Esquestria: The House of the Sun - A pony cultist experience

[Rafuki22]

That's absurd, being more directly involved is obviously going to be better for Soft than dumping some rituals on her and then not involving ourselves any further.

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You are making assumptions, we don't know what's going to happen, hindsight and all that.

For all we know she will roll a nat 1 behind the scenes regardless of choice.

 

[keykigdom]

[X] Gift her tools

 

[Shaper47]

That's absurd, being more directly involved is obviously going to be better for Soft than dumping some rituals on her and then not involving ourselves any further.

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With what free time?

A Velvet ap per turn is very expensive especially since we already have a cult in the Bureau.

And for what?

Finding expeditions, the Bureau can do that for us.

Rituals, they're are beginner cult, it will take them ages to be of any useful help.

Also we have had Velvet go out of her way to not have the requirements to support a cult. Can we really afford all the books and study actions added to the already heavy drain on our ap to get them up to scratch.

Velvet ap are just too valuable.

 

[Greymere]

Narratively, i think that we should trust Soft the same we trusted her before, so Freedom is out, Nothing is practically out of sight and out of mind, Inspiration is a weighted coin toss and Influence seems redundant given the short timeframe we have, so Tools seems like the...not the proper way, because none of them really are, but that gift is the one that explicitly says that Velvet trusts her.

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Except that Soft is still 100% in the dark that she's leading a cult. She still thinks that this is just a friend group. I'm not gonna trust someone to do a job that they are completely unaware that they've been assigned to.

Like I said before, the Wolf cult is already culling it's own members without her knowledge. She's not on the lookout for cult behavior, and we really need her to be if she's going to make sure the cult stays on the... relatively straight and moderately wide path, if we're giving them free access to the "murder anyone without a trace" and "drive people insane" rituals.

Like, clearly they aren't going to be 100% benevolent in their usage, considering that something bad will explicitly happen to Mayor Mare if we gift influence. They are going to do stuff that we will not like with what we give them, and the only way that's not going to happen is if we're holding the leash and giving the directions, or maybe if we give them inspiration and... turn Soft into our mouthpiece or prophet or something? Maybe? Point being, Bird said the wording on the 1st option is intentionally ambiguous, but considering the trait and the blurb it seems to fall more on the side of "don't do shit we don't want you to do" than not, at the price of a narratively +1 Stained Soft.

 

[DelightedOne]

With what free time?

A Velvet ap per turn is very expensive especially since we already have a cult in the Bureau.

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Technically it is 1/3 of a cult now. It still needs to develop.

-The general growth of the Lunar Bureau as a Lore-attuned institution will also be proportional to how many Lores have been introduced through Institutional Knowledge teachings.

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Soft's cult is a immediate cult from what it seems.

Besides some follower AP could be helpful if that is the exchange. Velvet already relies on others for a lot of things.

Also we have had Velvet go out of her way to not have the requirements to support a cult. Can we really afford all the books and study actions added to the already heavy drain on our ap to get them up to scratch.

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You are assuming we will use them as a proper cult instead of something else, like servants.

 

[Rafuki22]

and the only way that's not going to happen is if we're holding the leash and giving the directions, or maybe if we give them inspiration.

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Even if we give them directions that doesn't really guarantee anything does it?

If the option ends up winning fine, but i really don't feel like losing an AP when we are on a alicorn shaped time limit.

 

[Greymere]

You are assuming we will use them as a proper cult instead of something else, like servants.

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And it's not like they'd be running off of an entirely separate library... we need to level up the Bureau's Lores anyway, so any study or manuscript actions that we would hypothetically do "because cult Lore levels" are probably going to happen (or not happen) regardless of if we pick up Soft's cult.

(I still maintain we should Confidant Cheerilee as the one most likely to enable adding to the Library without our direct involvement)

 

[OurLadyOfWires]

I wasn't really pinged, but given the discussion surrounding "Freedom" in particular, I can give Velvet's perspective on it. And since this would be the most "hoofs on" option, I can also elaborate on what Velvet would expect herself to (have to) do following it.

