be poison if used incorrectly.

 

[Shaper47]

Baldomare. We already had this conversation before, by the way.

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Which could very easily refer to the exact opposite of what you are arguing.

Saying the Wards are broken based on a statement that says "the fact that the Wake still exists shows us that something must have put a ward in place," isn't at all convincing.

 

[DelightedOne]

Saying the Wards are broken based on a statement that says "the fact that the Wake still exists shows us that something must have put a ward in place," isn't at all convincing.

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If something put new wards in place, then that means the old ones are broken.

But I'm pretty sure the Wake is still standing because the Dreamlands are acting as Worm bait(probably not on purpose), so instead of coming to the Wake they lick the dream doors of ponies to feed.

Edit: And once again, we had this conversation. I don't think any of us ever wins.

 

[Greymere]

Edit: And once again, we had this conversation. I don't think any of us ever wins.

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This is the exact reason I have Shaper on ignore.

 

[Shaper47]

If something put new wards in place, then that means the old ones are broken.

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It doesn't say "new" wards it just says "ward".

Which means for all we know a Heart Hour might have reinforced the heart wards or created a new ward before dying.

Which has implications and issues.

But I'm pretty sure the Wake is still standing because the Dreamlands are acting as Worm bait(probably not on purpose), so instead of coming to the Wake they lick the dream doors of ponies to feed.

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It's a possibility.

The Dreamlands does have anti-worm properties even if they are extreamly badly designed.