So first things first.

Velvet can see that Soft's "group" is, well, a cult. Ponyville sure likes its cults and all that.

However, Velvet has two pieces of experience that Soft's cult doesn't. One, she has already seen what an established cult was like (the Wildhoof Club) and two, she has already seen what proper resources can get you (from her time at the Bureau).

And she can clearly see that Soft's "cult" is, presently, the equivalent of three foals in a trench coat. They have the desire and disposition to do it, but they don't know how to do it.
In fact, they don't even know what they are supposed to be doing to begin with.

So, in practical terms, the first thing Velvet would have to do if she wanted to take the reins of Softy's followers would be "whip them into shape".

Find a place to gather, get a proper tally of its member, give them literal homework in the form of whatever is in your personal library. Hell, even determining the purpose of the cult would be in order. After all, "seeking the truth of the world" is a nice catchphrase, but the Quest only really started when the Master gave you an alicorn related objective.

I would expect the cult to need one, or maybe two, months to quite literally get on its hoofs and reach the "level zero" threshold. After that, you will probably start being able to give them proper cultish directions.

There would also be more personal matters to look into. For example, there would be probably a vote to determine Soft's place in the cult, and how much you want her involved (with more involvement meaning a happier Soft, but I can see a part of Velvet recoiling at giving her more Wolf exposure, for obvious reasons).

And of course, I would generally want to make this as interesting as possible. I do like the Wolf, after all, and I no longer offer options I am unwilling to write.



Anyhow. This is my sincerely unbiased explanation for "Freedom". Don't take any of this as a "promise", I reserve the right to change details for the sake of better mechanics/narrative, but I would be rereading this post to center myself if "Freedom" wins.

And since this is an unbiased post, I would be remiss not to mention the negatives of "Freedom". Specifically, the negatives that Velvet personally knows of, and would take into account. And those are (off the top of my head):
-Velvet's time (action points) are just more valuable;
-Celestia Lantern Doom Clock;
-The conflicting interests of being the Commissioner of the Lunar Bureau, and the leader of a Wolf Cult;
-Probably more things I can't remember.



That's all from my part. Hope you are all doing well!

 

[Greymere]

Find a place to gather, get a proper tally of its member, give them literal homework in the form of whatever is in your personal library. Hell, even determining the purpose of the cult would be in order. After all, "seeking the truth of the world" is a nice catchphrase, but the Quest only really started when the Master gave you an alicorn related objective.

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Obviously we should turn them into archeologists!

 

[spiderhellian]

It just seems like a whole mess that we really ought not to dive into hooffirst when Celestia and the Glory are right there.

 

[DelightedOne]

I would expect the cult to need one, or maybe two, months to quite literally get on its hoofs and reach the "level zero" threshold. After that, you will probably start being able to give them proper cultish directions.

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Expected and still faster than the Bureau.

Specifically, the negatives that Velvet personally knows of, and would take into account. And those are (off the top of my head):
-Velvet's time (action points) are just more valuable;
-Celestia Lantern Doom Clock;
-The conflicting interests of being the Commissioner of the Lunar Bureau, and the leader of a Wolf Cult;
-Probably more things I can't remember.

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Again, expected. Nothing that makes me want to drop Freedom.

A Cult is just so interesting. And I still think we could fix them, if not then make a trap to get rid of them.

 

[Greymere]

Actually, maybe a relevant question, @OurLadyOfWires. If we don't take over Soft's cult, are we actually able to work against them if they start going around, say, murdering mayors in the town we live in as a totally hypothetical situation? Or beforehand, if we decide that actually we just really don't want another cult stirring up more dust in both the Wake and the Mansus.

Because if not, then "conflict of interest" doesn't really seem like a negative when the other side of that scale is "let them do whatever, completely uncontestable".

 

[Rafuki22]

-The conflicting interests of being the Commissioner of the Lunar Bureau, and the leader of a Wolf Cult;

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Seems like there alredy is a conflict of interests because Soft is the "leader" of a cult with her mother being the unofficial boss of the pony SCP Foundation.

Or beforehand, if we decide that actually we just really don't want another cult stirring up more dust in both the Wake and the Mansus.

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Things like that would be met with the roadbump named Soft i believe.

 

[Sintonir]

Actually, maybe a relevant question, @OurLadyOfWires. If we don't take over Soft's cult, are we actually able to work against them if they start going around, say, murdering mayors in the town we live in as a totally hypothetical situation? Or beforehand, if we decide that actually we just really don't want another cult stirring up more dust in both the Wake and the Mansus.

Because if not, then "conflict of interest" doesn't really seem like a con when the other side of the scale is "let them do whatever completely uncontestable".

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I think a better question would be "if we don't take over Soft's Cult directly, can we somewhat control it indirectly?" Through asking Softy to do something, maybe spending a personal AP on it - not every turn as we'd need if we went for the Freedom option, but the result won't be as reliable as if we were in control.
If enough people in the thread would be against the cult, I think the options to deal with it would be added. But I'd better prevent this from happening entirely

 

[ses]

One to two months is literally faster than the Bureau will be online even spending all our Commissioner actions doubling the rate we get online. And frankly Outer Circles are important. They provide the ability to do more actions.

 

[Greymere]

Seems like there alredy is a conflict of interests because Soft is the "leader" of a cult with her mother being the unofficial boss of the pony SCP Foundation.

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Nah, the pony SCP foundation is Eclipse. They're the research division after all, the Bureau is just cheating by having a Loremaster at its head.

But yes, also still a conflict of interest if we're unwilling to intercede w/ the Wolf cult because of Soft if they start getting up to Wolfish Shenanigans.

 

[Shaper47]

I would expect the cult to need one, or maybe two, months to quite literally get on its hoofs and reach the "level zero" threshold.

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Right so two months before they even start being the slightest bit useful.

Well given how the doom clocks going even if we get Moth 6 which will be harder with the appropriate penalty that's not much time of them being useful.

 

[Limabot]

[X] Gift her tools.

[X] Gift her freedom.

[X] Gift her influence.

I am sceptical of all of these options (and could possibly be convinced to switch to Influence if there's a sufficiently viable plan built around it), but Tools seems like it will be relatively limited in consequences (as the Therapy Club doesn't really have an incentive to whip out some of the more destructive ritutals, and offer us a good in-character reason to get the Lunar Bureau to break up the cult and give the members the help they actually need if we were unlucky enough to have somepony turn the Ponyville Cemetary into Ash-Ghouls) and Freedom may make the Therapy Club a bit less bloody (even if only through stuffing it with paperwork).

EDIT: Greymere has convinced me to approval-vote for Influence as well.

 

[Greymere]

I am sceptical of all of these options (and could possibly be convinced to switch to Influence if there's a sufficiently viable plan built around it)

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Step 1: Send Marinette to social Mayor Mare next turn

Step 2: Put Leash on Mayor Mare once we're done with the Moth Sacrament.

Unless I misunderstand what you mean by building a plan around it?

 

[Pittauro]

been busy at work, shorter comments...

Velvet Covers will come to understand the effects of Regrettable Actions on the world, as if she had performed a fourth Regrettable Action and crossed the "midway point".

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This definitely tempts me. Definitely cursed knowledge, but... we might actually be better off knowing.

Who knows, it might be the one thing that will fully convince us to NEVER take a wolf action again!

...or, maybe, the opposite. It might be the knowledge of how to "take it back" too.

No
No progressing Softy's Stains either narratively or behaviorally. She deserves less Agony, not more. If we really want to learn more about this stuff just talk to Ash, he's always around in the Wastes.

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it might not be agony for her.

I could easily be wrong, but my expectations are that if we take this Soft will be more... pragmatic/ruthless when pursuin her/our goals, without being more inherently (and metaphysically) corrupted.

The answer is always "what we'd really rather them not"

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hey, sometimes the wolf DID what we wanted him to! That's the whole point of Regrettable Actions!

...he just does it in the worst way possible that we'd still probably think kinda sorta worth it if we had no other choices.

I mean, I think most of us think that, for all that we don't like taking regrettable actions... the two we took (break door and kill master) were better than the alternatives we had at the time.

Or at least, Master definitely was. I'm not quite sure about door, but who knows where we'd be if we had gone down the "find a couple acceptable targets to open it", considering the APs it would have taken.

And let's be real, at the time we were far more squeamish about "evil actions". We wouldn't have just taken the first pony walking around, we would have gone for someone worse than what we're going for with Mareinette's sacrament, and with fewer resources to get them.

Fool proof Plan to dispose of Wolf Cult

1. Take control
2. Invite Mareinette
3. Offer buffet to Mareinette

This will surely have no negative repercussions on us and ours

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I suspect Soft might not approve of all of her friends disappearing in Mareinette's stomach.

I'm also not nearly as concerned that the Wolf Cult will go "hurr summon windigos randomly". We've had this conversation so many times about so many different people and factions and it never works out like that. The Master didn't randomly commit mass slaughters like posters predicted. Windy hasn't blown up any cities yet despite operating solo for months.

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The master killed all of the changeling victims when we... didn't really expect him to (naive of us, admittedly). And he put Chrysalis in such a corner that she felt the need to pull a crazy.

It wasn't a RANDOM mass slaughter, but still a slaughter it was. The master explicitly went "seems like snuffing the flames is the only viable option right now" there too!

We can't comment on Windy as we don't know what he's doing. Might be nothing, might be something.

Oh! I understand now. My apologies, this is probably because of the long pause we just returned from.

You are not doing Softy's action for your benefit. I didnt make these votes with a "reward for Velvet Covers" in mind.

You are making up for not being able to reach Softy's breakpoint.

So don't fall into the fallacy of thinking this is a "choose your gift" kind of vote.
I wouldnt call this a "pick your poison" vote. But you DID vote to resolve this with one action point (make a promise) instead of two (hang out with Softy).

EDIT: Also, I have no idea why the hyperlink as just... wrong. Should be fixed now.

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what we picked

[] You promise to let her help you.
-The best way to calm her down is to help her develop.
-You will promise to do… something for her. On turn 22 you will have the Fleeting Opportunity of "Soft Sweeps' Request". You cannot predict what she will ask of you, but if you perform that action you will accept whatever request she has. (Although you will not be mechanically forced to take this action.)
-Successfully keeping your promise will placate Soft Sweeps.
-Failing to keep your promise will have dire consequences.

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So we're giving her a way to help us, and a goal to pursue to not make her feel helpless basically?

Giving her the mission to gather influence, or the rituals to help us, or guiding her cult (and basically allowing her to offer us the help of her "friends") makes sense, I suppose. They're really straightforward methods to help us.

Inspiration is... well, more unknown.

It's basically telling her to do what she thinks is best to help us... and I suppose it makes sense she'd get a "narrative" stain out of it.

We're not giving her a NEW method to help us (cult, rituals, influence), but we're telling her "we see what you have, it's enough, try your best".

So, to help us while getting OBJECTIVELY the least out of us... she HAS to push harder, and probably do more "bad" things. She HAS (or feels she has) to be ruthless to be of help to us.

@OurLadyOfWires am I reading this right?

---

… how did that maid phrase it in her mind again?

Ah yes, she is not a "dejected spinster who spends all day reading and drinking in her dusty old room."

....

....

Now, regardless of what that uneducated maid thought that day (and regardless of how she is now chronically afraid of lighthouses, after all the nightmares), Baldomare is not currently in her room.

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...damn. Baldomare can be kinda petty

Then again the maid is still alive and (mostly) unharmed, which for a Name is I supposed very merciful...

"Because to me, they look like flowers,

...

...
"They look like clay.

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Very interesting perspective.

Yeah, a painting implies the existence of a painter. Cutie Marks imply someone who grants them, and an intelligence and plan behind them.

Unless we assume it's some kind of subconscious decision on the pony's side... but that sounds extremely unlikely when, indeed, many ponies completely misunderstand their mark's meaning in the beginning, or the marks turn out to have really hidden depths.

see Trouble Shoes being "unlucky" actually meaning is suited for clown work, or the main 6... it's even more obvious with the marks of the Alicorn, particularly the crystal heart on Cadance's flank.

Though to be fair we've been told she had a different mark before ascending, so that's already a special case.

Because if there is a painter behind these symbols, and if there is a hoof molding this clay, then what is the significance of that mark, that imprinted so auspicious a symbols upon such innocent a filly?

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yeah. Harmony is, either directly or by whatever passive "rules" it established that assign the marks automatically, allow Silky to get a LORE mark.

Though I still argue that Velvet's Mark was that first.

And yeah... interesting that Baldomare and Biedde can't decide if the new system is better or worse. I'd argue it's better... at least from what we know thus far. But the fact people who benefited the most from the old system are unsure...

Still, he gave away the authority Lady Velvet herself gave to him over the Estate's kitchen (and thus, the ability to enter them), in exchange for fair Mareinette's services during that day of days.

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...well played, Mareinette.

I wonder how Velvet would feel about it, knowing that Mareinette schemed to get inside the house... by helping making the cute-ceñeara perfect.

I think she'd be conflicted. Maybe even tentatively approve, considering our actions have been partially interpreted as her starting to trust and like Mareinette more (or at least distrust/dislike her less).

That is not a Brand.

I may not be Branded, but I have eyes to see. You may be great, but you are mistaken.

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of course it's the Names WITHOUT a Brand (Axe and Cherenkov) that don't immediately "sense" they're not the same thing.

Makes sense.

It is a colt with bright orange fur and no cutie mark on his flank. A colt that looks confused, and maybe even a little scared, as one of the passing maids quickly shoos him away from the kitchen, saying something to the effect that he shouldn't be there. A colt who, during the glimpse the chef gets of the outside world before the door closes again, is immediately swarmed by other foals as their new playmate.

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...damn it, she's making it really difficult to continue to distrust her!

Why is Mareinette being so WHOLESOME?! It's surreal!

And then they brought the crayons, their hyperactive minds deciding that her resplendent flank was a wrong to be corrected, and then…

Well, at this point there isn't a single scale in her entire body that isn't somehow marked or colored over. To the point that rather than just washing it off, it will probably be easier to just shed her entire skin later on.

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"Have you… *ahem* ever had foals of your own before?"
"Well, ae had tae raise one so many times I might as well hav'. Evr'y time we moved aroun' an' she had tae shed, et was tha' all over again."

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ah, right, from what I understand her sister was NOT a Name, and basically "shed" to become young again, losing at least some of her self in the process (which is why she refused to "shed" and forget her feelings for her husband beyond the Mirror...)

"But once you get your cutie mark, something changes. You are still a foal, of course. But when you get your cutie mark, it finally feels like one day you will stop being one. It feels like you become a part of the world, and that you have your place in it, rather than the world just being this place you live in."

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many fanfics have the cutie marks being referred to as "Marks of Destiny" in older times. It's an appropriate name, as in a way it's something that grants you a destiny, a PURPOSE, to follow and be satisfied in pursuing.

"Do ye think tha'… ye ever think if th' world also has moments like tha'?" she asks with a thoughtful voice. "Ye think th' world ever has a moment tha'… et doesn' really change, bu' et finally decides wo' direction et's gonna go?"

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A good way to put what the Endings are, I suppose?

Wolf Ending is us reminding the world of all the worst cruelties of the past.

The Moon is reminding it of the old status quo.

Harmony and Glory are giving it a "new" direction.

But as long as the smile she has on her face doesn't change, you don't really mind.



Perhaps I wiped my mouth. Perhaps I licked my lips.

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worrying. Hopefully it's NOT about Silky but just about the Sacrament...

I actually wouldn't have noticed this if Shaper didn't comment on it.

 

[Limabot]

Step 1: Send Marinette to social Mayor Mare next turn

Step 2: Put Leash on Mayor Mare once we're done with the Moth Sacrament.

Unless I misunderstand what you mean by building a plan around it?

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What I was getting it was basically trying to fanagle a way to do this that didn't eat too much into our other goals, but as long as we commit to taking action to save Mayor Mare, I will approval vote for Influence as well.

 

[DelightedOne]

actually need if we were unlucky enough to have somepony turn the Ponyville Cemetary into Ash-Ghouls

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If they are summoning Ash-Ghouls, they won't be using the cemetery to make them, but to maintain them.

[BURNING FUEL]: This creature must consume dead bodies (the same number of bodies currently applying its bonuses) every turn, or it will be immediately unsummoned.

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Because they need LIVING ponies to be summoned.

-At least one living pony MUST be sacrificed to summon this creature. Ponies sacrificed in this ritual do NOT count towards the maximum number of sacrifices of a circle, but they do NOT give any bonus to this ritual (to a maximum of seven ponies).

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[Limabot]

If they are summoning Ash-Ghouls, they won't be using the cemetery to make them, but to maintain them.


Because they need LIVING ponies to be summoned.

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That doesn't really change my point, but thanks for the reminder.

 

[DelightedOne]

It makes it worse, because using corpses would not be that bad, using living ponies to make Ash-Ghouls is... terrible.

 

[ses]

It wasn't a RANDOM mass slaughter, but still a slaughter it was. The master explicitly went "seems like snuffing the flames is the only viable option right now" there too!

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In the aftermath of the assault on the changeling hive, the thread was constantly predicting the Master was just about to commit a random mass slaughter for literally no reason other than "to douse the lights".

Though I still argue that Velvet's Mark was that first.

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Baldomare's cutie mark is the actual straight up Lantern. There's no interpretation where Velvet is special. Occultists having cutie marks that can be made to fit with the lore's symbols in hindsight is a very different thing than unambiguous "this is a Lore mark". Velvet's cutie mark is a normal cutie mark that can have associations made in hindsight.

 

[Limabot]

It makes it worse, because using corpses would not be that bad, using living ponies to make Ash-Ghouls is... terrible.

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I consider Ash-Ghouls existing at all to be fundementally terrible, better only than Windigos only in that their summoners are "only" incentivized to kill to keep them around rather than outright obligated to like the latter.

 

[DelightedOne]

I consider Ash-Ghouls existing at all to be fundementally terrible, better only than Windigos only in that their summoners are "only" incentivized to kill to keep them around rather than outright obligated to like the latter.

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Considering Windigos can literally cause an apocalipse you are right to think they are worse.

Ash-Ghouls are still Wolf level bad, just not as bad as the Windigos.

 

[Shaper47]

And frankly Outer Circles are important. They provide the ability to do more actions.

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Won't they just be a hintchaser version two?

Which really doesn't compare to a Velvet ap.

 

[Greymere]

Baldomare's cutie mark is the actual straight up Lantern. There's no interpretation where Velvet is special. Occultists having cutie marks that can be made to fit with the lore's symbols in hindsight is a very different thing than unambiguous "this is a Lore mark". Velvet's cutie mark is a normal cutie mark that can have associations made in hindsight.

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...Baldomare doesn't have a cutie mark. She has a Brand. Which, as we were just reminded, are not the same thing.

 

[ses]

...Baldomare doesn't have a cutie mark. She has a Brand. Which, as we were just reminded, are not the same thing.

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Okay then. Windy Flakes' cutie mark is a snowflake, which is far more unambigiously the symbol of his primary Lore than a book with butterflies around it is the symbol of Moth.

There would also be more personal matters to look into. For example, there would be probably a vote to determine Soft's place in the cult, and how much you want her involved (with more involvement meaning a happier Soft, but I can see a part of Velvet recoiling at giving her more Wolf exposure, for obvious reasons).

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I want to make Soft happy, and more crucially I want Soft to actually know what the heck she's doing with the Lores instead of being led around with no idea what's going on. She's been being kept in the dark for far too long already. We should have her actually learn the Lores properly and take an active leadership role as a true and proper Confidant for real.